Michael

I'm not saying that it would be false. I'm going along with your definition of "true" and "false". I'm asking if you have a different term to refer to...

That the proposition refers to a particular state of affairs depends on the individual thinking about it however they do, but that the state of affair...

We can have propositions that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain, even if everybody believes that they do obtain. According to your definiti...

Because we have propositions that refers to states of affairs that obtain and propositions that refer to states of affairs that don't obtain. These pr...

I'm not comparing propositions to states of affairs. I'm comparing states of affairs that obtain to states of affairs that don't.

I'm asking if we have a term that refers to a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that doesn't actually obtain. We already have the term "fa...

There is nobody else. There's just me. I judge the proposition to be true, but it refers to a state of affairs that doesn't obtain. What do we call th...

I refer you back to this: So let's say that we have some state of affairs that doesn't obtain, even though I believe that it does. Now lets say that I...

No, I'm asking what we call a proposition when the referent obtains, not when the reference obtains.

That's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking about when that state of affairs obtains (or doesn't), which is an objective matter, as you've admitted.

So what do you call a proposition that subjectively refers to a state of affairs that obtains? What do you call a proposition that subjectively refers...

But things might be other than they think it to be. They might believe that a particular state of affairs obtains even if it doesn't. And if the propo...

Yes. So what do you call a proposition that refers to a state of affairs that obtains?

Notice that your issue is with the Catholic Church, not with Christianity. And so by take same token, your issue should be with ISIS and Al-Qaeda and ...

Then what do you call them? Yes.

You haven't answered this. You've only explained what you mean by "true" and "false". I want to know what you call a proposition that refers to a stat...

I'm not talking about "true" or "false". I'm talking about a proposition referring to a state of affairs that does or doesn't obtain. What do you call...

I'm not saying that words refer to things mind-independently. I'm saying that, as a matter of inter-subjective convention, we agree to refer to a part...

How words come to refer to states of affairs isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not the states of affairs obtain. You've accepted that facts are...

Which part? States of affairs obtaining independently of our opinion or us agreeing which words refer to which states of affairs?

The state of affairs we agree it refers to obtains independently of our opinion. As you've said, the facts that propositions are about are objective.

I'm not denying that fact. I'm saying that it's ridiculous to then blame Islam. Men make up a far higher proportion of rapists than women. Do we then ...

Yes, and I also forgot about all the violent groups of other religions, and of no religion. There are monsters of every variety. You should attack the...

Huh?

ISIS is to Islam as the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity. Yes, they might be of those religions, but to refer to Islam ironically as the religion of pe...

Really?

It makes perfect sense. If we agree that "it is raining" refers to a state of affairs where water falls from the clouds, and if water isn't falling fr...

That misses the point, as I've explained. We're not disagreeing over how to describe an agreed-upon fact. We're disagreeing over the fact. And if we s...

And those judgements can be wrong. If, as a matter of convention, we accept that the proposition "X" refers to a particular state of affairs obtaining...

You seem to be misunderstanding the issue. It's not a case that we agree on what the objective fact is but disagree on which words describe that fact....

Right. Then if there being a blue bucket in your bathroom is an objective fact then "there is a blue bucket in your bathroom" actually describes an ob...

An example of an objective fact would be a good start.

So how do you conceive of these objective facts? What sort of things do you imagine them to be, particularly when nobody is around?

So these objective facts are fundamentally ineffable?

No you didn't. You told me what you call statements that are judged to describe a fact and that the proposition is just pixels on a screen. But I want...

I asked you what you call a statement that describes an objective fact and what you call a statement that doesn't describe an objective fact. As an ex...

No, you are. When I talk about the fact that there are two balls in the bag you respond by saying that the proposition "there are two balls in the bag...

Your position seems contradictory to me.

And that also includes the proposition "there are objective facts that in no way depend on there being humans of persons"?

And "facts in no way depend on there being humans or persons. If no life existed, the world would still be overflowing with facts" is just some pixels...

I don't understand that at all. If, for example, one of these objective facts is that there are two balls in the bag then the statement "there are two...

But you believe in objective states-of-affairs; of there being facts even in the absence of people. How does this not entail that some statements can ...

But what about a proposition that actually describes (or doesn't describe) a fact, irrespective of our judgements?

Then what do you call statements that don't describe facts?

What do you call statements that describe facts?

Nobody was saying that condemnation without action achieves anything. My point is that he's showing inconsistent principles by arguing against perceiv...

Will you offer better odds than Paddy Power? They have it at 8/11.

Trump or Trump's campaign?

I'm not saying that they would be just. I'm saying that they're not, and that this is a bad thing. What's the point? Jesus, are you just not human? Pe...

We're talking about justice, and how the Republicans are engaging in unjust political activity. You don't seem to care. And yet you do care about perc...