Citing Sources

I think... it was John Lennon that said there was no such thing as an original idea, or something along those lines

Quoting MonfortS26

What are peoples thoughts on citing their sources in the context of debating truth and presenting experimental ideas without profit being the ultimate goal? It seems impossible to have a productive conversation while simultaneously pointing to the source of every original idea

If you quote someone then a source must be given. If you're stating your own ideas no source is needed.

Quoting MonfortS26

It seems impossible to have a productive conversation while simultaneously pointing to the source of every original idea

Authority is one of the essential criteria for a sound philosophy. If the speaker himself has no authority (such as every member of TPF), then it is a very good idea to cite one who does. It is perfectly fine to limit yourself to invoking the authority of historically famous philosophers in order to reinforce your ideas and give yourself philosophical credibility.

Reply to MonfortS26Citing to sources is generally helpful. If you're making empirical claims (for example if you're arguing about gun violence, Covid deaths, global temperature changes, etc.), it makes sense to provide support so that people will believe your information. If you're making philosophical claims that have been advanced by others, it makes sense to reference them so that the conversation can move more quickly to the real issues of debate.

If you're plagiarizing, actually quoting others without reference, then I think you'll lose much credibility once discovered. Unlike in the real world where there might be some financial or professional gain from plagiarizing, it'd just be really weird to that here.

Reply to MonfortS26 Waste of time unless you make the effort to present sources that counter your argument. It is not exactly hard to find some source that backs up your claim but it makes for a more honest approach to show you have tried to counter your own position/s and questions them to some degree.

I do not think there is anywhere near enough of this here.

Reply to MonfortS26
Quoting MonfortS26

It seems impossible to have a productive conversation while simultaneously pointing to the source of every original idea

I fully agree! :up:

I have brought up this issue a lot of times. It seems that these people are not able to formulate their own position or they think it is not enough to make an impact as citing the position of a known philosopher or other authority. On the other hand, I rarely see quoting definitions of concepts from any standard source, dictionary or encyclopedia. These two combined, show lack of real understanding of philosophical issues.

Quoting MonfortS26

it was John Lennon that said there was no such thing as an original idea, or something along those lines

But then, why do yourself bring up an idea from someone else? :chin:

Quoting Jackson

If you quote someone then a source must be given

I don't think that this is the point here. When you cite someone, you normally also include the source.
I think that the point is why does one have to cite others, in general. Well, may be not, But this makes more sense.

Quoting Merkwurdichliebe

Authority is one of the essential criteria for a sound philosophy.

I don't find it essential at all. In fact, rather ineffective. One may bring up an authority for debating purposes, but it is not OK to do that as a substitute of one's own position, ideas, etc. Citing someone is a bad if not a substitute for arguments. It shows that the person does not really undestand the issue at hand or he is not able to describe/explain and judge it.
Imagine that everyone in here caite others as a response to every idea and subject. This would be an absence of philosophical talk!

Quoting Merkwurdichliebe

If the speaker himself has no authority (such as every member of TPF), then it is a very good idea to cite one who does

"Essential", became now "a good idea" ...
And, since when TPF members are authotities??

Reply to Alkis Piskas

Sorry, not getting your point.

Reply to Jackson
You said "If you quote someone then a source must be given", didn't you? Well, I said this is not the point of the topic. What part of it you don't get?

Reply to Alkis Piskas

Goodbye.

Quoting Alkis Piskas

One may bring up an authority for debating purposes, but it is not OK to do that as a substitute of one's own position, ideas, etc.

Where did I write "substitute"?

Quoting Alkis Piskas

"Essential", became now "a good idea" ...

Did it? You are obviously confused. Let me dumb it down for you. If you wish to have a sound philosophy, it is a good idea to include what is essential to one.

Quoting Alkis Piskas

And, since when TPF members are authotities??

Since never.

How disappointing! Not a single source has been cited, leaving the reader with unsubstantiated opinions on all sides. It's almost as if there are no hard and fast rules, and while some people like to be referred here and there to related material, others want it all laid in front of them ,and some take it as it comes, or leave it where it lies...

The moving finger wags, and having wagged, moves on

The Autobiography of God: Daniel 5:5 (Omar Khayyam edition)

The moving finger wags, and having wagged, moves on

:roll:

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

"The Rubaiyat" by Omar Khayyam (Fitzgerald translation I think)

Quoting Merkwurdichliebe

Where did I write "substitute"?

Nowhere. It was I who used this word, as a response to your "Authority is one of the essential criteria for a sound philosophy",
Well, this looks like a (known) method of avoiding to talk about the essence of what the other person says.

Bye!

Reply to jgill Are you rolling your eyes or wagging your finger at me? I may have misquoted and multiplied the misattributions, but it's the only citation in the thread. Be thankful for small mercies.

The point of citing one's sources is primarily to mitigate/prevent the despicable act of plagiarism which is basically theft (of other people's ideas) [the latest Tom Cruise hollywood blockbuster Top Gun is a case in point].

My two denarii.

Quoting Alkis Piskas

Well, this looks like a (known) method of avoiding to talk about the essence of what the other person says.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quoting Agent Smith

The point of citing one's sources is primarily to mitigate/prevent the despicable act of plagiarism

Yes. If you quote someone, you have to cite the source. Not sure why this is such a troubling idea for some.

Quoting Jackson

Yes. If you quote someone, you have to cite the source. Not sure why this is such a troubling idea for some.

Laziness, pressed for time, forgetfulness, and a host of other benign reasons. Ideas also tend to recirculate in the population - multiple discoveries (re the Newton-Leibniz calculus controversy).

Quoting Agent Smith

Laziness, pressed for time, forgetfulness, and a host of other benign reasons. Ideas also tend to recirculate in the population - multiple discoveries (re the Newton-Leibniz calculus controversy).

Not about common ideas. Pretty straightforward. If you quote someone, cite the source.

Quoting Jackson

Not about common ideas. Pretty straightforward. If you quote someone, cite the source.

10-4.

Quoting Jackson

Not about common ideas. Pretty straightforward. If you quote someone, cite the source

:up:

Quoting unenlightened

?jgill
Are you rolling your eyes or wagging your finger at me?

I love the poem, but beyond that is the fact that Khayyam is an academic ancestor of mine, having written about mathematical continued fractions - a topic I've researched.

Quoting MonfortS26

I think... it was John Lennon that said there was no such thing as an original idea, or something along those lines

Yes, but it was not original. Machiavelli said that, too, and so did Omniprotharos. Before them, Kostas Soumapoupoupulus, and before that, Skippy, the Nero said that. And before that, Moses said that, and before that, Kain said that.

Quoting god must be atheist

And before that, Moses said that, and before that, Kain said that.

My advisor said that regarding mathematics a half century ago. Didn't buy it.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

:cool: