Why do I see depression as a tool
First, I would like to say that I have not read enough about psychology to present these ideas as scientifically true. These are "Empirical", a priori conclusions that I have made past the last six years. I mostly intend to discuss them, as I don't usually talk to other people.
With that being said...
We all have been through hard times, however, when you are depressed, I think that could be seen as an adaptation. You now don't feel like needing things (especially the things that caused you pain), so you can choose your decisions from an emotionally-detached point of view, which is important on critical situations that happen sometimes.
I see depression affects people differently; Some seem to be affected in a way that causes them sadness, mostly, whereas there are some that just get inhibited from some of their cognitive responses. How can this be useful in any way? Well, it feels like depression represses those cognitive responses that usually "Get in the way" of thinking and, especially and most important, in the way of doing.
I was diagnosed with "Severe depression" recently, and all I remember about being in a normal condition is pain. The only thing that I find not actually useful is that sometimes you feel the desire to die, which are frequent thoughts. I was not able to take responsibilities that now I'm willing to, "What can I lose, right?"
I frequently find myself observing other people manipulate them each other and I easily see what they do to their emotions because I used to feel like that. I know what is like to feel desperate to do something because you have something important at stake, and I know how it feels to be overwhelmed by your own thoughts when doing something important when you have to hurt someone else's feelings to do so. When people feel like this, they are predictable and manipulable.
I find myself observing, and also not doing it, which makes me think: Is my condition actually an illness, or is it an adaptation, really?
Thank you in advance for the responses, and remember what I said in the first paragraph.
Regards.
With that being said...
We all have been through hard times, however, when you are depressed, I think that could be seen as an adaptation. You now don't feel like needing things (especially the things that caused you pain), so you can choose your decisions from an emotionally-detached point of view, which is important on critical situations that happen sometimes.
I see depression affects people differently; Some seem to be affected in a way that causes them sadness, mostly, whereas there are some that just get inhibited from some of their cognitive responses. How can this be useful in any way? Well, it feels like depression represses those cognitive responses that usually "Get in the way" of thinking and, especially and most important, in the way of doing.
I was diagnosed with "Severe depression" recently, and all I remember about being in a normal condition is pain. The only thing that I find not actually useful is that sometimes you feel the desire to die, which are frequent thoughts. I was not able to take responsibilities that now I'm willing to, "What can I lose, right?"
I frequently find myself observing other people manipulate them each other and I easily see what they do to their emotions because I used to feel like that. I know what is like to feel desperate to do something because you have something important at stake, and I know how it feels to be overwhelmed by your own thoughts when doing something important when you have to hurt someone else's feelings to do so. When people feel like this, they are predictable and manipulable.
I find myself observing, and also not doing it, which makes me think: Is my condition actually an illness, or is it an adaptation, really?
Thank you in advance for the responses, and remember what I said in the first paragraph.
Regards.
Comments (100)
The current psychobabble rather agrees with you, that depression is an adaptation to traumatic experiences. This is actually in line with physical illnesses to a large extent, in the sense that symptoms are very often adaptations to pathogens - coughing, raised temperature, and so on.
The classic case is childhood trauma at the hands of one's primary carer. There is no escape from the neglect or abuse, and so the mind shuts down or turns down the sensitivity.
Here is a link about adverse childhood experiences: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefactors.html
And here is an old discussion on this very site where we talk about them: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5783/adverse-childhood-experiences/p1
Adverse adult experiences can have the same effects, and PTSD often includes depression.
Why not? I've been depressed for most part of my life. Luckily with great highs in between in which I felt myself truly. Bipolar is the label. The depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance. The depression, the imbalance, is caused by the unnatural surroundings we are puffed in. The baby grows in a world not fit for the brain. So the brain reacts Depression, psychosis, mania, drugs addiction, etc. I had a fair share of all and they are just reactions of the lightning-shaped chaotic brain to the linear environment it's pushed in.
I don't subscribe to 'misery loves company,' and subscribe more to 'a problem shared is a problem halved.' I have my own ways of dealing with dark thoughts.
I find it interesting that some of the greatest battles individual humans face are internal, either due to their own 'internal wiring/chemistry/biology/ or based on trying to make personal sense of what they witness or experience or read about during their lives.
I am mostly able to defeat dark thoughts with stuff like "well, things could be worse, I could be........'
Or "Well, if I kill myself, something really cool will happen a few days later like aliens will visit us or something and I will f****** MISS IT"
I know such does not work for 'severe depression' or such conditions as bipolar but I think it's important to just be there for others if they need you to be.
I say all power to you, in finding aspects of depression, which can, in your own way, be less negative than the 100% negativity normally associated with such words.
