Disasters and Beyond: Where Are We Going?
I am asking about whether we can begin to think and act differently when we are confronted by the greatest disasters. The question is one which exists on a personal and collective level. But I wish to begin the exploration by framing it within the context of the current pandemic, but with awareness that the area of discussion is much wider.
I have been reading 'The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Our World After an Apocalypse,' by Lewis Dartnell (2014), in which he suggested that the people of the world would cope very badly if faced with a global disaster, including a pandemic He stated, 'People living in developed nations have become disconnected from the process of the civilisation that supports them,' and that, 'Our survival skills have atrophied to the point where humanity would be incapable of sustaining itself if the life-support system of modern civilisation failed, if food no longer magically appeared on shop shelves, or clothes on hangers.'
However, I do believe that the obstacle, beyond the creation of a vaccine which addresses mutant strains of the virus, is one which will require human beings to think and act differently, and this includes meeting all the other problems, especially poverty, in the aftermath. It will involve a whole new way of thinking, and most probably a way of rising above the individualist ethic which has been central to maintaining capitalist, consumer materialism.
The whole pandemic and other disasters bring us to confront uncertainty and call for us to be at our most resourceful. On a positive note, Ian Scoones and Andy Stirling,(2020),in, 'The Politics of Uncertainty (Pathways to Sustainability)', say that, 'The implications of uncertainty are so profound that they challenge existing hegemonic frameworks and institutions, and drive imaginations of a post-capitalist, sustainable future..'
I wish to ask whether we can we can change our thinking, in the face of disasters and uncertainty, in order to survive physically and psychologically? Each of us experiences different kinds of 'disasters' and we have all experienced the pandemic uniquely, amidst the other variables of our lives.
I believe that embracing uncertainty is a starting point. However, I wonder is it too weak ss a guiding force for bringing the changes in thinking needed for coping, and for practical changes to address disaster, personally and collectively. Of course, when we are in difficult circumstances we draw upon all philosophies, but I am wondering about how may we construct a philosophy for disasters? I do believe that we change through experiencing obstacles and a philosophy for disasters may draw upon the idea of resilience as a foundation.
I have been reading 'The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Our World After an Apocalypse,' by Lewis Dartnell (2014), in which he suggested that the people of the world would cope very badly if faced with a global disaster, including a pandemic He stated, 'People living in developed nations have become disconnected from the process of the civilisation that supports them,' and that, 'Our survival skills have atrophied to the point where humanity would be incapable of sustaining itself if the life-support system of modern civilisation failed, if food no longer magically appeared on shop shelves, or clothes on hangers.'
However, I do believe that the obstacle, beyond the creation of a vaccine which addresses mutant strains of the virus, is one which will require human beings to think and act differently, and this includes meeting all the other problems, especially poverty, in the aftermath. It will involve a whole new way of thinking, and most probably a way of rising above the individualist ethic which has been central to maintaining capitalist, consumer materialism.
The whole pandemic and other disasters bring us to confront uncertainty and call for us to be at our most resourceful. On a positive note, Ian Scoones and Andy Stirling,(2020),in, 'The Politics of Uncertainty (Pathways to Sustainability)', say that, 'The implications of uncertainty are so profound that they challenge existing hegemonic frameworks and institutions, and drive imaginations of a post-capitalist, sustainable future..'
I wish to ask whether we can we can change our thinking, in the face of disasters and uncertainty, in order to survive physically and psychologically? Each of us experiences different kinds of 'disasters' and we have all experienced the pandemic uniquely, amidst the other variables of our lives.
I believe that embracing uncertainty is a starting point. However, I wonder is it too weak ss a guiding force for bringing the changes in thinking needed for coping, and for practical changes to address disaster, personally and collectively. Of course, when we are in difficult circumstances we draw upon all philosophies, but I am wondering about how may we construct a philosophy for disasters? I do believe that we change through experiencing obstacles and a philosophy for disasters may draw upon the idea of resilience as a foundation.
Comments (92)
I definitely believe this must be at the core of planning and prevention. So, given that there's too much uncertainty, what are the things we can do to survive? That means going back to basics - going back to the community level, ensuring that each community can survive independently with regards to food/water/shelter/medical needs etc...when such disasters strike.
On an individual level, it means having to connect with your community. No man is an island and each individual has something to contribute to the success of the whole. That must be the mentality moving forward.
Throughout history, we've seen megacities rise and fall and the simple truth is that they're simply not sustainable or adaptable. Cities are built on specific conditions. Remove/change/alter those conditions and the city will fall. So far, all modern society has been built towards making cities bigger and bigger with little regard to what made them big in the first place.
So, the thinking must change. Focus on building communities. Govern them so that population growth matches the capacity of the area but create more communities for expansion - again only if the environment can accept the expansion.
You say that 'the thinking must change,' and of course you are right but the question is whether it is too late? The problem is that all this uncertainty has arisen when, previously, for many everything was too certain. There was no planning for a pandemic on this scale.
I realise that you are from the Phillipines and probably your society is more community orientated. In England, as I said to you in the thread on human nature, it is easy for people to become isolated, especially if they are not living with family. I think that this has become more acute as a result of the pandemic, and, in a way, the rules of social distancing are reinforcing isolation. Of course, it is important that the virus is not to be spread, but this is making the community spirit fragment altogether. Many are critical of English people amidst the pandemic, for not adhering to rules. The way in which rules have been broken may be because policies have not looked at the problem of how the community is fragmenting. The whole emphasis is on the individual who is becoming unwell mentally or drinking too much, but the social contexts are not being explored fully. Of course people need to avoid potential situations to prevent the spread of the virus but the danger is that people become more self-control, ignoring the needs of others.
As no planning was made for this pandemic, perhaps all that we can hope for is that, through learning from the present, there will be more planning for future disasters. I remember having a conversation with a friend in the summer, in which I said that I hoped that the whole experience of Covid_19 would change us all for the better in some ways. My friend said that by Christmas people would have forgotten about it completely and have gone back to their usual routines and behaviour. At the time, none of us knew that the whole problem would be much worse rather than better at Christmas and beyond. We still do not know what is going to happen and I believe that we are going to be changed, and have to change, by what is happening.
Well, clearly, it is too late for this disaster but then this will not be the last disaster. Climate change, extreme weather, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts, and some stray asteroid - can all upend humanity.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I have a theory that the larger and more "advanced" or affluent the city, the easier it is to end up being isolated. Which is counter intuitive, because how can being in a higher population cause us to feel more isolated?
Well, the reality is that these cities basically provide everything to the individual. So, there is no need to behave or think communally. Food, water, medical, shelter are all available to the individual without needing to establish any kind of connection with their neighbors.
However, when it comes to the poorer populations, it is still necessary to think communally.
In both cases, it is very clear that humanity cannot sustain mega-city life. It is poorly equipped to manage any calamity and it takes massive cultural change to get to a level of proficiency that the city can survive and recover. But it is definitely possible.
Japan has done it countless of times. But again, the culture there has evolved and adapted to calamity being a normal part of life. I don't know who else (among the G7) is as well equipped. 3rd world countries also have highly adaptable cultures because again, there's not much you can take away from those who didn't have much to begin with.
They missed the truth of why civilizations continuously rise and fall. Sodom, Gomorrah, Mohenjo Dahro, and every other ancient city that was destroyed or abandoned was NOT because of "god's wrath." It was simply because the conditions changed and the massive lumbering giant of a city wasn't able to adapt and adjust fast enough.
Perhaps we are at a critical crossroads on the question of where humanity is going? In a metaphorical sense this may be the day of judgement, and we judge ourselves ultimately.
In the 200 thousand years of our species' existence, we've gone through many such upheavals. The last major one 70 thousand years ago wiped us out to a point that our population went down to less than 10,000 individuals.
This current iteration, with a "clear history" that's just over 2,000 years and a possible root of 12,000 years, has so far muddled things so badly that it's only now that we're seeing what really happened. We wasted 2,000 years of preparation. But, as long as there is life, there is hope.
Unfortunately, the path that mankind chose - culminating to the mega city, is NOT the answer. It is the mistake. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can start preparations for the next phase, the next calamity.
But actually, the modern science based civilisation has responded rather well to the pandemic, on average. People have changed their behaviour a good deal in a short time, politicians have deployed the war metaphors, and most of us have learned to manage without professional haircuts and foreign holidays. Which is to say that people in general adapt very quickly, but governments do not.
It has never been the case that survival skills were solitary skills. Social animals are social for their survival and cannot survive as isolated individuals, and it is this simple truth that has been somewhat suppressed by consumer capitalism to the extent that one right wing leader famously claimed 'there is no such thing as society'.
