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Bad arguments

jorndoe November 25, 2020 at 23:35 2650 views 12 comments
Maybe we could nominate the worst arguments monthly or yearly (or something)?
Perhaps with no names attached, it's not for shaming, more like what not to do?

Something similar could be done for good/best, though I'm guessing that'd be more extensive back-and-forth.

I'll start with a nominee:

When someone lets you in on something, you're getting it as you are.
You can therefore never understand them.

Comments (12)

Enrique November 26, 2020 at 00:20 #474588
Reply to jorndoe

My nominee:

"The reason is that..."

Its a bit presumptuous to assume reason is the foundation of existence, don't you think?
TheMadFool November 26, 2020 at 06:21 #474633
For me, there are two kinds of bad arguments:

1. The soldier: Overtly apparent. Means business. Carries a loaded weapon clearly visible and pointed at you. The fallacy is not that difficult to detect, identify and escape without a scratch is possible.

2. The assassin: Covert. Stealthy. Deceptive. Disguised. Has a concealed, loaded weapon complete with a silencer. You won't even realize you're dead ( :chin: ). Fallacy very hard to detect, identify, and unlikely that you'll emerge unscathed - bruises, cuts to be expected.
Jack Cummins November 26, 2020 at 10:16 #474671
Reply to jorndoe
I think that some times people overuse links in arguments. I am not saying that they are not valid and worthwhile.

However, if they are just included as evidence against a line of thought they can be a means of shutting down thinking rather than aiding it. I am referring to an attitude in which someone says this has been discussed by someone and here is the evidence, end of story.

When I see an answer to a question with a mere link, unsubstantiated by any discussion of the material it contains I feel disappointed. Of course, it is possible to challenge the material contained in it but sometimes I have felt that the person supplying the link has not wished for that, just wishing to rest on the foundation of published 'evidence'.
ssu November 26, 2020 at 11:10 #474678
Reply to jorndoe Worst arguments are those when there are no arguments, when it's just strawman after strawman with some covert or overt ad hominems added there. Or that just to raise a topic instantly means that you are categorized to have be parroting some obnoxious view we find in public discourse, which offends people so much that they are not willing to even look what you say.

The worst arguments are those replies were the person doesn't even bother to read the whole argument he or she is commenting and openly admit this.
jorndoe November 26, 2020 at 13:45 #474697
Hey all, I kind of had examples in mind, maybe like "look what was in the Daily Planet", or "check this out", preferably somewhat short and identifiable, so as to show what not to do.
Deleted User November 26, 2020 at 14:32 #474704
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
SophistiCat November 26, 2020 at 16:20 #474716
Quoting jorndoe
I'll start with a nominee:

When someone lets you in on something, you're getting it as you are.
You can therefore never understand them.


Heh, are you trying to repeat Stove's competition? (Stop me if I am spoiling it!)
jorndoe November 26, 2020 at 16:33 #474719
Quoting SophistiCat
Heh, are you trying to repeat Stove's competition? (Stop me if I am spoiling it!)


Admittedly that was one motivation. :)
I thought periodic nominees and winners could be nifty, and the forums a good place for it.
(Perhaps even kind of relevant with the fake dis- mis-information out there.)

fdrake November 26, 2020 at 16:52 #474724
In the spirit of Stove's Gem, here is one that occurs on forum a lot in various guises:

You used the word X, the meaning of the word X is a type, therefore the types exist in the manner I believe, Y. It's a particularly common form of gotcha argument, in which someone committed to the existence of X and its status as a Y uses that their opponent has to use the word X when disagreeing about the connection of X and Y.

This is obviously a bad argument, as in cases like this the use of the word X and its connection to the type existing in manner Y is what's at stake in the argument, and just because something can be referred to does not mean it exists in any sense relevant to the discussion (snarks, the shimblybib, Santa Claus, gods).

Example:

You used the word "red", the meaning of the word red is (red sensations, classes of red objects...), therefore there are really red sensations existing (in the mind, as platonic abstractions instantiated in tokens...)

It will also show up in disagreements regarding the nature of abstract objects, and any time someone can take a noun referring to a class and mistake it for a substantive.
frank November 26, 2020 at 16:57 #474726
Quoting fdrake
therefore there are really red sensations existing (in the mind, as platonic abstractions instantiated in tokens...)


Holy abstraction, Batman! Who ever presented this argument anywhere?
fdrake November 26, 2020 at 17:02 #474728
Reply to frank

I don't wanna name names.
frank November 26, 2020 at 17:08 #474731
Reply to fdrake
Oh. Ok.