I have heard Stephen Fry talk online a great deal, about being bipolar and that in the final analysis, it makes him who he is today and he wonders if he would have had the good life he has had overall, if he were not bipolar.
The modern approach to depression is to see it as being caused by a chemical imbalance of neurotransmitters. Too many of them or too little. This can be the case. In which case there is no real reason except the neurotransmitters being produced too much, or too little. Or them being re-uptaken badly. Or whatever can cause the abnormal quantities. Drugs can relieve the pain. Heroin is well-suited but has known consequences. Mainly money-related. Given on prescription (in Portugal it's a legal stuff, like most drugs). Methadone, the state-provided drug, offers relief too. They don't kill physical pain only. Many people don't experience relief by taking anti-depressants. The situation actually can get wirse, no matter the sophidtication of a "new generation" of drugs (selective re-uptake inhibitors, for example). They did make it worse for me.
This imbalance could be caused by some defect in the brain mechanisms keeping the balance right. Modt of the time though, the imbalance has external causes. And most of the time these can't be taken away. Modern society is present in virtual every spot in the world.
Why so many people are depressed? Sign of the times.
If you actually achieve to use depression as a tool to grow yourself bigger, you won't believe afterwards the things you will achieve.
I don't know if that makes you feel better but I always found people with psychological problems kind of "special". The actual potential they have deep inside them, is huge.
And I always found them much more interesting persons than the "normal" ones.Normal people are damn boring.
This is a good analogy. But it is often confusing to relate physical and psychological phenomena as the "Wounds" that one could suffer mentally don't heal automatically but we have to; first be willing to; and second, knowing what to do in certain situations. That without taking into account that every course of action requires opportunity and that certainly is not always present.
Quoting EugeneW
Thank you for asking. I thought that would be misunderstood.
I don't talk to other people because I'm a very solitaire person. This can be but I think is not the reason for my depression, although may have worsen my ability to understand it. I'm just not good at making friends in the real, "Physical" world. And as I don't usually do, I also lack most of the "Social abilities", so to speak. However that is not important to me.
Quoting EugeneW
Well I think I'm not far from truth. That is what I believed.
Quoting universeness
What a survival instinct.
I honestly have very recurrent suicidal thoughts sometimes but thinking about missing out things would just produce me stress because I will certainly die at some time.
When I think about that, I just remember the things I like about being alive, like being able to drink water and pet dogs. I also have very ambitious vices as everyone else, but I would not change the first two for anything.
I believe there are much chance for instant pleasure, which often doesn't last much. There are many short term solutions to every problem that only thing you can do is forget about the laborious ones.
This have lead people to forget about long term well-being.
That also affects one's ability to grow correctly a family or children, or even to take care about oneself.
This surely is one of the things that may have affected me personally.
I think this is an imbalanced viewpoint as well. 'Boring,' is not a label that should ever be applied objectively to any individual or group. 'Boring,' is always a subjective label and is nothing more than a circumstantial opinion. I find the vast majority of all hip hop music I have ever heard 'boring,' but I know many general music fans would fire pelters at me for such a viewpoint. I find a lot about philosophy boring. I could give you many more personal examples but it's just really personal taste and is mostly momentary and can even reflect mood at the time, etc.
What I think is essential in a thread like this, is the more important effects of stigma/fear/shame etc associated with mental health. These are the real enemies in the area. This is what must stop.
There MUST BE NO SHAME, NO ONE SHOULD BE SCARED TO SPEAK ABOUT AND NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE STIGMATISED due to any struggle with mental health. This has to be the goal of any decent, ethical, humane society, in my humble opinion.
People must be able to discuss their psychology with those who can help them develop ways to cope and turn potential disadvantage into something more positive. We must reach a stage where revealing and discussing mental health issues is as common as revealing and discussing that you regularly get indigestion problems.
Sure it is. My personal opinion and nothing else.
I think that's a profound realization.
Sounds like a good approach to me!
Quoting dimosthenis9
I was merely typing about my disagreement with your personal opinion, that's all.
Do you think something like 'that's just who I am and who I choose to be and I am perfectly happy with the advantages of being a more 'solitary' person,' or 'I accept these as shortfalls and I have tried to combat this but I have been unable to, I would like to be less solitary,' or 'I suffer from SAD, social anxiety disorder' Do you think that named medically recognised conditions such as SAD help or do you think they are medically contrived for the sake of political correctness?
Quoting unenlightened
Is depression like the body’s immune response to an invader, designed to protect the organism but also capable of damaging the organism?