But of course we depend on each other and always have. There is no going back to the good old days when everyone could knapp their own flint - they never could. And it is communication that lifts the social mentality from the herd mentality. We have had a century of lies and propaganda becoming more prevalent and have almost reached the point where government has become unbelievable which entails that people become ungovernable. People do what they are told to the extent they trust what they are told. The economy runs on trust and good faith - another term of abuse, 'faith' - but call it 'confidence', and it is what preserves the value of money and the whole economy.
It is easily seen that Covid presents a mere inconvenience to those countries that have the good governance to respond effectively, and that populism is the worst performer, because it relies on fantasies of heroes and so on. Climate change is much more of a problem, but again, if we know the truth, and we know what we have to do, and we organise, it is still resolvable.
Yes, I think that the Tower of Babel metaphor is good for explaining the communication problems of this time. We are being swamped and overwhelmed with information. I think that there is probably a lot going on below the surface of the news we are being given and the mass media serves the interests of the wealthy elites. I believe that the majority of people are trying to abide by the rules and the way in which we are being given so much prescriptive guidance is leading to a lot of anger. It is very well for the leaders to keep telling people to stay at home when they are able to relax in the comfort of luxury homes.
Somehow, I do believe that we have been on the brink of disaster for some time. Could we have expected to escape some event of an inevitable catastrophic event? Perhaps the Covid_19 virus, initially blamed on China, is nature's wake up call for the way in which overpopulation and industrialisation are damaging the ecology of the planet.
The one point on which I do wonder is you say that for some countries the pandemic is a 'mere inconvenience' because I am not convinced that we have seen the worst that is to come, and wonder if what we are seeing is only the beginning. Here, I am talking of the possibility of far more mutant strains of the virus and more deadly viruses. Of course, I hope that I am wrong.
Really, I swing between pessimism and optimism. Part of me thinks that the whole pandemic is going to bring forth so many crises. But, another part of me believes that the disasters may bring opportunities for positive change. Maybe, the reality will be a mixed picture. But, to some extent I think that while the leaders need to take responsibility, we may all have to make changes in order to help others and for the wellbeing of others and for the future of the planet.
Perhaps we will see a move away from cities, and smaller less centralised forms of living, as recommend in E F Schumacher's 'Small is Beautiful'.
The role of money might change in the future too. In the worst possible scenario we may see a greater division between the wealthy and the poor. However, I do wonder if poverty became so great whether money might cease to exist at all. Here, I am thinking that if great numbers became homeless because they could not afford to rethink. This is because it might not be that property was not available but that people could not afford it, so it would have to remain empty, or perhaps other solutions could be found.
If those in poverty became the majority perhaps we would really see people rising up to overthrow the capitalist system. Or perhaps ways of exchange could take place, such as barter. The only problem with barter is that some vulnerable individuals may not be able to contribute much, so they could still be left out, so economic inequality might not be changed.
At times, I find that all these areas of thought are rather depressing but I am hoping that there will positive aspects at the other side of potential disasters. I hope that it will not just be more calamities, because at this stage in human evolution, surely humanity could find creative ways of living which involve compassion and less destruction.
A friend told me that he heard talk of a new higher developed form of human being born, mentioned on some radio programme. I have never heard of this, but it is an interesting idea, because can we just assume that the present human beings are the highest form possible, or whether there could be new mutations?
Yeah I've thought about this too. Whether it's capitalism, feudalism, communism, cash or barter - it would still be the same. You would have the ruling elite who control most assets and the mass poor.
There would be an uprising but as we've seen, things revert back to that formula anyway. Like how the bolsheviks overthrew the Russian monarchy. They ended up with Lenin, Stalin and now Putin.
Quoting Jack Cummins
There are already communities today that live in a cooperative/environmentally stable way. But they're still in the early stages and are very small. We need to see something stable like that but in a population of 10,000. I'm thinking that's the number because that's how many mankind was when it had to rebuild itself to almost 8B after 70k years.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yup. Both France and China have super soldier programs already. Wouldn't be surprised if other rich countries are trying to perfect our genetic code to make us more disease resistant.
But I don't agree with that. We barely know much about these genes to be fiddling about with them. The way I see it, every time we try pushing something forward, we'll inevitably see some other unforseen thing being pulled along with it.
So are the new form of human beings being engineered genetically? What are they being programmed to do, or to serve?
It is a bit worrying. I also know many people who are afraid of the vaccine. Some people are concerned about what the vaccine contains. It is sometimes hard to sort out the facts from the fiction.
As of now China and France are intending to engineer soldiers but I'm not sure what degree of enhancement we're talking about here.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I'm a bit concerned too so I'm thinking of waiting a few months to see what the possible side effects could be.
But then again, I'm sure your country would only provide the best vaccine. For us, it's likely the vaccine that the officials can make the most money off of. So, it wouldn't exactly be the best quality.
Yes, it is rather worrying if your country does not get a quality vaccine. I had not really thought about some countries not getting the best, or trying to make money.
So the whole idea of creating 'better' human beings is to make them more disease resistant? I don't know if this is even possible because human beings are living systems and will inevitably get sick in some way or another, especially under stress. The danger is that if they are not able to get certain diseases they may just develop new kinds of diseases altogether.
I would have thought it more helpful if people were given the best life conditions to thrive, in order to avoid certain illnesses, rather than be enhanced. However, saying that I know that on one of my ex-tutors has written some books on medical enhancement and at the time I heard of that it did not concern me. It just sounded a bit unusual but now that I am hearing of the idea being put into practice it is a bit disturbing, mainly because we don't know the political interests of those putting the idea into practice.
So far that, aesthetics for the non-military and strength/endurance/intelligence for the super soldiers.
That said, I think people wildly underestimate how redundant supply chains are and how much surplus food the developed world creates, the USA in particular. The US could loose half its agricultural output and still easily feed everyone if it shifted away from livestock and towards staple grains. It could still manage national supply chains on domestic oil alone.
High rates of myopia in modern urban populations would be a problem in some sort of total collapse scenerio for sure.
I think I'd be ok. My neighbor has enough cattle on my property to last us years if only we ate it, plenty of deer around, catfish in our pond, and a lot of geese come there. I have hardly any ammunition in the house, but I am pretty sure I could get these geese with my recurve bow. They are stubborn enough that you basically have to kick them out of the way. I could throw some bread down and then get them from 2 feet away. Gardening without running water would be harder, but I actually have rain barrels, I'm just too lazy to use them all the time.
I had a shit ton of pumpkins by pure accident in my last batch of compost that lived without watering.
I'd be thriving on an all pumpkin and deer diet until the raiders got me. Maybe I'd get bored enough to finally finish The Phenomenology of Spirit...
I have just woken up and read your reply and am just aware of how different your life is to mine. I can't imagine what it is like to be thinking of survival in terms of cattle. I prefer vegetarian food, but seeing your response did make me smile because it was certainly not the sort of response I expected.
My latest disaster is that the electrics in my room, but not the light have gone wrong. The plug socket is making wiring noises so I dare'nt use. I will have to buy batteries to be able to listen to my music. I phoned my landlord and he is going to get someone to look at it.
In the grand scheme my moaning makes me realise how a little disaster can seem big. In the meantime I will try to stop feeling sorry for myself and perhaps I will read instead of listening to music.
I ended my dialogue with you yesterday evening because I had to phone my landlord because the electric socket on the wall was making noises.
However, my thoughts on a new transhuman species of soldiers being genetically engineered on the aesthetics of strength, endurance and intelligence is that these three principles are exactly what are needed to cope with disasters. Personally, I wish that I had more of these strengths.
I also have been thinking that it is also important to think about coping with disaster on a personal level, and I mean this in a positive way. I have edited my title to include 'beyond' because I am trying to consider disasters not as an inevitable end but as something that we can live with and go beyond. This involves going beyond the position of being catastrophic in thinking. This is important in coping in the light of the pandemic and in all difficulties.
One book which I have read in the last couple of days is 'Resilience: How the Stories we tell become the lives we live' by George Howick. He argues that, 'There is no such thing as an inherently good, or bad event', and that, 'It is the embrace of this principle that will give us the best perspective and mental clarity to achieve the best possible outcome from our situation. ' I have to admit that I often think the worst when a disaster occurs but I do realise that it is our response to a disaster which is so important, because we can be broken by it or we can use it as a positive turning point.
Anyway, yeah disasters can be considered as natural occurrences. They do indeed have very negative effects but we can prepare for them and recover from them.
