TheMadFool

The property of being a metal is too weak a link to draw such a conclusion. Your argument is susceptible to disanalogies because there are many metall...

I only want to address the point you made - that the sample (man-made objects) is inadequate for the generalization that ALL things are designed. You'...

Efficiency: Don't you think the universe is efficient? If "yes" then that's great design. If "no", can you give an example? You mentioned human bodies...

There is. man-made objects, as a group, is compared to the universe itself.

My point is very simple. Argument A: 1.A digital watch is more complex than a sun dial. 2. We infer, from the above, that a digital watch is designed ...

I'd like to refer you back to the notion of complexity when you draw from nature or the universe for examples of undesigned order. To illustrate take ...

Design wouldn't work without causality being true in some sense. There has to be some pattern that can be manipulated or directed for design to be pos...

Thanks for pointing at the possibility of equivocation between design and order. As someone in another thread was kind enough to explain that order is...

Assuming that I am conflating design and order what could be the reason for that? Could it be because the inference that order implies design(er) is a...

I don't agree with the concept of irreducible complexity. It flies against the natural process of creativity. For instance flight began as a simple to...

Not only awkward but also probably futile. How can a chimpanzee ever comprehend Mozart or calculus? In fact there are humans who can't do that. Nevert...

That's a great observation. I have a simple answer. Humans find the task of imbuing machines with sentience (artificial intelligence) a very difficult...

I think I understand what you mean. There are exceptions for any and all moral theoretic injunctions. However these exceptions don't constitute a divi...

:up: :up: :clap: :clap:

Why is it incoherent?

Great Post :up: However this isn't chaos giving rise to order. Anyway I can now conceive of order arising from chaos but such events would be improbab...

So there is a disharmony between individual morals and public ethics otherwise why make the distinction? How do you explain that? After all the public...

I find this confusing because game-theory is about strategy and that involves some rules which isn't chaos to my knowledge. Maybe I'm mistaken. Kindly...

:ok: Thanks Yes, that's what I actually want to discuss. The correct premise according to you and tim wood is: 1. If there is order in this universe t...

Are you saying order is subjective, it's more like an impression and not objective, a truth about reality? If yes then reality should be frequently co...

Yes. The universe is orders of magnitude more complex in its order, therefore requiring a designer. @"Terrapin Station" referred to a disanalogy betwe...

An intelligent designer would have intent of ends/objectives and then think of means to achieve these ends. Take your story of digging holes - it begi...

I'm keeping an open mind about this as I think you're suggesting but I don't see a satisfactory refutation to my argument which I will present again b...

I just thought of something and would like your opinion on it. Consider the universe as the universal set U. Now the design argument works by picking ...

What is religion? What is philosophy? Religion, if I may say so, concerns itself with morality which itself is based on the suffering-happiness dichot...

I may have posted the topic in the wrong category. The question concerns more about the logic of conditionals - very superficially perhaps - but I'm a...

Thanks. It's the wide-scale application of this heuristic (order/design ergo designer) in our everyday lives and then making a singular exception of r...

That's another side to the argument which I want to avoid at the moment. Thanks though.

What does what you say make you but a designer? You have a point but if order is insufficient to prove a designer can you give me a counterexample?

That's an ideal scenario we're asking for. However, I think the critical deciding factor is the resemblance between a watch and the universe - a certa...

There are grey areas but there are extremes that are recognizably good or bad. Perhaps if you look at these you'll get an idea of what I mean. Wishful...

Yes. Good point. Knowledge of watches is required to infer a watchmaker but the point is the universe does resemble a watch - an even bigger more comp...

Quite oddly, free will is necessary for morality.

:up: I think free will is very intimately linked to denial - to say no to anything that dictates a particular course of action and includes even the v...

I don't understand how we got this far into the discussion without you knowing what I'm talking about. By the way, any definition for "good" is accept...

Everyone disagrees. You might want to join the pack :joke:

Are you saying this particular inference - design ergo designer - is an erroneous tendency and unwarranted? Why? Name one instance of design without a...

Great question. I once asked a question about what more can we ask in addition to the seven basic questions of what, why, who, where, when, which, and...

I guess I'm being too optimistic. Thanks.

I don't quite accept the truth of the claim but it's something really worth investigating. Imagine cannabis, a plant, helping humans get along (social...

I'll try. Chemistry and Physics abound with laws that describe how matter and energy (anything else) should behave. I think Physics is the more fundam...

Isn't this just another way of saying the Quran is miraculous - the faculty of reason being incapable of producing the Quran? So, doesn't that prove m...

I've had many such experiences and the wikipedia article specifically mentions a loss of self which I construe to be zombie-like - lights are on but n...

I think the laws of nature that govern matter-energy shape all interactions we see in this world. The detail that you see is explainable through these...

They say the Quran is the miracle of Muhammad. Why? What's so miraculous about the Quran?

https://youtu.be/cCX5JJwkZhU That's the point actually. Thus the need for evidence and prophets provide it through miraculous feats.

Correct but the original sources (prophets and books) are supposedly verified through miracles which people seem to accept as true. The next generatio...

How so? :up: What, in your opinion, is the difficulty with using music as a language? Everyone can appreciate music and so a musical language isn't im...

Free will can't/shouldn't be restrained in any way at all and that implies that no moral injunctions should force its hands to do something/anything. ...

Well, the existence of moral laws can be explained by our rationality alone. Having no moral laws would severely hinder social cohesion, enough to the...