I know there are some approaches which claim that depression is adaptive ,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2734449/
but I disagree. I argue instead that depression is not an ‘adaptation’ to trauma. It is the interpretive experience of the repercussions of the trauma itself. It is not a response to injury, it is the injury itself. It is the opposite of an adaptation. I am not taking the dsm view of depression as a pathology WITHIN the brain , but rather as a crisis triggered by one’s situation as one interprets it.
It is loss of capability, loss of competence, loss of self-esteem, loss of meaning and relevance, loss of coherence. When one suffers a head injury and has difficulty with memory and concentration, these symptoms are not adaptations to the head trauma, they define the meaning the head trauma itself. Just as avoidance of over-stimulating situations is a
coping adaptation to the head injury, adaptations benefit one in dealing with the losses that depression represents. For instance , withdrawing from social situations is an adaptation that protects one from being exposed to painful reminders of one’s loss of competence, and situations which may even deepen the feelings of worthlessness.
Depression isnt a mechanism, it is a way of meaningfully appraising our loss of self-confidence.
If we start by arguing that depression is adaptive, then we may as well also say that failure, confusion. illness , injury and all other psychological and physical responses to our environment are adaptations. But not every response of an organism to its environment is an adaption. Organisms can fail to adapt and fail to thrive. A prolonged severe depressive state is one such failure to thrive. Just because we recover from a depression or an injury doesn’t makes these adaptive. We may not recover from the injury or the depression.
One has to ask what is the baseline normative functioning of the psychological system at a given point, and whether the system’s reaction to a change in its world maintains and enhances that normative functioning( adaptation ) or reduces it ( non-adaptive).
ithinkthereforeidontgiveafuck?
From the last I read on this subject it is something that often worsens with age. I cannot remember when this usually happens, but if I recall well enough I believe most cases of this happen from mid 20’s to mid 30’s? It’s been a long while since I last looked at this though.
By far and away the most prominent cause/trigger of items like psychosis and schizophrenia is irregular sleeping patterns. Given that our understanding of sleep and dreaming is fairly limited the reasons likely lie within this area.
Total BS.
Tell me about them.
I think you are right. That changes the way I think about it.
Now I understand it's not an adequacy to something but the thing itself. That in fact really makes sense.
However I still experience that my overall conditions are better than before, when I was not "Injured."
Quoting Joshs
I agree with you mainly in this. I'm completely aware that I stand apart from people because I don't like to deal with the failure that results from my lack of social abilities (And I also don't like when I see someone likes me in any way, it makes me feel that they are being somewhat hypocritical.) But as it doesn't cause me much pain I don't really see the point in solving it, honestly.
You just said things that, frequently, when I say them to other people (Mostly trying to help), people get pushed away from me. That is a little hilarious.
Quoting universeness
Well... I have always refused any kind of drugs and I stand on my position. I prefer this to kill me rather than alter my brain.
I understand the point of your question. I know social distance usually causes a lot of pain, and it is actually a little uncomfortable, but it's not that I'm happy with it, which I'm not, but rather that it doesn't cause me enough pain for me to pay attention and time to seek a solution. I honestly was not looking for motivation in this aspect. I just commented it because I think it is important to know whether a person usually talks to other people or not when you are talking to them, as things said by the latter would be misunderstood sometimes due to that same lack of interaction. In that sense I don't have many problems...
Links are provided in the thread I linked to, if you are interested.
What's against taking drugs? I know it helps me. If you find the right one, it can sooth that brain depressing you. It wont take the real cause away though. But they can sooth the brain, which I dont see as constituting an essential part of me. Damned brain...
Then I think - maybe the first is true and health is how I deal with the dejection, helplessness, rage, rebellion, fury etc.
Turn it inwards - it's suicide. Turn it outwards - it's murder and destruction. Turn it into something else - music, art, drinking water and patting the dog as has been mentioned.
A ray of sunshine Gloria
As if a promise
Some strange kind of Euphoria
Here in my darkness
Some strange kind of Euphoria
I wander in the endless desert
Drowning in the waves"
Being upset and saddened due to the death of all your family and friends is not exactly the same as having a happy family life, a successful career following the path of your childhood dream, lots of friends, good health (eating, sleeping and exercise), yet you feel like you should be dead or die due to misery.
There is a significant difference.
Best to do that then or we might let the horrible antinatalists in.
I don't mind. They are always jolly company.
there are some links in that op and more later in the thread, and there is a deal of research been done done. One link I like is this:
https://whatnow727.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/herman_trauma-and-recovery.pdf
Some people can be psychopaths due to a gene. But not all people who possess the gene become psychopaths. Some people’s neurochemistry simply changes to a certain degree in later life that can cause quite severe depression (irrespective of outside influences).
Of course there are some from column A and some from column B, but it is (as has been suggested by some one) plain wrong to state that it is all about life experiences.