This is the mentality the Japanese have. Their major cities are along the ring of fire. There are many powerful earthquakes and tsunamis.
That's why when there are disasters, the people remain calm and all seem to know exactly what to do. The stores immediately start giving away blankets, water and the restaurants and bars start packing food. Everyone lines up and waits their turn and then move towards a designated safe zone.
Damage, injuries and even death is often unavoidable but the chaos is drastically minimized when the citizenry remain calm and orderly. Recovery is also much faster.
On a side note, it seems to me that they're also no stranger to pandemics since they culturally avoid contact - bowing vs shaking hands, they also leave their shoes outside and wear slippers inside, money is also placed on a little basket so you don't have to touch hands. They also have gods for pandemics that you can invoke by some ritual
What a perfect way to describe what has happened to the US. The people have become disconnected from the process of the civilization that supports them. Don't believe me? Name 10 principles of democracy. How did we come to have a democracy and make human rights a political concept? Maybe if you are European or British you can answer the questions, but it is highly unlikely a US citizen can do that, and for this reason, I take your thread very seriously. If we do not know history we become disconnected from who we are and I am so excited with this realization sparked by what you said. This is how the US became an Empire of Illusion created by Trump and the US media that has forgotten what freedom of speech has to do with protecting our democracy while they focus on their popularity and making money.
I am blown away by how far we gone in this process! In past recessions, we have not helped people as we are doing now. We are not doing as well as I think we should because we seem to be stuck in denial, but maybe one day the US will break out of denial and do better.
That looks like a book to read.
This is a no brainer. I am thrilled by how differently we are going through this economic disaster. I wish we went through every economic disaster so well!. I remember one of our past presidents making war of the victims of the economic disaster created by OPEC embargoing oil to the US, and how we slashed domestic budgets to pour money into military spending and all the lies leadership told the public and the media cooperation in spreading the lies. This time, although another president lied to us and some media was complicit in spreading the lies, some leaders and some media told us the truth in some states and Congress is giving the economic victims money. So much depends on the media and telling the people the truth or lying to them.
I believe basic to our ability to survive disasters is our education, especially education in democracy and it's philosophical foundation. This might include religion, preferably if that includes all religions because they teach the basic human values of good behavior. Information can radically change human consciousness and democracy as a social/political order, is vital to our ability to work together. I think another improvement is to give our economy a democratic order.
Do you know of a book that explains the Japanese way? On the public broadcasting channel, I have seen how well organized Japanese neighborhoods are and this includes working together to keep children safe. I think knowledge of the Japanese could be a huge improvement for the US. The US has held some pretty ugly notions of humanity and why the elite are more deserving and how the US is superior to the rest of the world. This is embarrassing and US citizens need to work on this problem. We are still denying our homeless shelter, stability, water, and sanitation even though we have the technology to do better and instead of being reasonable about this, we drive them away because we want to protect our middle-class standard of living. In my community, we are doing better but we serve only a small percentage of those who need a safe place to sleep, and we not even protecting all the children but put them on a waiting list and leave them with no safety. This mentality is prevailing even during the pandemic. Good luck USA if the pandemic continues or another disaster strikes. We are not doing as well as we need to. Our mentality is still ugly.
I am writing a joint reply because it seems most appropriate because I just had a scare that my mother had Covid_19. I got a phone call this evening, but fortunately a test was done very promptly and she was negative, but until I got the call I was in a panic. But I told my flatmates that I might have to self-isolate because I saw my mum a few days ago and one of them said that I had better go and be with her. I could not believe the ignorance of this. But of course it is a big relief that she has a chest infection rather than the virus.
However, I did go into disaster mode. I would also be meant to self-isolate if she had it because I saw her 3 days ago. This would be extremely difficult in shared accommodation. The policy makers do not realise how difficult all the rules and regulations are difficult to practice in settings such as accommodation with shared facilities. I know that the level of the virus has escalated in London in spite of lockdown. I wonder if this is because many people are in cramped, overcrowded living arrangements. I was able to distance far better until everyone was told to stay at home, because I found private corners.
Anyway, I am trying to rise above potential disasters and hoping that an electrician will come to look at my socket. The landlord said he does not know if anyone can come during lockdown but that could be 2 months or more. I will get a lot of reading done if I am not able to use any electrical items in my room. I am having to charge my phone in the kitchen and will have to buy batteries to listen to CDs.
I hope that future posts are not about me wallowing in my own disasters as if people log into this site for the first time and see this out of context they will think the thread is about moaning. Of course, I don't object if people do share their experiences of disaster because philosophy is about real life rather than pure theory. It may be about trying to juggle the two together creatively.
Unfortunately, no. Everything I know about them is based on our visits. I used to work for a company that did a lot of business in Japan.
Don't get me wrong, they can also be complete animals (as in the WWII, and there's still crime and everything, and this whole dolphin and whale slaughter ritual they have) and sometimes they can get rowdy and racist when they're drunk but as soon as an authority figure sees what's happening, they immediately fall in line and make a very loud apology and express their shame.
On our last trip, we saw a man lying on the sidewalk. There were two police officers "guarding" him. I didn't know what it was then we found out that the man had too much to drink and had passed out. The police were protecting him. Wow.
So, their culture is simply about doing what's right. They have this Code of bushido or this code of honor that exemplifies loyalty, honor, righteousness. It got lost somewhere in the war but upon losing, they went back to this code and completely went away from war becoming more pacifist - I'm assuming it's from the Buddhist influence. They also have the Shinto Religion - many gods for all sorts of things (mainly nature).
Interestingly, Christianity was introduced but then it was largely met with hostility and was completely banned by government. Christians had to worship in secret caves and such. But of course it's all open now but you don't see Japanese flocking to it since they already have a very strong sense of cultural identity.
Quoting Athena
It's like that in many places where you have such divided politics and the division itself has become part of the culture - Democrat, Republican, for example. Any kind of division is an obstacle. And that gap appears to be quite large and so, needs a lot of bridging. But bridging will be difficult if you have whole populations actively or violently trying to tear those bridges down.
That's great news! Well, you're not gonna believe this but upon testing, my mom apparently has antibodies, which means she already got it but nobody knew. She was asymptomatic. Definitely relieved as well as shocked since she only stayed in her apartment. We're thinking it might be from some delivery - you have to be diligent and wipe down those packages with disinfectant. We're probably being paranoid but the last thing we want is to have to spend time in some local hospital or triage unit - both really unlivable.
[quote]Quoting Jack Cummins
I think this pandemic is showing all of us that we are all in the same boat. This isolates us, yes. But it also proves that we're all one people dealing with this thing. This virus is giving everybody problems no matter where you are, no matter what class you're in.
I hope people can see that reality and start to focus on our commonalities instead of our differences.
I think that you make a really good point in saying how the pandemic is a situation in which we are all affected. I think on that level it can raise awareness and bring wisdom. As you say, let's hope that people can 'start to focus on our commonalities instead of our differences.'
My daughter and granddaughter have high-risk jobs. They have been in the same space with infected people. My daughter was sharing an office with an infected co-worker so she has been in quarantine this past week. That means everyone, where she works, has been overloaded with work with two people missing.
Actually, I am kind of holding my breath because I am waiting for a phone call. If I do not get a phone call by 10 a.m. I tested negative. It is not because of my family that I am being tested, but it is required before I do a stress test to check my heart, and I can't drink coffee today :grimace: That is a serious problem! I depend on coffee to get through the day.
My granddaughter's daughter is living with a caregiver and there will be emotional ramifications to this. My granddaughter's son was living with the same caregiver but did not do well there so he returned home and is old enough to care for himself but I don't think he is doing his school work as he should. A lot of children just are not doing their school work but fortunately, the daughter living with a caregiver is doing school work beyond her grade. She gets along perfectly with her care giver and loves being her teacher's favorite student. So there are some children who are excelling in school and that has to make getting through the pandemic easier for them. They are busy doing something they need to do and can be satisfied with their progress. Instead of every day being as the day before and no progress.
And yes, Jack, if philosophy is not about our everyday experiences, then what purpose does it have? Some threads in the forum are so philosophically purest, so dependent on having a good understanding of something in a book, that I totally avoid them. They are meaningless to me. I want philosophy that applies to be my struggles. It is philosophy that helped me keep my sanity when times were rough.
Yes, life is too stressful. Even though I am so relieved that my mum was negative for Covid_19 I have not recovered really from all the anxiety of yesterday.
I do agree with not being able to drink coffee is awful, worse than not being able to play music really. I think coffee is the elixir for philosophy. I remember when I was at work if something really awful happened other staff members knew that I needed a coffee in order to think clearly.
I would say that philosophy loses its meaning when it becomes too detached from our life experiences and that is probably why I started this post about disasters. I don't understand why people want to engage in discussions which are more like word games.
The most ancient philosophers asked big questions but they were also engaged with the issues of day to day existence. Some people might choose to ignore this thread because there is a thread on Coronavirus already, but I am concerned about what the situation we are being thrown into. I think that we are being pushed in directions we never expected, and it requires a whole new way of seeing and existing.
Perfect, you totally get the importance of coffee. :grin:
And thank you! I am not interested in philosophical discussions that are like word games. They give philosophy a bad reputation and so turn people off they make no attempt to learn of philosophy. That is a shame.
Whoo, dude! I just googled for a philosophy dealing with disaster and your thread comes up. I wanted the name of a philosopher whose philosophy includes how disasters affect us and tell us how to think through the hard times, but all that is there is your thread. So Jack will you become the expert philosopher everyone turns to for understanding how to cope with disasters or the importance of hard times to our ability to cope with life?
I do not know exactly how philosophy differs from psychology, and while some philosophers have addressed the importance of history I am not sure if anyone has adequately explained our human experience. Explaining how natural disasters have influenced Japan is a step in the right direction, but in the US we seem to live in denial of how wars and economic crashes shape our human experience. We speak of life going back to normal, but what does that mean for children whose ideas of life and "normal" are forming during covid?
There is something deeper here. I am not sure what that is. For the people of the God of Abraham, there is the expectation of the last days. Mayans had a calendar and an expectation of cyclical good years and bad years building to a critical moment in time when heaven and earth are one. New Age believers can see all that talk as different points of view of the same thing. We have lived with a notion of what is to come and does that help us cope or hinder us? Is running around without a mask and insisting on gathering at church and relying on God and welcoming the last days, working well with those of us who rely on science? :chin:
The US also had a standard of horror and it was very much a part of our education. We used heroes from around the world and since the earliest civilizations, to teach every single child how to be a hero.
We totally understood some people were not as smart as others and they would be laborers while others would go on to the college, but everyone learned of the little boy who saved his town by putting his thumb in the hole in the dam. Everyone has an important part to play and we have lost that notion.
Doctors doctored for the love of healing and lawyers worked for a love of justice and journalist knew they were defending our democracy. This was the effect of using hero stories and folklore to teach morality and citizenship.
I am sure this was damaged by the Great Depression and world war. When young ladies began wearing bras and shorts and then became pin-up girls motivating the men to wear uniforms, our society was changed in a fundamental way, and the change was pushed further by WWII and the more advanced technology of that war and the 1958 National Defense Education Act putting the advancement of technology above human values, putting competition above cooperation. Now we have a history of giving our lives for our liberty and we are thinking we will be better off when we surrender our liberty to robots and computers. We are valuing technology more than human values.
I am sure unless we agree with Thomas Jefferson about the importance of education for a strong and united republic, we will fail. If our education does not return to the set of American values that every child learned, and continues to put technology, and money, above human values, we may not get through the transition that must be made at this time.
Seriously it should be obvious to everyone that the God of Abraham religions are divisive and leading us to the last days. We may not wear masks, but Israel is ignoring the wisdom of respecting Palestinians and working with them for peace, dragging all of us into wars and possibly the final war. Seeing the world today and believing we are in the last days, could make this the last days. But the Greeks saw life as a fire and that someday the fire would be greater than what is left to consume. Human values and science are very important right now.
I found it amusing that you googled the philosophy of disasters and found my name. However, in a way I am not that surprised but that is why I try to be a bit careful how much personal information I disclose. I don't want to create a pseudonym, so I just try to make sure that I can stand according to what I write.
On a more serious note, I do worry at times that it is the end times of history. What is worse is that if belief in this becomes a self'fulfilling prophecy. I think that the idea of the end of history was a core part in the arms race, especially some American strands of Christianity. Really, I think that we are at a crossroads and we, as a collective force, may determine the fate of humanity. I find this scary. Of course, the leaders play a key role but perhaps what each of us thinks and does is important too. Perhaps we are all like individuals cells in a gigantic organism and no one can say how much influence one has in the grand scheme.
I did a different google search and got a different result. The link explains a disaster philosophy could shape government policy and that means a possible career choice for you.
Getting in touch with our mortality and facing a disaster as big as this pandemic may change us. But we need to think beyond the disaster itself. I think one reason we are prone to war is we don't really grasp the reality. History calls men who lead senseless wars "Great" and they have been honored and children have been encouraged to play war games. I wonder how we may have evolved if women wrote philosophy and history? When women write of war it is not the story men write. Here is an example of how a woman wrote of war...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/books/review/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan-an-excerpt.html
So in a pandemic, might the experience be different if women have power? I certainly think so. Many women have power today, and not since Roosevelt has the federal government of the US done so much to help citizens. Roosevelt's wife had a strong influence on him. When Bill Clinton gave his wife political power, he was perceived as weak, and she had to stop being so public about her participation in the policies her husband was working on. The US has not been accepting of a woman or person of color in the presidency. This appears to be changing and how the US is responding to this crisis is new for us.
Yeap the subject can be complex. And Jack, I think what is happening could be controlled by forces out of our control. It could have direction and purpose. I just like the New Age story a whole lot better than the Christian one.
I am interested in the idea of the New Age more than conventional Christianity but we need to understand the movement in its historical context. It has some roots in Christianity and also a basis in Eastern philosophy. In a way it is utopian, but I think that the term is becoming a bit outdated because people became disillusioned with it. In the New Age movement there was the whole idea of moving from the age of Pisces to that of Aquarius. I do embrace this idea but I think that many people on this site may regard such an idea as mystical jumbo.
I think that we are best focusing on possible ways forward independently of labels and we don't really know, in an ultimate sense if the idea of the age of Aquarius is real objectively. However, going into Joseph Campbell's thinking we could say that it is certainly a mythic truth.
Obviously, I am going into the realm of speculation that fantasy, but I am wondering what mythic visions can take us beyond the mess we are in? I think that this applies on the personal and collective level. I am not saying that this is more important than the political, economic and social dimensions of life but I do believe that all these matters are deeper than what is apparent in the media. I am just wondering as an idle dreamer and when I added to the title this evening it was my call to the universe for some gems of wisdom to emerge from possible hitherto unexpressed ideas of members of the forum.
How do we feel when we see wealthy and privileged people who ignore travel restrictions because the are accustomed to the rules not applying to them? Not all of these people are on the Right wing. There are many people who would watch the world burn if it would advance their careers in every place and every walk of life. There's no ideology which exempts you from also needing to consciously choose to be a good person.
Now I'll address the other side of the coin. I think it's even impossible to discuss the issue of disaster preparedness in an honest way without addressing the issue of Right-Wing recalcitrance. These are the people who are hardest to convince. The weak point of the right wing is the poor, white male. All efforts by liberals should focus on appealing to these voters. But most of us won't accept that because we are committed to thinking which is heavy with themes of appreciating other cultures, intersectionality, and the like. We must be honest with ourselves and realize that such thinking is useless and serves no purpose in staving off the impending crisis.
Yeah, at the very least, we should try to learn as much as we can so that we don't keep making the same mistakes.
I guess this is really what's it's all about. How we're dealing with this worldwide phenomenon will be a precursor to how we deal with subsequent problems that will affect mankind. The more we cooperate and listen to the science, the better off we'll be.
The last thing we need is to allow extreme conspiracy culture to affect our decisions. We need to develop a culture that's more reliant on factual, verifiable data.
With regards to information, I do think that we are in a crossroads.
We're already seeing the danger of allowing unverified information to be passed around so easily.
I am not sure that we do know what to do exactly, but you make some good points. As far as the pandemic is concerned, even if people follow guidelines, it is not that simple to get rid of the virus. This is made clear by the whole problem of mutant strains. I live in London and we are now in a state of emergency. There were probably people not following guidelines but it is too easy to point fingers at people. The main problem seems to have stemmed from a mutant strain of the virus which seemed to arise in Kent. The virus is an entity in itself and it is unknown. All the guidelines are only guidelines because we are dealing with an unknown variable. We have lockdowns but they may only delay contagion and we don't know if the vaccines are going to overcome the mutant strains and how long they will last.
Generally, you speak of the need to be a good person. I am not denying the importance of that intent. However, there is not a clear definition of what a good person is. We had 2000 years of people trying to apply the ethics of Christianity in Western culture and look how that has ended up.
You also point to the political system and of course that is essential. But that is such a contentious area, as evident by all the heated debate. I am not sure that the whole debate between left and right even gets to depths of the problem any longer. I would say that the ecologists are making important critiques, but applying them in the context of the current predicament is a major hurdle.
I may come across as a bit grim, and I do get depressed about the whole mess we are all in. I would say that I struggled between pessimism and optimism in the first place. However, I think that what the pandemic has done is that it has put all problems under the magnifying glass. Some people may ask, amidst the overwhelming bleakness hanging over us, should we just give up? I think that this belief is the reason why mant people have become so self''-centred. Being overwhelmed and feeling powerless is a the biggest danger is a big hurdle we have to overcome, as part of the process beginning to make positive changes.
I agree with you that we need science to come up with answers. We also probably need wisdom. With conspiracy theories, if taken concretely they lead us to a deadend. But I do have to admit that they raise questions. I have wondered at times if the Covid_19 virus could be germ warfare, especially in the wake of new strains arising in different parts of the world. Right at the beginning I wondered about the whole tension between China and America. I am not saying that I do believe that it is germ warfare but perhaps conspiracy theories do raise some interesting questions.
I agree that greed and stupidity are problems and probably a lot of people don't have the motivation to overcome them. Do you have any ideas on how they can be addressed on a collective level because I am not sure that education or politics even addresses them fully.
I think rather than try to reconcile disparate ideologies we should just focus on a pragmatic governance platform oriented around reducing national debt, for example. Then the number one opportunity for large gains in that direction is through progressive regulation of corporations. Take away their privileges and make them accountable. I think that is the key to stabilizing both the economy and society.
Do you think that the pandemic will have any impact on capitalism? I have wondered if it will make an even greater divide between the wealthy and the poor, or whether it could cause such chaos, to make money obsolete. Have you any view or ideas about this?
I think practically everything that happens tends to increase the divide between the wealthy and the poor, Jack. That's the trend that we have to start reversing.
I have no beef with capitalism per se, but it has to be regulated, just like everything else in this world. Otherwise it just becomes an outlet for the most materialistic of human motives.
I think the pandemic is potentially a huge wake-up call. If we somehow manage a cohesive response, the pandemic could well teach us our true power as a coordinated collective. Great things could come of that. Unfortunately I see that opportunity daily slipping away.
Yes, I am not against capitalism in itself and can see the value of the ideas of Adam Smith. But, as you say, it is a problem if not regulated and materialism is a problem. I am inclined towards the view that we need a mixture of capitalism and socialism.
It is a horrific reality and problem that almost everything seems to increase the division between the rich and the poor.
I have been hoping that the pandemic could be a wake up call. I hope that you are wrong to think that the chance is slipping away. If this is not the opportunity I don't think there ever will be one. Do you think there is any hope for a better world? In saying that, I am thinking of poverty and the redistribution of wealth, but also the whole problem of ecology and climate change. I already saw on my phone today that there is a prediction for 2021 to be the hottest ever. Sometimes it does feel like the end of the world but I do have some belief that it could also be some kind of beginning of a new cycle.
Oh yeah such theories can definitely be interesting but I think we need to keep it clear that these are just theories. And true or not, they don't really help change the reality of what we're dealing with unless we give them importance to the point where we start denying reality itself (like what so many have done to the detriment of their fellow countrymen).
I think that the danger is probably when people end up really believing in the conspiracy theories and I would guess that the people who write the books really do. I have to admit that I probably enjoy some of the ideas of extreme thinking just because they stimulate my imagination to view possible alternative ways of seeing
I can confess to having a David Icke book sitting on my shelf. Some of his ideas are really way out, especially the idea that the British royal family are shapeshifing reptiles. However, he does have some positive ideas and his books can be fun to read. We could regard conspiracy theories as the soap operas of philosophy.
I think we're all the same to an extent. Those things are quite fun to think about and make for some interesting topics of conversation. Nowadays though, the tone is becoming different. I'm noticing that some people are taking things way way too seriously.
Before, we'd hear some information and take time to process it to ultimately reject, accept or put it in the background somewhere. Now, it seems that some of us come in fully loaded already and so anything but anything that adds to the load immediately becomes accepted to the whole mountain of filth that's already there.
That's something to keep in mind nowadays and unfortunately, the only way to get through the filth is to discuss it with others who have opposing views. The bad thing again, we each have our mountains of filth but the hope is that since we're working at opposite ends of each other, that we'll eventually meet somewhere in the middle - where the potential reality or truth resides.
I would say that there is some tension between the ideas of truth and what appears interesting to read, or the 'filth'. I would say, generally speaking, what catches people's attention is sensation. I would say that many people are not interested in reading or thinking about where humanity is going. I am not sure if it is because the topic is too intense or because it is just too complicated.
Perhaps they would like an easy solution and switch off when one is not being offered.
I have always been concerned with the question of where humanity is going. Perhaps that makes me a utopian dreamer. I remember speaking about the topic to a college tutor and he said that I should go off to the mountains and find some aging hippies to talk to. Obviously he was being sarcastic but I found it quite funny really. But, at the same time, the fate of humanity and the planet is a serious topic. It is a problem if people prefer discussing sensation and filth or even trivia because we are in a deep mess, and that was before the pandemic even began.
There are many people who are concerned about these questions but many are not interested. While we have spoken about reading conspiracy theory as a stimulus for thought I am not sure that many do. They prefer to see a view as concretely true or rubbish it entirely.
Sometimes I start to wonder if there is something wrong with me for grappling with issues as I do. Well meaning people have often told me to 'get a life' rather than pondering philosophically. However, now we cannot go out much anymore because it is as if the world is shutting down. In a conversation on this thread recently someone said that it seems that the chance of the pandemic as a wakeup call is passing us by. It makes me think of an album title by Metallica, 'Hard-wired to Self Destruct'. I wonder if this is the destiny of the human race?
Quoting Jack Cummins
As chaotic as it all seems today, I'm hopeful that we will start aligning ourselves towards the better.
We're a global society now. We can see/record what our neighbors are doing - both good and bad. We can learn and adapt.
Again as bad as things are, humanity is slowly but surely making improvements. Compare our lives now to how it used to be during pre-biblical times and I wouldn't be surprised that people in slums today would rather live now than in the slums ancient history. I know nobody wants an impoverished life but I believe that the global help that impoverished populations get today makes their quality of life much better. I'm just guessing of course.
I think there are reasons to believe we are transitioning to a New Age. Transitions can be hard and this is not the first time a transition has lead to mass violence. It has happened throughout history often as a result of technology changing the workforce and economy. "The Mayan Factor" mentions an economic collapse so I am not too worried about what covid is doing to all the economies. This is a wake call telling us we need to figure out another way to think about money and it goes with no longer being labor-intense economies.
Perhaps we should consider there was a time when all money had value because it was made with gold or silver, copper and nickel. The US took these metals out of their coins and now we have coins with no value. Paper was backed by gold and then silver and that is no longer true. I think we all are living on credit and how much we can borrow depends on our gross national product. That is pretty abstract and to avoid economic collapse we might have to take that further?
People have thought we were transitioning to the New Age before. They associated it with the Enlightenment which has greatly improved our lives. When we had electricity and lighted our streets and homes, some thought this was the New Age that fulfilled the Enlightenment dream. But that technology was not the technology of the New Age. Now it is thought our rapid communication is the
the technology of the New Age and this may be.
What China is doing with cell phone technology is interesting. The government can watch everyone and gives people points for "good behavior" and punishment follows "bad behavior" and many seem as delighted with this as a child at Christmas with a new toy. Such government surveillance of individuals is alarming to Americans but effectively is what China is doing, leading to a stronger and bigger beehive, and will it be emulated? We have allowed businesses to invade our personal computers and record our personal information. I hate the changes to my online experiences and lost control of how my computer functions but I live with them because what is the alternative? We have spoken of group consciousness before.
The New Age is a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny. It is a new consciousness so different from the past, people can no longer relate to the past. I think this is possible.
Whoopy :party: We have agreement. I am blown away by the US giving money to all citizens for no other reason than they are citizens and giving businesses money. I have been through a few economic crashes and this is totally different from Reagan scapegoating the poor and slashing the domestic spending to pour everything into military spending. Only during the Great Recession has the US government done so much for citizens in need. I think the way things were handled by Roosevelt was better, but maybe this new way of handling an economic problem will prove successful? The point is the government is keeping people afloat, and stimulating the economy, which is different from the past and hopefully, this works well and future economic crashes will be managed better than in the past.
