Idiot Greeks

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You can hear it in "idiosyncratic" or "ideolect". Something personal, quirky.

Quoting Banno

idiot

So egoism is idiocy. I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out. I've seen people being called out for thinking for someone else. Doing that is considered a sign of arrogance. Every man for himself, people, every man for himself.

It's kind of an antinomy actually: Altruism is, all said and done, just a fancy way of being selfish (roundabout, elliptical, round Jack Robinson's farm we go). There's a shortcut but no, nobody wants to take it because it's...er...improper, boorish, uncultured, simplistic. If being politely rude is a sign of sophistcation and intelligence we should have no axe to grind in re "God," who William Cowper claims, "moves in mysterious ways."

Quoting Banno

Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

It makes sense in the context of ancient Greek life. The highest form of life for the Greeks was political life. One leaves the household and engages in political affairs, affairs concerning the polis. An idiot (a person not involved in public affairs) does not do this and therefore also does not get to practice virtue, which for the anicent Greeks was attached to playing roles and roles are necessarily public. So yes not engaging in public life makes one an idiot.

Quoting Agent Smith

So egoism is idiocy. I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out. I've seen people being called out for thinking for someone else. Doing that is considered a sign of arrogance. Every man for himself, people, every man for himself.

Thinking for someone else is arrogance, deliberating and putting your ideas on the line in public life is not. In fact you do it yourself on this very forum Every man for himself is ludicrous. How does every man for himself get to to construct waterworks, sanitation, organise defense? In fact the genealogy of the word idiot as someone being on his own, nicely shows what the common mantra of every man for himself does. Greed is good is not just a business moddel. It leads literally to 'depolitisation', making it easier to control. An idiot is a far easier target to control than a mass or union. That is why the age of individualism became an age of idiocy, of evey opinion counting and the selfie becoming the highest form of enjoyment.

Quoting Tobias

Thinking for someone else is arrogance, deliberating and putting your ideas on the line in public life is not. In fact you do it yourself on this very forum Every man for himself is ludicrous. How does every man for himself get to to construct waterworks, sanitation, organise defense? In fact the genealogy of the word idiot as someone being on his own, nicely shows what the common mantra of every man for himself does. Greed is good is not just a business moddel. It leads literally to 'depolitisation', making it easier to control. An idiot is a far easier target to control than a mass or union. That is why the age of individualism became an age of idiocy, of evey opinion counting and the selfie becoming the highest form of enjoyment.

What's all the hullabaloo about making your kids, if you have one, stand on their own two feet, make the independent i.e. not have to rely on others?

Quoting Banno

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers, sparked my curiosity by claiming that idiotis, in ancient Greek, was a derogatory term for one who refuses to think in terms of the common good.

Well, that certainly got me going this morning - I'd already been wondering about the Ancient Greek for 'Neepheid' (in the Metaphor thread). This comes close.
Also - you didn't mention your source - all the better to check accuracy. So, thanks for the jump-start.

From: https://longform.wdclarke.org/talking-daughter-economy-yanis-varoufakis/
This is packed with myth and metaphor - stories for his daughter (and others) to answer questions like:
'Why is there so much inequality in the world?'

Quoting longform - digested read - yanis varoufakis

8 Stupid Viruses?
There is something deranged about what an economy solely focused upon exchange value does to the environment. Only someone wilfully blind could deny how much damage we, whom Agent Smith in The Matrix dubs “a virus […] a disease, a cancer of this planet” (123) have done and continue to do to our collective home. But the fact that we have imagined characters like Agent Smith to warn us of the worst parts of our nature means that we possess a better part as well, a “self-critical […] reflect[ive]” capacity (124), one that can call us out on our most absurd traits, such as allowing financial incentives to profit from environmental and social disasters (125).

This is because we pay no attention to those aspects of nature to which we have not attached exchange value: the air we breathe and the water we drink are largely, in economic terms, worthless, as are rain forests that have not been yet burned down so that cows may graze upon them (thereby giving the land exchange value) (126). And common resources that, if intelligently managed, would provide an endless source of value to us (e.g. fish stocks), in reality get squandered because,[b]in our addiction to competition and short-term profits, fishermen have all the incentive to drive fish species toward extinction (127).

This Varoufakis links to the Hellenic concept of the idiot:[/b]

In ancient Greece a person who refused to think in terms of the common good was called an idiotis – a privateer, a person who minded his own business.

'In moderation as a poietis [poet], immoderately as an idiotis ,’ the ancient Athenian saying went.

In the eighteenth century British scholars with a passion for ancient Greek texts gave the word idiotis its current English meaning – a fool. In both these senses our market societies have turned us into idiots.[/u] (128)

Only by ceasing to be idiots (ceasing to value exchange value and only that) can we have a hope of rescuing ourselves from the perils of climate change and mass extinction (129)...

Varoufakis closes with a thought experiment called HALPEVAM (“Heuristic ALgorithmic Pleasure & Experiential VAlue Maximizer”), which is designed to make those critics who might say “But I personally don’t care about any of this” change their minds. In HALPEVAM, you are given the opposite of the Matrix:

a virtual life that is by your own standards the best of all possible lives, and while in it, you have no clue that it is virtual. Above all, its primary directive is never to change our desires or motives to suit its virtual world but to create a virtual reality in perfect harmony with your own desires, sensitivities, aspirations and principles, just as they are.(137)

But there's a catch...so, read on...

*****
Quoting Banno

On checking, it does mean "one's own".

Where did you find that ?

https://www.wordsense.eu/idiotis/
'idiotis' is actually the Latin, derived from the Ancient Greek ( as @tim wood's post https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/634446)

Re: definitions of ???????? • (idi?t?s):

Quoting wiktionary

Noun
???????? • (idi?t?s) m (genitive ????????); first declension (Attic, Ionic, Koine)

a private person, one not engaged in public affairs
a private soldier, as opposed to a general
(adjectival use) private, homely
commoner, plebeian
uneducated person, layman, amateur
one who is not in the know, an outsider
an ignorant person, idiot
one who is awkward, clumsy
(in the plural) one's countrymen

Quoting tim wood

Them Greeks did some funny things with words.

Didn't they just :smile:

Quoting Banno

Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

Quoting Express news: Greek minister was right

GERMAN President Wolfgang Schäuble admitted former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis was "right" to call EU leaders "idiots" when he rebelled to the austerity measures imposed by the Brussels bloc on Greek citizens to solve the eurozone crisis.

Quoting Agent Smith

What's all the hullabaloo about making your kids, if you have one, stand on their own two feet, make the independent i.e. not have to rely on others?

Well if it really means not having to rely on others I wish them the best of luck. Modern society hangs together by relying on others, or are your kids not allowed to visit the supermarket, to call plumbers, travel the roads or take planes?

What they mean by standing on your own to feed is to think independently and critically. Kids are taught to put themselves 'out there', taking their place on the highway of life. It is exactly in interaction that they are independent and stand on their own two feet, being able to resist when necessary and argue their point. That exactly was the Greek ideal and we still honor it. How unfortunate it is then that we have a strand of thinking telling you you are all alone and all you should care for is yourself. It leads to contradictions, socially as well as psychologically. Firstly, the common good which enables people to thrive is seen as weak, causing us to bite the hand that feeds us. Secondly, success is portrayed as the product of your choice, but so is failure, transferring a huge burden of responsibilty for situations that are the product of luck and collective actuon far more than they are up to choice.

Quoting Amity

'In moderation as a poietis [poet], immoderately as an idiotis ,’ the ancient Athenian saying went.

I've yet to find this saying *

But quite a few wisdom quotes, including:

?? ??? ?? ?????? ????, ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????.
Your future will be good, if you arrange well the present.
— Isokrates, 436-338 BC, Ancient Greek rhetorician

https://best-quotations.com/ancient-greek-quotes.php?page=1

* Help! Which Ancient Greek philosopher might have said this ?
Or was it his wife ?

Quoting tim wood

Them Greeks did some funny things with words.

Private citizen= idiotes -> commoner -> pleb, chav, idiot. Similar derogatory shift in English.

I was taught that 'idiotes' meant private citizen and the concept was transferred metaphorically to mean 'living in a world of your own'. But I don't know.

Quoting Tobias

Well if it really means not having to rely on others I wish them the best of luck. Modern society hangs together by relying on others, or are your kids not allowed to visit the supermarket, to call plumbers, travel the roads or take planes?

I can't explain it any further.

Quoting Agent Smith

I can't explain it any further

What do you mean? Maybe you agree with my point above, or maybe not. Maybe you think it is pointless to explain it to me. Or maybe you just want to bow out of the thread... I did not notice any explanation in your posts above,

Quoting Tobias

What do you mean? Maybe you agree with my point above, or maybe not. Maybe you think it is pointless to explain it to me. Or maybe you just want to bow out of the thread... I did not notice any explanation in your posts above

When is an altruist out of a job?

Quoting Cuthbert

I was taught that 'idiotes' meant private citizen and the concept was transferred metaphorically to mean 'living in a world of your own'. But I don't know.

Oh, that's interesting. Did you learn Ancient Greek at school ?
I only covered Latin but managed to get as far as the AG alphabet in a lunch break :smile:
Comes in handy with covid categories - but O, why 'Omicron' ? - ??????? is the 15th letter...

Quoting Agent Smith

When is an altruist out of a job?

The man speaketh in riddles.... is there someone out there that can translate these sybline musings for me?

Reply to Tobias I wish I could do riddles. For some reason, riddles and (deliberate) obfuscation aren't my strong suit. :grin:

Quoting Tobias

It makes sense in the context of ancient Greek life. The highest form of life for the Greeks was political life. One leaves the household and engages in political affairs, affairs concerning the polis. An idiot (a person not involved in public affairs) does not do this and therefore also does not get to practice virtue, which for the anicent Greeks was attached to playing roles and roles are necessarily public. So yes not engaging in public life makes one an idiot.

Hmmm. 'One leaves the household and engages in political affairs'. 'One' would be a man, no ?
So, those left behind ( wives/children) taking care of home affairs/studying wouldn't get to practise virtue ?
This doesn't sound right - nor does the 'playing roles' bit.. and why 'necessarily public' ?
It would be helpful if citations were provided to support your understanding.

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As per: Quoting tim wood

...what I do find does not combine the notions of one's own interests at the expense of others.

The conclusion - ???????? being translated/interpreted as the derogatory 'selfish or useless'- doesn't follow.

From wiki:

Quoting Wiki: Idiot

Many political commentators, starting as early as 1856, have interpreted the word "idiot" as reflecting the Ancient Athenians' attitudes to civic participation and private life, combining the ancient meaning of 'private citizen' with the modern meaning 'fool' to conclude that the Greeks used the word to say that it is selfish and foolish not to participate in public life.[8][9][10][11][12][13] But this is not how the Greeks used the word.

It is certainly true that the Greeks valued civic participation and criticized non-participation. [b]Thucydides quotes Pericles' Funeral Oration as saying: "[we] regard... him who takes no part in these [public] duties not as unambitious but as useless" (??? ?? ????? ????? ????????? ??? ?????????, ???? ??????? ?????????).[14]

However, neither he nor any other ancient author uses the word "idiot" to describe non-participants, or in a derogatory sense;[/b] its most common use was simply a private citizen or amateur as opposed to a government official, professional, or expert.[15] The derogatory sense came centuries later, and was unrelated to the political meaning.[16][4][2]

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Still waiting for help with that alleged Ancient Greek saying, anyone ?
Quoting Amity

In moderation as apoietis [poet], immoderately as an idiotis ,

Quoting Amity

Still waiting for help with that alleged Ancient Greek saying, anyone ?

I had a look around net and found plenty of references to the saying but they all trace back to Varoufakis and stop with him. I have also looked at his book but unfortunately Varoufakis mentions the saying without giving a source.

Quoting emancipate

I have also looked at his book but unfortunately Varoufakis mentions the saying without giving a source.

Thanks so much, emancipate :up:
Pretty much what I suspected.
It [s]troubles[/s] annoys me when sources aren't given. Not good practice. Disappointing.

Quoting Banno

Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

This is awful. And by awful, do I mean filled with awe (its ancient use) or that it's terrible (its modern use)?

Must the OP have a point (an important meaning) to have a point (a sharp end, like on a pencil)?

Homonym equivocation games, right? My point being that the etymology of words doesn't command meaning, but usage does. What words mean in one time period or context can be different than in others.

Other words that have changed dramatically over time: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/articles/10-english-words-that-have-completely-changed-meaning/

Reply to Hanover

Right, it’s the etymological fallacy. A genius, then, is literally a tutelary spirit. Far from wisdom, it’s poor thinking.

I don't know but I think we should invite Varoufakis along to be a Guest Speaker.
And flay him alive.
Perhaps practise first on @Banno - but then again, with his inclinations...
Definitely should be held accountable for [s]his[/s] their sins :naughty:
What would the Ancient Greeks do ?

Quoting Amity

Hmmm. 'One leaves the household and engages in political affairs'. 'One' would be a man, no ?

Oh yessiree, they were men alright, men all the way, you betcha!

Quoting Amity

So, those left behind ( wives/children) taking care of home affairs/studying wouldn't get to practise virtue ?

Yes indeed and women were not considered rational, though Aristotle much to his credit, considered them partly so. Children were considered not rational yet, but being potentially rational, if they were male at least. So yes, they were initiated in political life and hence learned virtuous behaviour. Women also had virtues, just not those connected to reason, therefore necessarily of lesser quality than men's.

Quoting Amity

This doesn't sound right - nor does the 'playing roles' bit.. and why 'necessarily public' ?

Well, it might not sound right to you, but I am not trying to please you, I am just giving a rough sketch of howthe Greeks viewed political life. Roles were important n Greek life as the still are in virtue ethics. A good lawyer plays a different role than a good judge for instance. Roles are necessarily public because they are defined publically. In society we play social roles, espeicalliy in stratified Greek society.

Quoting Amity

It would be helpful if citations were provided to support your understanding.

Oh really, because that is, like, so bloody common on this philosophyforum. Well here you go: M.Sandel, (2009), Justice, What is the right thing to do?, Penguin books, Chapter 8 on Aristotle. (for the parts on political ife justice and 'telos')
T. W. Adorno, (1965). Metaphysics, concept and Problems, 2000 ed. Polity Press, especially lectures 1 through 5, for metaphysical and teleological thought in Aristotle.

It might be me, but I reckon them better sources than wikipedia...

Now, I am not saying I subscribe to Greek thought in these matters, just telling you what these concepts meant, as far as I know of course, not being part of ancient Greek culture. It goes without saying I do not support ancient Greek views on gener relations, nor would I endorse Aristotle's defense of slavery for that matter. That does not mean ancient Greek ideas are not worth studying as we have copied a lot from ancient Greek thought, as delivered to us by the Romans and the Jewish/Islamic scholars of the middle ages

Quoting Hanover

My point being that the etymology of words doesn't command meaning, but usage does. What words mean in one time period or context can be different than in others.

Yes, but words also have historic connotations and these connotations and implicit hierarchies are reiterated when these words are used. The changing meaning of words is not a procedure that runs willy nilly but a historical process that actually shows similarities as @Cuthbert, described for similar terms, like plebeian. The comoner becomes a derogatory term. Just as the whole word 'common' has attracted pejorative connotation.

Reply to Tobias
I'll focus on this:

Quoting Tobias

Roles were important n Greek life as the still are in virtue ethics. A good lawyer plays a different role than a good judge for instance. Roles are necessarily public because they are defined publically. In society we play social roles, espeicalliy in stratified Greek society.

The various roles humans play, for sure, important and as interesting now as ever.
They are not necessarily public.
The role of a good/bad teacher might be seen in public ( school ) but also in private ( symposium/home).

--------
Quoting Tobias

One leaves the household and engages in political affairs, affairs concerning the polis.
An idiot (a person not involved in public affairs) does not do this and therefore also does not get to practice virtue

The 'idiot' in Ancient Greek, ???????? as defined earlier included:

• a private soldier, as opposed to a general
• (adjectival use) private, homely
• one who is awkward, clumsy
• (in the plural) one's countrymen

Why would they not 'get to practise virtue' ?
'Practising virtue' as per Virtue Ethics involves the role of 'character' (having ideal traits) rather than playing a role or engaging in public politics.

--------

In any case, I'm done here. Games are being played; roleplaying or otherwise.
The point made well by @Hanover

Quoting Hanover

Homonym equivocation games, right? My point being that the etymology of words doesn't command meaning, but usage does. What words mean in one time period or context can be different than in others.

Quoting Amity

The various roles humans play, for sure, important and as interesting now as ever.
They are not necessarily public.
The role of a good/bad teacher might be seen in public ( school ) but also in private ( symposium/home).

No, the way roles are treated shifts over time. Not too long ago one stayed with the same employer all her life and identified with a certain profession, aptly called a 'beruf' in German, something to which you were called. Now it is much more common to switch careers and staying at the same employer is hardly heard off. With a certain role comes a certain status, especially in soceties that are highly stratified.

Quoting Amity

They are not necessarily public.
The role of a good/bad teacher might be seen in public ( school ) but also in private ( symposium/home).

I am not saying roles are only executed publically, they are defined in public, teaching is a social practice. The marks of quality are determined in te public arena. Maybe moreso for the Greeks tho
ugh then nowadays, that is my point.


Quoting Amity

a private soldier, as opposed to a general
(adjectival use) private, homely
one who is awkward, clumsy
(in the plural) one's countrymen

Why would they not 'get to practise virtue' ?
'Practising virtue' as per Virtue Ethics involves the role of 'character' (having ideal traits) rather than playing a role or engaging in public politics.

Of course words take on all sorts of meanings and develop over time. However, if you see the similarities of the various connotations in these different meanings, than its history is revealed. A private person, homely, does not get out much, will become awkward and clumsy because he does not get to realise his potential, which for the ancient Greeks was only realised in the polis. Private soldier admittedly is off, but I am thinking that, especially if the private solider is opposed to the general, the 'idiot' just obeys commands, does what he is told without question. That fits in nicely with the idea of the idiot as the private man, the man who actually did not have the means and luxury to enter into political (as in polis, concerning the polis) affairs. Usually indeed a country man, one residing outside the walls. They are the ones who do not have a say in how affairs are ran, a commoner who just toils.

The virtues, the ideal traits, were cultivated in Greek thought. They needed work. You acquired them in practice. However, in order to gain that practice, you would have to engage in it. The highest virtue, the one closest to the essence of man, was virtue of good political deliberation. Man was 'zoon politikon', a political animal.

I do still think you confuse me with an ancient Greek though, or think I agree with the picture painted, that is not the case. I don't know where your animosity comes from. I just think, contra Hanover, NOS and you apparently, that engaging in the genealogy of concepts and words is worthwhile.

Banno's OP, as I read it, links the idea of a certain crrent mentality, the mentality that one should look out for one's own, to a certain conception of life, caught in the term 'idiot'. The wise man realises he is not on his own. The idiot does not.

Merry Christmas :party:

Quoting Etymonline: Merry

merry (adj.)
Middle English mirie, from Old English myrge "pleasing, agreeable, pleasant, sweet, exciting feelings of enjoyment and gladness" (said of grass, trees, the world, music, song); also as an adverb, "pleasantly, melodiously," from Proto-Germanic *murgijaz, which probably originally meant "short-lasting," (compare Old High German murg "short," Gothic gamaurgjan "to shorten"), from PIE root *mregh-u- "short." The only exact cognate for meaning outside English was Middle Dutch mergelijc "joyful."

The connection to "pleasure" likely was via the notion of "making time fly, that which makes the time seem to pass quickly" (compare German Kurzweil "pastime," literally "a short time;" Old Norse skemta "to amuse, entertain, amuse oneself," from skamt, neuter of skammr "short"). There also was a verbal form in Old English, myrgan "be merry, rejoice." For vowel evolution, see bury (v.).

Not originally applied to humorous moods or speech or conduct, yet the word had a much wider senses in Middle English than modern: "pleasant-sounding" (of animal voices), "fine" (of weather), "handsome" (of dress), "pleasant-tasting" (of herbs). The evolution of the modern senses is probably via the meaning "pleased by a certain event or situation or state of things" (c. 1200). Of persons, "cheerful by disposition or nature; playfully cheerful, enlivened with gladness or good spirits," by mid-14c.

Merry-bout "an incident of sexual intercourse" was low slang from 1780. Merry-begot "illegitimate" (adj.), also "bastard" (n.) are in Grose (1785). Merrie England (now frequently satirical or ironic) is c. 1400, meri ingland, originally in a broader sense of "bountiful, prosperous." Merry Monday was a 16c. term for "the Monday before Shrove Tuesday" (Mardi Gras).

Christmas:
Quoting Etymonline: Christmas

Christmas (n.)

"Church festival observed annually in memory of the birth of Christ," late Old English Cristes mæsse, from Christ (and retaining the original vowel sound) + mass (n.2).

Written as one word from mid-14c. As a verb, "to celebrate Christmas," from 1590s. Father Christmas is attested in a carol attributed to Richard Smart, Rector of Plymtree (Devon) from 1435-77. Christmas-tree in the modern sense is attested by 1835 in American English, rendering German Weihnachtsbaum. Christmas cards were first designed in 1843, popular by 1860s; the phrase Christmas-card was in use by 1850. Christmas present is from 1769. Christmas Eve is Middle English Cristenmesse Even (c. 1300).

Quoting Banno

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers

Is it irony or you think he is indeed?

Idiot indeed has Greek origins from the word Tim also mentioned "???????". Which meant in ancient Greece "the one who doesn't care about the public issues (democracy etc) and looks only for his interests".
Usually they used it as a negative form of characterization for someone. But not with the meaning of " idiot". Not at all.
That meaning came from the use of the word in Latins. It changed through years and got the meaning it has now.

Quoting Banno

One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

What about If he just looks for his interests at no expense at all of others? Not taking advantage of anyone at all but also don't care to be a hero and save the world? Can you blame him too? Call him idiot?

Quoting Hanover

My point being that the etymology of words doesn't command meaning, but usage does. What words mean in one time period or context can be different than in others.

Indeed.

Quoting Tobias

Banno's OP, as I read it, links the idea of a certain crrent mentality, the mentality that one should look out for one's own, to a certain conception of life, caught in the term 'idiot'. The wise man realises he is not on his own. The idiot does not.

That was it. Thanks for your contribution. The idiots have set the zeitgeist, since at least the time of Thatcher and Raygun. Perhaps, one hopes, their time is done. If not, we all might be done.

Quoting Banno

That was it. Thanks for your contribution. The idiots have set the zeitgeist, since at least the time of Thatcher and Raygun. Perhaps, one hopes, their time is done. If not, we all might be done.

We're all done. As individual people are these days, there hasn't been more conformity ever before.

Quoting Banno

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers, sparked my curiosity by claiming that idiotis, in ancient Greek, was a derogatory term for one who refuses to think in terms of the common good

Reply to Amity

Funny, I just heard another unsourced version of this factoid: as the story went, there was a law in Sparta (rather than Athens) concerning political conflicts in the polis. Every citizen was obligated to choose a side; those who didn't were called ideos. They were subject to the seizure of property and exile.

Quoting Banno

On checking, it does mean "one's own".

reflect on the connection between 'idiosyncratic' and 'idiom'. One meaning I had heard is that it is someone who speaks a language understandable only to himself, or uses language in a way that is unintelligible to others. This was in connection to an analysis of Trump speak.

Quoting SophistiCat

Funny, I just heard another unsourced version of this factoid: as the story went, there was a law in Sparta (rather than Athens) concerning political conflicts in the polis. Every citizen was obligated to choose a side; those who didn't were called ideos. They were subject to the seizure of property and exile.

Explains why some states treat abstentions as a form of protest; a few minor adjustments here and there and those who refuse to cast their ballot are rebels, subversives, traitors, whatnot.

That whole notion of idiocy is just invented to direct life as seems suited to the ones using it.

Reply to Banno Reply to AgentTangarine "Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot." Remarkably stupid thing to say. If the interests of others are evil, whether its causing misery for a billion or killing a million, why is the person that acts on a contrary interest an idiot?

This forum is an insult to philosophy - does anyone here know a forum that discusses things worth discussing?Not mere "socratic" (/idiotic) discussion???

Quoting peoplearesmart

This forum is an insult to philosophy

But it allows for rational discussion and beneficial growth of ideas.

Reply to Tobias :fire:

Reply to peoplearesmart :mask: Idi?t?s ask the darnedest questions ...

Reply to 180 Proof @peoplearesmart joined two weeks ago, apparently for the sole purpose of making the above comment.

Presumably they are out there looking after themselves somewhere.

Th most obvious Idi?t?s at present are perhaps the sovereign citizens.

Quoting Banno

Th most obvious Idi?t?s at present are perhaps the sovereign citizens.

"They believe that laws only apply to them if they agree to them". :roll:

Quoting Tobias

It makes sense in the context of ancient Greek life

What should we do about the Spartans Nicholas, we just voted 50/50? NO! I’m going to sit here and eat my olives. -Two greeks 300bc.

It’s not a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Greeks valued men who were not self-obsessed and willing to discuss political questions for the benefit of their respective city-state. Of course, there were people who had more influence. Not thinking up well thought out decisions could lead to horrific outcomes. If someone didn’t want to (or couldn’t I guess) they were an idiot. I think i read in a old book that it ment someone who didn't understand thier education but your explanation makes more sense!

Quoting Agent Smith

So egoism is idiocy. I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out. I've seen people being called out for thinking for someone else. Doing that is considered a sign of arrogance. Every man for himself, people, every man for himself.

I do understand the urge to seek knowledge for the benefit of oneself, that written, questioning the motive of altruism is for my mind a sign of true idiocy. Where does it lead, does it make you feel superior?

Quoting Agent Smith

Altruism is, all said and done, just a fancy way of being selfish...

“You where the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I thought the goal of philosophy was to end all evil. If such a thing is even possible. I don’t see how egocentrism and greed is of any use in doing that, quite the contrary, in my experience it makes people more likely to ignore and not support people who are in dire need of understanding.

And what role does the cultural capitalistic feedback loop play in this? There is an entity out there that wants you to focus on yourself. Don’t even dare to think of the homeless man who smells like pee as an actual human trapped in a horrific fate. He is below you, a degenerate of no use to society, of no use to you.

Reply to trogdor The existing (scientific) paradigms, especially the Theory of Evolution, can't be used to make sense of altruism (re The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins). That's all.

Moreover, the Tao is, if you'll permit me to humanize it, unbelievably wise: the idea, it seems, is when offered a choice like this (altruism) or that (selfishness), one must have the gumption to ask "why not both?"

:smile:

Folks, there's a bit that keeps getting left out. I'll bold it for you:

Quoting Banno

One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

Quoting Agent Smith

The existing (scientific) paradigms, especially the Theory of Evolution, can't be used to make sense of altruism (re The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins). That's all.

Perhaps the natural sciences can't yet but that is not their purpose. In the social sciences on the other hand there have been attempts to construct elaborate models of thinking, culture, ethics; but as it seems humans have a hard time agreeing on things if they are not based on pure empirical observation, which is a phenomenon almost exclusive the natural sciences, that is in itself prone to human error. Perhaps science have dogmatically replaced God in your mind. But then I guess we all need something to believe is real not to fall into madness.

Quoting Banno

One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

Back to the topic at hand, the Greek idiots. Humans are social animals. And most people have a desire (or whatever you want to call it) to be liked, at least by what they consider their community, which complicates things in modern society. I’m basing this on my common sense (who wants to be disliked by their people). Some are born without empathy, some lose it thought trauma and what not; psychopaths, narcissists, sociopaths. With that in mind; someone looking out for them self at the expense of others is an idiot given that the victim’s (for a lack of a better word) is part of the same community and understands what is happening. In this case the idiot will most likely be shunned by that community, and if it is a tightly knit one that could be really bad for the idiot. Example: "Nicholas, why did you say that? Everyone is gonna dislike you now you idiot?" - greek 300bc.
I’m thinking about some of the Native-American tribes pre conquest who had beautiful ethics for both human and animal, do no harm, live as one with nature etc. Being liked by some community and having a "good time" seems like something humans want in most cases, except for the occasional hermit. I don’t see how digging deeper into the cold biology of it makes this truth any more comprehensible. Even in a hypothetic Greek citystate filled with rapey, sadistic pigs, going against the norm is idiocy, in the context of social wellbeeing and survival. So yeah i'd say there is immense wisdom in that and that key here is the defintion of expence.

Like I mentioned the larger and more complex a system is, think globalized world and the internet, the same concept could be applied but everything gets much messier, because so many things could be considered right or wrong; ideology, values, beliefs, convictions. So, I guess a lack of understanding is what constitutes an idiot given the definition Reply to Banno provided, and it does oddly enough make sense in the context of human nature. For the average Greek 2008, the bankers were the idiots, the bankers just cashed out.

Quoting Agent Smith

...when offered a choice like this (altruism) or that (selfishness), one must have the gumption to ask "why not both?"

I’m a working-class guy living in the west, not a single mother of five working a factory in Bangladesh. To answer this question: because altruistic decency is better for everyone, it makes people happier. I fail to see how a world of purely egoistic identity derived pleasure helps the majority. What about the people who are, as you put it, biologically incapable to fend for themselves in this Sodom and Gomorra you dream of? Also most of what is cosider sick in this day and age was done, and is beeing done in the name of personal pleasue and selfishness. I dont see why we as a specie should exercise that muscel.

Quoting trogdor

Perhaps the natural sciences can't yet but that is not their purpose. In the social sciences on the other hand there have been attempts to construct elaborate models of thinking, culture, ethics; but as it seems humans have a hard time agreeing on things if they are not based on pure empirical observation, which is a phenomenon almost exclusive the natural sciences, that is in itself prone to human error. Perhaps science have dogmatically replaced God in your mind. But then I guess we all need something to believe is real not to fall into madness.

Yeah, possible a case of the drunkard's search principle.

Reply to Banno Quoting Banno

Yanis Varoufakis, belov'd of German bankers, sparked my curiosity by claiming that idiotis, in ancient Greek, was a derogatory term for one who refuses to think in terms of the common good.

On checking, it does mean "one's own".

Here's wisdom: One who looks out for thier own interests at the expense of others is, quite literally, an idiot.

As I Greek I can tell you that Varoufakis is an anathema to German bankers ,the European bank and the IMF. He was the only minister of economics who during his time didn't accept loans from the troika.
The term ??????? (from where the English word idiots comes from) was used to identify those who abstained from the political events and decisions about their city state.
That was indeed a derogatory term used in Ancient Athens, where a democratic system allowed and demanded the participation of "all" citizens. The argument was... by not participating in the political life of the city that would allowed speculators to force their will on a weakened system.

Reply to Streetlight Quoting Streetlight

You can hear it in "idiosyncratic" or "ideolect". Something personal, quirky.

you meant idiolect....

Quoting Nickolasgaspar

Varoufakis is an anathema to German bankers

Lost irony.

Reply to Banno So you claim that you are more familiar with Greek politics than those who live in the country and follow the events.......lol whatever.

Reply to Nickolasgaspar What? :rofl:

Sometimes folk say one thng while meaning the exact other. It's a form of humour...

It's called irony, or if mocking, sarcasm.

Must be a celtic thing.

Reply to Banno
Quotes are a good way to highlight your irony, sarcasm, mocking etc....just saying.

To the OP...

Now that's a praiseworthy resurrection if there is such a thing! Greeks didn't do funny stuff with words. Those who came later are the ones who rendered the term meaningless.

Quoting Agent Smith

I prefer a system in which everyone is egoistic, the way it actually is I believe, and it all works out.

If everyone is actually egoistic, then it makes no sense whatsoever to talk about preferring a system in which everyone is egoistic. It makes sense to talk about preferring a system in which everyone is egoistic, but only because not everyone is.

Some people help elderly people with tasks for no other reason than to be helpful. While it feels good to do such things, that feeling is not what motivates the action. Rather, it just an unintended consequence of helping others out.

Reply to creativesoul Point made, point taken. However, you're conflating egoism with, my best guess, freedom!