:smile: Very magnanimous of you. To me, when they type their depressing viewpoint, they add to the suffering they claim they wish to prevent/terminate but I know that's not how they see it and I hope I have just not given them an opening into this thread! :scream:
Of course. Psychopathic genes... Dream on.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0488-z
A yes. Eugenics... Intelligence genes, crime genes, depression genes, stupidity genes, etc. Seems you have too much of the last... The only thing genes to is coding for proteins.
Read:
It's about gene expression. Not about genes.
Anything else moron? Care to call me a lunatic again?
Just read: the expression of genes.
Yeah... Elementary preons are involved in genes too. Blame it on preons...
I read somewhere that there are languages which use the same word for "weakness" and "strength." Can't remember the source or which languages. It makes sense to me that our weaknesses are also our strengths.
You can do the research or keep spouting crap that will likely get you removed from this forum. Your choice.
Then where is the proof. The link you've shown clearly doesn't provide evidence isn't proof. It, very sneaky and thoughtfull, talks about expression. Just reoeating genes are involved doesn't actually involve them.
What about the central dogma of molecular biology?
Ooooh... "Im gonna tell the mods..." You should actually read the links you give before you post. No genes are involved as the cause. For the third time, the expression is involved. That something different as the genes are involved. Its as simple as that. Bye bye!
Again you are suggesting theists are lunatics.
And do you have evidence for this?
Bah, never mind, I agree; psychology is always vague and fuzzy because it generalises the uniqueness of personhood. But the correlations for trauma theory are unusually strong.
Stephen Fry did a rather informative documentary on bipolar/depression. You can find it on youtube I think? It’s called The Secret Life of Depression or something like that.
What does "run in the family" then but inherited genes? This is a question from me.
The idea seems to me like losing my true self in exchange for happiness.
Quoting T Clark
There must be a difference between the two, if not it would be difficult to communicate. However, very interestingly, there is no way of reinforcement if you don't destroy your weaknesses "Subtly enough" to give chance for yourself to repair them, as in muscle growth. If it's too much you would not the weakness but the thing itself. That may be related to depression as described by @Joshs.
A nice video, but says nothing at all against trauma theory. There is a complex genetic predisposing component as one would expect because genes build organs, and there is a spectrum as one would expect because brains are complex. And then one might look for environmental factors, and one might find, one does find, that childhood trauma is very overrepresented in the depressed cohort.
Interestingly to me, though it passed without comment by the great man himself, when he mentioned being sent to prison, something one might expect to be somewhat traumatic, he said that to him is was very little different from the two schools where his behaviour first manifested. One is expected to regard being sent to prep school at the age of 6 or 7 as a great privilege, but I think at least for some it is experienced as abandonment by one's family:-- to be suddenly institutionalised into something that, if it is like a prison is also like an orphanage.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/film-and-tv/stephen-frys-schooldays-1131692
However, if ever there was a person who handled it like a pro it was the Buddha who I've diagnosed, retrospectively, as a life spent battling melancholia of the most pernicious kind. Evidence? His first noble truth: Life is suffering. I don't think depression gets worse than that. Siddhartha must've contemplated suicide every day of his 80 years on earth. That's hell if you ask me. It's just amazing how he maintained his clarity of mind against such an emotional onslaught! You da man, Gautama!
Depression as a tool? Via dolorosa??? :chin: The way of pain, reserved for the most advanced practitioners of, for lack of a better term, religions.
I was not suggesting trauma doesn’t factor in. My point was that there are cases where no trauma does not mean no depression, schizophrenia nor bipolar. It is not simply about being beaten or abused.
As for psychopathy having certain genes does make the chances of developing psychopathy more likely. Like you point out, there is not exactly a clear line drawn between genetic predisposition and external factors.
A great many cases where people ask ‘Why are you depressed?’ cannot be answered. It might be more helpful for people to attach a reason for what is happening in their brain, but it can quite simply be your brain and is, I imagine, far more likely to be due to dietary issues than some childhood trauma.
It just feels like exceptions are being given the basis for laying down a general rule. I have had depression and later realised it was brought on by psychosis that I simply blocked out. The issue was my brain chemistry not childhood trauma. The ‘reason’ for my depression was baffling because I had no good reason to be depressed at all. A later in life instance of accidental, self-induced psychosis due to lack of sleep, intense concentration and fasting, effectively awakened my past memories of psychosis (hearing voices in these cases).
At worse I have mild bipolar … but to be honest I think it was something else as it appears the experiences I had were more conducive to other brain disorders. I personally believe it is a lack of trauma that is more damaging to the psyche than individual instances in childhood amounting to little more than ‘growing up’ in a world that is not exactly safe.
If I gave the impression it was anything simple at all, it was unintentional.
Quoting I like sushi
In the literature, the term they use is "resilience", and a deal of study has been done. Resilience is the ability to recover from traumatic experience and it is developed in childhood with the support of primary carers. By dealing with minor trauma and stresses, one develops a psychological strength to resist and bounce back from events that would overwhelm one at first.
https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/resilience/according-experts/resilience-after-trauma-early-development
The common ‘why are you depressed’ when said to someone suffering depression can aggravate or ignore the underlying issue of a chemical imbalance (which may be congenial).
Ah, yes. I find my mood is like the weather, and just changes unconnected with what is going on around me. "Why are you sunny today?" is a silly question. Anyone who has spent time totally alone will probably notice that their mood changes from day to day, and even if there is an explanation, it is no more use asking me to account for my mood than it is asking a storm why it is angry. A man bitch-slaps his good buddy on public stage on probably one of the best days of his life, because... Freud knows.
After a month of your post, I was diagnosed with several depression today as you in the previous month. I have not read all the answers of my friends in this forum but whenever I read the question where you are wondering if this is an illness or an adaptation I thought it could be a good idea to take part of the thread.
To be honest, I always thought (in my deepest self) that depression is literally an illness but I never wanted to face it. Firstly, it was the medication which I had fear to take and then, the negative prejudices of psychological analysis and their stuff... So my behaviour was like an immature Child not accepting reality.
Now: You accept that we are in an illness and in danger because it turns out that you reach high scores in a test where it looks like you seem to be suicidal. This is why I see it as an illness. An adaptation can help us to get away with the problems, but an illness consumes us until our last days.
I guess this is why I am under public psychological administration, because I am somehow sick of severe depression which I can't be adapted for myself.
1.Perceiving emotions – the ability to detect and decipher emotions in faces, pictures, voices, and cultural artifacts—including the ability to identify one's own emotions. Perceiving emotions represents a basic aspect of emotional intelligence, as it makes all other processing of emotional information possible.
2. Using emotions – the ability to harness emotions to facilitate various cognitive activities, such as thinking and problem-solving. The emotionally intelligent person can capitalize fully upon his or her changing moods in order to best fit the task at hand.
3. Understanding emotions – the ability to comprehend emotion language and to appreciate complicated relationships among emotions. For example, understanding emotions encompasses the ability to be sensitive to slight variations between emotions, and the ability to recognize and describe how emotions evolve over time.
4. Managing emotions – the ability to regulate emotions in both ourselves and in others. Therefore, the emotionally intelligent person can harness emotions, even negative ones, and manage them to achieve intended goals.[/quote]
More at Emotional Intelligence (Wikipedia)
I do not trust public administrations of any kind.
Why? Because for them, your problems are not problems, your problems are statistics that they just take into account.
I would never consume any kind of drug (or alcohol) no matter what are the conditions. I prefer to be prone to suicide and be pride of who I am. I know it sounds crazy (I do not care about that either).
I know it makes you suffer a lot and it seems that it destroys you, but I have never reached such a state of peace regardless of that after this condition gave me the tool of not caring, I am somehow grateful for that... I feel almost guilty when I call it an illness.
It's been four years since the last time I had a friend and I don't feel a brutal need for attention, for example, and I know it is because depression makes you feel as if you don't even deserve it. I thought that was not possible since we are "Social animals" but it is what it is, and for that I am truly grateful.
I think it's a more intense life than a normal one. You are more prone to die but at least you experience things that normal people don't.
Depression is no natural state. Some drugs do the job. The real cause is not taken away but you just feel better.
How can a sane person not get depressed in a world out of natural balance, where happy childhood memories and the magic of life, are replaced by the rigid madness of adult life, expressed in megalomaniac destruction of a beautiful paradise, which is replaced by an artificial world of steel-framed concreteness, steered by increasingly fast super quantum computers, governing without remorse to shape human behavior and control the planet panoptical, steering life into the straight lines of ratio, forcing people to wannabe like the computers they so admire?
I feel your experience entirely, and I think you are a marvellous individual. I have the same understanding of having depression, but I continue to view that as a motivation that helps with my studying, work, and ambitions. I think to use whatever bad or good happened to us, or determined to meet us, is a gift. I hope you don't feel too stressed and in pain physically, and I love your ID!
Paradoxical laughter (Just a normal day in my life).
Extrema (of pleasure & pain) are singularities where the known laws of nature fall apart. Sancta Trinita, Unus Deus (ecstacy/rapture/euphoria) and, at the other end, the :cry: ... :chin:
Thank you. I don't want to be mean, but why?
Nothing I have said seem marvelous to me. I just exposed my truth.