Yes, I think that there are signs of hope. We obviously measure partly on the basis of what we see in our own country and we are all across the world. My own feeling is that there do seem to be some definite positive indications.
I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature.
Public education is essential and using our schools and public media to transmit a culture and necessary information such as when the economy collapses, or there is a pandemic, is essential. The culture must promote life long learning and valuing science, math, and history. Education that is focused on preparing the young to be products for industry and leaving moral training to the church is a human disaster! We need to hold an idea of the ideal we are heading towards so we know where we are going, and we need history for perspective on where we have been and where we are going.
I think we are definitely seeing the better side of humanity. I wish there were a general understand that the Christian God did not become forgiving and loving until our bellies were full. Christians were focused on a jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing god. People beat the devil out of their children.
Perhaps child-rearing practices are the most important to a culture, along with the mythology that defines the culture. The best way to have an aggressive, warrior type society is to abuse children. Protecting children and making it possible for them to grow up with love and security, leads to a gentle society, and in the past having weak people instead of fearsome fighters was a shame and a danger. During hard times no one can be soft. Seriously we need to know history to have a perspective on the present.
It is a bit insane to live in the best of times and be so angry and ready to fight, as is so in the US today and I really think that is because we neglected history. If we compare our lot in life with the wealthiest we can be miserable. If we compare our lives with the past, we are apt to be very thankful and capable of believing the future can be even better when we work together for that.
Jack, sorry about my US focus but we are expecting violence in all state capitals and especially in Washington DC on the day of the inauguration of Biden. It is hard to think of anything else besides Covid and the expected violence. I don't think things are this intense in other places. The divide we have now is like the civil war divide and Trump made this so. The violent eruption was expected and it is not over.
The frustration about your emphasis on America was more related to the site in general because there seem to be so many threads on it. Nevertheless, I do agree that there are great dramas and I did see all the riots and was rather astounded. I hardly dare imagine what will happen on the day of the inauguration. It is just as much of the turbulence of the world as the pandemic. It must be extremely difficult living in America at this time.
We are in a state of emergency in London now. Of course, severe restrictions had to come but it does feel awful being hardly allowed to do anything. I am not used to sitting indoors all the time and the various rules and restrictions have gone on for so long. I know that it is necessary but it is affecting everyone's mental health, especially the isolation we are meant to endure. But perhaps we will all become stronger through it eventually.
There's evidence of early hominids caring for their elderly, their young and the sick. We also see similar behaviors in animals that live in groups. So maybe that is the natural state and selfishness to the detriment of others is unnatural because it leads to self-isolation.
Well, I was wrong.
Leading scientists and some big players in global economics too have been giving the issue serious thought. A list of possible global threats has been created probably with the intent to increase global awareness of possible dangers to civilization as we know it. Here they are:
1. Nuclear holocaust
2. Climate change
3. Asteroid impact
4. Overpopulation
5. AI takeover
6. Pandemics
[The above list maybe incomplete]
There's even a Doomsday clock which has been set at 100 seconds to midnight, midnight being doomsday.
Yes, I have been coming from the view that the whole doomsday predictions are coming from the scientists and disciplines and is not just the territory of the religious. I would say it was the views of these other points of view which probably make me think outside of my own religious background initially.
I was aware of a danger of the way in which the religious expectation of the end times may have a self fulfilling prophecy and I do believe that this fuelled the development of the nuclear arms
But what about all the other ideologies?
The end of the millennium passed and even the mythic 2012 of the Mayan calendar, but many thinkers, including the scientists were thinking that we are not out of danger and one of the biggest fears is climate change.
While I am sure that the scientists fears are evidence based, I do still wonder about the role of self fulfilling prophecy, perhaps in the mass psyche of humanity. I also wonder about the whole participant observer role recognised within science. Our bias affects what we see, and how we respond. How does this manifest in reality?
It is this concern which makes me choose to focus upon the more utopian dreams, because our perceived reality may have implications for what becomes manifest in the world.
I am sure that early hominids did care for the sick and the elderly. Perhaps the problems we are in here is that we have become reliant on institutions. It is complicated because while we may have become dependent on these institutions we do need them because they are enabling us to live longer.
We need the hospitals to provide good quality care. But then we are in a situation that people may end up living so long that even the offspring are middle aged or elderly themselves. So, this means that more people are in residential care.
I am sure that life in some countries, and possibly life where you are in the Phillipines, is very different. In some ways you are probably living a more community based existence which is has benefits. But it has costs too. In particular, you mentioned that it was likely that when vaccines come your country will get a poor quality one.
So the question is how far should development go? Third World countries have been modelling the development of Western countries. But the Western countries are far from perfect. The question is to what extent should people be reliant on large institutions or more community based?
3rd world countries like ours definitely want to be like you guys in the top echelon but I really don't think the resource management and distribution will ever match the population growth. As it is, our resources can only handle a population of 70 million and we're already past 110 million today. I think other bottom dwelling countries are in the same boat.
So, I think most Filipinos have no choice but to rely on the community for assistance and support.
As a country however, you can see in our politics how our government is trying to allign itself with China - who has really deep pockets. And they are lifting the ban on foreign owned companies. So maybe we will start to see a rise of big institutions coming in.
Maybe we'll see more industrialization in a generation or so. Maybe we'll see pockets of growth here and there but who knows? To be honest, I don't want them to come in too strong because they have a sort of scorched earth policy and I don't want my countryside to be uninhabitable, or our waters and air turned toxic.
I think that fear is part of it. I am also aware of another tradition which is the whole law of attraction. I am not sure that it is accepted in scientific circles but I find that it makes sense. It is a different slant to the law of karma, although both probably stem from esoteric sources.
The law of karma looks backwards and is in its essence about cause and effect. It probably involves people's own sense of conscience. The law of attraction in the view of Esther and Jeremy Hicks and a number of other writers involves how we bring about manifest reality based on intentions. However, it is not just about conscious goals but also about subconscious aspects, such as fear. In a way, it may appear as if karma and the law of attraction are opposed but I think that they are interconnected somehow.
Causality is a complex topic and I am not saying that the idea of karma or the law of attraction have captured the whole picture. But causality remains a puzzle even within science and I think many quantum physicist speak of indeterminancy However, I do think that when we think about changes in the world, social and political action most obviously play a major role. But I do think it involves the whole question of manifestation. So, how do you view causation?
It is interesting to hear your perspective because I don't think any of the Filipinos I have known have ever talked about the social conditions or politics of their country.
I have conversed with many people from Africa, although many were from towns, not villages. Often, the Africans I have known were in favour of following a lifestyle based on the English one, although, of course, they were ones who had chosen to come here. However, I think that some of them did hope to return to Africa at some point in the future.
It is useful to hear the views of people who come from or are living in Third World countries, as an alternative perspective to that of English or American culture.
Most likely our line of humans out-competed the Neanderthal because of our greater ability to organize group behaviors than enhance survival. Human success really depends on organizational skills and motivating people to act in unison for one goal. Trump is a master at this, but he made the terrible mistake of pitting us against each other to develop his core of supporters. He almost won the election, but fortunately, Biden won the election. Unfortunately, Biden has to deal with the damage done by Trump. Can he unite us and prevent violence? Can he get us to work together to against the virus? I am afraid because of Trump's leadership, Biden's efforts to unite us in fight against Covid will lead to more violence. And if the no masks, no restrictions side had won, our population would have been reduced even more.
Bottom line- human success depends on human unity.
I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.
Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction.
In this pandemic, we must realize we are in this together. Separated by distance does mean we are not in this together. The whole world is having the same experience, although in different ways.
Trump was the worst possible leader the US could have had at this time, assuring the worst possible outcome of the pandemic because he pitted us against the media and against each other, assuring the spread of the virus because of the large number of people who refuse to follow any of the guidelines.
I do think there are positive effects of the pandemic because of more compassion and a strong motivation to do better. However, I am afraid of the impact Trump has had on us. On the other hand, what he has done to us is so bad we must seek a solution, so even that bad can lead to a better tomorrow.
The more everyone realizes we are in this together the better the whole world will be. It is far better to identify a pandemic where it originates and throw everything we can at stopping it. That can mean being sure people on the other side of the world have clean water and are will feed and have medical care because their problem can become our problem. Do you get the very real meaning that we are all in this together? To a virus, we are all the same and it does not respect boundaries.
