Abolish money
Everyone here will think that doing away with money is the dumbest thing you've ever heard of. But do we really need it?
The competitive money system has given us a lot of progress and prosperity. But because it is a competition system, there are always losers. We are eight billion people now and most of them are in debt or even have no chance of education, health care or even money for food. Another part lives with all the wealth and therefore has more chances in life. But because of this competition, nature is consumed immensely and so nature and climate are deteriorating. One's death is another's bread. The world is on the brink of collapse due to the constant competition we are forced to live.
What if a real climate catastrophe happens soon? Who's going to pay for that? Nobody has a solution for that, while I think the solution is very simple. And that is abolishing the money. That will of course cause many other problems. But money is actually a barrier to problem solving. Because the money disappears, many more people will have the opportunity to stand up for society and people will work together much more for the purpose of progress and therefore no longer for profit.
There is a jumble of systems invented throughout history about how to deal with 'money' and possessions. Every religion is about how to handle money and greed. There is democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, etc. Everyone knows what these stand for, but nobody realizes that they are all more similar than everyone thinks. It's all about how to handle money and how to distribute it among the people. And because the world is now on the precipice, proof has been provided that all of these systems have failed.
Why doesn't anyone even think about it if we do need money. We now have the internet, artificial intelligence, robotics, etc. We now have technologies that weren't there before. We can easily develop a new economic system without competition. One where everyone is automatically entitled to basic needs. Of course, that will cause a lot of problems in the beginning. But look around you, right now we're not doing well either.
I have not had the opportunity to educate myself. That has many drawbacks in a competition system like it is with the money. But that also has advantages. I am not brainwashed by money and can manage to think further about solutions without having to pay first. Is there anyone who would like to discuss the concept of 'money' with me? You probably see a lot of problems, for which I already know the solution.
The competitive money system has given us a lot of progress and prosperity. But because it is a competition system, there are always losers. We are eight billion people now and most of them are in debt or even have no chance of education, health care or even money for food. Another part lives with all the wealth and therefore has more chances in life. But because of this competition, nature is consumed immensely and so nature and climate are deteriorating. One's death is another's bread. The world is on the brink of collapse due to the constant competition we are forced to live.
What if a real climate catastrophe happens soon? Who's going to pay for that? Nobody has a solution for that, while I think the solution is very simple. And that is abolishing the money. That will of course cause many other problems. But money is actually a barrier to problem solving. Because the money disappears, many more people will have the opportunity to stand up for society and people will work together much more for the purpose of progress and therefore no longer for profit.
There is a jumble of systems invented throughout history about how to deal with 'money' and possessions. Every religion is about how to handle money and greed. There is democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, etc. Everyone knows what these stand for, but nobody realizes that they are all more similar than everyone thinks. It's all about how to handle money and how to distribute it among the people. And because the world is now on the precipice, proof has been provided that all of these systems have failed.
Why doesn't anyone even think about it if we do need money. We now have the internet, artificial intelligence, robotics, etc. We now have technologies that weren't there before. We can easily develop a new economic system without competition. One where everyone is automatically entitled to basic needs. Of course, that will cause a lot of problems in the beginning. But look around you, right now we're not doing well either.
I have not had the opportunity to educate myself. That has many drawbacks in a competition system like it is with the money. But that also has advantages. I am not brainwashed by money and can manage to think further about solutions without having to pay first. Is there anyone who would like to discuss the concept of 'money' with me? You probably see a lot of problems, for which I already know the solution.
Comments (135)
Too, human nature doesn't take too kindly to things with zero utility.
I would suggest the rational use of money and, of course, other resources with a little bit of :heart: thrown in for good measure (xin). A pipe dream? Possibly, but it feels so right! :chin:
It is of course not possible to immediately abolish money. But we can immediately abolish cash. We can introduce a digital global currency where everyone gets a fixed basic income. In this way, competition and crime will disappear.
Quoting Agent Smith
It is not human nature not to be kind to useless things. In the eyes of people, something is only useful if it generates money. Something is only useful to a person if he himself benefits from it.
