Problem with Christianity
We are told a God judges us, but is it fitting for us to act like gods judging each other?
Let us say a moral is a matter of cause and effect, then we should judge the cause and effect (action taken by a person) but, not the person. It is arrogant to believe we know enough to judge another, but Christianity totally sets us up to judge people as though we were mini gods given this gift of judgment. Essential to getting what I am saying is there is a big difference between judging cause and effect and judging a person.
For example, we can know if someone used a gun to kill someone, but how well do we know the person and that person's experience leading up to what happened that led to the killing? How much do we know about life that gives us the ability to judge others, even complete strangers from totally different backgrounds? Please consider do we have the knowledge and wisdom to judge each other?
Let us say a moral is a matter of cause and effect, then we should judge the cause and effect (action taken by a person) but, not the person. It is arrogant to believe we know enough to judge another, but Christianity totally sets us up to judge people as though we were mini gods given this gift of judgment. Essential to getting what I am saying is there is a big difference between judging cause and effect and judging a person.
For example, we can know if someone used a gun to kill someone, but how well do we know the person and that person's experience leading up to what happened that led to the killing? How much do we know about life that gives us the ability to judge others, even complete strangers from totally different backgrounds? Please consider do we have the knowledge and wisdom to judge each other?
Comments (76)
However, Christians are not commanded to judge ("judge not lest ye be judged")... we are instructed to help and check each other, to help one another abide by the rules, but God alone can judge a man's Heart (and mind and will). At most, we are told that there will be a point when Christians "will judge angels and men" but this will presumably be when we attain capacities that we do not - as of yet - understand.
Indeed you described very well Christian doctrines, known as Christianity.
But, actually, Jesus message is about 'knowledge of Life Reality', not about judgement or magical salvation; by pleasing God :)
After all, most people used hearing of the Christian doctrines and didn't have time to see what Jesus, in person (not via anyone else), says on the Gospel.
"Christianity totally sets us up to judge people as though we were mini gods given this gift of judgment"
On the contrary Christianity is judged but clearly states that we should not judge others. Judge not others lest ye be judged yourself, look at the log in your own eye before inspecting the dust in someone else's eye are two examples of commands not to judge.
We all have to understand the existential problems of judging. Your discussion title is a judgement and continues to judge throughout your argument.
Perhaps your title should be that we all judge and usually we are unaware of it.
That's what's attempted to be found out in an open and public court of law with evidence, details about the persons life, character testimony, witnesses, and allegedly a judge who is mature and very well versed in life and its many ups and downs who knows the law and rights extensively.
I guess the question would be, if someone kills someone close to you in cold blood for no reason, would you be OK with them walking away unpunished, perhaps to do it again and victimize more innocent persons or families? People will still take justice into their own hands. Do you see any reason for justice to be administered on the street by a mob who can't think for themselves and act on emotion and whatever public opinion happens to be most prevalent or would you rather it be in a professional court setting with a man who's job is to be impartial and everything and anything is recorded and able to be verified and or discussed?
Anyway, the big mistake that consists of mortal sin and recognized as heresy is the intention of wanting to determine good and evil, which is everything that modern culture encourages "Oh, there is no right and wrong, do what you like, etc", and that was the cause of the fall of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. Recently, Netflix did not release a movie for pedophiles and there was no major serious uprising from the media, or from anyone for that matter? We live in a mad world, and in the next decade it will only tend to get worse, unfortunately.
Yes, I know the Bible says we should not judge each other and I find it hard not to judge others. However, as I get older I am less judgmental. I think it is natural for us to judge others and this is why I bring the subject up. What I am saying goes with this year's politics and all the religious attacks and reasoning on voting for things like socialism or being opposed to it. Are "those people" deserving. Is stopping at charity and prayers enough, or do we need political action? How are we judging reality and "those people" and what we should do about reality and "those people"? I seem to be hypersensitive to what judging others has to do with our politicalchoices.
I like your explanation of why we shouldn't judge and the possibility that that will change. Right now for those who favor evolution I want to say judgment and prejudice is a biological thing. Or we could make things really messy and speak of Daniel Kahneman's explanation of fast and slow thinking. But in defining judgment as the OP tries to present it, there is a personal judgment that can be full of prejudices and unconscious decisions, or there can be a scientific judgment that is hopefully fact based and without prejudiuce or unconscious, unquestioned judgments. Such as needing to protect our families and neighborhood from those pagans and atheists or protect everyone from those people who are differrent from us. Should we build a wall and keep them out, or rescue them from bad places and give them opportunity to be one of us?
Out of time. Hope to get to others soon.
Well I mean... that's not as you wish it to be perceived I'm afraid. Musical artists are one out of not only thousands but millions even. Some succeed, and that success is based on something.
Christianity is actually about what you call "magical salvation" . In the court of justice you can't substitute one person's act for another. In the court of mercy, maybe. But Christianity is just about assuming saying the name Jesus, going to confession or baptism, magically bestows mercy. It's all meaningless
The only historical evidence of Jesus having super power comes from his disciples and Josephus, who also was a Christian. Every religion claims miracles. That's almost what a religion is.
Right. And all things being equal. Well, yeah. Must be doing something right, eh?
As I said, it's fantasy
I was raised in a mid-class Catholic family. When I was about 15 (I am 71), I started realizing that what are called Church’s teachings didn't suit my nature, intellectually and spiritually. In other words, based on my humble logic which I had at that time, I couldn't relate them to my reality; to whatever I have discovered, though a few at that time, in my being and the real world.
