Buddhism and Communism
There seems to be enough members here who have a strong interest in one or the other, so I thought I'd post this topic that combined the two. What do you think of the author's main thesis?
https://aeon.co/essays/how-marxism-and-buddhism-complement-each-other
https://aeon.co/essays/how-marxism-and-buddhism-complement-each-other
Comments (107)
It's about social identity, as the article says. Few can be hermits
Well they say self and God are illusions so ye
As the article says, Buddhism doesn't say the experience of self is bad or unreal. It says it is an illusion that causes suffering if not handled well. I live in California, USA. Third world countries are jealous of us but I don't think most Californians are happy from what I can see
Every thing is illusionary is most ways according to the Buddhist. Reduction in suffering is their goal
1) individualistic capitalism vs governmental control
2) cultural elitism vs cultural relativism
In America the Republicans believe that white Western culture is better than other cultures and that individualism is about human rights given by their white God. I don't call myself a Democrat because I see the Planned Parenthood movement as capitalist abortion, just a free market for people to make bad choices. I'm learning lately about "actual idealism", which was born from a paper by Giovanni Gentile in 1912. He intended to continue the "reform of the Hegelian dialectic" that had been started by Bertrando Spaventa, a Hegelian from Naples, by a "method of immanence" that was largely founded on Hegel's ideas but to a lesser extent, maybe, Fitche. (Gentile's ideas were latter put into Christian garb by Armando Carlini, who's initiatives lead to the movement called Christian Spiritualism.) Like Hegel's philosophy, it is a community oriented philosophy which supports a strong government, although I do not support any monarchical tendencies in any of these thinkers. See The Social Philosophy of Giovanni Gentile by H. S. Harris (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1960) if you want to learn more
Agreed. As far as I am concerned, they are all misplaced opinions about how other individuals should live their lives.
Quoting Gregory
I do not support control of a single person by a country.
You seem like a sensible person, but you apply your ideas selectively.
Do you base your individualism on religion, philosophy, or practical concerns?
This statement is in strong contradiction to the fact that schools of Buddhism exist. Buddhism DOES want to tell to others (at least to those who ask for it) how to live. Very, very much so.
Granted, Buddhists don't tell people who are not interested in Buddhism how to live the Buddhist way, while communist agit-prop (agitational propaganda) does.
That is a rather key distinction for me.
Can you explain?? Sounds like an old man drunk on his recliner.
But yeah, I think Marxist-Communism is much more invested in technology as a solution which I think Buddhism has nothing much to say about. The conditions of life seem to be more concerned with the ideas of economics and Marx.. We have to work-to-survive. What does this mean? Of course, I think we shouldn't put people into this situation in the first place (pace antinatalism). Others think it is okay to throw another worker in the world whose needs uses others for labor and vice versa. It is an intractable situation.
I wonder though if people had a more self-awareness in just how it is that work itself and relations related to work is harmful and can be reduced. I think people think that as long as they are not being "man's wolf to man" on a macro level, they get a pass on a micro level, and working social relations are certainly a place where at a micro level, man enacts its "wolf" to man. Homo homini lupus. Because, if we don't all work to keep ourselves alive, then society breaks down, and others can't survive.. So get to fuckn' work! Stuff like that.. Man's wolf to man. Intractable though.. the problem is these habits are seen as necessary.. Yet if it is, we don't stop to pause and think if this situation is good for others to into in the first place.
Communism is authoritarian. To an extent so is Christianity. The new testament says to obey the powers that have the authority, although Jesus himself refused to take sides between the Jews and the Romans
Having been a serious Zen student for over thirty years and having studied classical and radical economics (at some depth) over the past 40 years, perhaps my perspective might help.
I would agree with the first part of your statement that Marxists and Buddhists would find little in common. Now this is assuming that these are folks that actually understand Marxism (few) and Buddhism (extremely few).
Where it gets interesting is whether we are considering Marx's critique of capitalism (which is solid) or the interpolation of his findings into the complete disaster that Communism became, and on the other side, whether we are talking about the religion of Buddhism, or the essence of Buddhism (the historical Buddha came up with the religion because he knew that all but the very, very few would "understand" the essence).