When the competition system disappears and people no longer have to fight for progress, people will find other things useful. Goals will change. And if a good leader stands up to steer the people in the right direction, then people will find things like love useful. In this way people will start to love nature and in the long run they will be able to grow into a protector of life instead of a destroyer.
I think this has been tried before! It didn't work out.
Quoting Vincent
Perhaps I'm wrong, but then so are most of the people I know. The world has a way of taking perfectly normal people and turning them into cynics & pessimists. It's rather curious. Plus these very same people tend to be highly successful.
An inaccurate assumption but I agree with you that the money trick is an evil system.
Even dimwitted theism came up with 'the love of money is the root of all evil.'
This was generally changed to the more popular 'money is the root of all evil.'
Money is the ultimate and most ancient con trick there is.
Have a look at my thread called:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12453/the-ragged-trousered-philanthropists-and-the-money-trick
UBI or Universal Basic Income is gaining a lot of support and popularity nationally and internationally.
Paper and metal money are already on the road out. Common currencies like the Euro reduce the number of global currencies.
Money is a very bad human invention that has been used to maintain the vile concept of rich and poor humans. It absolutely has to go.
I think we need to create an economy where everyone gets what they need. Some need more resources than others, so they will have to get more income. Others who need fewer resources will receive less income. Now it's the other way around. Now the people who don't need resources get more income and people who need more resources get less income. Everyone is different and a basic income must therefore be based on the needs of the people and on resources available.
This unequal division and fighting mentality is deteriorating the health of the planet and making people much more pessimistic about everything. A total reset of the economy is needed to save the climate. And that starts with a universal basic income without cash and then has it evolve through the internet and AI in a completely cash-free world. I think that will be possible in a few decades.
Two issues
1. Sometimes, the tool is the problem. Fossil fuel based engines for example.
2. Sometimes, the tool user is the problem. Replace money with x. Money has been removed, but people are the same. The problem will resurface immediately or later, but it will resurface with x now instead of moolah.
Good point, brother Smith! It's not money that's evil but the people that are nefarious. Money can set free and enslave, dependent on the users. It's just a universal guaranteed barter object.
:snicker:
We can use this problem as a solution. We can use these engines to build more environmentally friendly engines. Oil supplies are also running out. So we can use these old technologies to develop new technologies.
Quoting Agent Smith
Indeed. Just after an industrial revolution, everyone is happy and enthusiastic. But after a while new problems will arise and so a new industrial revolution is needed. After every industrial revolution (or war) there is a more unification of the system in the world. I think it goes on and on and on until we're all-knowing and have come up with a system that's really perfect.
Progress! Reminds me of Gödel's incompleteness theorems: In system x[sub]1[/sub], problem p[sub]1[/sub] arises. We then develop system x[sub]2[/sub] to solve problem p[sub]1[/sub]. What happens next is that system x[sub]2[/sub] has a new problem p[sub]2[/sub]. A new system x[sub]3[/sub] is needed which will have its very own problem p[sub]3[/sub]...ad nausesum :vomit:
Indeed. But the problem is that the money system gives the opportunity to enslave a population. As long as there is money in the world, there will always be people who will misuse it to oppress. Without money, people are less likely to do so. We all want to be free, right?
The problem is that people see the current system as 'normal'. People don't want to change until they see the problem. So one must be forced. I think that's what Putin is trying to do now.
You might be interested in sites like:
https://singularityhub.com/2020/05/18/here-are-the-results-of-the-biggest-universal-basic-income-trial-yet/
There have been many many local trials of UBI systems. As I stated, its popularity as a concept is growing. 71% of all Europeans are claimed to support UBI.
I will read it, thanks
We need good ideas, really good ideas and soon! The Doomsday Clock is ticking and I believe, unlike garden variety clocks, it makes sudden jumps: One minute it's all sunshine and rainbows, the next minute it's the friggin' apocalypse!
Your attempt here will go down in history! :smile:
Here's food for thought: An planet-killer asterioid on a collision course with earth can be dealt in 3 ways (there maybe more).
1. Blow it to smithereens
2. Deflect it
3. Slow it down
Options, options, we need options, fast!
There is an old saying, "There are truths, there are lies, and there are statistics"...
Quoting Vincent
Dunno... I think basically all human inventions have that property.
Indeed. Everything can be used or abused. But money is above everything and thus is the greatest source of oppression
I do agree with you on getting rid of the concept of money but I also want to point out that this has been a goal of socialism since its inception. It's a very old idea!
'To secure for the workers by hand or by brain, the full fruits of their industry and control over the means of production, distribution and exchange.'
UBIs provide more economic balance but won't get rid of money.
Money is fast becoming reduced to numbers which go up at the end of each month in your bank account and then the total goes down over the month as direct debits come off or you use card payments such as contactless. This shows that currency could currently be replaced by 'credits' to and debits from your account. At the moment for too many people however, the debits are bigger than the credits.
If the asteroid stand for the train of "progress", heading for the abyss while accelerating (so one metaphor for another!) we should stop the acceleration. We could sabotage the loc or nuke the asteroid. Which will have unwanted consequences but armageddon can be send home. No longer needed. Or maybe we should abandon the armageddon idea. Armageddon could actually be a self-fulfilling prophecy... :rofl:
I think you are trying for 'lies, damned lies and statistics' atributed to Mark Twain who claimed it was stated by British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli. It is a very important 'checkpoint,' that people should consider, so I agree with the general 'pause and consider,' point you suggest.
Then it's not money that has to go, but the idea it's above everything. It's treated like a god nowadays. "Money makes the world go round"? No way!
2: is possible I think by controlling the magnetic effect of objects and the earth. But we don't have the knowledge and technology for that yet. A new industrial revolution is needed first to tackle the real problems.
3: postponement of execution is not an option
4: Abolish money and change people's interests from greed to the real problems like an asteroid or climate change. When the money is gone, the solution will come.
Here's a good old suggestion:
'United we stand divided we fall.'
'People of the world UNITE!'
If we work together we can stop even rogue asteroids!
If we are distracted by shit such as rich vs poor, white vs not-white, male vs female, science vs woo woo, old vs young, etc then we will be unable to deal with and prevent autocracy/plutocracy/aristocracy/cult of celebrity/ cult of personality/ general nefarious b******* and rogue asteroids!
That's the one! So 71% doesn't mean a lot. They didn't ask me bout UBI!
exactly, now everyone is divided, so we will fall. After the fall, everyone will unite. But then there will also be a lot of tears
I agree almost with all of this. I don't see though why should stand together to form a front againsts woowoo in favor of science, as science itself contains the woowoo just as well. Woowoo is liberating!
Aw! :sad:
They did ask me! I voted for it! and I passed the email to all my friends and family as requested.
Which part do you consider too radical? Uniting in common cause with global humanity?
Don't be so quick to judge. You might owe your existence to a an avaricious ancestor! Greed existed for a reason, but, in the modern world, in so-called civilization, it's more of a curse than a blessing. I chalk this up to what I call The Mind-Body Gap. Our minds have tasted as it were the power of cooperation, our basic instincts, however, seem more attuned to a solitary existence in the savannahs.
No, the things...you want us to put on our ignore list.
I would vote for an UBI! I'm proubi! A proud bisexual! I love them all! No, seriously, statistics are weird! 5.786 people per 1000... The river is 1.5 meter deep in average. And she drowned.
You're not alone, brother Smith! How's the 3-year old doing?
Really? I am shocked you feel this way based on all our exchanges :rofl:
When it comes to theism 'That's not my name!' I don't think we have any more to exchange.
I have tried to boost your focus on physics and diminish your delusion that you need gods to fill in your gaps. I have been unsuccessful so my SCIgodian offer always remains open to you.
After a while, I refuse to repeat myself so I consider you currently 'lost,' as far as rational thinking towards theism is concerned. I am sure you feel the same towards me and I am content with that position for now.
:lol: Thankfully many and hopefully most of your fellow humans have a more optimistic viewpoint.
Well said!
In the horrible Darwinian reality of evolution by natural selection. the altruistic homo sapien would probably be the first to perish. We don't have to be like that anymore but it's still a part of all of us.
We'll see, the year isn't over yet.
Not the most detailed reasoning you have ever offered.
Woofwoof! :lol:
In a truly free society, all woowoo should be allowed. And not one particular kind should be institutionalized and by law taught to our children.
Good!
Quoting Hillary
Have you told your wife?
Dear mother of god...
I take the longer view. Never mind the 'year,' humans are not 'over' yet, that is what is important.
Yeah she knows. I kissed a guy in the street once, full on the mouth, during Corona! He was trying to stop a fight about to erupt between me and that f^%&^%ng neighbor of mine. She didn't like it...
We can leave the woo woo to Hollywood movies and use the education system for actual education.
Well, could have been worse, the guy you kissed might have reacted differently.
But your wife may feel she can kiss other people as well.
If you are okay with that then swing on!
Each to their own! It wouldn't work for me.
I am male and heterosexual and would require exclusivity from a female partner.
:rofl:
Indeed. Let them make movies about science and fiction. And guide children ourselves untill they are old enough to decide for themselves what they wanna learn. Science woowoo or astrology, or dreamtime woowoo, or any woowoo. All hail the woowoo! :lol:
Your first cause had a Mother?? :rofl:
Trust me, he wouldn't... It's not my daily business though!
Why not?
There is mathematical evidence that WW3 starts in 2022. So society will fall soon. That's not doom and gloom. That's just the reality. But that won't be the end of course. It will simply be a quest for a new international order. I've been trying to explain that all the time. A cashless world order will make WW3 the last armed war.
They all have! And brothers, sisters, children, etc. It's just like here. But non-material and eternal. Dear grandpa of gods...
:rofl: No offence, but this sounds like something the 'rapture' theists would approve of. Pure woo woo.
Woowoo! Wooooo....wooooooo woowoowoo! :lol:
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Surely you hear the growing throng of laughter towards such BS.
I take it you feel you deserve no better and that you will be vindicated in the end.
I am sure King Canute felt the same way when he faced the incoming tide.
Says brother Uni who believes in transhumans...
My bipolar friend David used to make such sounds. I miss him. Look after yourself, ITS IMPORTANT!
I surely do: "Woowoowoowoowoooooo....woowoowoh! :rofl:
We already have prototranshumans. The rapture has never and will never happen.
The rapture is happening already...
Quoting universeness
I know that, that's why it's not being listened to. But it has been discovered by scientist Ingo Piepers. He has found patterns in the data of the system wars of history. He is highly regarded in his findings. Of course it hasn't been proven yet. But if this comes true, then we can more easily predict the future without having to listen to nonsense from theists.
Well it did happen here:
?
There are many fringe 'scientists,' who can find evidence for anything you like, even gods
He had an eye for me since he came to live in our street. Freek Paardenkooper, great singer!
Someone with a pacemaker, for example, is completely reliant on this technology for the continuation of their life. That is a prototype transhuman imo.
I think you're someone who won't even believe it when it comes out. You think that everything is already known and that we live in an ideal world. People only change when they suffer. It is clear that you have not suffered much in your life.
No. That's someone with a pacemaker!
Ok, that makes more sense than the idea that you kissed a strange man in the mouth and assumed he would be ok with that.
So a future transhuman will be just someone with machine parts and organic parts. Just someone with a pacemaker.
Indeed. Not a transhuman but a lesshuman.
What you think accurately describes me is based on your own subjectivity.
Quoting Vincent
:rofl: You are full of assumptions arent you!
What if we changed the attitude towards money. Abandon global corporations, all with their distinctive logos? And change the attitude towards possession?
Those with the bionic pinky may overthrow the puny humans with no bionic pinky.
In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man can become king!
Of course. But then there have to be people without pinky's or eyes first.
:snicker:
Quoting Hillary
Nothing to report. Merci for asking.
You have introduced some woo woo yourself. Sometimes woo woo thinking must be dealt with within any exchange of opinions on a particular topic. The topic of money is certainly involved in selling woo woo or earning a living from woo woo or using the power of money to maintain or even enforce woo woo.
No, some will happily give up their current pinky for an upgrade that will offer much more functionality and longevity. Hanging a very heavy weight from it, killing a human with one flick of it, lifting a heavy object trapping a person legs, etc etc. But still has all the same functionality of a human pinky, same sense of touch, gentle pressure, growing nail(f you want), pain(if you want) etc
We all adhere to woowoo, brother Uni. No one is free of woowoo, neither you, as we've discussed enough now. You can question woowoo, and rightly so, but without woowoo, we are blind. Which is okay for a transhuman maybe, but not for people. You, me, Vincent, Agent Smith (he's the embodiment of woowoo even!), without woowoo, no life.
There are many others on the forum other that me and @hillary You can still exchange with them if you prefer.
Predict disasters, cataclysms, catastrophes, armageddon, the apocalypse and you've basically established yourself as an authentic seer! Entropy will make sure of that! :snicker:
No wonder eschataology figures prominently in religion. It's as if iron age folks had an intuitive understanding of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] law of thermodynamics, end of days and all that.
Meno's slave knew how to construct a square exactly twice the area of a given square. He only needed to be reminded of it! Go figure! :chin:
And behold: Woowoo. No, WOOWOO! :rofl:
I'm...only human. :smile:
Danke!
:snicker:
I endorse human imagination but we must distinguish the very useful, important aspects of human imagination that drive our pursuit of new knowledge and not the woo woo that comes from primal fears that manifest as BS woo woo from our Freudian ID.
And again: WOOWOO!
That reminds me:
Humanities purpose is not the pursuit of knowledge and giving birth to a kind of immortal superhuman, as you seem to suggest. Any future human willing to give up his real pink for a mechanic version is lost...
:rofl:
To paraphrase some theistic BS
'Forgive him father he knows not what he types!'
What a difference a 'y' makes!
Ill firgive you! :lol:
You've lost the contact with the gods. Typical, as the people gods showed similar behavior.
:rofl: I firgive you too!
A man should not have to give up his pink, nor a woman for that matter.
Some circumcised men dont even protect their pink very well! :rofl:
Brother Uni! A bionic penis? Don't we all long for one! :lol:
depends on the functionality and improvements offered. Perhaps a bisexual will require different options to a heterosexual!
:lol:
You mean one on the back? :yikes:
Are you serious...? :lol:
You should discuss your particular needs with the developers. Maybe you need to direct some of your questions towards a person like Elon Musk rather than Sean Carroll!
Elon has much more cash to invest!
About what?
About dick improvement! :lol:
:lol:
I am serious about future transhumanism. Genitalia will be involved for sure.
Which reminds me! I commented in the April blog! :grin:
"Doctor, can my pussy be juiced up?" :lol:
Do you mean 'in response to' the April mindscape podcast?
Save it for the shoutbox, you may get banned otherwise! :naughty:
It's a joke! With which I ridiculed the idea of body improvement by tech woowoo. Why not be satisfied with our godz-given bodies?
Yes. The mindblog. But, as expected, no response. Talking about money... Money should be banned! Carroll is just a greedy man, taking advantage of his woowoo, which he obviously sells. I think nobody can see what I actually mean.
I know that's how you see it but you are not in a pub with a group of knuckle-dragging male stereotypes. You are on a moderated public forum and the moderators have their job to do. You need to respect that or they will quite rightly ban you. They may ban me too if they think it's justified. They are the arbiters not you or I and I think they do a necessary job.
Quoting Hillary
Well, I doubt they will respond if they think you offered an imbalanced critique.
Quoting Hillary
Well, I certainly don't see what you mean. Do you have any actual evidence that Sean Carroll makes a lot of money out of his involvement with Patreon and the mindscape podcasts?
I don't have evidence that he doesn't, other than the fact that a very small amount of money is involved in asking a question and Patreon is involved with hundreds of podcasts on youtube so he and they can't be making that much from his mindscape stuff.
Why would he need to take a professorship if he was making a fortune from answering questions on internet podcasts?
I meant my cosmology and view on particles and spacetime.
Look. Carroll offers woowoo. He sells it. He asks money. For his books and even for an answer! What difference is there with any other woowoo salesman? The scigodians? Ziltch!
