Pinprick

Just some thoughts, but do you think that you need to consider the fact that music is listened to more often in groups? Concerts, places of worship, s...

Didn’t realize that. Completely agree with you though.

Is this true? If so, that is certainly a violation of the separation of church and state.

Yes.

Kind of what I thought too, but do you think the context is important at all? For example, one of the main functions of the state, and thereby the gov...

Yes. Right, but because of the separation of church and state, their decisions can’t infringe upon the rights of others, or otherwise discriminate aga...

I took “x” to mean an actual object, not a statement or word, so it was my misunderstanding. Well, God is certainly only a concept, but I think that “...

Yeah, I’m not really trying to make some issue out of this. It just made me wonder.

:up: BTW, the distinction I make between “think” and “believe” is mainly a matter of confidence in whatever it is I’m saying being true. When I say I ...

I have no issue acknowledging that my beliefs are opinions, unless they are facts. But I don’t consider anything I’ve said I believed or thought in th...

Well, it seems relevant to the discussion to come to some sort of agreement (if possible). If you’re correct, then it is possible to have beliefs that...

Good. Then I guess the next question is whose categorization is correct. I’m really not sure how to go about justifying one categorization over the ot...

So you’re just categorizing things differently. Instead of beliefs and nonbeliefs, it’s “thoughts about existence” and “thoughts not about existence.”...

Think of it in terms of categories. You have one category that consists of beliefs (B), and one that consists of it’s opposite, nonbeliefs (~B). If X ...

Oh, I see. So, then my question would be wouldn’t that mean we would have to define belief, at least when talking about existence, as X as well as ~X?...

I don’t understand the difference between the two here. The topic of whether or not something exists consists of that thing existing, or not. This is ...

Well, I think you’re using a looser definition of science than I thought, but either way I disagree that I was taught pain or hunger. It also depends ...

Ok, so you’re claiming that not all thoughts are beliefs, but all thoughts regarding the existence of an object are beliefs. Did I get that right? If ...

No problem. Appreciate your good manners.

Ok, maybe it wasn’t included in my original examples, but the point still holds that it is valuable knowledge obtained independent from science. Scien...

Is it not appropriate to look towards the consensus of scholars/experts as a starting point to find the truth? What definition of knowledge should I h...

You may not have knowledge of these internal states reliably, but if your belief about these states is accurate then I think it counts as knowledge. W...

I have no problems with i or ii. I see i and ii as meta-beliefs, as they are referring strictly to a statement/proposition. Whereas iii is referring t...

What post of mine are you referring to?

Well, I consider this to be a scholarly discussion, so I think the consensus of scholars would be appropriate. It may not be true, and I’m aware of th...

No, not at all. I’m not trying to discredit science as a pathway to knowledge. I was just pointing out that science isn’t the only pathway that achiev...

But do you believe you are Frank?

It is an old definition, but I was under the impression that it was the accepted definition throughout epistemology and philosophy through consensus. ...

Or perhaps this? https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/knowledge You don’t believe you are Frank? Then who do you believe you are?

Knowledge is defined as justified true belief. You seem to be saying that belief isn’t required for knowledge. How then would you define knowledge?

If facts are not believed to be true are they still facts? Seems to me facts require belief in order to be facts. Facts can obviously be not believed ...

Yes. But I want to make the distinction that believing a proposition is false is different than believing something doesn’t exist.

Ok, I can accept that. I think that’s the point that @"180 Proof" was making. That denying that any Gods exist is a meta-belief in the truth value of ...

In hindsight, that was poorly phrased on my behalf. Yes Actually, I would say that a denial of existence cannot be a belief. If you deny that somethin...

I agree. However, I would propose that “what is true to you” = belief. Again, how can you believe something that you don’t think is true?

Which Dialogue are the two of you reenacting? :lol:

I agree with everything except the first sentence. How can you believe something you don’t think is true? Notice, I’m not suggesting that it must be o...

:up:

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that truth is irrelevant to the criteria of belief? To me, saying that something “is” implies that it exists...

Therefore, they do not actually believe, they just phrase it that way. Right? Also, I don’t think it’s an error to expect people to say what they mean...

Ok, then belief is defined as something you either think is or isn’t true?

My essential question of what the criteria is for beliefs remains unanswered as best I can tell. If a belief is “to think something is true,” then a b...

I’m asking why thoughts about existence must be beliefs. Why do those types of thoughts warrant the designation of “beliefs” when others do not?

Disbelief that any Gods exist means that you do not possess the belief that any Gods exist. Belief that no Gods exist means you possess the belief tha...

Ok. What justification can you provide for excluding thoughts about existence?

Nihilism. That should be your starting point. Then evaluate all claims using logic/reason until you are convinced. Then continuously challenge those c...

I think what we are missing is that beliefs imply the possession of some object. A belief is something you have. If what you “have” is nothing/an empt...

True, but can both be correct, or only one? Right, but wouldn’t you agree that not all thoughts are beliefs? If so, then the thought “no Gods exist” d...

I’m pretty sure Pinker had some data on this in The Better Angels of our Nature. However, he also brought up a lot of issues with the data on wars and...

If the term “empty set” suits you better, so be it. I think my point remains valid regardless. I’m not trying to determine the truth of anyone’s belie...