I know you are trying to make me feel "better" with your words. There is nothing wrong with that but I have said that I don't like drugs that deal with depression because they alter reality as it is.
That's why I would prefer not to be comforted that way either, with words. I'd rather take this more seriously. Thank you again anyway.
I knew many would take this as an "emotional thread", but that is far from the truth. I wasn't looking for comfort.
Quoting Agent Smith
I have. Do you like music? It happens to me sometimes when I play some instrument.
Have you heard the Davy Jones song isolated from the movie? It is, in fact, marvelous.
Now I get it. I don't get that kind of messages easily. The price you have to play, I guess.
It's been a while since the last time I had a stomachache because of depression. Now I experience headaches more frequently than before, though. I mostly experience other kinds of somatization, e.g. insomnia, chronic stress...
I would say I suffer mainly from psychological symptoms.
Quoting FlorenceKaia
Very interesting statement.
What an irony. When you suffer from depression, a quote from Schopenhauer materializes itself:
"He who has tried the serious, is no longer interested in the joke."
Greek philosophy is my chosen way out of depression. I do not know how long I was seriously depressed but when it finally ended, like a headache ending, I felt like someone who stepped out of the cave and saw sunshine and a colorful world for the first time. I had really forgotten how it felt to be happy. It was an amazing experience to see the sunshine and all the colors.
We all must go to Hades from time to time to get a sense of meaning but we should never go there without the gods (concepts for living a good life). Without the help of the gods, we get lost in Hades. That is to be depressed or worse, psychotic. At my lowest point, I thought I was possessed by Satan and that he wanted me to kill people. I was really fighting for my sanity and at that point, I had a choice to believe what religion tells us about Satan and demons, or deny that belief and search for truth. I am so glad I discovered the Greeks at this time and began my path of being my own hero.
I had some depression during the shutdown that I think was as useful as you say it is. but I never went far into Hades because I now have the gods to help me find my way back out.
As humans we usually illustrate reality and somehow define and know how to function within that illustration of reality.
You can see it on religion, social movements, philosophies...
When used properly it helps like it helped you out of depression.
But there are lots of kinds of people... I would say I am the kind of human that doesn't easily illustrates reality or gets someone's else illustration.
Not chosen but my only way "out" of depression was and is acceptance.
I just have it and probably will not get literally out of it, but it's not completely bad. If it wasn't for it, I would have not be able to deal with things I dealt with.
I mostly see ironies in this respect.
To be grateful with depression. What an irony.
Man, to not get the joke is a serious problem! When we can no longer laugh at ourselves, we are in deep trouble, and for this reason, I wonder why we hold some philosophers on pedestals. They were seriously troubled men and can take us further into Hades instead of out of it. Comedians are often people who had terrible lives and they learned to use humor to cope with that. Some of them learned to teach us by using humor to make a point. The Greeks had both tragedies and comedies and I think this advanced their intelligence.
I don't disagree with that.
I laugh a lot daily. I find most things funny.
However there are stupid things one can do. It is better to be serious and laugh than to laugh because of being stupid, so to speak.
One of my best friends seems to have spent his life in depression. He makes me laugh a lot and when I laugh he smiles. For a moment he sticks his head out of the cave and sees all the beautiful colors. He has traveled the world and knows a lot so I really like to visit with him and learn what knows, but I don't think I would want to live with him and deal with his depression daily.
On the other hand, I totally got my own moments of depression during the lockdown were helpful. It is easier to stay home and attempt to amuse myself when I don't want to go do things. How about moderation? I would not want to be carefree during a pandemic and to become part of the problem, being exposed, being infected, and spreading it to others. Perhaps becoming a burden on the medical system. Or how about being euphoric and spending too much money?! :gasp: Been there done that. Coffee can unbalance my judgment. :lol: I believe the Greeks expressed the importance of being balanced.
I think you are saying something important when you speak of not getting someone else's point of view. Being sensitive to other points of view might be very important to getting out of oneself and seeing the bigger picture?
I completely agree! @ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf is too serious. He/she (though I think it's a he, who like fires more often than women) knows what's coming before and to take your depression seriously is kindof disturbing. I took it seriously too because I had too. Couldn't escape it. But people taking their worldviews or objective realities too seriously was exactly one of the reasons for the depression in the first place.
I didn't mean that. What I meant is that I don't like to see things from the point of view of a certain school of thought. Every aspect of life is different.
I absolutely like to know what other people think about things. I just don't like when that opinion is another opinion, not individually thought by that particular person, but just a respected therefore repeated opinion from someone/something else than himself/herself.
That is the reason I made this thread.
Quoting Athena
Moderation... I think it is important when you are reasoning something. It gives you justice and the impartiality needed for one to reach truth.
However there is a difference between sadness and depression.
The shutdown, evidently caused you sadness, but not depression.
Depression makes you see things differently. It is not just a feeling of sadness. In fact, you rarely feel sad. Sadness is not the most common symptom of depression, I would say.
I insist it affects different people differently, but for me, for example, I don't usually feel sadness itself. For example, you see joy differently; when I was a child I remember really experiencing joy. There is no longer a meaning in joy, the idea of it disturbs me instead. Although you tend to pleasure at the same time.
The solution itself for depression is moderation, that is right. The problem is that it is logically equivalent to say that the solution to poverty is wealth.
Quoting Hillary
Thank you. I took this as a compliment. You made my week.
Quoting Hillary
I really like fire. It is one of the most beautiful things on earth... but not more beautiful than women are.
I think you are confusing to be against feminism with to be against women.
Without women, the world would be uglier, grayer and colder. Even with fire in it. However that does not mean that a movement that not even favor them but serves as political campaign based on social inequality shouldn't be burnt to ashes (figuratively speaking. Or maybe not so figuratively).
Quoting Hillary
As said above there are lots of kinds of people... more serious... less serious...
Each one has its punishment and its prize.
You must have liked the flames rising to the nose of Joan of Arc...
Yeah, allright. But do you actually like being depressed? No, of course not. How can you? You are depressed.
I don't know if I have to take this as a joke or an accusation.
I will just say that I can't think of someone sexier than Joan of Arc right now.
Talking seriously... I like flames in every state of their existence. They make disgrace seem beautiful.
If I'm able to endure the pain, I think that to be burnt alive would be a glorious death.
Most great people in the past were burn in flames. Like Giordano Bruno.
Quoting Hillary
Yes.
Quoting Hillary
Nothing can be worse. Anything else is profit.
You'll only know when you try...
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
It can't be denied that there is beauty in licking flames.
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
I'm not sure if most where, but some indeed. You're born in the wrong era, my friend.
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
I'm not sure it's a depression then. I hated it when morning arrived and I was confronted with the beast!
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
Ah, yes. That's true. Being in a manic up can only lead to falling down. But the height feels great!
I am definitely born in the right era.
The world is always full of chaos, what difference would the era make?
By the way, who doesn't like chaos?
Quoting Hillary
Then I am either a god or a monster.
I don't believe in gods.
Quoting Hillary
I didn't say I was going to get that profit.
Do you know what is better than hitting rock bottom, Hillary? Staying there. Specially if it's forever, and more specially if you know it.
I don't. I like calm predictability and boredom.
I can't imagine a more chaotic nature than it is of boredom.
Not to mention predictability.
I thought I liked chaos, but you have passed my limit.
Yes, I think so too. The world never saw before so many fires as these days. Man-induced chaos rules supreme. Heaven for you!
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
I like chaos, but not the one you talk about! Makes me depressed.
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
And you do believe in monsters? The monster of depression? How convenient. If you feel fine with your "depression", it's no depression. It's a sign of your incapability. You wanna burn it all!
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
What on Earth do you mean by profit?
Quoting ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
Ah, a man of the Earth. How predictable. I knew you was going to say this. You are just as predictable as the people of which you know what's next.
Good luck with your "depression". Hope you finds some gold. What's so special about gold anyway?
:snicker: So, you, Athena, a goddess, no less, didn't help? No wonder the Romans, plagiarists, switched from Olympus to Jersualem!
Bottomless pit? You have it good, stop whining! :snicker:
Seems llike the worst life possible, though better than a bottomless pit, as half the world, if not more, lives in, as AS wisely commented. I would indeed feel very depressed.
I tend to see depression and anxiety as signs of a highly adaptable mind, at least. It’s both a blessing and curse. How that adaptability translates to behaviour is something we haven’t quite figured out yet. There are too many people telling those with depression to ‘just cheer up’, as if it were a simple process - probably because it is for them. For others, I think, there’s a more complex survey and construction process required, as if the instructions need to be more detailed. It’s like saying ‘just build a bridge and get over it!’ - as if everyone automatically should know where to start with that, regardless of the terrain or materials available...
There are dark paths in my mind I have stumbled across at times that seemed so easy to venture down that it was frightening on self-reflection: small, seemingly insignificant opportunities that flash by, such as taking a drink because it’s there or stepping out in front of a bus, and others that stay with me for months, and I find myself constructing reasons not to take it. I often think I was fortunate to never have been in a position at the time to consider any of them a reasonable option. Doesn’t make them disappear, though. My attention is often scattered, while my efforts are guided by a desire for balance. Nevertheless, the difference between could I? and would I? often seems so irrelevant to fear or desire. I can imagine a chemical or hormonal imbalance would be all it would take to construct a sufficient reason.