Well, then he should guarantee an answer. Which he doesn't.
Quoting universeness
I doubt too. They ignore the non-standard. Tell me about it!
An unbalanced critique? I just asked what he thought about the cosmology I hold. Literally no one has offered a serious counter! I begin to think that something so obvious is pretty difficult to understand after all!
Exactly because of his professorship he shouldn't ask money. If he gets that little, why ask anything überhaupt? He shows no love for knowledge. Just his own woowoo and need to show off. How much earns a professor? 10 00 per month? Not enough?
No, you misunderstand. I mean I don't get your complaint against Sean Carroll.
He does answer questions people send in and he does answer questions that are in my opinion, fringe. I know because I watch his monthly mindscape podcasts and I find his answers balanced and informative. I don't know why he hasn't answered yours. Maybe he thought you didn't ask a question that was worth him answering, I have no idea. My point was, I don't think he will make much money out of the mindscape podcasts.
Quoting Hillary
I have already answered you on this, I disagree and I think you are bitter and I am a fan of Sean Carroll.
Quoting Hillary
If no fully qualified physicist has EVER critiqued your origin posit based on your actual physics involved then the question indeed becomes why not? It may be because they think your physics is at the level of a crank. I don't think it can be because they are afraid you are completely correct.
The majority of Physicists are attracted to truth in my opinion.
You showed that Mr Harari offered a little credence to your position? Is that all you have?
Why don't you ask a question on Quora and highlight it, particularly to people such as Victor T Toth.
You can choose to ask your question to targeted physics professors on quora.
Their profiles come up when you enter a question.
Then you can provide a link here to their answers to the question you pose.
I have had all my questions answered to my satisfaction on quora.
Yes, I know. But I meant that Carroll doesn't know what I mean in my cosmoligy.
Quoting universeness
Why should I be bitter? You projecting again! I feel better than ever! Who cares that your great idol doesn't understand. Not me! :lol:
I have suggested it on almost all physics forums! They ban you or close the question. Im writing it all up now, little by little. I have a few hundred pages and write about a page a day. Who needs Carroll? His woowoo is nonsense. He has no real genius. Only conventional views. A conformist.
Hah! Whose projecting who? you have just projected 'fan' to 'great idol.'
You should be busy forming questions for all those physicists on quora instead of complaining about Sean Carroll here.
:rofl:
Like I said, Quora doesn't accept non standard physics. Physics forum and stack exchange neither. Banned before. Even from a science forum here!
So a page a day, how many pages in your paper/book? It should be easy to predict a finished date.
Then we can find out how many physicists our there come out in support.
I advise you not to end your book/paper with a phrase like.
'So my final conclusion is. God(s) did it!'
Huh? Isnt Carroll your idol?
So the conclusion is that those who moderate the forums you mention consider you a crank, based on the physics evidence you propose/offer?
No, I am a fan of all current cosmologists, mostly equally.
I am a great admirer of many scientists also, past and present.
Well, I take my adventures on the net on many sites, as leitmotiv. I hop from subject to subject, ban after ban, and offer great insight in the human psyche! Lemme tellya! You truly get to know some characters! Right now Im writing about economy and the brain. Each chapter has a subject. The altruist gene, the rishon divide, the infinite memory, etc.
Ah, I see. Idol is religious...
Yes it is.
You can PM a physics question to me or just post it here, that you want answered on quora.
I will post it on quora as a 'question asked by another, that I would like an answer to.'
I will target it toward physics specialists on quora who have answered me before and I will provide a link here to their responses. if you want.
Yes, that's a great idea. Ill PM you about the question. Its about the parts of quarks and leptons. Good idea! Ill formulate the question when return from walking woofwoof! :up:
ok :smile:
Can't you two talk about smart bs in your discussion? If no one is interested in my topic then make it disappear
You're right Vincent! I forgot it was your thread! Sorry! :heart:
We were talking about money though. Carroll could have answered for free!
:rofl: Yeah, hopefully @hillary will PM me some of the physics questions he claims physicists won't answer. Sorry for hijacking your OP a little!
thanks :kiss: