Holiday Short Story Competition Discussion and Poll
[b]POLL CLOSED: PLEASE CONTINUE DISCUSSION HERE: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11340/short-story-competition-discussion
Read the stories here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/38/short-story-competition-2
THE FINAL POLL RESULTS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
Read the stories here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/38/short-story-competition-2
THE FINAL POLL RESULTS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
Comments (539)
How about change rule 9 to “whichever story receives the second most votes wins.”?
Close... The actual suggestion of weighted voting last time round would allow for that. Or at least for more votes of second than first to win.
Suppose a poll(?) is affixed to the bottom of each submission with three options
3 [ ] "I enjoyed it."
2 [ ] "It's okay."
1 [ ] "Not for me."
and each members (reader) picks only one option per submission resulting in a total score for each submission that is hidden until the end of the contest. A member (reader) can only see his / her vote until the end, then all scores are (manually?) compiled and listed highest to lowest, etc. CAVEAT: An author who votes for his / her own story to be identified and his / her vote score subtracted from the his / her story's total score on the final tally. (Even better – disable voting of each author just for his / her own story.)
Is this doable? preferable?
Partly doable. We can do a poll in each story, but we can't hide the votes or scores and we can't stop someone from voting for their own story or identify those who do.
Quoting 180 Proof
Yep, this would be a manual thing.
Preferable? I don't know. It's an interesting idea and I quite like it, but then I don't see much of a problem with the way it was done last time.
Each person votes for his 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place stories, with each #1 getting 3 points, #2 getting 2 points, and #3 getting 1 point, with the story with the most cumulative points winning. Votes are cast in a word document submitted to Baden, which are not opened and counted until the voting deadline passes. This method also eliminates a person voting for himself.
We'll of course trust Baden not to open ballots early, to count ballots correctly, and not to share who voted for who.
:up: 'Each member (voter) submit a tally of his / her votes via PM to Baden' would work better.
They use video surveillance at ballot processing facilities. Perhaps a live video stream of Baden could be posted in the OP during the voting period. It could be just like watching live stream zoo animals.
Do I have to wear clothes?
How about posting a thread only for voting where the items in the poll are the titles of the stories. Only one vote per poster, if the aim is to vote for a favorite story.
This way, everything is in one thread, and no further manual labor required for counting the votes.
Setting up this Google form took 5 minutes and has the 1->5 "hated it" to "loved it" rating scale thing. Also automatically derives a spreadsheet.
No user authentication linked to this website though.
Might be detrimental to quantity and quality of entrants though. Plus, I used up my Christmas story already.
Alright, I've come up with another way. Everyone sends in their votes by a Word document and password protects them. After the deadline, we hold a vote as to who is to count the votes. Once that vote is complete, we will submit our passwords to the person who is to count the votes. That person (maybe a naked Baden, maybe a seductively dressed Hanover) then counts the votes, at which time we gather again and vote on whether to approve the count. If we don't approve the count, we vote on who we think would make the most provocative Mr. January in the upcoming TPF Calendar. Following that, we then await a motion from the floor asking that we reconvene the tallying of the votes that we forgot about during our ADD moment when we starting talking about calendars.
In the event we cannot get an approval of the votes, we will approve the votes anyway because there really never was a good reason for the additional vote to approve the votes.
I think a Christmas theme would be good. I'm going to write about my dead drunk father who used to dress in a reindeer suit but he died during Christmas, so I dressed in his beat up outfit so that my young stupid brother wouldn't know his father dropped dead on Christmas. And something about a ring.
Sounds cool. Benkei would love it. :cheer:
Otherwise, sending PMs to Baden with a strict format would work. Either scoring each story or else listing your top three.
5 point ranking scales from good to bad have biases toward the extremes and middle. You nevertheless want to give people a middle (odd number) so that they can express indifference and mild positivity/negativity. If you give someone an odd numbered scale like that (from negative to positive), only the aggregate of people can express indifference when you average the scores.
If you don't give them a middle, you're not removing the "central response" bias, you're actually making the interior of the scale measurements more noisy!
Hot take.
Quoting jamalrob
It's an interesting scale! How would you sum it? Not for me = 0, it was ok = 1, loved it = 2?
Maybe a Tim Burtonish Christmas theme. :death:
Interesting, but feels like a clunky workaround.
EDIT: wait, isn't this how it was done the first time around? In which case, sure, I thought that was ok.
3 [ ] "I enjoyed it."
2 [ ] "It's okay."
1 [ ] "Okay, but not for me"
0 [ ] "Not for me."
as per
Quoting 180 Proof
e.g.
Hey Baden,
My votes
story A – 1
story B – 0
story C – 3
story D – 1
story E – 2
180 Proof
1 - I enjoyed it.
2 - That was fun. I liked the character development of Sara.
3 - That story didn't make sense.
4 - That was the best story I ever read.
5 - TLDR
6 - I enjoyed it.
7 - What did you mean when you said "Give him the pickle"?
I'd therefore like to withdraw my suggestion and I hope it hasn't already been implemented, costing you valuable time.
Then I forward the data to my serf, Hansover, who, straining the capacities of his petrified brain, counts everything up and delivers the results. OK. :up:
... I will go along with whatever consensus others reach here as an antidote to my previous dictatorial stance so long as said consensus is not unbearably awkward to enact.
"Holiday" is the word people use for Christmas when they don't want to say Christmas.
Let's use that then. "Christmas" I used out of habit rather than thought.
The self esteem mapping is not preserved under affine transformations. : (
Very well, the Holy Day Short Story Competition.
Besides, unless the winner actually gets a prize the whole voting process is more just for fun than anything. Yeah I'd probably donate $50 or so if someone else would be willing to do the same, make it more interesting
Maths comedy gold.
Quoting Noble Dust
It's a good thought. A simple poll like last time, but pinned on the main page instead of just the Lounge, would probably get the most votes. That is my two penn'orth.
Not only fun, but also glory!
You could call it a winter solstice story but that would exclude everyone who did not know Christmas is a blending of many cultural traditions and that many people recognized the winter solstice as the turning point from days getting shorter to days getting longer. :lol: And things would never get done if every time a decision needed to be made, everyone threw in a new consideration.
5,000 or less, and it doesn’t have to be a Christmas story.
Wow, that is a lot of words. Thank you for correcting me.
Letters to the editor used to be 500 words and went down to 250 words. That is a real challenge.
What do we win? Just wondering how much effort I need to put into beating you?
£1,000[sup]1[/sup]
[sup]1[/sup] [sub]This claim not endorsed by TPF management.[/sub]
Too late, my mind’s been corrupted.
Makes it easier to tabulate, too, and no extra programming is needed. Simple program makes it harder for the hackers to alter the vote numbers.
One reason for the low voter turnout may be that people truly think their own story is the best. Therefore they abstain from voting. That factor alone eliminates potentially as many votes as there are entries.
An excellent start already. That drama directed towards a story concept is already golden.
Assemble an interdepartmental committee to assess the feasibility of deciding on a candidate means of collective decision making.
I'll give it another day or two. Unless some alternative emerges that's easy to implement and is supported by a majority of the contributors here, I'll do that, realizing it won't please everyone, but it's primarily about having a bit of festive fun so no need to sweat it imho.
I read that as "interdimensional" and immediately thought of the Council of Ricks.
This hybrid-proposal from @Oliver5 & myself seems simple enough for member-readers to register their preferences with you via PM while allowing for weighted voting which, I think, more accurately reflects a range of subjective preferences.
Yeah, it's not an automated process, but it's certainly not a tedious slog to compile manually either. If you don't want to do, my man, have everyone send me a PM with a tally of their votes when the time comes and I'll do the grunt, clerical work of compiling them all and then PMing the final vote totals to you for your Moderator's once-over before posting them in a public thread.
It is easier to do it like we did this past summer but, speaking for myself, the lack of weighted voting (and my very poor showing too!) deflated me a bit at the end.
If we go this way, maybe we could both do it to help confirm the result. But, informally then, what does the crowd want? Please register your preference between 180's suggestion and the orginal voting method below and let that be the final determination. I'll give it a day or so and then go with whichever gets the most support.
If memory serves, you were simultaneously ignored and pilloried for whatever you came up with, so it's probably best forgotten.
If we're going to vote on how we're going to vote, in order to be consistent, we need to vote on how we're going to vote on how we're going to vote. If you can decree how we are going to vote on how we're going to vote, then why not just decree how we are to vote so we don't have to vote on how we're going to vote?
I think my questions implicate deeper questions about when dictatorships are superior to democracies and might warrant a separate thread.
Agree? (Vote yes or no)
Hah! The Charles Bukowski was right.
One more thing I'll say is that while the voting systems proposed by @180 Proof and @Hanover look good, I suspect they'll result in fewer votes than a pinned poll. Many people wouldn't bother, if it meant they had to send a PM or vote for every story separately.
Yeah I agree; I'm more interested in a higher voter turnout than a system that allows the TPF faithful to vote with more nuance while isolating any potential casual voters. I don't understand the desire for more nuance. I may not even contribute a story this time around.
Now, that's a big Nuance. A Nuance of Biblical Proportions.
That's pretty much the look I was going for. :cool:
Quoting jamalrob
That's a fair concern.
Quoting Noble Dust
There's not yet a strong demand for change anyhow, unless there is, we're going to stick with the original method.
Seems to me a feature and not a bug.
Accepting stories now, have two so far. Keep them coming. :up:
:sweat: :up:
A silver lining... :razz:
Let's say the 23rd. Give everyone a month and have them up for that day that shall not be named. :grin:
The anniversary of the founding of the Kingdom of Hungary?
Thought that was Pancake Tuesday? :chin:
Confirmed!
Pancake Tuesdays would invariably fall on Pancaca Fridays. When the lot of pancakes eaten on Tuesday would get freshly squeezed again.
Basically, marketeers are liars who could not make the grade to become lawyers, and failed to fake congeniality well enough to make it in politics.
Present company of barristers and solicitors, marketeers and leaders of powerful nations are always excepted.
I just want to know the final date for entries. You know the procrastinator's motto, never do today what can be put off until tomorrow.
Alright, thanks.
Well......
Interesting. Technically this would include banned members. I mean, can't argue with the number one rule. What if one enters, and wins, would they perhaps win their freedom? Oh what a fun and joyous idea, and quite appropriate in a time of giving and holiday cheer. :yum:
Think I'll play the grinch and give that a thumbs down. :lol:
Quoting Baden
Actually, I think non-subscribers can't send files. You could get around this by sending a link to a shared Google Drive file or something along those lines. Keep the entries coming anyhow. Need some more to make this work!
I think multiple entries allowed by any author would alleviate this problem.
And create others. I'd rather wider participation than a competition monopolised by a couple of posters.
Maybe create an incentive?
Winner gets to write in a particular font of their choosing! Or maybe we can have a virtual trophy room, where the winners are eternally celebrated.
Hell no.
What about colour? Bright yellow, Neon Pink, If only for a week.
You can't tell me you wouldn't want to write your philosophical accounts in neon pink.
I noticed that most solutions in this world create problems that hadn't existed before the solution were created and applied.
This may have changed: different tentative, or firm deadline.
No worries, 23rd December.
:up:
I probably shouldn't send it.
@Banno@180 Proof@Michael@Caldwell@frank@T Clark@unenlightened@Shawn@ArguingWAristotleTiff@Noble Dust@Srap Tasmaner@Bitter Crank@Ciceronianus
As the new marketing director, I'm summoning each of you randomly selected people to do 2 things:
1. Write a short story for the upcoming competition.
2. Send this note to 3 people.
The person who convinces the most people to enter will win the Big Door Prize. That's some shit, right? The Big Door Prize.
Get to work!
@Baden, how'm I doing so far?
If it can it be soft porn, I'll consider writing.
I'd expect nothing less.
I could use a new front door to my apartment because my un-conscientious roommates violently slam it shut to the point where it sometimes won't unlock. They also don't recycle. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but count me in.
Btw , you're impossible to tag because of the space in your name and the generic nature of "the" as the first word in your name. Agree?
Ha! Same here. But I did write a story last time, and I'm trying to write another.
I enjoyed "Hitchhikers", if that gives you any encouragement.
Thanks. The rocks bouncing around in my brain are even weirder this time around. We'll see. Are you entering?
Hell yeah.
Nice bossa nova on Imaginary Voices btw.
Just let it percolate in your unconscious.
https://www.creative-writing-now.com/short-story-ideas.html
If those don't work, try picture prompts:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/learning/over-140-picture-prompts-to-inspire-student-writing.amp.html
If those don't work, just go back to your Play-Doh.
Nice. I felt like I was there.
:up:
Take that mediocre or worse idea and write it down well. You don't even need to worry about style or embellishment or drama or nuttin'; just write precisely and concisely and succinctly that mediocre idea. And you may find a brilliant piece.
No pressure? Obviously the book's setting is in outer space.
:grin: :up:
:clap:
You were there! Should I have mentioned that?
Once upon a time there was a boy called Robert. He was named after the character in Struwelpeter because Hanover was there and he could fly. But he never did. the end.
It adds depth, I think, but somehow it doesn't flow so well.
Chapter 2.
Hanover's mother is a fish.
The end.
Now it flows - you can tell by the fish.
Can it be really bizarre prose?
There is no requirement that you write coherently or logically. I think there's a prohibition from speaking in poetry or writing a screen play. If you do violate the rules, the worst thing that can happen is that you lose the competition and not get the Big Door Prize.
Reminds me of a song.
What would I do with a Big Door?
That's the great thing about a prize like that - you can do what you like with it, even including nothing at all. In fact that's a great idea for a story; "How winning the Big Door prize changed my life, and how having a Big Door not to open makes all the difference."
And the drum roll. I'll be here all night.
That's the best I got with door jokes.
She flies, but she doesn't soar.
That was a good one.
If you felt that, soft porn will be lost :roll:
In order to face one must say it is a lot more than it seems upon facing, otherwise expressions are dull and made up. Try ordering the assembly in some other manner and it may backup you in the wind, send all the regards to your feral friend who dies twice in good may.
I'm vain so it has to be anonymous anonymous. I might submit something, hopefully you'll accept it without knowing who submitted it.
Quoting Hanover
Due date is December 23rd. Less than 10 days. I'll try. I can't write porn -- sex is beautiful and sacred to me. I can't write comedy -- at least not intentionally, it has to be natural. I can't write horror -- I consume horror but can't properly convey fear in words.
But I'll try.
Uriah Carr
That's right, and he'll know it's from you so you don't need to include your name.
There's more to literature than porn, comedy, and horror.
Or is there? Discuss.
Quoting jamalrob
Well depends on what you define as literature. These three genres are the only types of books I can read without falling asleep, so the rest might as well not exist to me.
Mystery, spionage, foklore, and of course the all-time favorite - slasher-murder stories. :smile:
And yet you read Stanislaw Lem recently.
I had a friend told me that it was a pretty decent book and not nap-inducing, so I tried it out.
She can give some good recommendations once in a while. Other than that outlier though, I definitely wouldn't say I'm the most avid reader.
Little miss Muffet she sat on her tuffet, eating her curds and whey
Along came a spider who sat down beside her
And frightened miss Muffet away
Little miss Muffet then got ill from that buffet
And her life soon ebbed away.
But the doctor was there and within the breadth of a hair
Miss Muffet gained back her health
But when the bill came due Miss muffet was screwed
Because her wealth was taken away.
"Two thousand dollars for some aspirin" she sighed
"What kind of society is this?"
"Someone must be taking the piss."
Little miss Muffet sat on a tuffet,
eating her curds and whey
Along came a spider who sat down beside her
And queried, "What's in the bowl, bitch?"
Don't say arachnophobia
Unless Barack is phonin' ya
He'll spider away
Those curddles and whey
Until he's got his bone in ya
(I do not support this political message)
2.
Little Miss Muffet sat on a Muppet
Eating a muffin, but she dropped it.
Along came a sniper with a question to ask her,
And queried, but after he shot her.
3.
Little Miss Muffet / 3.1.1 sat on her muff, / 3.1.2 was a fine lass
And wriggled to show / 3.2.1 she was tuff. / 3.2.2 off her ass.
Along came a miner no longer a minor,
And queried if she could please mind her
Manners.
It's always arachnophobia
Around the love of sophia.
Must not get caught on the Web
On the well-reasoned horns of a dilemma.
Fine, I'll write yet another autobiography.
This time please try and include yourself.
You can't put people in stories, they're not words.
But then @Hanover is all talk and no substance, so I guess he's an exception.
touchee.
some corollaries:
You can take a boy out of the story, but you can't put the boy into the story.
You can store the boy outside the story, but you can't make him climb up a storey.
A person can be written about in a story, but a story can't be written by any of the characters in the story.
There could be many different characters in a story, but you can't easily avoid (only through hard work) repeating writing the same characters. There is a theory in literary criticism according to which in any story written in the English language the maximum number of different characters can't exceed 26.
Maybe if you don't believe in punctuation.
What's my moniker?
Punctuation is an archaic superstition.
Are you writing a story this *time around? I never told you that I almost voted for yours, because it made me laugh out loud, which takes a lot.
BTW, I liked two or three of the stories better than mine the last time. They were well-rounded, complete, and well-written. One of them I still remember, it was a narration, and a kind of "telling" not "showing", but it was so clear and unadorned, that I liked it. I like it when a form or a content is straight against the currently supported ideals of what a short story should be like, and yet it does a job at it that is unexpected, so good. In fact, there was a very difficult decision to make at the end which to vote for. This is why I supported the idea of multiple votes per each member, but I do realize and accept that administering that would be a programming nightmare.
Goes hand in hand with music. All great music, classical to hit parade, have a hitch that made them trailblazers.
My favourite example of this is "Gimme Shelter" by the Rolling of Stones. A musician friend of mine, quite a learned feller, told us one day that there is a tenet in music composing, namely, that a song should never, never, never, but never start with... he knows the name of the concept, I don't. Then immediately after that he said that Gimme Shelter starts off that way.
BTW, my four favourite Stones songs are: (no order, they are equally great): 2120 South Michigan Avenue; Emtpy Heart; Gimme Shelter; and Jumpin' Jack Flash. The first three are bouncy, jumpy; the last one is more sophisticated. The notes bounce up from the floor and won't stay down.
Half a dozen or so I think.
And yes, deadline tomorrow!
Translates to Thursday, eastern standard time (US) as ?
Midnight UTC, which would be 7pm EST.
I'm pretty sure UT stands for urinary tract. Not sure of the C.
C is for coordination. The male version of menstrual synchrony I guess. Do you follow Baden's pee cycle or is it the other way around?
Done. Can’t wait to have that brand new door installed.
Depends on how drunk Santa gets.
Probably just a new Sub forum 'Short Story Competition II' or something?
The animals in the fable were all cynical, worldly-wise world-weary creatures. The holy family exhibited no particular holiness. How to get the shepherds and the suits from the Far East into the story hadn't jelled.
Maybe next year. But I won't be Charles Dickens or David Sedaris in 2022, either. In the meantime,
MERRY CHRISTMAS
A BETTER NEW YEAR THAN THIS ONE
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/38/short-story-competition-2
PLEASE CHECK YOUR STORY IS PRESENT AND CORRECT BEFORE I POST THE VOTING POLL! (WITHIN THE NEXT DAY OR TWO)
Nooo! The surprise is for after you damned fool.
(forgive me; it's Christmas and I am a tad tipsy.)
Wow - what wonderful gifts Santa brought down the chimney - 15!
Thanks for making it a Merry Reading Christmas - the Long Unwrap begins...
Now, where are my notes from last time round...
From @Noble Dust's 4-point bare outline; a short story has to:
1. Draw me in :yawn: :point: :sparkle:
2. Keep me there :eyes: :fire: :party:
3. Make me feel something :lol: :fear: :love: :scream: :vomit: :hearts:
4. Make me think :confused: :chin: :brow: :nerd:
with positively pleasing phrases :up: :cool: :100:
But 15 !!!
I think I'll start with the most intriguing titles first...hmmm...or maybe random...or...or...
The brightest, shiniest wrapping paper or the plain brown with string?
Note to self: don't judge a pressie by its cover and it's not just about my usual preferences.
Open up with care, for a springy surprise :monkey:
Thanks to all who dare :starstruck:
:yikes: :pray: :cry:
Sees the sun going down
And the world spinning round -- The Beatles
Plus it should make you cry with joy or laugh with joy, or cry with pain that goes away; give you insight, while you're inside, what for you it caters is, a deep sorrow of catharsis.
:smile:
Please don't hold your breath. This is Christmas. This Santa is taking an LFT test before visiting sister...waiting, waiting...
...
Yay, negative !!
Saddle up the reindeer
Ho, ho, ho....off I will jolly well go...
Short story cosy-up later...looking forward to that and the inevitable guessing game.
Whodunnit :chin:
Oh. My. God.
That too ? :groan:
Too many spoil the broth for other readers?
Crikey - maybe I'll just leave a few :up: :rofl: or :scream:
Help ! @Baden @jamalrob - anybody...
Thanks. Breathes sigh of relief...
Well, not quite. Because the story must also stir, to the point that the reader's entire body shakes in the sobbing cry he lets out. He must turn his face to the sky, and cry with blackened tongue humankind's desperate call for help. The reader must writhe in pain from the joy of seeing the lovers reunite, the evil stepmother circumcised, the old sage vilified and Bambi licking her surrogate mother, Roger. The reader, having read the story and under its influence, must run to the window, rip it open and bazooka-barf all the sins and vile bile that has accumulated in his system, released by the effect of the story, and start his healing that will ultimately put him on the road to Nirvana.
That's what a short story must do.
I need another of what Santa is having...
:party:
You're funny. In an endearing way.
You say that now.
But will you still love me tomorrow, huh ?
The Shirelles Will you still love me tomorrow
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cnPlJxet_ac
Putting the poll up tomorrow!
Every emotion has its fifteen minutes of fame, too. Center stage. Limelight.
The Shirelles were lip syncing, and doing a horrible job at it. I watched the video.
Even with sincerity and with total devotion to your special one, all the world is still nothing but a stage.
Love is based on trust, and trust can never be betrayed... except by another love, that is even stronger.
I know I am pontificating and rightfully so. Because I am an expert at this subject matter. Because... and this is the unadulterated truth: because I haven't got the slightest clue what love is.
That's about the long and short of it.
The time and effort you put into commentary is awesome both for the readers and the authors. :pray:
Oh. Wow. Thanks for the encouragement.
3 down, 12 to go.
Hmm. Another 4 days ?
Voting to end when ?
In time for a New Year's Do :party:
"It's not winning, but participation that's important." Manifesto by the Committee of Modern Olympic Games, cca 1893.
Not sure, in time for New Year might be a bit short no? What does everyone think?
what about a week and a half? I don't know for everyone else but for me it'll probably take a while to choose which ones my favourite.
Yeah, there were 12 stories last time. I think we were given 2 weeks to vote ?
I certainly needed that time :up:
Please give it two weeks plus a few days: discounts for the post-party sickness and pre=party drunkennes. Like time for time out during soccer matches.
Tentatively, let's say two weeks from tomorrow then, a Sunday. Weekend seems a good time for folks to get their final votes in.
:up:
Excellent :smile:
The 9th January 2022, yay...
:heart: :sparkle:
That's good!
I want to say, thanks to the writers who contributed.
:up:
Maybe. Maybe not. What do you think?
Poll is up btw, folks.
Oh god. Only one choice? This is gonna be so hard ahaha...
I know...
I just hope it doesn't funnel into one or two stories, because all of them were seriously good.
Too bad. Now my spirit sinks...[s]might[/s] will give this meaningless voting a miss.
In fact. Fuck the lot of it.
There's no harm in the voting aspect as long as we don't take it too seriously and I don't see any reason to.
From my point of view - as a reader - the whole quality experience is marred by the farce that is the quantitative voting system. Only to have a single vote is...well...you know the arguments against so I won't repeat.
Last time round, only 28 votes for 12 entries. This time, there are 15 entries...well done all :cool:
I hope that more readers' comments make up for any disappointment if votes don't reflect all your effort.
Of course, some readers are also writers with a wealth of experience so I'm looking forward to reading their comments. Thanks :100:
For me, the appearance of the poll so early - before all the entries have had a chance to be properly read and discussed - is a mistake. In the midst of savouring the stories, this poll is like an unwelcome guest crashing the party. But that's just me...I'll get over it :party:
:100: DITTO.
:up: Thanks.
For me though, it doesn’t really affect my enjoyment of the stories and I’m looking forward to seeing more discussion.
Exactly.
Quoting jamalrob
Ditto.
Quoting jamalrob
Yeah, well. It did stop me in my tracks...like a bucket of ice dumped over my head...but hey, there are positives. Champagne chilling for... [s]the winner and all the runners-up[/s] ALL THE WINNERS ! :party:
Still, it has to be said...my enthusiasm has dimmed...no avoiding that...
If you're taking the poll seriously, you're doing this to yourself. To me, it's just a fun addendum. Whether I "win" or get no votes isn't going to bother me. I'm more interested in the comments. We're not all grade schoolers who need to be given As because our friends got As, right? Especially when the teachers are... our friends. :nerd:
The poll is as much fun as a farce. You kill me :lol: :rofl: :smirk:
I can't remember the ideas already offered re ways to vote. I do remember they were kinda dismissed as not being viable. So, how else could we make it interesting ?
I'd be fascinated by reading the writers' comments about the stories - even giving them marks out of 10 for various elements. Comedic, etc...
Or just a big emoticon with a few comments would do...whatever...
Just a thought. Whatever *shrugs*
Yes, exactly, a fun farce. :100:
Was thinking maybe there's a cultural element at play here. Nothing is going to make me care much about the results of the poll because to me the 'competition' is not important while the experience of reading the stories and comments is. You seem to agree 100% with me and yet we also seem to be at loggerheads. Is this a transatlantic communication issue? :chin:
Do ya understand the word 'Eejit' ? :razz:
We could have a short story "experience" rather than "competition" the next time round and limit it to comments rather than votes if ppl want that. I'm open to whatever is the most popular thing to do. I just want ppl to like me. And hate @Hanover. Is that too much to ask?
:scream:
See my previous post re writers
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/635696
Not an either/or.
Yeah, I get that. I think some writers take part because they are in competition with themselves, even if with nobody else. It's fun. They want to see what they can create and compare.
And yes, I should shut up now :zip:
I'm intrigued by the writers' experience of the whole process of participation.
Only some give feedback...
I never listen to a word I say, so nobody else should :kiss:
This reminds me of my favourite joke, which I attribute to my Dad, although as far as I know it might have been invented long before. He says something, then the conversation meanders away from his point, and I say "sorry, what were you saying?" He replies, "I don't know, I wasn't listening."
Quoting Amity
I guess the participants can be more open about that once the identity of the authors is revealed.
I like that some give comments throughout...but some might feel they can't do that...until the end.
By then, though, they might not give a shit !
OK. Enough already. Ciao :cool:
:rofl:
It's not just you.. it's me, too. I am an extremely slow reader, and my attention can't be focussed for a reasonable length of time. I am sorry but I decided to abstain from voting, as there is no way I can chew my way through all the entries before the polls close. Putting up the poll so early is like starting the soccer match before I even put on my running shoes and said my prayers and touched the ground and circumflexed, and warmed up and ran out to the field only to be hit by empty beer bottles lobbed in my direction by irate spectators.
The only person I know of who read through all the entries is John27, and possibly Baden, but the latter I am not sure of. So basically it's conceivable that the only fair judge is John27. Fair in the sense he knows all entries; he has listened to all sides, so to speak. His opinion is also individual, so in the sense that a subjective opinion is by definition unfair, not by intention, but by taste, is also a factor.
I also noticed that pieces that got a mention got put on top of the list. People start at the top and proceed reading down the list. By the time they get to the fifth entry, they get bored. The bottom half never gets read by most.
The more mentions an entry got, the more it spent on the top of the list. The entries were given an initial sequence of posting. So the entries at the bottom had no chance to be read, and by the time they were read and given a comment, by the diligent and conscientious John27, there were tons of other entries with lots of discussing posts, so the single- or two- comment pieces have no chance of being read. The problems in these last two paragraphs would not have been remedied by a longer wait for poll opening, but it's worth a mention to think how to improve that.
Good point. So, our off-track conversation in the Ballad of Marco raised its profile :worry:
Quoting god must be atheist
I was glad that he and a few others made initial quick comments.
Then returned to further discuss :sparkle:
So, all writers at least have a response.
Quoting god must be atheist
Well, given that I sometimes read a book back-to-front, I decided to dip in anywhere...
However, I agree, the attention does go naturally to those with more responses.
Who is saying what, why and how...
A special thread just for them:
'The Writers: Review, Reflection, Revenge!'
:grin:
:100: True. IMO, not only should the poll be opened for only three days at the end (e.g. Jan 5-7), the stories should be posted in lists of five (e.g. 15 stories, 3 threads, titled "Short Story Competition 2A" ... "Short Story Competition 2B" ... Short Story Competition 2C"). Both are too late for the current competition I suppose – just my two pennies. (@Baden)
Anyway, I feel compelled to read all of the entries (even though I haven't read any yet, unlike last time when I read all twelve the first day) and will vote in the poll on the final day like I'd done before. I'll try to give encouraging, not critical, feedback by the poll deadline when a story moves me to it but I feel no obligation to do so in every instance. Besides, I can't improve on @Amity's thoughtful reviews.
I don't see why readers would read top to bottom on a list compiled in an irrelevant order (when entries were received). I read according to titles that take my fancy and the list constantly gets mixed according to whatever gets commented upon. But I'm not opposed to trying to counter this the next time round if it's perceived as a thing.
It would be nice if somebody compiled an ad hoc list of the stories in descending order of brevity so one can read whichever they have the time/are in the mood for as opposed to reading one too long for that particular sitting and end up reading less.
:scream:
I think I have 3/15 so far...
12 to go >:)
Darn you and your 6 years (or more) of TPF experience. Just you watch.
The game is in my hands.
(proceeds to miss a penalty kick.)
Well, I guess that means we'll just have to do it again. :wink:
Or do that. I knew that, yeah.
:up:
Is a temporary halt even a possibility @Baden - until mid-point ?
Quoting 180 Proof
Now, you're just making excuses :razz:
It's like an Amazon review. The comment reviews are what I look to as opposed to whether it got a 4.5 or whatever average score.
It'd be great if everyone did as Amity, right? I'll give it a go. I think the scoring system is making people hesitant to review anyone for fear they'll be impacting the vote, which is unfortunate because the reviews are far more helpful than the scoring and I see no reason why the reviews of others shouldn't be considered when voting. It might be we will more appreciate a story after hearing others' feedbacks.
I also think we've shown ourselves here to be encouraging and validating folks when it comes to reviewing others' creative works, so we don't need to worry about getting abused by other posters in the reviews.
For those concerned about our becoming too kind and supportive of one another, worry not, the regular threads remain available for bludgeoning each other.
Of course! There are all sorts of voting restrictions that can be imposed. We needn't recreate the wheel. We can just adopt these: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/11/04/texas-voting-law-justice-department-lawsuit/
Thanks for that.
I would love for people to engage more - all the better to see the story from a different perspective.
Eye-swivelling mind-benders :eyes: :nerd: :fire:
The law also creates potential criminal penalties for people who assist voters.
:rage:
I agree. @Amity has inspired me to follow in her example, not to keep my criticisms and thoughts for myself.
Yeah, baby. Don't be hiding your light under a bush-hat :up:
:sweat: Busted ...
How come you got so damned wise :wink:
You're right. It's all about keeping momentum and going wiv da flow :cool:
Can't get that urine fling outta my mind...
Absolutely. She's a sweetie. And I say that while I am happily married, because she's sweet in her capacity as a critic.
Oh, fuck off :naughty:
Quoting praxis
Who knows? My assumption was based on my own reading preferences of what order to read in. Some have the same, some have different. I could not make a reliable call on that.
In the first contest, I read according to titles that took my fancy, as Baden so daintily puts it. If you intend to read all of the stories it's simply much easier to go from top to bottom rather than having to fish for your fancy. Not that there's anything wrong with indulging one's fancy.
I would add that if you're going to vote, you need to read all of them. Seems obvious, but...
Of the two people who’ve voted so far, one of them doesn’t appear to have read them all, or it’s a sympathy vote.
Exactly.
Baden's OP now reads:
EDIT: *POLL IS READY: PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ ALL THE STORIES BEFORE VOTING. THANKS!*
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12143/holiday-short-story-competition-discussion-and-poll/p1
:up:
Missed this.
Inspired by 'Show Don't Tell', what about...
...
!! It's Short Story ShowTime !!
You, the rosy rotund Ringmaster, get to pin on ribbons, rosettes and hand out super shiny-bright trophies. Gold, Silver and Bronze medals !
Yay, cracked it.
No ?
No. OK. *shrugs*
Personally I like "competition" more than I like @Hanover. :smirk:
Agreed. Since I am a slow reader, I voluntarily forego my right to vote. I can't read them all... not due to the short time given, but because I can't focus. Would take me two months to read through all of them. Not anyone else's fault. I am aware of that too.
I wonder what you base this on. Any supporting ideas? How does a person appear to be who is unknown to you? And only one of the two persons appear to you, not both. The only people whose intention or motivation you can psyche out positively and for sure is your own self... Wittgenstein said that, not me.
Not to argue, or to dismiss, but I am absolutely curious how you have got to that conclusion, Praxis.
Maybe, ahem, in a quantitative assessment of the stories in Praxis' belief, it doesn't measure up to the other stories...
But stories are after all, like wine. You can be educated on its history and distinguished taste, but at the end of the day it only really matters if you like it or not.
I agree.
Quoting Amity
Unfortunately, not everyone has the time or inclination to read them all.
I think this REQUEST might result in a fewer votes.
Voting is fine, even if they simply choose to read a few or half plus the useful comments as a guide ?
In danger of getting too 'serious' for your so-called 'fun farce' of a poll ?
:up:
Everything has a purpose. Purpose is what defines us and binds us. If you want to know a person, and I mean capital K Know a person, you must fathom the depths of their soul until you discover their purpose. You could just ask them, of course, but they may not be honest... even with themselves.
The purpose of a pie is to be eaten.
So what is it about this Marco defamer, what's their purpose? Is it merely to defame? Is it some sort of twisted catharsis to eschew one's equanimity and publicly expel frustration and contempt? We cannot know for sure, though we can judge by what appears to us. Appearances can be deceiving, that's true, and what motivates us can be complex and confusing. Purpose reveals itself in action, and action is apparent.
The purpose of a fucking twat is to annoy.
The rules in the last contest included a stipulation that authors could not vote for their own story. I see now that the rules for this contest do not mention that request so it's entirely possible, and in compliance with the rules and polite requests, that the Marco author voted for their own story. If that's the case then this person could be motivated by sheer vanity, in addition to righteous indignation. Vanity has no purpose, no good purpose anyway.
The purpose of a God is to unite our purposes.
So how do we see eye-to-eye in all this. We pray to God. :pray:
The cool thing is that folks aren't rushing into voting and instead focusing on commenting, which is what I'd hoped.
Cheers, appreciate it, mate. :up:
They say that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. So you :gasp: or :halo: ?
Impressive display all around, as RogueAI says.
How better to spend it than come on here. After all, it is on my mind - how could it not be?
Re:
Quoting Baden
You hoped. Really ? You are in a position when you could have listened properly and acted.
You have now edited the OP to reflect an apparent change from 'fun farce' to a more serious request.
The poll could have been stopped or re-set to zero until most might have had the chance to read all.
The time-line suggested for that was roughly a week from the start.
There have only been 2 very early votes so far.
They can vote again for the same - or change their mind, having had more time to reflect.
I repeat:
Quoting Amity
I understand that you might be one of the authors ? ( probably wrong here too )
Either way, you are a mod who drew attention to one of the stories:
Quoting Baden
Interesting.
This particular story has been discussed. It's clever and can be seen from both extremes.
Outliers, if you like.
Potentially one perspective that of a powerful mod; the other from a hapless or annoying poster. Both a bit of a joke like the story ? :cool:
So, one of the early votes is for this story.
Possibly by someone with strong empathy for who he/she thinks the author is i.e. a victim ?
Or by the author himself - most unlikely if it is a powerful but sensitive mod with integrity. But likely from the most competitive...
Or by the annoying poster...
Or by a mod sympathiser.
Not a lot of people give a damn either way.
Not sure I do ( about who the voter is)...only to some extent...I enjoy and care for the writers.
I intend to finish my comments for each story because I started and it's only fair to see the job through.
Again, some couldn't give a shit. I waste both time and my breath.
*shrugs*
Just a few 3am thoughts - not always the brightest and best.
Take care.
I know you do. You set this up and have followed it through. We wouldn't be where we are without you.
Thanks for all that you and the team do :sparkle:
I had written:
Quoting Amity
Giving the impression that I was fine with the status quo.
I wasn't.
By agreeing with 'sooner...than later' I was thinking 'earlier' than the date @180 Proof suggested. Will stop now. Getting far too involved in this...and probably more wrong than I realise :sad:
For what it's worth, your comments on my story have already shown me things I didn't even notice about it. We writers really appreciate your comments.
Now that surprises me and want to know more.
Pity we can't get instant feedback on our feedback. But happy to wait...
I do appreciate reading any writers' responses, come the big reveal.
For what it's worth - it means a mega lot. Thank you very much :sparkle:
I certainly second that sentiment :smile:
Thanks. I've now enjoyed 15 very different stories; all so very well done by everyone :100:
Best wishes :sparkle:
It's interesting that the author's identity seems quite important when I'm reading the stories. I mean, I'm always wondering who it is. It's a different experience from reading an anthology of short stories by people you don't know or haven't heard of. And when I do know the author, that must colour the reading somehow.
Pretty sure I know yours and pretty sure you know mine. :sweat:
I think it's just the natural course of conducting an anonymous story contest amongst acquaintances that we naturally are trying to decipher who wrote what. But I don't feel like my assumptions have colored my readings too much. There were initially two stories I thought could be attributed to @Hanover before reading more comments. But I enjoyed both. I didn't feel like my skewed perception of which he was the author of impacted my enjoyment. If that makes sense.
Another thing I noticed is that my story was probably somewhat influenced by my knowledge of the intended audience. I don't think it would have turned out the same if I hadn't been writing for a small circle of friends and acquaintances. It was like I wanted to delight and entertain people I knew.
Welcome to the Creative Life. :razz:
Yes. I recognised the problem of discoloration when reading a story with a certain person in mind.
That happened when I immediately thought ''Aha ! I know you and what you are trying to do".
Most times, though, I didn't have a clue and I think that was better - even if I was distracted by trying to figure it out.
Even when reading non-TPF stories, I wonder about the author and their background.
It can detract or enhance the understanding.
For the last couple of stories, I made a deliberate effort to try and not guess.
Focus on the story. That wasn't difficult, given its complexity ( for me, anyway !)
However, my back-brain must still have been working on it.
The 'Aha!' moment struck.
It was perfectly obvious who wrote it.
I felt that I should edit some comments.
I didn't.
Interesting.
In my opinion "Marco" is the popular text, for three reasons:
1. it is terse. Not too much energy needed to stay with the story, either.
2. It is clear, logical, and has a cadence.
3. IT'S ABOUT US.
Literars have known for a long time that the most popular stories are likely to be the one that speaks to the audience; and what speaks more clearly and to its mind but a story about it.
I tried cross-referencing the short stories from the previous competition to maybe gain some sort of secret insight. Nothing so far :fear:
:lol:
The hunt is on, tally-ho !
Sometimes, similar themes are explored in a distinct style. Other times, not so much :wink:
Are you trying to get 15/15 ?
If you write a story and make us characters, you'll be entertaining and maybe get votes. I think the Marco story touches on that, but I also don't think it's as much a story as it is a gripe about Marco.
At the risk of giving this story even more prominence, the reasons why it appeals should have been kept to the relevant thread. The other stories are not getting the same exposure. This is unfair.
It was not 'winning' when Baden posted this. It had one vote.
Why did he draw attention to it ?
Because he knows who wrote it and doesn't want him to win ?
It might be 'popular' in the sense it is being discussed ad nauseam. Yes, by interested parties.
It might 'speak' to us - the TPF audience because it is about TPF, we can relate to it.
However, what does it say about 'us' if we choose a 'favourite' that is ABOUT US ?
The author clearly knows his target audience. How could he not ?
Clever it is...poking a bit of fun...and yeah, will ride high.
How could it not...
I missed this gem:
Quoting Hanover
So, again - with the hook - who is Marco and why the gripe ?
Are we never to hear the end of it :roll:
Ditto. I've just written about it.
But all of this is only a fun thing, remember :smirk:
I keep telling myself not to comment on the damned voting. Just stop it !
Quoting Baden
There are several stories I'd be happy to lose to, but "The Ballad of Marco" is just a joke entry so it would make a mockery of the whole thing if it won.
Do you really not know? He was (or may still be) a poster who would post literally hundreds of posts per week, get banned, and log in another name sometimes dozens of times per day. I banned him easily 50 or more times alone as did others, especially @Michael, who could be our author, but I could be wrong.
:rofl:
No. I truly don't.
Him or the author ? Both ?
So, given the rules have been broken and this M person is getting something out of it, what now ?
Me too. But that will never translate into action :razz:
But in the end, none of this controversy matters :cool:
I'm just looking forward to revealing myself and responding to people who commented on my story.
Yeah it's the "twat" that makes Michael the prime suspect.
So the joke is prolonged by voting for it I suppose.
Funny thought, Marco may have voted for it both times. :lol:
Shit, I didn't realize it was under the 500. I didn't count up the words in all the stories but I did exclude a couple of others that were obviously too short. My bad for letting it slip through. :grimace:
Pro tip: you don’t have to do it manually.
Ah. Alles ist klar.
The Brotherhood of Dummkopf Dunderheids :rofl:
Cheers to all :party:
Wait, they have machines that... D'oh! :groan:
Love it :grin:
I think I'll use my vote after all...
Following the footsteps of frolicking funfarce arsiness !
Yay :cheer:
You're right, and I agree. Except I won't vote, for fairness sake. Since I can't (not that I don't want to bother) read all the stories, I won't vote. I said that somewhere before. I don't think my vote will be wasted; others will be in a position to make a fairer judgment and hopefully they WILL vote.
How about I just tell you which story to vote for? :razz:
:rofl:
Well, tell me, please. I don't promise I'll vote for it, but I am curious which one you want to promote. I promise that maybe I'll read it, but again, unless I read all stores, I won't vote.
I suspect you've already voted.
I so expected that. For the record, no I have not voted.
You are very astute and keen observer, Jamalrob. I said that first as a point of my stance. The second two times I said that because you egged me on.
Believe what you want. I can't force you or influence you in any way what you believe.
I'm telepathically telling you which story is mine right now. Hopefully the brain waves can catch the Heaviside layer and make it from America to Hungary. :chin:
Nice try. I am in not Hungary right now. I am sure an atheist is getting up in the morning (it's around five a.m.) with an advanced TP sense, and says loudly to his wife in bed. "What???"
:rofl: Whoops! Recalculating...recalculating...stand by...
The condescension burns like acid. :groan:
You should use that as the prompt for your next story.
I don't get it. Why should I use it for my next story?
I dunno, it has a poetic ring to it?
Well, definitely was trying to, although now I'm not so sure...Right now I'm going for 6/15.
:ok:
Casper your way, beaten borg, mellow grey the while.
Looking forward. Hoping @Amity will return to chat more with us authors once all is revealed. :worry: :pray:
Me too. The amount of effort she put in has been phenomenal.
Agreed as well.
I had thought to take a break from TPF before the competition. For various reasons.
The discussion of the 2 controversial stories/jokes simply added fuel to the fire.
But still, even with all its goading, it was thought-provoking...some pertinent points made.
Overall, the competition has been an incredible experience; testing every sense.
Before this, I hadn't fully appreciated the value of the short story. Now I do.
Thanks to all who made this realisation possible.
Like many, I look forward to reading any authors' feedback as much as their stories.
What did we get right/wrong ?
Their reactions and responses - how can anyone not want to be a part of that ?
:cool: :up:
:yikes:
Stories have a life of their own and are not slaves to those that created them. This liminal time where creator and created are kept separate has proven this independent life. Let us look not to the author for authority but to our own beating hearts and thinking minds.
:up:
But it’s still going to be fun to see what the authors say.
Well, as a scribbler and not just a consumer of others' scribbings, I think 'comprehension' of a narrative requires both divining the authorial purpose and charitably critical (and/or creative) misreadings by each reader.
No work exists in a vacuum, though. The audience's experience of the work is something like 50% of the work itself. A five course meal is nothing if it sits on the table and isn't consumed.
By this comment do you interpret my last post suggests otherwise?
Your use of "misreadings" provoked the thought.
Not a big Bloom fan, but I'll check it out. Are you saying you're using his sense of "misreading", or do you have your own sense of it?
Well, my simple question suddenly became more complex.
Once stories are out there they are open to all kinds of interpretation; how readers relate.
Most are curious to see if they understood what the author was trying to say and why.
Not in an absolute sense of right or wrong.
Some just take the story as it is...no chewing required; the simpler the better.
Any author's authority comes from the fact that they are the creator.
The author need not always get things 'right' in an exploration.
Words have the power to influence others, including themselves.
An author might have special insight or knowledge about something.
They need to share the experience. How real is it ?
What or who might influence or control the author as they write?
In fiction, I've heard that characters can run the show...
Stories have a life. Yes.
And this article explores how stories are life, life is stories:
Quoting The Atlantic - Story of my Life: How Narrative Creates Personality
I thought this interesting. The implications of how we see ourselves as the main character:
Quoting The Atlantic
Empathy.
Isn't that what we tap into when we read ?
When we try to understand the thoughts/ideas/feelings the author is sharing ?
And that is why I really, really want to know what, if anything, we got right, right ?
Indeed, dear scribbler. I look forward to the Big Reveal :smile:
You make some good and interesting points, but I'm not sure about this bit. As one of the scribblers, I think I can say with confidence that I wasn't trying to say anything in particular. I was just trying to make something cool out of words.
Of course, themes and meanings can be found in stories, but I suspect that for most writers, most of the time, there is no conscious message or meaning that they're trying to impart.
The themes and meanings in my own story are ones I've found only when reading it later.
Quoting jamalrob
That's been my experience too. I may have had some vague ideas when writing, but mostly I create the beginnings of a string, a sentence or phrase, and tug on it and if I'm lucky there's more and more and it goes somewhere. In my very early writings (and the story I submitted was one of those), the string rarely went far before coming to an abrupt end, and that was satisfying enough for me at the time. Later, I realized how undeveloped my writing was and stuck with the string longer until, if I hadn't tied myself in knots, I got to weave a deeper tapestry. Very often reading these stories was a process of discovery; like, "oh, I did this", and "that could mean this" and "I wonder if I got that from here?" etc. And I think it should work that way because stories ought to be discovered as much as created.
Quoting jamalrob
It stifles the adventure, doesn't it?
Quoting Amity
I agree it's empathy we tap into, but we're understanding thoughts/ideas/feelings that are not the property of the author but that the author had access to in the moment of writing. And I think that distinction is important to make because it pertains to the nature of ownership re art. You might say that the closer a piece of work is to being art. the less it is or should be owned by anyone, including the author. It's more a kind of being that has manifested for us and the author has been privileged enough to have been its portal.
Playing with words - where you don't need or feel pressured to say anything in particular :cool:
It never fails to amaze me what I find when I type in words like:
'Writers just wanna have fun !'
Literary therapy for the Forgotten Australians.
Quoting Innovative Resources
Fun with a purpose. No pressure. The feelings spill freely...
Quoting jamalrob
Drunk while writing ? :party:
One good reason, I suppose, to simply to read a story as is; without knowledge of author's intent ?
Depends. With the leghorn piece, had we had read it with the original intent in mind, it would've certainly warped our first impressions. In that case I don't think it would have been helpful. However, for maybe another story where the reader and the author are more or less on the same page, it can help to have some clarification at times.
Drunk, no, but inspiration struck a couple of times when I'd had two or three glasses of wine.
Self discovery by writing/reading stories ?
Sounds good to me.
Wondering where 'that' came from...inspiration...
Quoting Baden
Access to something other than the author's thoughts ? What or who could that possibly be ?
A different level of consciousness. Now we're going deep...
Interesting to consider.
The stated intentions of an author might be open to question.
The story might have come from a different place...unknown...
We speak loosely of our thoughts. But what else are we? I'm not trying to be all mystical here or anything. Just that the way we talk about subjects including ourselves is more for convenience. So, if we as subjects are more or less coherent amalgamations of thoughts and stories are, similarly, more or less coherent amalgamations of thoughts then it seems fair to ponder on what distinctions there are between the proximate creators of art and the art itself.
This definitely fits with my way of thinking about it, and with my experience, although my only experience of writing fiction is the story I wrote for this competition, unless you count something I wrote for English class at the age of 15.
I wonder though about interpretations of plot. If readers disagree or are confused about what actually happened in the story, does the author's intention have any more weight? I guess the answer is that the author didn't write it well, or else they wanted to leave it open to interpretation, or they wanted to make a puzzle out of it. And if the latter (maybe Nabokov is an example), then doesn't the author have the final answer?
Hm, I see what you mean. In that event though, I still think we can relate/work with the author in a sense where it's like a cooperative effort, to find out what's behind it all.
Same here. :100: :up:
Quoting Amity
I wonder if you've already sussed-out which story is mine.
I like to think I have but I got it so very wrong last time :yikes:
I wonder if my comments are anywhere near the mark ?
Time will tell...
Yes, that is a possibility.
'What's behind it all' could be worms best left alone in an unopened can. For all concerned.
Otherwise, if there are philosophical issues...a clear, objective look...with heat removed...hmm...
To the philosophy of X,Y, Z or General forum.
What is the problem ?
Overthinking this here, much ? :chin:
Ah, maybe so.
Quoting Amity
What do you mean by heat removed?
Heat as in emotional heat.
Sometimes it can take over and dull the thinking process.
More heat than light...
Oh, smart.
We have an extraordinary capacity for empathy though, which can even extend to inanimate objects, like a plump pie, for instance. We can imagine a highly rational pie that philosophizes that everything is as it should be and wildly divergent perspectives are all right, right?
For sure, you can lurv an American pie :heart:
but will it love you back... :broken:
The story in American Pie is widely regarded as a cautionary tale whose moral is that it's okay to love American pie but it's not okay to love American pie.
For those unfamiliar with the film... [hide]
Another story to inpiethize with...
Luther Ingram - If lovin you is wrong i don't wanna be right
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWAUCVbnDUg
That's just wrong. :lol:
Not to your taste ? :razz:
The telling of the creative process is fun to hear... a bit mysterious...perhaps we shouldn't poke...?
Talking about that... and pies...
Come on all ye writers - pull the plum out o' yer...
The story behind the story.
Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner,
Eating a Christmas pie;
He put in his thumb,
And pulled out a plum,
And said, ‘What a good boy am I!’
https://interestingliterature.com/2018/10/a-short-analysis-of-the-little-jack-horner-nursery-rhyme-origins-history/
:clap: Most people who write for the first time tend to write in quite a clichéd way where the influences are obvious. I didn't sense that at all from your story. My story was a year or two into my writing and it's kind of a mixed bag on that score. It'd be interesting to know who else in the competition is new to writing.
Quoting jamalrob
Good question and quite a bit to disentangle, but I'll give it a go. Firstly, I suppose it depends to an extent on why readers disagree about a plot and in what way the author's intention has weight. If there are issues of logic of content or progression, for example, author intention seems crucial. Stories can simply contain mistakes that can cause confusion (>>the author didn't write well). But logical inconsistencies can also be intentional (as with an unreliable narrator or maybe as part of a magic realism style) in which case it comes down to a judgement of whether their presence "works". If the issue is that the plot is convoluted or obscure then it could be that >>the author wanted to leave it open to interpretation or >> wanted to make a puzzle out of it as you mentioned, but there could also be a misalignment of intended audience. There's not much excuse for making a kid's book with a confusing plot and much more in doing the unorthodox with this dimension in a work of literature. If there's a puzzle there, there are also nuances. It could be a mystery novel where "whodunnit" is not explicitly stated but towards whom the evidence or clues provided by the author invariably point. In that case, the author pretty much has the final say. But the puzzle doesn't have to be so clearcut; it might be an emotional or psychological puzzle that defines what should have happened e.g., did character A really love character B, in which case surely he went to see her at such and such a moment? The author's answer may be "yes", but there's no obvious reason why a reader's might not be "no". Of course, we're in danger now of conflating plot with character, but in some respects there's no absolute dividing line there.
Now that you've mentioned Nabokov, it brings to mind something he said about Finnegan's wake, which is an extreme example of a story over which plot elements are much disputed and essentially opaque to anyone but experts. Nabby wasn't impressed and nicknamed it "Punnigan's wake", dubbing it a "stale porridge" or a book :fire: . Not sure myself whether Joyce was creating a puzzle or taking the fucking piss. And even less sure if it matters, 'cos I hardly understand a word of it anyway. :monkey:
You’re making a lot of sense here. I consider my question satisfactorily answered.
Quoting Baden
I often agree with Nabokov and I’m happy he’s allowed me to avoid the Wake without anxiety. I’m intending to read Ulysses soon for the first time, though.
:smirk:
He did give Ulysses the thumbs up. Ashamed to say I didn't make it all the way through (yet) but it's a much easier read in that I could actually read it. :smile:
:fire:
Beckett's plays are unrivalled but haven't got into the books yet apart from a few dabblings. I find his style much more alive in the former format but maybe I'm missing out. :chin:
The trilogy of Molloy, Malone Dies, and The Unnamable is, without a doubt IMO, Beckett's masterpiece. :up:
I have everything he wrote, including those. :smile: Should dive in I guess.
That's what I argued for, but now I can see why some people want something else. My favourite alternative is 180's:
Quoting 180 Proof
On the other hand, others have made the point that leaving feedback comments should be the focus, rather than voting.
I see. That's a good voting method. Or a "like" button -- active only for each submission.
Quoting jamalrob
I'm fine with this. But you do want someone winning, no?
Me, I'm fine with the competitive element. I found it motivating. Others might not care so much about that side of it.
Ditto. I enjoy reading the commentaries.
:lol:
Quoting 180 Proof
Baden/Mod tallies each submission's scores and the submission/s with highest total score "wins". Then, each entrant reveals which story s/he wrote in its comments section (and maybe acknowledges which other one is his / her "favorite" in its comments section). Let's trust each other not to vote for his / her own story. :halo:
The only person I don't trust not to vote for him or herself is me, but I managed to resist the evil temptation.
Ditto! :monkey:
Sure, we can do it that way the next time. I'd also like someone else to vet the stories and I'll just concentrate on the mechanical stuff that only mods/admins can do anyway. Better for transparency and all that jazz.
The poll closes at 12AM UTC tonight. That's during the day/evening, American time. As of this post, in 7 and a half hours.
Extension please.
Honestly, the way things are set up, it really is difficult to figure out what to vote for and I'm not sure an extension will help much. Added to that, many voters might be keen to get on to the author question and answer sessions asap. However, if it looks like there's a consensus in favour of an extension before the deadline, I'll grant one.
See>> @180 Proof Fail again, fail better! :party:
The only people who might need an extension are those who have still to read all short stories; and want to participate in the poll.
If you don't hear from such readers, then what's the point of an extension ?
How many are out there ? Hands up !
I'd like an extension as well actually. Take some time to really soak in the stories.
Does that mean you haven't already voted ?
I have voted, just still wanna figure out the writers. 7. 7 and I'm happy.
Put the questions re extension in the Shoutbox ?
You can still do that without an extension to voting time !
Noo! He's gonna reveal the writers when the voting stops I think.
Oh. Oh...
Well then, an extension is necessary. :up:
I think a clear post of the poll closing deadline (Baden :eyes:) in advance would've been helpful but maybe I'm too daft to find it.
Looks like more time is needed to fulfil voting requirements :up:
For at least 2 readers so far...
It's on the first page of the thread, where you vote and stuff.
Isn't that the entry deadline, 23rd of December. Sorry, I meant poll closing deadline.
Another brilliant triumph of organization. I mentioned it a few times in the thread but should have put it in there. I'll wait until I know what we're doing about the extension. I think a week might be too long but if posters want a few days, shout now.
No, y'all are going to guess and they'll reveal themselves. :nerd:
...
Ok, close enough. I was close.
Here's ok, we're pinned anyhow.
Oh right, I forgot about that.
If someone (or more than one) volunteer, who's not a mod, can vet the stories next time *hint, hint* and we change the poll system, we should be able to avoid controversy next time round.
Well I say controversy, but in my opinion it wasn't that bad. Thanks for setting this up, once again.
:cool: :up:
Following a discussion in the Shoutbox re Short Story Competition and apparent lack of interest:
:up: Wonder what the story writers think ? As well as the competition - an opportunity all year round ?
I would like to see a distinct Short Story section. To include threads or discussions of stories by TPF writers and the more well-known and published. Recommendations as in 'Currently Reading' with short comments or analyses as in the competition.
The 'Get Creative' thread caters for all kinds of creativity. It's good but not enough.
See earlier post:
[b]Philosophy of Literature...of Fiction...Philosophy of Art? Books and Papers? Aesthetics?
Where can TPF creative authors and other recommendations find a permanent home ?[/b]
Somewhere other than a one-off competition relegated to The Lounge.
The Lounge where discussions deemed unworthy are binned.
I know there is a Creativity thread out there somewhere but stuff gets lost.
— Amity
My first instinct: it wouldn't have the energy, focus, and fun of these competitions and would only detract from what we have here now.
I agree there wouldn't be the same narrow time frame; the frenetic rush to read, comment and vote. Some would welcome that. I know I would.
I doubt I will participate as fully next time, if at all.
How would it detract ? You've seen the value and the revelations while reading.
A Short Story isn't just for Christmas :sparkle:
And the section would contain more than what we have here now...
I've said similar before and this will be the last time.
Thanks for listening...again.
I think we could do something along those lines. Just need to drum up a bit more community support for it.
I think it could be super interesting, just depends if people are willing to make it work or not. I'd like it though.
Personally, I like the bi-annual contest better. Just the fact that it’s an “event” makes it feel special and different. And my concern is that if it was its own section that could be posted in year round, it would become overwhelming; much like the music thread is now. Lots of people post lots of music, but there’s almost no interaction. It’s just too much to keep up with. Plus, suppose there’s a member here that writes a lot of short stories compared to others. Then the thread turns into “Member X’s short story thread.” I’d at least like to see how the next summer solstice competition goes before scrapping the idea. Maybe it being the holidays and there being double the number of submissions has an effect on voter participation this time.
@Amity @jamalrob @Baden re: 4 contests / year?
i. spring equinox (march),
ii. summer solstice (june),
iii. fall equinox (september)
iv. winter solstice (december)
1. January 5, my birthday.
2. November 7, the anniversary of the great Russian Bolshevik October Proletarian Glorious Socialist Revolution.
3. Armistice day, Viet Nam war
4. Friday, when Robinson Crusoe acquired his slave servant.
I think that it could be worth a shot. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I was encouraged by your discussion with @Tobias starting here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/640878
You and @Baden will know best where and how this could be done, if at all.
''If you build it, they will come''.
Perhaps.
I see it as a way to encourage/build interest not only in the Short Story Competition but also another way of doing philosophy. Practising skills required.
Not gonna push it any more. It's in the hands of the gods...
Yes. A forum or sub-forum is only as good as the time, effort and energy of people allow.
Motivation can be low until someone inspirational comes along.
We have more than our fair share here.
I want to take the short story out of the lounge. Under or in what sub-forum, I don't know.
What exactly are you signing approval :up: for ?
Quoting Amity
Thanks for your thoughts.
I should have taken time to clarify my original post.
It's not proposing an either/or but both.
A separate area shouldn't become overwhelming; it's not a single thread to be added on to.
There would be interaction if posters interact as in the competition comments.
Interesting recommendations or resources would be kept together.
You wouldn't need to 'keep up with' anything.
Again, it wouldn't be a single thread. It would contain several covering whatever is relevant to the short story genre and philosophy. If a member has his own thread within this, I don't see a problem ?
'there being double the number of submissions' - yes, should there be a limited number - if not, then more time required to read ?
The competition isn't to be scrapped. However, as it stands, there seems little interest.
How do you persuade others of the value ?
Thanks. How do you suggest that is accomplished ?
:up:
Quoting Amity
I'll ruminate.
Stories would be sent to one of the two or three Short Story admins and then published in Short Stories. Otherwise new discussions would be closed to members. There could be a discussion thread too. Basically it would be like the competitions but without deadlines and polls (it wouldn't be pinned at the top either).
Is that about right?
Just about and a bit more :wink:
Quoting jamalrob
The competition is stickied in the Symposium category but doesn't it get stuck back in the Lounge when it's over ? So, in essence hidden away, unlike the Shoutbox.
Quoting jamalrob
That might be a way. I had been thinking of it being a more free-flowing, inclusive and inviting space.
Sending stories to admin or mods would, I think, be off-putting plus more work for the mods?
Also, I thought any section re short stories would include more than that. See previous.
Quoting jamalrob
The Symposium: its description includes 'music, dancing, recitals or conversation'.
So, the possibilities are there, for sure. However, each thread within is 'stickied'.
I'm not sure what that's all about, Alfie ?
Perhaps, all it needs is a re-naming and description of a relevant sub-forum ?
Philosophy of Art and Creativity ?
Just more thoughts...
No, the threads in the Symposium are not automatically stickied. We did that manually to the existing threads in the Symposium. I don't think we'd do it for this new section.
Quoting Amity
Quoting Amity
A new category open to all might work too. No need to send stories to a mod or category admin, so less work. Yeah we could try it I guess.
Quoting jamalrob
The best of both worlds. I like it :up:
I'll just have to add an intro thread and a discussion thread, both pinned within the category only.
Damn, did I just get roped into running this thing? :confused:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/40/short-stories
No. We're all hanging fire until the voting is done and dusted.
BTW, the link isn't working for me...still a work in progress ?
Quoting jamalrob
Thanks for all your work :100:
How about now?
:up: :cool:
That's in the Symposium.
So, I guess a broader discussion re short stories by other authors etc. could take place, where ?
Under Phil of Art ?
Anyway, up and off now. The sun doth shine :grin:
Quoting jamalrob
Quoting Amity
You mean authors aside from the members of TPF, like Chekhov and Borges etc? Maybe I can add another category. Or maybe someone can add a thread to an existing category.
EDIT: for the latter, the existing reading groups section looks all right.
Sucker. :lol:
I wouldn't worry too much; hardly anyone will notice it is there.
'Short Stories' doesn't show under 'The Symposium' unless you are logged in.
I don't always log in and wondered if it had disappeared.
Never mind...
It should show up now even if you're not logged in. I assumed everyone was always logged in like me.
Oh, that's good to know !
:up:
Someone (you?) could make a list of 5 or 10 short stories and make a poll to decide which one the community is going to read, then make a reading group thread for the reading discussion.
Who me ? Nah, not yet. I don't know enough.
That poll thing sounds like a bit of a palaver...
You go first !
But the short stories, for me, will need to be easily accessible and preferably free !
Yes, for sure.
OK. Show us your famous fiction picks :wink:
Though I guess he's burnt out after the stress of this competition.
He made my ears bleed. Got no sympathy :razz:
Have to admit I've always gone for novels until recently, so I don't know very many short stories.
Some I've enjoyed:
Gogol, "Diary of a Madman", "The Overcoat", "Nevsky Prospekt"
Barthelme, "The Balloon"
Carver, "Cathedral"
Kafka, "In the Penal Colony", "Investigations of a Dog"
That's all I can think of right now. Pathetic.
https://www.shortstoryguide.com/philosophical-short-stories/
https://marktomforde.com/academic/miscellaneous/stories/ursula-k-le-guin-the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas.pdf
Haven't read it but I like Ursula Le Guin a lot.
And it's only 4 pages :smile:
I'll pass that baton onto @180 Proof. I have at times written quite a bit though.
Quoting jamalrob
Not at all.
Quoting Amity
I just read it. Wow, quite a story. A familiar ethical thought experiment but beautifully presented.
I haven't read it yet.
I reckon an enthusiastic someone (like you ?) should just go ahead and start a discussion. End of.
Forget all the poll-ish palaver. Just bloody well do it !
I looked at the Discussion Proposals you mentioned. Seemed to be a lot of talk going nowhere fast.
Then again...
Hey, I'm only submitting to your demands!
Quoting Amity
Some of the reading groups have been successful, many haven't. It's an expected success rate.
Hah. You were gonna do it anyway ! Yes, you were :razz:
JAMALROB’S NOTE: continue the chat and guess the authors in the old thread: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11340/short-story-competition-discussion