Causation, as far as I can tell, is, all things considered, simply a pattern in events. I pot a plant, keep it where it gets good sunlight, water it, and it grows. I do the same thing to another plant and another, all of them grow. When that happens a light bulb goes off in my head and I say to myself, "hey, this could be useful" and I give it a name: causation.
I would say that the positive side of the pandemic is that it makes us aware that we are all vulnerable. It can be transmitted as easily to the poor as the rich. It does seem that some ethnic groups, particularly Asians and Africans are worst affected. However, the whole pandemic has affected everyone on some level, and in that sense can be a wakeup call which can hopefully be a united one.
I would say that there is definitely a clear relationship between action and results. However, what I wonder about is the role of intentionality and consciousness in determining events. I am not convinced that causation only occurs on the physical level. I do believe that it is much more complex. Here, I wonder about Jung's notion of synchronicity. He is speaking of meaningful coincidences. Of course, it is we the subjects who perceive the meaningful coincidences.
The question is do the perceived coincidences exist only in our minds? Could it be that more like the way described by the physicist David Bohm suggested in his idea of the implicate and explicate order? If change occurs in the implicate order we could be seen as seeing patterns played out in the explicate order, of manifestation in life. But, on the other hand, our consciousness might also have a basis in the implicate order, and therefore have an active, determining influence too.
I would say that synchronicity is more than paradoelia. I do believe that it is one aspect of causality at an invisible level. I do believe that what happens in the individual and collective aspects of life cannot just be explained in terms of physical causes. I am not wishing to undermine the role of actions at all but I do believe that thought has power too, especially on the level of the mass psyche of humanity.
Jung's synchronicity concept is simply that there's meaning, albeit private to the individual experiencing it, in coincidences. He was very adamant or so I believe that people shouldn't look at it from a causal perspective and hence acausal parallelism.
Perhaps Jung did say that synchronicity was about patterns and not causes but I still think that the whole idea did have implications about causality. I am planning to look at the thread on causality to widen my own very limited understanding of this complex matter, but I am trying to reply to a couple of comments on other threads firstly
I guess that the issue of causality relevant to this thread is about the way in which events in life and the world become manifest. I am also interested in the whole idea of self-fulfilling prophecy, so I will get back to you if I come up with any further insights on my travels on the various threads.
Are you aware of four dimensionalism. According to it, each observer has faer own plane of simultaneity i.e. what appears to be simulnateous events to me may not be so to you or another observer. Synchronicity depends on simultaneity and if we can't agree on the latter, the former has no leg to stand on.
I googled the idea of four dimensionalism. The problem is that there are so many theories and we all dip in and out of them as we choose.
But what I would say is that I definitely believe that there are more that there are 4, 5 or more dimensions. I would say that the fourth dimension involves time. I have had discussions on various threads about other dimensions. So, you say that the four dimensionalism you are familiar with would reject synchronicity as an idea.
I would be inclined to think that synchronicity as Jung understood it was based more on a 3 dimensional perspective because he was writing a long time ago, so did not have the knowledge that we have access to, especially the ideas of quantum physics. In particular, if you read his autobiography he tends to understand premonitions in this way. When I first read his writings, I found his idea of synchronicity helpful but if I really think about I probably think that premonitions involve accessing ideas in another dimension, although I have not formulated it in this way until writing it this way. However, it is probably about seeing patterns in nature.
Today, I was reading Fritjof Capra's systems view and he speaks about self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of self-balancing feedback as recognised within cybernetic. He speaks of the nature of this in terms of a 'circular nature of such self-reinforcing, "runaway" feedback loops.
Capra's ideas are useful for considering disasters, especially at the level of deep ecology. He sees the interconnected relationships between living systems. He also draws upon the ideas of many thinkers, including chaos theory and James Lovelock's idea of planet earth as a living being, Gaia. One important conclusion which he comes to is that,
'Reconnecting with the web of life means building and nurturing sustainable communities in which we can satisfy our needs and aspirations without diminishing the chances of future generations.'
I have been reading in the news about the way in which some countries are facing being given poorer quality vaccines, or none at all. So, let's hope that it is addressed. It might be the point on which the world has to, or can, unite together.
Ain't that the truth. That's why I'm all for removing superficial and archaic barriers.
This virus is an opportunity for us to experience how alike we all are and how connected we truly are as we all deal with this mindless thing that's affecting us all regardless of race, denomination, status, age, gender.
But of course, we're seeing groups trying to again highlight differences during this time. Which is unfortunate.
Yeah it's a mess here but thankfully since the news is so open, we're seeing studies showing these vaccines' efficacy. In Brazil, this particular vaccine our govt is getting, got a whopping 51% efficacy.
Hopefully, congress/senate/cabinet would get their heads out of our president's a&& and suggest the right thing.
A philosophy of disasters would be an ethics. You'll need some assumptions about responsibility toward both existing humans and future generations. (It isn't trivial to deduce that we have any responsibility toward the propagation of the species.)
There's also two different kinds of disaster to consider. The first is something like the current pandemic which has the capacity to kill a lot of people but can be handled in a reactive way: these are non-existential threats. The best way to ensure one can react is to invest in science and to ensure that people value facts. The biggest failure to cope with the Covid pandemic has been a disregard for truth, especially at the top. The scientific response has been extremely good: multiple vaccines in a short period of time, with solid (albeit often disregarded) advice on how to stay safe and minimise the impact of the virus in the meantime.
Then there are existential threats, such as that predicted by climate scientists, which require a proactive approach. I'm more pessimistic about these. As I said, it isn't trivial to show that we owe future generations anything at all, and that kind of short-termism is likely to push us toward a catastrophe. Ideally it would be the role of government to make the case to follow the scientific advice, but as per the reactive example above, that can't be relied upon. People are more likely to vote for the party that promises to do nothing than the one that promises specific pre-emptive action.
Ideally, disaster preparation would be removed as this kind of political football. If we agree we cannot do nothing, and we agree we cannot rely on people to vote to do something, a long-term, perhaps meritocratically-elected governmental branch free from political interference might do the job. However that which one giveth one could taketh away, so I suspect the people would promptly vote to dismantle such a branch.
I think that you are right to point to the way in which you point to the way in which the philosophy of disasters involves ethics.
The only thing which I would query is 'an ethics' because that sounds a bit too fixed, as if it may be prescriptive rather than dialogue about ethical issues.
I think that it is far too early to say that the scientific response to the pandemic has been good. We don't know to what extent the vaccine is going to solve the problem, especially in the light of mutant strains. We could be looking at a situation in which the virus is around for a very long time to come, possibly years or decades. I am also not sure that all the advice being given is correct.
Here, I will give an example I found out about today. I discovered that someone I know who has not been out or mixed with anyone for a long time has tested positive for the virus. She reckons that she must have caught it from food left outside her doors. So, this does raise questions about whether the transmission is really human to human, or far more complicated. I realise that this I have given only one example but it does raise questions about the whole emphasis being on social distancing, as if it solves the whole problem.
The key thing which I see about the whole current pandemic is that we are still dealing with the unknown. As it is, for many people the whole life that they have known has stopped and people are still dying in multitudes. I would say that we are far from being able to think about any success of science.
Certainly, let us hope that the disaster has woken us up to the whole threat of disasters. But, of course it is not the first. There have been earthquakes, terrorist attacks, the Grenfell tower fire in London, and many more. Unfortunately, it seems that thinking often occurs in the aftermath.
I think a safe space to discuss solutions and implications is a great idea, but a poor endgame.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Four vaccines in under a year is pretty good. Even if you choose not to believe in scientific testing, having four candidates for hope is a pretty swell response if you ask me.
Quoting Jack Cummins
It's been well understood that the virus can pass via surfaces of objects for a long time, which is why everyone has to disinfect everything all the time.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, Grenfell is a good example where a proactive approach had already been taken in terms of laws, but our current attitude to corporations is that legality is an opt-in/pay-out deal. Similar situation in America with Du Pont. Knowingly killing tens of thousands of people is technically illegal, but they're a big business so, as long as they pay out, they can carry on.
This has a direct impact on the climate crisis, since many of the largest businesses are in the business of causing it. Historically, financial disincentives don't seem to be an obstacle when there's a greater financial incentive to accelerate toward disaster. A better commercial ethic needs to be part of the conversation.
I am certainly not wishing to undermine the success of finding four vaccines, and I am certainly hoping for the best. We still have to hope that the world inequalities are addressed to see that certain countries are not missing out. It may be that this pandemic is a way of transcending inequality on a wide scale.
