On suicidal thoughts.
I have recurring suicidal thoughts every now and then. It never seems any easier to acknowledge and then let them pass by. I've never gotten to that stage of actually planning out and executing a plan.
I thought time would help remedy away these intrusive thoughts; but, the idea seems more and more appealing as time goes by. Instead of finding life more worthwhile, it seems as if the opposite is happening. It's really getting to me these days around. That I can't find anything in life worth living for.
I used to think that I'd find something in life and things would just go on, however, I resorted to drastic measures in the past to keep on going. I became a drug addict. Fast forward four years, and I have now more or less quit that addiction; but, the issue persists.
The root of my malaise presented itself to me in a dream a long time ago. I remember quite vividly how my depression and subsequent suicidal thought manifested.
Picture this bleak lake where a giant sea monster resides. In this lake, the monster, which looks most like a giant octopus resides. I figured out a way to defeat this monster octopus. I can't fight with it because it is too strong. The only way to defeat it is to wait for the water from the lake to evaporate until the sea monster can't thrive on anything anymore. This can take a long time; but, I don't see how else to beat it. You might be laughing at this point; but, I trust what my dreams tell me, and this is something that stuck.
How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it?
Cheers.
I thought time would help remedy away these intrusive thoughts; but, the idea seems more and more appealing as time goes by. Instead of finding life more worthwhile, it seems as if the opposite is happening. It's really getting to me these days around. That I can't find anything in life worth living for.
I used to think that I'd find something in life and things would just go on, however, I resorted to drastic measures in the past to keep on going. I became a drug addict. Fast forward four years, and I have now more or less quit that addiction; but, the issue persists.
The root of my malaise presented itself to me in a dream a long time ago. I remember quite vividly how my depression and subsequent suicidal thought manifested.
Picture this bleak lake where a giant sea monster resides. In this lake, the monster, which looks most like a giant octopus resides. I figured out a way to defeat this monster octopus. I can't fight with it because it is too strong. The only way to defeat it is to wait for the water from the lake to evaporate until the sea monster can't thrive on anything anymore. This can take a long time; but, I don't see how else to beat it. You might be laughing at this point; but, I trust what my dreams tell me, and this is something that stuck.
How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it?
Cheers.
Comments (108)
I suspect we all have our demons. The ultimate demon seems to be the demon of nothingness; the void of meaninglessness. For me that demon is always there, lurking. I keep it at bay by virtue of what interests me, what I care about. What I care about constitutes the meaning of my life, and I acknowledge that the less it has to do with my own merely selfish interest, the more meaningful it may become. At times, when my thoughts and feelings tend towards depression, I feel the anxiety that the demon might rise up and devour me. But I have learned not to feed depressive thoughts and feelings, and to keep the demon of nihilism beyond the periphery of my active concern. Life is neither meaningless nor meaningful per se, but only insofar as you think and feel it is either, or more or less, one or the other.
Sorry, I don't think I can provide much insight on interpreting your dreams.
Fascinating dream ..,plenty of Freudian possibilities.
Oh, dear. I can't imagine how you can fight with nothingness. Become one with it?
It would be hard to make a delinearization between whether it is emotional or rational. I guess, going from some cognitive/biological point of view I would have to wholeheartedly say that it is emotional. Once it became emotional, how one can cope with it can then be treated by rational thoughts. One can then accept it or fight with it, depending on their personality and such.
Quoting Samuel Lacrampe
I find it hard to just go on with such a proposal and say that because one assumes that life is meaningless, including the statement itself, that that would automatically make you depressed or rather professing a depressed attitude.
Quoting Samuel Lacrampe
Ok, let's assume that it is emotional. How have you tackled this beast?
I didn't mean to suggest that I "fight with it"; it's more like the opposite, ignoring it or peripheralizing it. I am not suggesting that nothingness is a special case at all, I tend to think that all fears and anxieties, when you boil them down, are on account of the possibility of nothingness.
But I guess there is a sense in which anxieties and depression, in fact any kind of negative self-concern, may be overcome, and your life may even be radically transformed, by becoming nothing to yourself (selfless). That is not achieved by many people, though, I would think.
Don't take this as offensive; but, isn't feeling nothingness a good thing? I would rather feel nothingness rather than angst, anxiety, and anger over incompetence with dealing with depression.
Why would I take offense? You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I have said. By fear of nothingness I mean fear of death, fear of failure, fear of being insignificant, fear of life and oneself being devoid of meaning.
So "angst, anxiety and anger over incompetence" I would say all boil down to fear of nothingness. At least that's way I interpret those things in my own experience.
I don't quite get the logic; but, I understand what you are saying.
Can you say what puzzles you about it?
Well, now that I think about, when one feels anything it is about something, something that they aren't at the moment. I guess nothingness fits in there somewhere.
However, having a lack of desire to live or just lack of desire, in general, seems distinct here. Am I getting you right?
Do you mean that feeling one's own inadequacy could be expressed as a feeling of becoming nothing rather than becoming something?
First check: Do you have stomach-related problems? I recently read a book that talks about how the stomach health plays a critical role in our emotional state, and I can attest from experience. I am talking about evident stomach problems, not the occasional one from drinking too much. If yes, then I would look no further for the cause. I can then provide what I know on this.
If no, then there is another solution I can offer, but will wait for the answer before giving more details on that one.
Sorry you're troubled by recurrent thoughts of suicide. Think about something else (Seriously... don't dwell on those kinds of thoughts.) While it's good that you are not making plans, it's also not pleasant to have these kinds of thoughts. On the other hand, many people probably think about suicide sometimes, and not always because they feel bad. One hears about suicides, one speculates about it. Do you find the idea of suicide somewhat attractive?
I've also heard that NSAIDs have an impact on moods or depressive feelings. I find NSAIDS, especially ibuprofen and naproxen, to be far more effective for pain relief than aspirin or Tylenol with codeine (which I have taken for severe headaches).
Quoting Web MD
How large a dose are you taking? Some people have had significant side effects from NSAIDs involving blood pressure, kidney function, heart function, digestive tract irritation, and so on. The side effects seem to be dose-related--the higher the dose, the more likely the side effects.
Hope brighter thoughts occur to you soon.
My stomach seems to be fine. Let me know what else I can learn.
Yes, and that is the problem. I am not sure if suicide can be addressed without the big elephant in the room that is depression.
I thought that I'd get used to it or just learn to cope with persistent depression. I also know the range of depression, where one just doesn't even want to get out of the bed and the other even worse where one tries to do something about it; but, fails and ends up with the same result of being in square one.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I take 250 mg of Aleve a day. Sometimes two in the morning. I haven't noticed anything terrible in terms of side effects.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Hope so too, just that the depression always seems to loom there besides the other stuff.
• It first gives a rational explanation of what an emotional feeling is, its purpose, and limitations.
• It then differentiates between a legitimate feeling (one that should be there) and an illegitimate feeling (one that should not be there).
• It then establishes a strong parallel between an illegitimate emotional feeling and what is called a 'physical allergy'. Thus 'illegitimate emotional feelings' can be called 'emotional allergies'.
• It then describes a method to eliminate emotional allergies, based on a similar proven method designed to eliminate physical allergies.
It has worked for me and hope it works for others too. I am aware that it takes a bit of homework to get the benefit of the solution, and so if I can provide any help along the way, just let me know.
Wow, thank you, kind Sir, for providing so much information on the topic. I'll give it a read and post whatever questions I have about it.
I have studied CBT in the past. I wonder how much in parallel I may find in your method.
You've seen a psychiatrist about depression? Personally, I'd consider persistent suicidal thinking (even without planning) a serious symptom if it were myself. I know that many people have their doubts about anti depressant medication -- as well they should, because any given Rx might not work for any given individual. Just because Zoloft doesn't help, doesn't mean Effexor won't, and just because neither Zoloft and Effexor didn't work, doesn't mean that Seroquel or Cymbalta won't.
I always tell people to see a psychiatrist rather than a family doctor, because--while a family doctor can prescribe antidepressants and might hit on the right one, psychiatrists are usually better at the problem solving process of finding the one that works. They just have more practice at it, and just as people don't go to ophthalmologists for a broken leg, one should go to a psychiatrist for depression.
Major depression is a bigger deal than minor depression, especially if minor depression is rooted in practical solvable problems. CBT alone might work for minor depression; it seems to me that major depression needs more.
I've put up with depression for a long time -- 30 years. Some of the drugs we tried did not help much. There were many years where I just wasn't functioning well. For the last 7 years I've felt pretty good, and part of that was a change in life circumstances. Sometimes those can be engineered, and sometimes not.
I do wish you maximum success in dealing with this difficult stuff.
I read through most of what you wrote and think there is some solid thinking behind the idea of treating some rampant emotions as akin to an involuntary allergic response seen in people with overactive immune systems. However, I don't see what can be done non-pharmaceutically for the majority of cases that are over empathetic or such. It seems to be a problem only pharmaceutical drugs can address. I'll meditate over the whole theory some more and see what I can come up with.
Yes, I do see a county psych, which seems to be the best of all psychs one can pick as there's no incentive to overmedicate an individual. I agree that it has helped. I do not think new medication is the thing for me. At the moment Zoloft has been working well and like the equanimity that it causes in me. I see to feel happier on it rather than not. I decided that it's best to give no meds a try and will see if I can taper off the Zoloft if possible. I don't have much trust in psych meds for the matter. I used to be a different person before I was put on some SSRI's and different meds. I think, amicable would be a good word to describe how I was. Nowadays, the numbness from the Zyprexa and Zoloft is just too much. I really want to see how I feel off of meds. It's been so long and the desire to feel again is really appealing.
Quoting Bitter Crank
The depression comes in waves. The most profound aspect that bothers me is a lack of desire or will to do things in my best interest. It's a rather Buddhist type of depression if you care for a laugh, just without the compassion part. I'll be frank, I have a more sinister condition (hate the use of 'disorder') that has negative symptoms that are very hard to target and deal with. I've tried amphetamines in the past, and hence the source of my drug habit (never abused, smoked, plugged, snorted, or IV'd). Rather the habit was fostered as a psychological dependence in terms of using the go pills to get motivated and working. It has worked in the past; but, those Schedule I or II drugs are scheduled for a reason. Ehh, to be honest, I don't think I would have gotten into a UC school if it weren't for Adderall, it's just that potent of a drug. Military physicians were told to give soldiers during WWII amphetamines because it didn't cause them to perform any better; but, believe that they were performing better and be more willing to pull the trigger when needed. Stalin supposedly resorted to alcohol to treat general malaise.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I've whined and complained in the past here and over at the old PF about living with mummy, working, etc. I've kind of passed that hump and gotten used to being company to a person that truly loves you. It was growing pains. I have doodled with the idea of changing environments and going to some European country; but, working as a janitor or such doesn't appeal me since I still have the door open to go back to UC and complete that degree. It's just that I don't see how I'll get the job done (and I know it needs to be done) if I keep on feeling this way while the clock is ticking mercilessly away. A rather pathetic situation to be in not beliving in yourself. Low self-esteem factors in; but, I'm not a fan of the esteem movement. People have had it harder and gotten through worse and came out on top despite such circumstances. I just suffer from a lack of... whatever - to want to get the job done. Getting off the numbing pills and stuff seem to me to be the right direction forward. I mean, if ya can't feel anything then you're kinda incapacitated by default.
I have occasionally occuring suicidal thoughts. For me it's more of a thought of "I'd rather not be alive. I'd rather not exist". But it hasn't yet manifested into any actual actions. I've always felt that I'm too selfish to kill myself; I'm too concerned with physical pleasures, with feelings and emotions, with my own ego, no matter how toxic these things are.
I've been struggling with minor and major depression over the past 14 years or so. The major depression has increased recently, to the point of spending days at a time (when I'm off work) doing nothing. My sleep schedule is totally out of whack. I sometimes abuse several addictions. Addiction in relation to depression and suicidal thoughts seems to be a complex relationship, as far as I can tell; one isn't necessarily the cause of the other. They're interdependent.
You speak of a monster in a lake; my monster often manifests in dreams as a wolf or similar beast lurking beneath the floorboards, or waiting outside. I also used to have a recurring dream of a massive serpent, the size of a tree, on a twilit archipelago-esque island (lol...?). But the serpent was beautiful, not terrifying. There are other dreams that I connect to depression; I could go on. Many different recurring scenes where I'm totally alone walking through a landscape (the only person in the world). I also have sleep paralysis.
From a philosophical perspective, I think it's important to recognize that there's a state in which a human person may deem it better to end one's life, than to continue with life. There's a mental or spiritual state or whatever where the individual decides that life is no longer worth living. Looking at this as a mental "sickness" is a good starting point, to deal with the problem; to begin talking about the issue. But I don't think it's the end point. A physical sickness only exists within the world of physical reality, but a mental or emotional or spiritual sickness doesn't carry over properly; the metaphor doesn't carry fully over. I think this is significant because it bucks the typical materialist/scientistic trend of assuming that survival, or pleasure, or avoidance of pain or discomfort, or whatever, is the ultimate. It's not. And of course, ultimately, the reason this is important...is that life is worth living. Otherwise, the distinction wouldn't even matter; otherwise, the philosophical significance of suicide would be nil. If life did not, in fact, matter, then no one would even be asking the question. Indeed, the suicides of countless people attest to the very fact that life is meaningful. This is key. Clinical psychology can't get us to this point.
Question, thank you for sharing, I have a deep respect for those that feel strong enough to talk about such personal subjects as one may eventually raise the subconscious horrors hidden deep within them and start to make sense of it, articulate it so that you become the one in control.
And that is the point, this lack of control, subject to your fears that you are 'stuck' and spend your entire life hiding from this monster as you wait for the water to evaporate, this monster that you have never seen, that you seem certain exists and yet has never actually threatened you, taking away the time given to you until you find yourself a whole lifetime later as having never actually lived, old and frail as you crawl out of the cave to witness this monumental moment to find the only dead in the middle of the lake is the dead version of a younger you that never lived.
The only monster is fear. If you take the chance to defeat this monster, a chance to think of proper strategies and possibilities, a chance that may mean death, what exactly is the difference between that type of death to the one of waiting your entire life as you hide fearfully? Such indifference to your own existence is death, perhaps a much more horrendous death than being killed by a monster.
Sometimes when we are faced with adversity, when we are faced with vicious people, people lying and deceiving, slandering and hating and yet all the while boasting and pretending that they are good people, the idea of ever defeating such people is just impossible. You end up with a choice of either becoming a monster yourself or feeling defeated. “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you."
You will find that we seem to be completely oblivious that there were no choices in the first place. I used to dream of running away from leopards, always fearfully running and hiding, and indeed comparatively in my life that was exactly what I was doing. I soon found the courage to see that these leopards were not leopards at all, but rather just a horde of feral cats. Not easy to simply casually walk past, but certainly not life-threatening that I realised I imagined their power. I wasted years on an imaginary fear. It was not them, but me, and so I defeated the monsters by having the courage to love and care for myself despite what other have done to me. It is choice, the choice to live and take control, to stop running and turn and face the illusion that fear causes us to believe in. When I eliminated the toxic people from my life, set goals for myself, planned ahead and lived by my moral code and principles without relying on anyone, there has been nothing but good things happening that consistently gets better. I have some great close friends, an amazing job, I travel and write and always on adventures.
A small octopus can appear as a frightening, giant monster octopus, to a child. Is this childish fear still within you, controlling you that you feel disillusioned, subject to a power that you cannot grasp within yourself and so you feel defeated. The courage to take control of your life by getting to the root cause of this fear is not easy, it is just as threatening as a giant monster octopus, but doing so you stand a chance of living. This chance is much better than dying after a whole lifetime of fear without never actually having lived, as long as you are safe.
Quoting Question
Quoting Question
Accept it, not embrace it, basically Jung.
To me suicide has never occured. I think I'm just too arrogant to even consider it.
Quoting Noble Dust
Jung argues that serpents in dreams represent lust and rejection.
But I'm mostly oblivious about Jung, the idea is that Jung is not oblivious about psychological afflictions such as depression.
My view on the topic is so simple to the point of being simplistic: depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly.
So, depression is classified as a mood disorder. But our moods (read 'emotions') are extremely influential to our thinking.
Are people functioning more poorly now (now = the present and back... 50 years) than they functioned before? And if so, why?
Are economics the problem--Too many people pursuing too few opportunities?
Is life becoming too complicated for people to manage? Too many options, too many details?
Is (American) society deteriorating -- becoming too incoherent, not cohesive enough, too chaotic?
Is the cause external to individuals: easy access to drugs, credit, too much exposure to media, etc.?
Is "the family" failing its function of preparing children to succeed in this society?
People say all of the above, none of the above, don't know, impossible to tell, it's the same today as it has always been... But it seems to me that a really significant number of people are doing poorly in this society -- and not because of major mental illnesses, which don't seem to be increasing in frequency.
Opportunities abound. Seriously. But many people are not willing to put in the effort, and go through the fear, anxiety, etc. required to take the opportunities. They also lack discipline, will, and intelligence.
Many people expect to find a job - why? - because they think they're entitled to it. Nobody is entitled to anything. But yet many people wait on the state - give me this, give me that, make the economy better, clean my street, etc. Bullshit.
The reason why it seems like there are too few opportunities is because everyone is copying everyone else (why? because it feels safe to do that - you have to handle a lot of anxiety when you do something completely different and out of the ordinary). Everyone wants a job with Apple, because Apple pays the best. Of course it's going to be fucking hard to get that - everyone is after it. You have to look for hidden treasures that others, in their irrational mania, are ignoring.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I feel people have no direction in life, and expect and desire at all costs to enjoy life. This attachment to the enjoyment of life, instead of to more objective goals - such as building a family, spiritual enlightenment, building a business, etc. - leads to chaos. The fake media also promotes a fake vision of life, and instills fake values into people - that's also a big problem. I think their desire to have fun and enjoy life is what ensures the destruction of most people. Survival comes at a cost - discipline, hard work, and intelligence. Failing time and time again, and trying again and again and again. Not once, or twice, or three times - but every day, 365 days a year, for years on years.
Who cares what's good for you eh? That's a monstrous attitude.
No wonder the poor monster has nightmares about you.
No wait, are you the monster having nightmares, or are you the nightmare having monsters? Are you the selfish git that wants what's in your best interest, or the self-condemning git that doesn't? It's all so confusing. Will the real Question please?
Quoting Question
Ask your monster questions, what is it trying to do, what does it want, is it really your enemy? Try and become its servant, it will reward you. Killing yourself kills the monster, that's significant. But don't kill the monster, it's your best friend.
The fucking nerve of these lazy sons of bitches -- wanting to enjoy life. Take them out and shoot them!
Quoting Agustino
Perhaps opportunities abound, but not everyone is able to identify them. Not everyone is able to exploit the opportunities they identify. I would say many unsuccessful and unhappy people have lacked the knowledge (from an early age) to identify a bona fide opportunity. I blame ignorance of how the world works more than laziness.
Quoting Agustino
Projects of this sort require a foundation of skills and knowledge. If one is ignorant of what the required skills and knowledge are, they can't develop a plan to obtain them. Again, ignorance.
Quoting Agustino
True enough, but someone must be raised in an environment where discipline, hard work, and intelligence are fostered. Reaching adulthood without these traits, without a foundation of skills and knowledge, and ignorance of how to identify a practical opportunity (one which can actually be exploited) leaves one pretty much screwed.
So, astute, but poorly prepared adults can put 2 and 2 together and understand that they need to get what is needed, and some people rehabilitate themselves, even if they were raised to become economic cripples.
I can cite my own case: even though I did OK during my working years, there were times I made strategic errors that many of my peers didn't. For instance, as the AIDS crisis expanded in the late 1980s, smart people abandoned the non-profits that were first responders and moved on to city/county/and state programs which would be doing the heavy lifting over the long run. I stayed glued to to the non-profits. By the time I figured out that I should jump ship, the city/county/and state boats had filled up.
OR, I should have moved on to a new problem -- which I did, but didn't find something even remotely as interesting as HIV and AIDS. I would liked to have worked with tuberculosis, but unfortunately there were not enough cases around to support much work with TB.
“Allow it to be reasonable, to kill oneself; allow it to be against reason to resign one’s mind to life: surely it is still a savage and inhumane act. And it ought not to gratify one more, nor should one choose, to be in accord with reason, and a monster, than in tune with nature, and a man.”
Remember how Nietzsche told us not to become monsters?
Leopardi is, in my opinion, a proper moderate between the two extremes of Schopenhauerean asceticism and Nietzschean vitality.
>:O "We are not here to enjoy ourselves" - Ludwig Wittgenstein
(Also, no need to shoot them. They're already shooting themselves by their terrible choice).
Quoting Bitter Crank
That may be true, but I've encountered many people to whom, for example, I presented an opportunity, and who have refused it because of the risk involved, instead preferring the safer, but less rewarding and easier path. I'm not sure if that's just because of fear, or because of laziness - but perhaps both. Lack of self-belief and self-esteem is a major cause.
In addition, most people have a sort of crab mentality, and want everyone to be average in terms of knowledge, capabilities, and achievements - just like them. That's why philosophy is seen as snobbish for example.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Okay, but what about those people who are told - these are the skills you need, and this is how you can learn them - and who still don't stick with it? They are clearly either (1) afraid, or (2) lazy - or perhaps (3), they don't believe it's true - OR a combination of the three. Or perhaps they just don't want to sacrifice "fun" ;)
Quoting Bitter Crank
Common, people can learn by themselves. I don't think I've learned ANY of the practical skills I'm making use of these days except by myself. I lived in a very protective family environment, so everything I've learned afterwards, was achieved through my own self devoted study. And trust me -
my parents literarily didn't allow me to do anything as a child - I didn't even buy anything by myself, since I had no money given to me as a child. I would only play close to my house at the countryside, because I wasn't allowed to travel far like other kids. The very first time I started moving farther from home when I moved to the city I was shit scared - but I forced myself through it. The very first time I moved to UK I was shit scared too - but I forced myself through it. So how did I learn practical skills? While people at 18 were smoking shit, partying and drinking, I was working, studying, reading, etc. I worked. Day after day - and I'm still working day after day today. When all else fails, who will people come to? Me - because I'm the only one sitting on solid ground. Then they'll complain how "unlucky" they have been, how their wife cheated on them, how they got fired, etc. etc. - NO WONDER! There's a price to be paid for stupidity and complacency.
True there are tragedies and bad luck. But the tragedies and bad luck are much rarer than we usually think. Most people do it with their own hands. Marry the wrong person because he was a cool guy, had a nice car, you were attracted to him, or whatever bullshit - then no wonder he cheats on you. How is that any wonder?! Really it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Or the guy who marries the prettiest girl in highschool that every guy wanted to be with, and who loved clubbing, smoking weed and having fun - then he wonders that she cheats on him! >:O >:O Jesus Christ...
That's why when I hear things like this I don't have much sympathy because I've struggled to learn almost everything by myself, with little to no help from those around me. Quite the contrary in fact, my external environment has often pulled me down. I had no skills of identifying a practical opportunity - at least none that I was taught by someone else - and I forced myself to learn it. It was nothing but pure, cold self-belief that allowed me to pull through. That time when you sit alone, and alone plot without any external aid, knowing that you lack the skills, but determined to go through, and trusting in your own destiny. The time when you feel pain, but push through the pain nevertheless. It's the will that makes it possible - it's nothing but the will to persevere despite the fear and trembling.
This pessimistic claptrap, no skills, no education, etc. is nothing but excuses. People need to stop making excuses, and then go to drink another bottle of fucking wine. No wonder they're still fucked - the wine ain't gonna pull them out of the hole! I mentioned the idea of enjoying life that is the problem before. It is the problem. Once one has given up that idea, it's easy to push oneself to the limit, endure pain, and do what's necessary - there's nothing holding you back anymore - no lost opportunities, no nothing. Just freedom to act. To climb out of the hole.
Schopenhauerian. :P
Depression as a mood is different from one who is suffering from a mental illness like major depression.
Quoting Agustino
If I graduate college with a degree that can't land me a proper job, sure, I'll still have boundless opportunities to be a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper. But, y'know, FUCK that. I feel that if I'm educated to do x or y in field z, then I'm entitled to a job in that sector, not to work some piss shit job like I could have done without a degree beforehand.
Quoting Agustino
Objective goals like those can be just as chaotic and disappointing for people,
though.
Quoting Agustino
>:o
Quoting Agustino
Seeing as life itself is a tragedy, I don't see how this is true.
Have you experienced major depression?
I think so, inequality has been rising since the 70's or 80's, and such, people are working late into their lives and automation is taking away jobs contrary to what some people say. Social safety nets are on the chopping block. Sure, some conservative will tell you that you can now afford a great OLED TV nowadays and enjoy some of the lowest food costs; but, that is irrelevant when you can't climb the social ladder. Trickle down has yet to work for the matter.
It's an oppressive and overbearing friend, I can add.
This isn't how depression works. It's not something the person is in control of. It's a sickness.
Some people are just more risk averse than others, and most people are more risk tolerant for one kind of risk than another. Some people will take great risk in athletics (climbing dangerous mountains) but are totally risk averse when it comes to money. I think risk tolerance/risk aversion is determined biologically -- at least to some degree.
Quoting Agustino
No one can argue that there are no lazy, no stupid, no ambitionless, no too risk averse to try anything people. They are out there. But, Agustino, most people do not excel, do not exceed expectations, do not achieve miracles. They just get along fairly well, grow old, and die. People like you excel first, achieve miracles, then get old and die. Of course, you haven't gotten old yet; time will tell whether you die first.
If Ludwig didn't enjoy himself while he was here, I see no need to follow suit.
I think it is to a certain extent, despair could swallow any one of us if we let it. Some people just never developed good coping skills, that's where counseling can be helpful. If the problem is too severe to be treated by therapy alone then medication is probably something to consider. If a person hasn't experienced any horrific tragedies or traumas or are facing some fate worse than death and they're contemplating suicide because of some general existential despair, well then they're just blowing life way out of proportion. They're taking it all far too seriously.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Talking about correlation, I'm the under the impression that consumerism is at its height and that people now demand that which there's no genuine offer for: meaning. They crave importance, they seek purpose, yet they never address themselves, after all the solutions must be out there just waiting to be shopped.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I think you meant fortunately* but I guess to each their own.
Quoting Agustino
Basically, the work ethic capitalism is based upon. But what I don't understand is, what's necessary? Making a living? To what end? Staying alive? That's not an end in itself.
You may find meaning in diligence but I suspect that is precisely because others don't and so I find you blaming them ironical.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Implying one can choose to be born.
First there's nothing wrong with working as a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper if that's where you have to start. What's all this pursuit of status and pride because of a fucking college degree?
The truth is that a degree means almost nothing these days - university isn't even that hard anymore. It's not like you graduated a university in Newton's day - no you graduated a University in the day and age when it is full of drunkards, druggies, and partying - everyone knows that. Everyone knows that finishing university is nothing big anymore - it's easy, if even these crazy party goers can finish it pfff - give me a break. And rightfully so - everyone is getting a degree. If you're doing what everyone is doing you're competing against everyone, what are the chances of winning that way? How are you any different from them, why should anyone pick you and not them? How do you stand out, what makes you unique?
A degree is only helpful in one situation. If you want to get a job in a big organisation. Then a degree is needed, not because it shows you have the skills (cause it probably doesn't show that - a degree is skill faking quite often) but rather because the people in charge of employing you need a way to justify hiring you in case you do a shit job. Then they can tell the higher up managers/bosses, "oh well, he had a degree, his paper work was all okay, he was certainly the most qualified, I couldn't have done any better!" - save their own bottoms. That's when a degree is needed. Most of this world is built on forgery and fakery, not on intelligence and skill anyway - it's all smoke and mirrors, because people are damn lazy and don't put heart in their work - they just want social status and prestige, being seen well by others. What did Napoleon say - "a soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". But how did Napoleon himself think? "A throne is only a bench covered with velvet"
But, if you seek employment with smaller companies, where the owner is directly in charge, if s/he's a smart guy/girl and does the hirings themselves, then s/he won't care whether or not you have a degree or no degree. Only one question will matter - can you do a great job?
And getting a job isn't your only alternative. You could either work as self-employed (as a contractor or freelancer) or start your own business in some field you know about. The possibilities are all there, you just have to look for them and take them. You aren't entitled to a job in any field, regardless of your education. There is no entitlement in this world, you can either provide value to others, or you can't.
Along with laziness, drug use, and partying. I wonder why.
I doubt that. The experience of despair swallowing oneself is not a universal experience. And no, I'm not playing the martyr here; this should be common sense. When faced with despair, the average person reverts back to the traditions, people, and comforts that give their lives meaning, and this is, as far as I can tell, perfectly sound. Those of us who can't do so have nothing to revert back to, and so we take a look at the abyss we find ourselves in front of. Not everyone get's here. There's not even anything dramatic about it; it's just a fact of life.
Quoting Sivad
The problem here is this mindset places the impetus on the person to develop those skills. The reality is that context, environment, is what enables or prevents someone from developing those skills. This means the onus is not specifically on them to make such developments, at least during developmental stages.
Quoting Sivad
A "tough love" approach to the problem of suicide, like you're using here, is incredibly inappropriate. Tough love is appropriate when dealing with someone unwilling to face the cold hard reality of their situation. "Soft love", if you will (as the alternative to tough love), is appropriate when dealing with someone unable to even acknowledge their own self-worth. Survey any number of depressives or suicidals, and 99.9% will tell you they fit the latter category. Telling someone at risk of suicide that they're "taking it all far too seriously" has a high potential of that person taking you far too seriously, and ending their life.
What's the point of enjoying yourself BC, you'll end up in the same grave, and it will be as if the enjoyment never existed. Rather do something (or try to do something) you can be proud of, and be an upstanding character. That's all that can be asked of life.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I agree, but risk tolerance can be changed if you force yourself to undertake more risks.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Well, based on my experience, people who work a lot, live a lot - and people who don't, don't live a lot. I remember reading Schopenhauer who said that life is movement - to live is to move, and act. Death follows suite after one ceases activity and lives in physical and mental sloth, because the body pulls back - it doesn't need to devote energy to the efficiency of its processes anymore, and thus it returns to dust.
Quoting Noblosh
Nothing is necessary. But let's see - would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? In the long run, one man will rise amongst the stars and live amongst the gods, and the other one will disappear through the gates of Hades. Who will you be? Death is coming anyway - how will you meet it? Maybe you can hear the footsteps - even now, approaching. It's coming - and you can't escape. Will it find you snuggled up in a corner, begging for mercy - or will it find you fighting to your last breath, determined through sheer will not to give death the victory of crushing your spirit?
Try living in NYC. Those who work a lot party a lot; they don't do much else than these two things. They may eventually end up in a clinic, or if they're extremely lucky, they'll come out on top of their sector. Those who don't work as much...get suffocated by the city's workaholism, and have to leave, move in with a parent...etc. Not because of laziness: because of the prevailing environment of workaholism.
Quoting Agustino
I'd rather not be remembered at all. The entire premise here is as empty as the materialism you critique.
No my friend, it wasn't workaholism that destroyed them. It was their lust, greed, shamelessness and sloth - you were right in saying that those who "work a lot" there also "party a lot". It's the partying that killed them. The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. It's always been fake work, for a J.P. Morgan or some shit. Useless work. Wasting time in an office. 50% of "work-time" is wasted by most people. It's, as I said before, all smoke and mirrors. Drop the smoke and mirrors.
Quoting Noble Dust
So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it.
Do you not consider workaholism a problem?
Quoting Agustino
Ok, you're making a distinction here between - what? - pure labor, on the one hand, and work that has a spiritual purpose? My critique was based on a simple reading of the word "work". For instance, you recently referenced working for McDonalds in a positive light. I could think of any number of reasons why working for McD's is morally reprehensible.
Of course I agree with you that working for Chase, or some such, is morally reprehensible. The greed involved is well known. But I'm talking about the New York City ethos in general, which involves countless industries. I would venture to guess you don't have much first hand experience in understanding this ethos. You're critique here is very one-sided. What about those who work in the publishing industry (allowing you to read the books you read), or the art world (setting the bar on what is and isn't art, as ridiculous as it is?), not to mention the bodega workers who work 12 hour days 7 days a week, because they know nothing else than this? I'm saying this as someone who lives here, and has my own harsh criticisms of the ethos here.
Quoting Agustino
Sometimes life seems a gift, other times, it seems a curse.
Furthermore, you began by using language of "remembered by", and now you switch to begging the question of "throwing life away". So it seems you're equating the value of life with being "remembered". This is what I have issue with.
I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's.
Quoting Noble Dust
Trust me - London isn't much different. I understand it. That's why I don't live in such cities.
Quoting Noble Dust
No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work.
Quoting Noble Dust
No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free.
Quoting Noble Dust
The industry they work in is irrelevant. It's the hypocrisy of working for status, fast cars, women, etc. that is in question.
Quoting Noble Dust
A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust?
Quoting Noble Dust
People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. People who care just about themselves and enjoying life - they are not remembered - they send themselves straight to the fires of hell.
In reality it's entirely up to the individual to seek help and develop those skills, it's on them to learn to deal with life. I'm not saying it's fair, life rarely is, but the only people that can be helped are those that are willing and able to help themselves. I'm not trying to be harsh or cold, if some people are beyond help then I feel for them, there's no judgement or condemnation on my part, but it is ultimately up to the individual in crisis because nobody can do it for them.
Quoting Noble Dust
This isn't an area I know much about, I'm just spouting off on the internet, so anyone in crisis shouldn't take anything I say to heart. Contrasting my small problems with the grand sweep of the human journey and the scale of the cosmos is one of my coping mechanisms, it helps me put everything in perspective and carry on, but if that's counterproductive for someone in crisis then in the future I'll just keep that to myself because I really don't want to nudge anyone in the wrong direction.
So the bank teller at Chase wouldn't be able to do a similarly upstanding job?
For instance, if working at McD's is positive only in the sense of "moving up", then when exactly does the moving up become reprehensible? Once you start working at Chase, or what? What exactly is this goal of moving through the ranks?
Quoting Agustino
???
Quoting Agustino
Once again...someone working for Chase (or more accurately), Wall Street, may have these aspirations. And that's not a good thing.
But let me try to spell it out more succinctly: There is an ethos of workaholism in NYC. The impetus for this depends on many factors. That was my original argument here. Workaholism can be a problem; for instance, in a city like NYC. You can either dispute this claim by doing some research on workaholism in NYC, or assume that, as someone who lives here, I'm on to something. *shrug* I honestly don't even care
Quoting Agustino
..............
Quoting Agustino
No, but the worm may curse itself.
Quoting Agustino
Remembered...remembered...remembered...
He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons.
Quoting Noble Dust
Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. Moving up can help with that. What's the goal? Doing your duty.
Quoting Noble Dust
I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them.
Quoting Noble Dust
How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research?
Quoting Noble Dust
That's his problem.
Quoting Noble Dust
Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God?
Why say it, then? You clearly don't know much about suicide as a general topic if you consider this a valid response to your own ignorance.
Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions).
Quoting Agustino
So rising through the ranks would never lead to a position that would prohibit a "man" from doing his duty? So, doing a "man's" duty is to "do as much as possible"? Is that it?
Quoting Agustino
>:O (you're well acquainted with this smiley and it's uses, yes?)
Quoting Agustino
Here's a few links at random:
http://newyorkbehavioralhealth.com/workaholism
http://www.workaholics-anonymous.org/
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/your-money/getting-workaholics-to-stop-and-recharge.html
http://nyhre.org/events/a-bio-psychosocial-perspective-on-addiction-from-heroin-to-workaholism-by-dr-gabor-mate/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/nyc-workaholism-map_n_5336981.html
Quoting Agustino
Oh, so it's not your problem? What I meant by that is that some people have no sense of self-worth, based on their life experiences, which ties back to the topic of this thread. I'm one such person; one such worm. Say it to my face.
Quoting Agustino
No, I dispute the value of "being remembered".
I am 68 now and have had suicidal thoughts a few times in my life, but have never had the nerve to go through with it - or perhaps, the existential oomf to do it. Perhaps it's only curiosity as to what happens next that has kept me going. Life is still surprising.
When I look back, I did enjoy one series of 'talking cure' appointments, they gave me insight into myself and the expectations of others. Such things are chancey though, the woman was interesting and sympathetic and I don't know how I would have known that beforehand; I've also been through rubbish courses of cbt.
I do think that what has often brought me round is finding a focus on other things. At present I'm pretty highly focused on philosophy actually, I recommend that - There are a lot of Wittgenstein studies still to read!
But looking back, the acquisition of handy skills has stood me in good stead. 20 years ago I was an early adopter of the www - learnt a little html - and today I still do simple websites for people. When the world goes Off-key for me, I still like playing with bits of code, which is a whole other side of me that people who know me as an arty-fart don't expect.
Nine years ago I learnt the rudiments of bridge, and that's been another slow burner: something you can learn the basics of quickly, but which you can constantly enhance by practice and learning.
I hope these ideas don't seem too trivial. Part of the point of emphasising them is that for me the monster of Dark Pointlessness doesn't go away. I see him right across the room from me now. But I've found that if I dwell on his presence, the monstrosity can all too easily suck me in. Absorption in satisfying mental play is what makes me think the ugly fellow is merely amusing. My very best wishes to you.
No, not in the beginning at least. People at that level still take prestige though - they work at JPM while their friends work at McD's - in their local environment, they see themselves as kings.
Quoting Noble Dust
No, that is just impossible. Not even death can prohibit a man from doing his duty. It's just he himself who can do that.
Quoting Noble Dust
As much as possible for others and for the world - yes.
Quoting Noble Dust
I don't have time to check through all those links at the moment, if you could provide me a summary, like, workaholism leads to these problems:
•
•
•
•
I may be able to give you my opinion on that. That's if you want my opinion, if you don't, then no point bothering.
Quoting Noble Dust
So you'd rather have me fake that it is my problem? You'd rather have me lie to your face, and tell you that I can give you a sense of self-worth, so that you'll forever remain stuck and bound to me, like a slave and a sheep? Is that it then? Would you rather have me look at you as a child, who has no chance to rise up by himself - who is weak and helpless - maybe just what you see when you look in the mirror. But I don't - because I know there's more to you.
I'd rather tell you the truth. No one can give you a sense of self worth except yourself. When I say it's your problem - it is. Only you can solve it. It's useless to give this problem to me - I cannot help you. You blame your life experiences, this and that. Who gives a fuck? Wake up - you are not the prisoner of your past. All my life I've been an underdog, and I can honestly say that I've never lost, because I've never given up - I've never allowed others to define me, I helped myself, with the strength and capabilities that God has given me. Stop being a worm and cursing the gods for your weakness - you have been given ample means, a great intelligence - stop looking at what you don't have. I had so much stuck up against me - chronic depression, anxiety, almost failed in university, lived in a highly restrictive environment as a child, etc. etc. I don't have fingers to count the number of times I've failed and lost a battle - I don't have fingers to count the number of times I've been told I can't do it, the number of "authorities" who have told me I'll always be depressed, etc. What pulled me out? Sheer will, strength of spirit, and using the gifts and capabilities that God gave me. Certainly not crying about it, and blaming my past. I had never left the vicinity of my home until I was 16 - can you imagine? Stop crying about how hard you've had it. The rest of us didn't have an easy time either. Your happiness won't fall from the sky - God gave you the means, but he won't also give you the ends. It's up to you to achieve them - or fail - or die trying.
Quoting Noble Dust
Being remembered is just the result of providing value to the world. The value lies in what you've done - remembrance is just a sign.
Nah, I'm just a suicidal major depressive patient.
And yes, actually the last time I went to the bank, I had to do the bank teller's job for him. That's the kind of service I usually get. I usually see incapable people everywhere - people who don't give a fuck about their work, and just want a damn salary at the end of the month. If they themselves despise their work so much, why should anyone give a fuck about it?
Another example - I've changed four accountants this year - nobody has any clue what they're doing. Quite often I end up knowing more than my accountants. How is that possible? They went to school for it! They work every day in it. They have the degrees, and the fucking experience too. I studied and learned the law by myself just in one year - I'm not schooled in finance, law, etc. Why is it that I can pose problems to them that they cannot answer?! Why are they so damn stupid? Why does an uneducated brute like me know more than they do?! Why is it that I go to jail if something is wrong with my accounting procedures, and they get a free card?! Because they don't give a fuck about their job - they don't put heart in it - they don't focus on giving me value - doing great work for the sake of it. No - they just want my money - that's it. That's why they'll never make anything of themselves. It's all "me me me" - all crying about this and that, but never doing anything worthwhile. Their "work" isn't work - it's a joke. They can spend 8 hours at the office, talking with their colleagues, having fun, fucking around, flirting, and other bullshit - then they work for like 2 full hours. That's wasted time in my eyes. It is my firm conviction that God will give to those who deserve it - to those who can do great things with what they're given for others - whether this is in sharing knowledge, providing services/products, creating great art, achieving scientific breakthroughs, etc. - those who can't and don't put any effort in - they'll have everything taken away from them.
Could you ask him from me how he feels about his life? Does he feel it is a worthwhile project to be stalking a philosopher so persistently, or does he have his own monster of Dark Pointlessness, that he is desperately keeping at bay by busying himself this way?
Quoting Noble Dust
As in having no motivation to wake-up for days? Sure.
Quoting Agustino
I don't care for what legacy I leave behind, I really see no point in this 'post death concern'. I also don't seek to be "part of something greater than myself", 'something great enough for me' would suffice. At last, I don't appreciate your extreme view on life and work.
Quoting Agustino
I think we're beyond mythological metaphors. Sure, humans may colonize space, exploit the stars, do great things and become godlike but that wouldn't make them any more godly. I'll definitely be myself.
Quoting Agustino
With indifference. If it's coming anyway, there's no point in our encounter.
Quoting Agustino
Spare me your motivational speech already... Death is just an event, not a combatant. Again, there's no use in fearing that which can not be prevented, therefore in the face of death, I'm fearless, it's only logical.
Quoting Agustino
I'm sorry but this is the no true scotsman fallacy.
Quoting Agustino
Free from responsibility you mean. After all, the one whose sole purpose is to work is not concerned with the morality of it at all because work itself is absolute.
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
So... Who the heaven would waste their time to gift us? You're not being consistent.
Quoting Agustino
That's not a goal, goal implies ambition and ambition implies desire which you condemn.
Quoting Sivad
Oh, c'mon, don't try to rationalize helping others away. In reality, people depend upon each other.
To the 3 of you, it seems to me you've all developed a harmful locus of control, 2 of you internal, one external. If you would think about it logically, about what the social contract entails and what responsibility is, then you might just find it nonsensical.
Words. Let's see you do that.
Quoting Noblosh
Logical, but is it also real?! Logic alone does not move men. Logic alone does not dispel fear, nor does it give you the courage to live. Logic alone is vacuous and empty of any and all meaning - it is a sheer nothing. So no, I don't believe - if I am to take you at your word - that you are fearless because of logic. There are deeper and more powerful emotional reasons why you are fearless, if indeed you are.
Quoting Noblosh
Yes, if you add assumptions that I made no mention of, sure.
Quoting Noblosh
Pff, give me a break with these childhood posts. I have over 4000 posts here (and who knows how many thousands at the previous forum) - I'm well aware of what's a fallacy and what's not.
Quoting Noblosh
Right, and colonising space, exploiting stars, etc. isn't mythological >:O
Quoting Noblosh
Someone who loved you, even if you were a worm? There's no point hating a worm, but there is a point in loving a worm (or any other creature). There is an asymmetry there.
Quoting Noblosh
No, I don't condemn desire. I condemn desire for that which is evil. I don't understand why you've made the assumption I condemn desire.
Otherwise just cry and wait it out.
Quoting Agustino
Right now? No thanks!
Quoting Agustino
But is death real? We use logic to determine what's real and fearlessness is the logical stance in the face of the uncertainty of death. You can doubt me and my logic all you want, it doesn't make me not right.
Quoting Agustino
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just explaining you the implications of your statement and overall belief.
Quoting Agustino
Pooh-pooh, red herring and argument from authority.
Quoting Agustino
Of course they are. they have become myths in our culture.
Quoting Agustino
I see no point in either. A worm doesn't have the capacity to reciprocate.
Quoting Agustino
But that's arbirtary so I guess you condemn evil overall. But "Doing your duty." is still not a goal in itself.
Duty implies obligation, not desire. So to what end do you desire to accomplish your obligations?
No, we don't use logic to determine what's real at all. Logic doesn't tell us ANYTHING about what's real and what's not real. Logic helps us relate different facts of existence. It doesn't tell you if there's a pink elephant in your back garden right now, or if unicorns exist somewhere in the Universe. All knowledge comes from the senses, and is merely processed with logic. Is death real? Yes, at least in an ordinary sense, I've witnessed it, and I know it's real.
Quoting Noblosh
Your goal is whatever you choose. If you choose to be a righteous man, then your goal becomes your duty.
What? How?
Quoting Agustino
I'm not judging whether those jobs are good or bad in themselves, all I'm saying is that I should not "start" at those sorts of jobs after getting a degree which is supposed to land me a job that isn't burger flipping or trash collecting.
Quoting Agustino
This all is completely beside the point. If I get a degree, whether bachelors, masters, doctorate, in field x, and I end up washing dishes, then something is gravely wrong with the current system. But see, one cannot ignore this often times broken system because one must still get an education in order to have any reasonable hope of getting a job in the field that they'd like to work in.
Quoting Agustino
Major generalizing here. Please refrain.
Quoting Agustino
Uh, no.
Quoting Mongrel
As I've remarked on this forum before, often times suicidal people don't have the will to kill themselves, yet nor do they have the will to do things like art, astrology, or tarot. Which means that, ya, crying and waiting is usually about all many can do.
Actually I rather like the irony when he says he's the other fellow, not Lucifer, as in Randy Newman's 'That's why I love mankind (God's song)':
I burn down your cities
how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say
how blessed are we
You all must be crazy
to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind
I think I did that. Though probably much closer to the grave than you are (at 70+) I haven't ceased trying to achieve, and be an upstanding character.
You know the fable of the grasshopper and the ant. You are exhorting the grasshopper to be more like the dull drudgery drenched ant. But, you know, the drudgery of the ant doesn't survive the grave's doom any better than the joyful music of the grasshopper who won't survive winter. But what is better? joyful music in the summer or drudgery all the way to the grave?
Quoting Agustino
The same thing can be said for everything that humans are or might be. "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless." Ecclesiastes.
From one perspective, everything is meaningless. From a slightly different angle, the things of life have great meaning, whether they endure to the grave - or survive the grave - or not.
Why is a degree "supposed to land you a job"? Why do you think that?
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Not true. I work in web development, database management & recently online advertising - I have no degree in any of them. Completely self taught. I hold a degree in civil engineering - so yeah. People are misguidedly obsessed with degrees - that's why they get stuck at certain levels in society and never move beyond. A degree is a fucking piece of paper - means very little. I've probably seen more incapable people with degrees than without :P
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Well, why not?
*takes hat off* :) Yes, I respect you. You have your principles - not the same as mine, but at least you have the integrity of sticking to them - which is great!
Quoting Bitter Crank
Heh - I don't take work to be drudgery. It's rewarding doing something useful for others - including making music for that matter. I haven't said that making music in the street is better or worse than assembling parts in a manufacturing plant on the conveyor belt for example.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Yes, but I actually disagree with that part. There are some things - the spiritual things - which are not meaningless. Doing great work is a spiritual undertaking of benefiting your fellow men - that's something to be proud of, that not even death can take away (the fact you've done good).
But it does take a lot of will to keep crying and waiting you know. It's not like that's the easiest thing in the world either.
That's the whole point of getting a degree...................
Pretty clear you've not been knee deep in the American educational system your whole life if you deny this. You're just wrong, bro.
Quoting Agustino
Whoopty fucking do, Agu. Good luck getting a lot of jobs out there that require x, y, z certain tracks of education. Just because you've found yourself in a job without a degree that specifically pertains to that job, doesn't mean every and all degrees are pieces of paper that don't matter.
Quoting Agustino
Because I need to pay the bills. You come on out to the rust belt here in the midwest and show me how eazy peazy it is to just start a business and make bank.
I'll wait. Maybe in the fallow field a couple yards from my house, (Y)
Quoting Agustino
That's not what Mongrel meant, I don't think.
Who told you that? The corrupt educational system? Of course they did! That's the basic principle of selling anything, convincing your customer (read victim) that he needs your product or service - or otherwise he's fucked.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Oh I am well acquainted with educational systems through out the world. They all say the same shit. I too believed that shit, until I had my degree, and I saw that it really was no big deal. I wasn't actually smarter or more qualified to do anything because of my degree. I really understood that despite getting my degree with honors, I was completely unqualified in truth for any real work. I really felt I didn't know much. And so I understood that, despite them praising you and shit - university is really useless.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Oh, so you think I just magically landed in such a job, completely by accident right?
Quoting Heister Eggcart
>:O >:O >:O Unbelievable mate, you're complaining?! If I can start a business and make money in a fucking ex-communist country, full of corruption, bureaucracy and crooked laws which squash small businesses and help only big oligarchs, why can't you do it in the greatest capitalist country on Earth?! Just the mere fact you're American => that's instant credit worldwide.
And who said you have to let your location hold you back? You don't even need to start a bricks and mortar business. You could do something internet based - work anywhere in the world from this "rust belt" middle of nowhere place, so long as you have a computer and an internet connection. If you ran, for example, a web design agency - you could get your projects anywhere in the world. If you ran a digital marketing agency - same shit. I guess you could even open a writing business. And you're American - that alone puts you ahead of most everybody out there. What can the poor Indians running web development companies and trying to get international projects say then? Why can these people do it, even though they have all the disadvantages in the world? Language barriers, etc.
If I came to that fallow field, I'd show you how eazy peazy it is to bring in 5K/month revenue in no time - just one month. 60% time getting projects, 40% doing them yourself or giving them off to others to do in parts for you. It's really not that difficult if you're willing to work, persevere, and handle the worst imaginable emotions and thoughts ("oh I'm failing, never gonna make it, this is stupid, I'm wasting my time, oh this is so hard - never gonna learn it, my client will be mad, etc. etc.). Make 100 phone calls every day - you'll find work, after 5 days of rejection. It really all has to do with never giving up, and resisting pain and stress.
Change this negative attitude of yours from "it's impossible" to "how can I make this work?"
Would you see a doctor without them having previously gone through all the necessary educational and professional hoops that warrant them being awarded a medical license? Western education is not about eliminating fuck-ups, or mistakes, or, absolutely, every person who shouldn't be what they have a "degree" in. What it does do is provide a reasonably objective foundation from which people are educated and trained in various fields and specialties in order to work a job suited to those emphases. That said, you and I can debate how that objective foundation can be wrought, but the idea itself is a sound one, and any argument against it would suggest to me that that person is sipping some mad koolaid.
Quoting Agustino
No, I don't think you are. Is it the university's fault that you got an education just to be a construction worker? Again, you're trying to pigeon-hole your failed education experience into a macro problem for everyone, which is dubious thinking. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about this topic, since none of this has anything to do with Question's OP.