My daughter also has a highly adaptable mind, and has been prone to bouts of depression and anxiety all her life - not to the point of medical diagnosis, but enough that she’s been aware of being ‘not exactly normal’. At 18, she is gradually accepting it as a high level of adaptability, and has been learning to construct personally efficient and effective mental processes and to self-monitor and manage the impact of chemical and hormonal fluctuations.
:snicker:
Medically, I am supposedly in a not normal condition. It doesn't feel good but everything doesn't spin around feelings.
How would you define that immunity?
You really like when masks tell the truth don't you?
That is indeed what I was trying to figure out...
I find really hard to believe that the brain would harm itself. If it has done something, it has to be for good, or at least for better.
Quoting Agent Smith
I knew nothing of Athena or the gods when my life went very badly and I slipped deep into Hades. Learning of the Greeks and gods came later and was my path to a better life.
I very much enjoy Bolen's books and explanations of the gods and goddesses as archetypes. I had a Demeter archetype when things went badly, and she became seriously upset when Hades took her daughter to his underground kingdom. Zeus had to help her because nothing was growing and plants and animals were dying.
The switch to Jerusalem was very much what Greek philosophy did to Judaism.
The cosmic process of evolution is based on the variable stability of system structures. Humans evolved from highly variable (yet sufficiently stable) atomic, molecular and then DNA structures, to develop a highly variable brain/nervous system structure. Next step is a highly variable structure of mental processes, in search of the most efficient and effective, universally relational system. It’s always a risk in allowing for greater variability, and there will at least appear to be much more failure than success. Fortunately, evolution no longer needs to be a matter of life and death.
Apologies if I downplayed your angst. I should've known better! Just to be clear, the bottomless pit, that's my current address! :snicker:
I didn't meant an accusation. What I tried to say is that you usually encapsulate your arguments using linguistic masks. That's cool. Reminds me of the way Nietzsche writes.
In fact that makes a lot of sense to me. Could you cite your sources? I would like to investigate more about it.
Primarily, the inability to be distracted or immunity to the desire to seek distraction. Distraction is such a basic experience or activity for people's experience, it might be more accurate to say that life is distraction and a person is the distractions that they seek.
Boredom is a particularly domestic human trait in that boredom for wild animals might be the pinnacle of achievement. If an animal is not bored, then it is probably fighting for its life.
However, it is also likely boredom is an evolutionary advantage as it forces animals that are in no danger to maintain a certain readiness of action. So we see animals playing and seeking distraction especially as they grow more intelligent.
Almost any activity will become tedious at some point - especially in the pursuit of some worthwhile goal to the pursuer - so an immunity to being or seeking distraction from a pursuit will lead to its accomplishment.
I also think that boredom has at its core a fear of the base meaninglessness, loneliness and despair of existence, especially the contemplation of the likely unhappy, uncomfortable and humiliating end of that existence that awaits us all. The "eventual and inevitable solution to all my problems" as I like to call it.
So, can't really blame anyone for desiring distraction from that. Philosophical depression or existential despair which is separate from clinical depression probably (though both psychoanalysis and psychopharmacology are able to treat it) is related to philosophical pessimism. On the other hand, though, I find the pessimistic and cynical point of view to be very encouraging paradoxically. Events rarely turn out as bad as I expect them to be. In fact, possibly because there are so few real pessimists in the world, people tend to cooperate to ensure that even though outcomes are never optimal, they are at least not downright awful.
It goes back to that great line in ANNIE HALL:
To be honest, this is an idea that I’ve been piecing together from an understanding of the temporal process of Darwinian evolution in a broader, multi-dimensional context. If you recognise that the process of consolidating ‘random’ variability with relative system stability (survival) described in Darwin’s process has a temporal qualitative structure, then you can see that the same basic, atemporal process exists in the formation of other dimensional structures, including atoms and carbon-based molecules.
Carlo Rovelli in ‘The Order of Time’ had suggested that it’s more accurate to understand reality as consisting not of objects moving in time, but of interrelated events. He also gave an intriguing interpretation of QM in terms of information systems in ‘Reality is Not What it Seems’ (Ch.11). This ‘dimensional’ shift in awareness made a lot of sense to me, not just in terms of QM, but in terms of how, as conscious beings, we don’t simply respond to but rather anticipate experiences (as four-dimensional systems), and then relate this prediction to real-time observation/measurement. Lisa Feldman-Barrett proposed a similar process in ‘How Emotions Are Made’ that looked at the system stability aspect of this, but she also touched on neural diversity ‘issues’ such as autism, depression and anxiety that got me thinking back to the evolutionary process...