Your every day run of the mill religious Buddhist is generally a very nice person who tries to help others where they can. Marxists are miserable people who only see the contradictions in life (and there are plenty to be had). I've known a lot of both and it would be difficult to see much similarity between the two groups (and none between hard core Marxists and those who "get" Buddhism).
Can a Buddhist not be an activist?
If Tenzin Gyatso, Fourteenth Dalai Lama of Tibet can claim to be a Marxist then yes.
Why would you believe that a Buddhist would have to be an activist?
Because praying in your cave eventually becomes meaningless. Eventually you will want to put your ideals to practice
99.9% of all the intellectual stuff that goes on in Buddhism (and particularly, Zen) has but one message...meditate, because this is where all realization takes place.
We have a duty to help others
We find our own self realization in society. That's pretty obvious
I don't believe in any spiritual benefits someone can find apart from society
I wasn't saying everyone should own the same things. Capitalism causes a lot of misery and I see that everyday
That aside, the key to understanding anything is being able to see is clearly. And the key to seeing things with clarity is understanding yourself.
I understand my place perfectly and how to minimize the bad stuff is not another story. Buddhism and Marxism point out how bad materialism becomes and finding something to help the situation is what this thread is about
The way is not "in". That's a place for vacation, not a destination
Are you not forgetting the first noble truth of the Buddha (or any religion that pays any attention to anything and wants to gain members aka "exists"): Existence is suffering. The cause of suffering is desire.
Materialism creates desire. Channel your efforts into the right social endeavours and you can make a change
All kinds of things create desire. The material aspects are perhaps the smallest part.
This thread is about how Buddhism relates to political social theory
It was hard to decide which power had the authority: Judea, or Roma. If Jesus had a clear knowledge which, he would have sided to obey that one. But he had no way of relying on the old adage that we use these days in times of facing hard decisions. He could not ask, "Now, what would Jesus do?"
There, did I fix that for you right?
My understanding of Buddhism is completely different. It prescribes a certain ideolgy, that must be the shaper of the conduct of a Buddhist's life. The ideology is clear, well defined, and restrictive.
I don't know this part, but my impression is that the ensuing behaviour based on the Buddhist ideology is not as restrictive as the ideology itself.
Quoting synthesis
This statement describes the teachings of all religions and ideologies, from their own perspective. No ideology or religion teaches "this is the set of our rules and this is what you must believe, but actually the one and only true religion is the one you only hear about and which is totally different from ours."
Buddhism is difficult to talk about for many different reasons. If you had room full of Buddhists, you might never hear a conversation where they agree on much. It's like everything intellectual, everybody has their own reality.
I am speaking to the essence of Buddhism (the non-intellectual).
Quoting god must be atheist
Yes and no. The main difference is that the practice of meditation is the method taught to achieve clarity. Other religions (including the intellectual aspects of Buddhism) are creating an intellectual narrative. In Buddhism, the main purpose for this is to reveal to the follower that meditation is the path.
Other religions seem to concentrate much more on the narrative (although Christian mystics make for some of the most serious Zen students).
Interesting theory but nothing could be further from the truth.
Everybody is on their own path.
Buddhists posit "interdependence" in order to separate from the world when it should be the opposite. A natural ally for Buddhism is Marxism, in a relationship within together they can learn from each other. On their own they are trouble
I think meditation IS the path, you are absolutely right about that. But what every Buddhist believes (if they actually follow The Buddha) is that human needs are the path to suffering. To eliminate suffering therefore you must eliminate the feeling of the needs --
Am I right in this assessment of Buddhist ideology at its most basic?
If yes, then you reveal that meditation is a path, a service route to eliminate the feeling of needs. Meditation reveals to you the clarity of how to achieve a life without needs.
If no, you don't agree that the most basic tenet of Buddhism is that needs create suffering, then I'm really interested in what you think Buddhist ideology is at its most basic.
Remember, meditation is not an ideology, it's a path. A method. A tool. It is not what meditation does that I wish you can tell me. I wish you could tell me what you believe the basic ideology of Buddha's beliefs is, if different form "needs create suffering, and you must eliminate needs."
I think you are comparing apples to oranges with this stance. Buddhism is not a religion. It invokes no deity, it uses no supernatural elements to guide one's life, it uses no supernatural elements (i.e. gods) to whom you can appeal to, or bribe with sacrifices, to help you achieve this or that of your earthly ambitions.
Buddhism is not a religion. Please don't compare it to religions. I mean, you can, but I, for one, resent it if you do.
Its comparison to Marxist-Leninist Bolshevik communism is more apt, inasmuch as both are theories. One is about social movement as reflected by economical arrangements, the other is about individual human psychology. There is an overlap between the two. The two are comparable, or at least mutually non-exclusive by way of being mere theories, while communism is mutually exclusive, therefore incomparable, with religions.
Capitalism is despicable. A large-scale robbery. The rich are getting richer and are doing their best to steal more from the poor. A country in which the salary of a waiter depends on tips is a despicable country.
Absolutely right. So... how does the meditation connect to the need stuff then? Any connection? I mean, if it is not connected to needs, then why meditate? Clarity? Clarity is something that is realized. What do you aim to realize with meditation? If it is not connected to Buddhism, then meditation is a practice that benefits anyone, Buddhist or otherwise... why does Buddhism then own meditation?
I am now really confused. Is mediation a Buddhist practice, or a practice that Buddhists do, but it's not exclusive to Buddhism? In that case, it is a path that anyone can take, in any situation.
We talk about Buddhism, though. If meditation is inclusive of other walks of life, then why insist that clarity via meditation is Buddhist? And if if it is not a Buddhist thing exclusively, then what IS the essence of Buddhism?
As far as I know, the Buddha taught that needs are the source of suffering. Meditation does not alleviate it, you say. So what is it, that a Buddhist is to do? The thing that makes him into a Buddhist. What area of life has what belief or what behaviour pattern is exclusive to Buddhism?
I am asking because I don't know. It's an honest question. If meditation is a tool that potentially anyone and everyone could use, what is a behaviour that is strictly Buddhist?
I agree with you. But the poor are not getting poorer. On the long run anyhow. People in highly capitalist countries enjoy a better lifestyle than in non-capitalist countries. So while the distribution of wealth is highly uneven, it is still more equitable and fair than in any country in the world, except another capitalist country.
Sorry for the delay in response. I was told that meditation is like exercise. It about gaining control. Trying to find altered states through it might not be a good idea.
The article is written from a perspective favoring Tibetan Buddhism. This is a relatively small Buddhist school, but probably the most popular one in the West, due to the visibility of the Dalai Lama.
The Buddhist concepts spoken of in that article are specific to Tibetan Buddhism, or, at most, to Mahayana Buddhism at large. But this is not all that Buddhism is about, and it certainly isn't the Buddhism of the foundational Buddhist scriptures, the Pali Canon.
So it's hard to comment on the article in any detail without going into doctrinal differences between the various Buddhist schools (which is just too much for a forum thread like this).
Latter schools are defined by their ethos as rebellion against traditionalism Buddhism. This happens in all religions
I am certain no Buddhist scholar (as a matter of fact, being a Zen student, I have attempted to avoid the intellectualism as much as possible) but I believe what you are getting at is that the Buddha taught that desire is is the cause of suffering and the way to extinguish suffering is eliminate desire. There are mountains of books written about this with various subtle interpretations, but this is the basic idea.
Quoting god must be atheist
Basically, but there's a lot more to it. What you receive through meditation is the ability to realize (very different than intellectual understanding). It is the realization to leads to wisdom, that is, seeing things for what they truly are instead of what your thinking tells you is true.
Quoting god must be atheist
Needs can be very different than desires. For example, the great desire to transcend is the desire for life itself. It is only when you really accept (understand, or better, realize) death can you begin to live.
Quoting god must be atheist
One of the most important lessons that very few Buddhists (or Zen students) really learn (and I mean REALLY learn) is that all of the words are meaningless. It is only the practice of meditation that is important. The words are only meant to point the way to meditation.
I could give the best explanation the world has ever experienced and it would still be total non-sense. Having said that, let me say the following :) ....