Yes, the transmission of the virus is known to occur on surfaces. This is complex because we can't see it and how much can one keep disinfecting and know how much is enough. I have known people with obsessive compulsive disorder and they end up wasting for hours on end. Perhaps it is about getting the right balance. I tend to be just as careful as I can possibly be but not to a ridiculous extent, and as far as I know I have not had the virus and I was having to travel on busses to work daily in the first couple of months of the virus. I am a big fan of wipes because they aren't too sticky.
I do think that this is all interrelated to economics and climate change. It certainly gives a chance to address the problems of the largest businesses and the effects they are having on the ecosystem. So, while I remain sceptical about many of the underlying problems, it could be that we are on the brink of some revolutionary change and transformation.
Me too, although I now get taxis and I've become an alcoholic as long as it's in hand gel form ;)
In some hospitals, alcohol gel gets removed because people do literally drink it if they are desperate with alcohol cravings.
I have seen in a number of news items that the abuse of alcohol has escalated beyond all proportion in the time of the pandemic, so that is going to be another problem which will have to be addressed in the aftermath too.
I so enjoyed watching the Public BroadcastingChannel Yesterday. There was a celebration of music in the evening and it was uplifting. All but one President stood together, democratic and republican declaring unity. That was such a happy sight. The leadership is now of unity and hope.
Leaders are as strong as their followers make them and the music of the time and media are very important to this. Many songs have been written during these hard times like the songs written during the Great Depression. Here a favorite one titled "Happy Days are Here Again". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg
The US is dealing with a history of racism and we have a history of White people who tried to right that wrong, so 8Livesleft, I hope the talk of the problem is shifted with the change in leadership and songs that lift our spirits and we talk about our history of White people who did not try to correct the wrong and how this is the time to overcome the problem of racism and the paranoia created by 9/11. I do not the one-sided talk of racism we have this past year.
The children in my family are having a real hard time. The youngest one has been separated from her mother and is not happy. The family has risked visits after my granddaughter tests negative, but we still know there is a risk not just to the family but to everyone where the youngest one lives. I can not think of a crueler life experience than this one. It is not as traumatic as war, but in war, the moment of fighting passes. This pandemic is going on and on exhausting our morale.
I would agree that the pandemic is exhausting our morale. I think that you are right in saying that in war the moment of fighting passes, and in this situation it goes on and on.I try not to dwell on it all the time. I do need to find work but I cannot properly do so and I am trying to make the best use of my time and energy.
In some ways, I am grateful for being able to have some time to myself. If it had not been for lockdown and restrictions I would not have been able to engage on this site in the way that I have been doing. I sometimes imagine if I was in the job I was in last year, how I might have spent my break at work on the site. But I would say that in many ways I feel much more well due to being not at work because I had so much stress at work and difficult shift patterns. Also, on my days off I used to go out so much and stay out late in Central London, so I was often lacking in rest. So, what I am saying is that changes brought by the pandemic cannot possibly last permanently but it is best to make the most creative use of them. In some ways, I feel that the time is comparable to the school holidays which at the time seemed so long.
I did see your earlier post, and your entry about the celebration yesterday. I didn't see it because I don't have a television. In many ways, I am glad that I don't have a television because I find that if I watch too much news I get depressed. Usually, I just check the news about once or twice a day on my phone, just so that I am up to date. Anything more becomes too much. I prefer to entertain myself by reading and listening to music than television, although most of my friends watch loads of it because they really enjoy it
Anyway, let us hope that we see some positive news in the US, England and the rest of the world.
We don't want too many more disasters at the moment, because we have more than enough to think about. If there is too much to deal with it can be completely overwhelming.
Of course individuals reacted to all the dying differently. Just about everyone assumed this was the end of the world. Some hunkered down to protect themselves and they became very frugal, leading to some accumulating money that was nice to have as estates were left vacant. Others took the attitude, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we all die.
I bought a special edition Scientific American magazine that is about research into things like conspiracy theory and social media. When people are traumatized as all the deaths are effecting many people, and uncertainty is increased, such as loosing a job and not knowing what will happen next, people are more prone to believing conspiracy theories. It gives them something to pin all their anxiety on, and perhaps a sense that the threat can be overcome. In short, getting crazy is a coping skill.
I am really worried that my 13 year old great grandson has taken a turn for the worst and in his isolation is looping negative thoughts about no one liking him and he can't do anything right, and even suicide. His mother works and he is left alone way too much with nothing positive to focus on. We used to be good buddies and have wonderful adventures in nature and with informative DVD's and science experiments. But he hit that age when he doesn't want to be with Grandma anymore. Great, but school is closed and he can't run around with friends. Mom is not getting it. She thinks her son is hearing voices and going crazy because something is wrong with his brain, and she gets furious with me when I point out the problem is isolation and nothing to do that moves his mind in a positive direction as you are doing, Jack. I wish he would read the classics and learn how heroes in literature deal with adversity but he is unwilling to do that. I am sure depression has eaten up his motivation.
I think it is a mistake to leave the young to figure things for themselves without guidance and encouragement in these times. They can't even learn from each other because they are isolated. Any suggestions?
I am sorry to hear that your grandson is struggling. I think that your story is one which highlights the way in which what is going on in the world impacts on individuals. The media shows life from a very general point of view and the suffering going on behind the scenes may get missed. I think that in England, there is recognition that children are being affected by the pandemic, as well as adults, in terms of mental health.
That is what makes all of this disaster so complicated. Obviously, it is important to protect the physically vulnerable. However, I do believe in the aftermath of all this, a whole vast explosion of other underlying problems are going to arise. I think many people are aware of this, but this is not being addressed fully at the moment.
Afterwards, I noticed that you asked about any suggestions. I am afraid I don't have any practical suggestions about the situation you describe because I don't really know many children at present. But I would say that if your grandson is hearing voices it may be helpful if a GP knows. Obviously, that may mean going down the pathway of adolescence psychiatry services, which you may see as not the best option, but I would think that, on the other hand, there is a danger in just ignoring what is happening. Perhaps, some kind of counselling might be offered.
Our schools are doing online schooling but I think we are about to learn the importance of social contact. The magazine I bought explains shared memory. It is amazing but our thinking has more to do with our group than we have realized. We don't pay as much attention to something that is not a shared social experience.
For example, if someone is talking about the experience of a group that I am not a part of, I really don't care. Please, don't talk to me about the problems football players are having, because I am not a sports fan and really do not care. I know I do not care as much about what is happening to people on the other side of the world as I care about what is happening in my own neighborhood. Those are big and obvious, but how about learning math? If the people you associate with smoke you are likely to smoke; if they learn math you are likely to pay attention to math. Isolated children don't have the group stimulus to learn. They are not carried along because that is what everyone is doing, and if their parents are not engaging and involved with the child's learning because this is really something the parent enjoys, if the parent really hates school work and tells the child to do the school work but does not become part of the learning, the poor child is going to hate the chore, instead of wanting to keep up with what everyone else is doing.
I am reading of social media and memes and I am excited to think some creative person might intentionally create positive memes and flood social media with them. I think this might be like having a parade of skeletons and baked goods of death symbols and music and dance, bringing people together. That is what a meme does. It gives people a sense of social connection.
We need to invent celebrations and memes that work with our human nature. We must stop ignoring our humanness as we have been doing in the US. Reading the classics gave us unity. They prepared us to be adults and to cope with life. I am now understanding this in a whole new way and why that is so important. And Jack, if it were not for your thread and replies I would NOT have done this thinking and I would not have realized what one piece of information has to do with another. I would not have this joy of realizing something in a new way. On my gosh, humans really need each other. :grin:
The poor adolescents who are struggling to understand life and are isolated and without the groups support we all need. I get it.
:worry: I can not have the effect I want to have on my granddaughter and her son, because I am old and not one of them. I studied gerontology years ago and just now I have realized the answer to one of the most important questions about if old people withdraw or are they push out? They are dropped out like the old shirt that was once a favorite shirt but is no longer in style. As much as that shirt was loved, it is not what is wanted today.
I am glad that my thread is helpful. I am grateful for you and all the other people who engage with me. I must say that I have found using this site as one of the best ways of coping with lockdown. I never that that I would spend so much time doing things online.
I am glad that your grandson is going to have counselling. So many are struggling mentally. One thing I found helpful is some techniques of mindfulness meditation, especially ones which are focused on watching thoughts, which is a way of shifting away from following negative ones too much.
But, ultimately, I don't believe that we are designed to isolate in the way we are having to.
I have also found that thinking about the topic about disasters and the state of the planet to be useful. Sometimes, I get demoralised about the possibility of change, so it is useful to engage with others about the topic as it aids thinking positively.