Quoting Agustino
I don't know how you got your job, or any job you've had in the past. If you're gonna hipfire how simple everything is, don't be so bummed when someone like me slams you with equally dismissive replies.
Quoting Agustino
Credit enough not to land me a decent job, yeah. I'd be pretty well off if I could only tap into my Americaness, and my whiteness, and my maleness, and my
Quoting Agustino
I barely have the patience with this forum's busted quoting system, how do you think I'm just gonna shit a business out my ass? I have my own career goals and aspirations. If I cannot fulfill them given the systems in place that are supposed to ensure such success, then I'm not going to walk blindly into a world I know nothing about. Again, "just go start your own business, hur dur" is equivalent to the person who laughs at my unemployment and just says, "lul, you have a degree that can't land you a job? Stop complaining, there are so many jobs out there! Like, you could flip burgers at McTrump's!"
Quoting Agustino
Okay, Joel Osteen. I'm sure you'll want a tithe before you share your secret expertise, amirite?
Quoting Agustino
You're switching the goal posts, here. If I train myself to be a doctor and cannot be a doctor, for whatever the reasons, then I'm not making that work, I've actually just thrown away everything I spent my time doing in order for me to NOT be in the position where I have to be a slut and sell myself to any career path that enables immediate money, however much that may be. As I've tried to get across here, the reason that there are specialized fields to begin with is to make available for those that would want it a career path that is narrowed and focused on a niche, so that people don't just hop around temp jobs, minimum wage jobs, this managerial job to that next one, and so on.
Also, and since you bizarrely brought up antiquity at some point in here or in another thread, I cannot remember, consider my above example of a doctor again. Think of a Roman soldier who enlists himself, upon becoming a man, into all the preparatory means to becoming a professional soldier, but at the end of it, he's told that, "oops, sorry, we don't need you anymore. How about you become a dirty fish merchant, eh?" But see, ancient Rome didn't operate like that! If one gets training in field x, they worked in field x. That's it. No reworking, no retooling, no, "lawl, just find something else to do, hehe XD". To NOT place someone in the field that they have experience in would have been seen as complete and utter madness.
Merely because, in the US at least, there isn't a particularly good safety net in place to protect people like me and others from getting the "hehe XD" treatment, doesn't mean that being educated and trained in field x, y, or z is a waste of time, money, human resources, is the lizard Jews' plan to enslave us all, what have you. It merely means that that safety net needs to be worked on, not for people to treat those who are trying to go after specific careers they'd like to work in as being lazy, unreasonable asswagons.
Thanks, never listened to Randy Newman before...my spine is still shiverin'...
That's a classic symptom of depression, and you specifically mention depression further into your post. It sounds like you were attempting to self-medicate your depression. You rather need to see a medical professional about it. Depression is a medical condition.
Medical professionals will not necessarily be able to cure your depression. And even if they can, it might not be easily curable. But, not seeking treatment is certainly not going to make it go away any more than you could expect cancer to just go away on its own via not seeking treatment.
In our culture we have stigmas about seeking help for conditions like this. We need to get past that and realize that this is a medical situation. The stigma needs to be directed towards not getting professional help for it.
Right...
Quoting Terrapin Station
Wouldn't no stigma be better?
I listened to that; it's great! >:O
I don't think that no stigma would be better. Too many people would leave it untreated in that case.
Quoting Agustino
That was the point, one can't sense death! You can argue one can at the moment one dies but witnessing someone 'not waking up' and 'go away' is not it. Pink elephants and unicorns are beyond the argument, what's real has specific effects and the only way to determine what is that is through logic.
Quoting Agustino
So let's say, my goal is to become.. no, my goal is being righteous and therefore I'm obliged to behave myself at all times. It's an indefinite goal that implies an absolute guideline, I see. But the question still stands: "What's the purpose of doing one's duty?". One can be righteous and still have definite goals after all. If the purpose of doing one's duty is doing one's duty, that's just circular reasoning.
Quoting Agustino
You said:
Quoting Agustino
Enjoyment implies satisfaction which implies the fulfillment of a desire. Having a desire would be just as pointless as you claim enjoying oneself is if there wouldn't be any intention to fulfill it, therefore condemnation of enjoyment is condemnation of desire.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
How can something be a tragedy for someone if their actions didn't cause it?
Quoting Terrapin Station
It is already and got on my nerves while I was depressed. What's treatment good for when the cause persists? A professional is not some kind of magician to make angst disappear, as in cease to exist. Professionals may be tactful but they have neither pure reasons for helping nor an universal formula for the 'human soul'.
Maybe there are medical conditions that cause depression but depression is not a medical condition in itself and can take over without an accompanying medical condition. Depression should be treated like any other overbearing mood, through reflection.
Mentality is identical to (dynamic) brain states. If you have "major" or "clinical" depression, you have specific things going on in your brain that can sometimes be mediated if not fixed outright. Psychiatrists will attempt to find a medication that helps you at least attenuate your symptoms and/or they'll guide you through things like lifestyle choices (such as diet, where they may have you work with a nutritionist, too) that can help get your brain chemistry back on track.
Well, I think we need to get past this truism. Namely, that a medical professional can magically treat the depression him or herself and thus the depression stops. While my depression can or has been decreased in magnitude it still persists.
People's actions don't cause the suffering in their lives? Wot?
I don't know whether there is anything that can be done to "cure" your depression. You probably (and I would say, correctly) have limits for treatment beyond which you don't want to go. A reasonable question for Question might be: "Depressed as you are, are you able to function reasonably well?" I hope you can function "reasonably well". If you can, then that takes you off the critical list and puts you on the walking wounded list, where a lot of us are, or have been for extended periods of time.
Getting less depressed might not be possible, all things considered, and if it is possible, it might be the case that only you can achieve the improvement. I don't know whether you can, and if you can't, then no body should blame you for not getting un-depressed. If you knew how to get un-depressed, you most likely would have done that a long time ago. (Sort of like asking people where they lost their keys. If they knew where they lost their keys, they would go get them.)
Maybe you can improve your life (if it needs to be improved) by accepting that you are a depressed person, and that is just part of who you are. You aren't the first person, by any means, who has been, is, and will likely remain at least somewhat depressed. It's not the end of the world.
Did you stop reading at that sentence? The next paragraph spelled this out for you:
"Medical professionals will not necessarily be able to cure your depression. And even if they can, it might not be easily curable. But, not seeking treatment is certainly not going to make it go away any more than you could expect cancer to just go away on its own via not seeking treatment."
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Quoting Heister Eggcart
People's actions don't cause their own lives.
I used to get suicidal thoughts almost everyday. My life is very depressing (I've even been diagnosed with schizophrenia). I still get suicidal thoughts, but not as often. What changed? I don't focus as much on how much my life sucks. Instead I focus more on what I can do to make my life better.
In the same boat. It's double the struggle because negative symptoms are rarely effectively treated while the positive ones are at bay. Amphetamines are thought to be good additions to A/AP's if you can find a willing and able doctor. They don't exacerbate the condition; but, supposedly help treat the negative symptoms while leaving the positive's untouched.
Personally, I have a hobby of understanding SZ and how to live with it.
I thought this song reminded me of another but I couldn't place it until now:
LOL, yes, or perhaps even everywhere in everyone's imagination. >:)
The studio version from Bone Machine is also on Youtube and worth a listen as it has a different ambience.
I'll post it on the 'What are you listening to' thread.