Again, it is that desire (intellectualization) creates all suffering. All things come and go. When we attach to thought/feelings, the suffering ensues when the object of our desire no longer exists. It can be something good or bad, and produce all kinds of feelings (the most obvious and destructive being anger).
Cease the intellectualization and your attachments fall away (and with it goes your suffering). This is not to imply that you stop thinking because we obviously need to do this to live in the world. Uncluttered by all kinds of extraneous thoughts, the mind works MUCH better, seeing things much closer to the way they truly are. It's the real deal.
Sorry, but I cannot be responsible for your feelings.
I choose to think of religion as the intellectualization of spirituality, so Buddhism is certainly a religion. And it's actually a very nice religion, if you happen to be into that sort of thing. Very positive, upbeat, good people trying to do good things.
Actually (and although capitalism has its issues), it's an amazing productive system that creates the most opportunity for the most people. Plus, it's the only economic system there is. See if you can come up with a better one!
There will always be some capitalism, as there will always be struggle (suffering). That's the way it is. A "better option" is socialism where materialism slows down. People say socialism doesn't work very well but that's the whole point. Too much riches causes too many problems in another way
Plus, socialism comes with an incredible amount of baggage (massive corruption).
Like good ole Margaret Thatcher said, "Socialism works great until you run out of other people's money."
It's not "other peoples'" money. They live in society
There is corruption when there are too many rich people as well. Capitalists say their right to money is absolute, but what of hippies' "right" to use the drug of their choice. Nobody is an island and the wealth of each person is for them primarily and for others secondarily. The latter part is what I'm emphasizing
Buddhism is not about paradise. It is about understanding your true nature and where you stand in relation to The Universe. The idea is not to "eliminate suffering," it is to accept it as a normal part of life, as it is not what happens to us that is the problem, instead, it is the reaction to what happens.
Fully enlightened people have lived brutal lives with all kinds of suffering. They just don't see it that way. For them, it's just the way it is. Not good, not bad. Just is.
Maybe there should simply be laws for how right people should use their wealth for others. So cooperation. Sean Hannity said wealth causes more problems for the wealthy, so why not help everyone out with proper governmental programs.
I take my suffering as a way to grow into moments of happiness
There are no simple clean answers, but maybe that proper and how it should be
Believe in yourself 100%!
Although cliche, it's all about the journey.
No need to worry about how it should be. Spend all of your energy doing what you believe is right and your life will unfold nicely.
Thanks
Have a good one!
Either you're fully enlightened or this is one of those theoretical or faith things, which you seem to frequently pooh-pooh.
It doesn't matter what I am. Think about it this way...
If you have a body, most likely you are going to suffer...illness, accident, death (of yourself or a loved one/friend). Different people experience different degrees of suffering depending on a number of factors.
Again, to suffer is to be human, how you deal with the suffering is what we are chatting about. You can make an analogy with pain. As you are most likely aware, a great deal of pain is mental/psychological. Once you understand the nature of pain (the primary reason the historical Buddha chose sitting meditation as the preferred method, that is, pain is your best teacher), everything changes. And as I have said previously, once you understand one thing, you understand ever thing.
It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.
I think thinking about things and theorising can be thoughtful and thorough. Faith ain't noth'n to tilt your nose up at either. However, if we have an aversion to such things, for whatever odd reason, then what is left to have faith in but our own experiece.
For me to find states where thinking ceases is reaching those conditions without thought and therefore too quickly
Capitalism creates the greatest opportunity for the same group. While communism existed, the capitalists presumed to give up part of the surplus value in social rights, but the USSR went bankrupt. In my opinion, all the standard bearers of American capitalism who are patriots could demonstrate their patriotism by giving half of the wealth they have accumulated to the rest of their compatriots whom they have not stopped plundering. They would continue to live like gods and others would have coverage for pregnancy, illness and retirement. I am ashamed to see that a 90-year-old man has to continue working for the Amazon boss if he wants to live.
The poor are poor in any country in the world. Highly capitalist countries steal energy and mineral resources from other countries, increasing violence in them. In the country itself, the highly capitalist government prints more bills, increasing inflation and robbing everyone except the big capitalists, friends of the rulers, who keep their tax breaks. Have you heard of Marine General Smedley Butler?
A slave is a slave when he is not even able to imagine that another world is possible.
Printing money with no standard helps the rich? That's interesting
There is nothing wrong with anything (in absolute terms), it's all about intention. Intellectualizing is obviously an extremely important part of what we do, BUT, it is how you view and how you use this tool which determines outcome.
It is one thing to think something, it;s another to believe that your thoughts are true in any universal sense. Although they may come close to your own truth, it is only that way for that specific moment as all things knowable are in constant flux.
Faith is very important and I have always been closest with those who have great faith (mostly religious folks). There are many ways to seek truth and religion is one way that has created comfort for a great many over the centuries.
If you are able to give up your critical mind when it comes to other people, I believe you will find that simply observing the quality of another's existence will give you the best insight as to whether their path is working.
What comfort did religion give Abraham when it forced him to try to murder his only son? What comfort did it give Issac to know his God authorized his "hit?
I believe you are making this an emotional thing and therefore becoming idealistic. Economics is more about human nature.
Communisim is really bad news, and communism is a pipe-dream. I think everybody understands this (or should if they are aware of 19th/20th century history).
Capitalism works really well but needs to be regulated properly. The problems we have been having over the past 50-100 years have to do with two factors, political corruption and the corruption of markets. This is what happens when man gets involved with anything but the amazing thing is that even though this system is incredible distorted (by corruption), it still functions.
Much of the corruption has come from the socialization of almost every damn thing. The more government gets involved, the more opportunity there is for funny business. The solution is to clean house. We could do with a lot less government, but the government we do have needs to function properly.
I don't really know that much about formal religion, per se, but the people who I do know who are quite knowledgeable (and from what I have read) seem to believe that (on balance) it seems to be a positive force for individual and social good.
Perhaps you are better informed than am I.
Compare this to communism which is rather provincial in this respect, making a big deal of only a specific stratum of the human socio-political strucure to wit the so-called proletariat.
That out of the way, I have to admit that on this view the difference betwixt Buddhism (& Jainism) and communism is a matter of degrees and not kind, that the religion is faring much better than the political theory begs an explanation; after all, communism with its concern for the working class (only humans) is close to home while Buddhism is, in this respect, a completely radical outlook. It's as if a person performs better, is more successful when fae takes care of strangers rather than faer own family. A paradox in its own right.
You mentioned how a “fully enlightened person” can live a life full of suffering but not see this as good or bad, just simply the way it is. Aside from being nonsensical on the face of it — if it were actually experienced as neither good or bad then it would not be categorized as ‘suffering’ — it’s very odd that a person can’t tell if they suffer, particularly if they can see things with any clarity, or that there would be the least bit of hesitation in relating their experience.
Anyone can intellectualize that a life isn’t good or bad and is ‘just the way it is’. What we actually experience, on the other hand, precedes our intellection.
To be ashamed of suffering is itself suffering.
What you call "communism" I call Christianity. The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world.
The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable?
Capitalism worked much better while it had the threat of communism. The governments in the hands of the capitalists found it necessary to distribute part of their wealth to prevent the majority of the population from voting for the communists.
Today the next target of capitalism to beat is democracy. Hitler kept the capitalist system intact, funneling tens of billions of dollars to arms manufacturers, financiers, and industrialists. He cleaned up the state companies with public money to sell them to the capitalists and settle scores by looting the Jews and any opponents of the regime. He dismantled German democracy. Next? Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy. We all know what happened next: they increased the extortion apparatus of the German state, they looted the resources of the rest of the countries through the war machine (if you want, we can talk about oil and mineral resources from Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan) and they liquidated without hesitation anyone who opposed them abroad (especially in those "shit countries" that Trump was talking about).
The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity.
That's fair. Marxism/communism is very much like a religion.
Quoting praxis
That's false. There will always be a disparity of everything between individuals. It's just the way people are. Capitalism has its issues, no doubt, but look at what it has done to raise people out of poverty. If you don't believe this to be the case, you need to go back and study the history of the 16th-17th-18th-19th centuries. Life was brutal beyond belief.
Quoting praxis
You need to get over the Trump thing. Look at the fool who is president now. This guy was a joke in Delaware 50 years ago. Now he is just pathetic puppet of the left.
Quoting praxis
Sounds very much like the left's agenda.
Quoting praxis
You have one narrative and every single thing has to fit into it. You need to open your mind a bit and see that everything is not black and white.
The entire Marxist thing was put in the dumpster a few decades ago.
Your dumpster argument is black and white
Believing that humanity's salvation could be found within governmental structure is one of the greatest miscalculations of all-time.
It is about what reduces pain in life and death as you lay in a hospital bed. Foxnews says today "we're not communists, we don't like being told what to do". So their Christian heritage in the end made them prideful
Not entirely false, there's a tendency for government to side with capital, for obvious reasons, and the rights and power of the working class diminishes. Those lifted tend to not be lifted for long because it's an inherently unsustainable model.
Quoting synthesis
What has he done as president that is pathetic?
Perhaps you need to get over the Left thing.
Quoting synthesis
Trump Administration Civil and Human Rights Rollbacks
Anti-union Actions By The Trump Administration
Trump’s ‘Big Lie’ was bigger than just a stolen election
Quoting synthesis
Socialism is alive and well, even in America, though it could stand to be more widely adopted.
If you believe that the disparity of individuals (genetics?) explains differences in wealth, you have an adolescent's view of society. You better keep looking at the NBA. As far as I know, the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is explained in terms of robbery and murder. The most outlaw and scoundrel takes the jackpot. The super scoundrels control the government and exercise power so that their crimes do not land them in jail. Trump is the symptom. He is not Jefferson. He is not Roosevelt. He is an idiot, a manifestation that you end up in jail if you don't have enough money to avoid it. In Evil you trust. I'm afraid you're out outside of Christianity, of the morality indeed.
You can study contemporary history. Wikileaks, for example. In a world where the happiness of a few depends on the unhappiness and death of the majority, an attempt is made to condemn the messenger who publishes blood crimes. Do you know why former American leaders avoid leaving the country? It is not for the love of the country. Kissinger has spent decades on US soil avoiding activating an international arrest warrant for his responsibility in the criminal government of Augusto Pinochet. Are you read the parable of the temptations of Jesus in the desert? You have given in to the temptations of the devil and the worst thing is how little money must have been enough for you to bow down to him.
If you regards Biden as the left, you only manifests simplicity . Bernie Sanders is to the right of the ideology of any European Social Democratic party. Someone incapable of defending health coverage for the entire population, unemployment benefits, paid parental leave and the care of dependent parents, retirement and the protection of the most marginalized groups belongs to the left. They are absolute duties, performed in those states where bandits do not extract all the wealth of the nation through the government action.
No billionaire has been able to concentrate so much wealth except by stealing the present and future of entire generations inside or outside the country. If they are so patriotic, let them give half of their fortune to others. What measures do successive governments take? Lower his taxes. And you think it's good.
Gospel is too complex for Kindergarten. Keep watching the NBA. It is the Disney channel for adults.
I get all that but it's just the part that fits your narrow narrative. Tell you what, you accomplish what Trump has and then you can talk. I am no great Trump fan, as well, but you have to look at all things with balance. Do you believe that somehow you are intellectually enlightened and half the country are babbling idiots? If this is the case, then it is you who thinks as a child.
You write like a child. The worst thing is that you think like a child too.
I don't care about the Republican party or the Democrat. Ultra far right and far right respectively. It makes no difference to me that you criticizes Biden. Another old man like Trump.
Those politicians are for what they are for: saving taxes for billionaires, distributing debts and miseries to the rest of the population and, basically, poisoning the environment.
None of this seems to me to be of interest to the majority. To get the majority of people interested in issues that run counter to their material interest, they have to be alienated or infantilized. That is why I no longer will argue with you. It's like trying to teach algebra with a three-year-old... Do I seem insecure enough to you?
Yeah, and quite angry, as well.
Good luck to you!