Since these teachings were supposed, as claimed, reflecting Jesus teachings, I decided to prove, once for all and to myself in the least, that Jesus (real or myth) has also no importance in my life.
At age 17, I started reading attentively whatever Jesus, in person, says on the Gospel which I had (an Arabic Catholic one, printed in 1964). To my big surprise, I found out, even in my rather preliminary studies, crucial contradictions between his sayings and the Church’s teachings (Catholic or else). In brief, this personal study ended up, after many decades and to me in the least, what I may call ‘science of life reality’.
I think I have to also point out that in my high studies in electronics and data communications I became aware that a received data via a noisy/long channel need to be filtered with ‘appropriate’ algorithms in order to let be as close as possible to the transmitted data; to get an acceptable video image or audio voice/music for example.
I said this because a believer in any religion is supposed to preserve every word, if not every letter, on a book if it is approved (by the men in charge of his religion) as being holy; inspired by God.
So I wondered about what could be the reasons for which many people, who are as intelligent as I am (if not more), join a religion (actually a sect of a religion) as believers (worshipers). Some of these reasons could be:
{1} the human instincts (as of the less evolved beings) guide a person to join a certain well-organized group (if not more than one) to have a better chance to survive (he/she and likely his/her family too). This group could be civil/social, religious or political.
{2} the human instincts (unlike of the less evolved beings) let the human in question avoid, as possible, submitting to another human. This fact was known since humanity was primitive. Therefore, those who have to be in charge of a group (of the people in a region) created the notion of RULING gods/goddesses, so that they can rule and control their masses, without having serious complains; by doing this in the name of certain gods, not in their own names (see Pharaoh, for example). While humans evolve, the notion of ruling gods became ‘one ruling god’. Then, a clever ruler (I am not sure who the first one was) replaced the notion of ‘The One Ruling God; with ‘The Ruling People’. In all cases, the followers in any group are happy that they are not submitting to the rules and will of a human being as they are :)
(I wish to be notified if someone had the chance to meet 'The Ruling People' :) )
{3} there is a fact which is not supposed to be revealed or discussed openly. It is about the extra pleasant sensation one may feel while he is submitting, by his own will, to anther human. For example, if this happens in a sexual relation and even if the other side didn’t start doing anything serious, the submitted person starts feeling this extra pleasure in his imagination already. This may not be true to all humans, as some people told me :) Anyway, this extra pleasant sensation could be felt regardless of the other side’s nature, real or supernatural. This explains why in any religion (Jewish, Christian, Islam and Pagan) the believers feel great during their worship rituals, in private or in a group.
There are more reasons but, I guess, the three above are enough for the time being :)
How fortunate you are to be able to read the Bible in Arabic. I have found one language does not easily translate to another. Also, the Romans could not accept the Greek understanding of the trinity until they invented a new word to hold an understanding that could be expressed in Rome. I hold the idea, that people who know of Buddhism have a totally different understanding of Jesus than in the more materialistic West.
Understanding the Bible is as much about our culture as the words used. It will not be the same book to all who read it.
Much depends on our understanding of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. How do we come to know logos? Reading a holy book or reading several holy books, or studying nature? Going to war because we believe that is God's will, is so different from not going to war because of having cause and effect logic and realizing many years after the war people will still be struggling with the effects of war. Thinking the wars are either won or lost and that is the end of that, is a huge mistake. It appears Catholics are less prone to believe God wants them to invade another country than Protestants and yet both are Christians. Christians with different consciousnesses.
I think it is easier to have agrement with scientific thinking than religious thinking? Religious people disagree and yet each is sure their different understanding are God's truth is the right one. That fact of life is what made me turn away from Christianity when was a 8 years old and a Sunday school teacher could not give a good explanation of why there a Protestants and Catholics and not agreement on God's truth. Later I found out there are many more religions, all believing they have truth and willing to kill eachother over who has the better truth. That is not moral.
Also, the oppression and persecution of nonbelievers, Jews and, even more so, of unorthodox Christians.
I totally agree, and we are not going to achieve that goal arguing about what a holy book says because all of them are mythology and not scientific thinking. The difference is an important matter of logic. This is about fast and slow thinking. About believing it is God's truth without question, or questioning everything and not being so sure of what we think we know. A moral as a matter of cause and effect is not religious thinking but along the line of scientific logic. That is how to know truth.
Flavius Josephus a Christian? I don't think so. Some Christian inserted a statement that Jesus was God in one of his works, rather awkwardly, but he remained a Jew though a kind of favorite and pet of the Flavian emperors.
There were several wonder-workers wandering about the Roman Empire, though, so the fact that miracles were ascribed to Jesus isn't all that remarkable; it may even have been expected. Simon Magus, for example, and Apollonius of Tyana.
That said, on the topic generally, we make judgments all the time about people, events, things. It's part of what we do. The trick is to do so intelligently. Christianity holds that judgment is required, however, as a matter of doctrine; judgment of humanity in general, and of people, according to doctrine.
"Day After Tomorrow" a huge freeze forces the people in North America to migrate South.
No, we can not join them for political reasons. This notion comes from a very old book praising the US democracy and our acceptance of immigrants from around the world, fleeing despots and nations that deny the people freedom and opportunity. We now seem to think of all Western civilization as democracies and therefore fit for our occupation, but we may not do so well in the East. When the book I read was written that was not true. I think it is tragic we do not have a better understanding of history, and the consciousness of the justice and liberty we had. Building a wall to keep "them" out is solid evidence we have lost our earlier sense of purpose, our sense of meaning, and our mission.
The 1958 Nation Defence Education ended the transmission of culture and education for good moral judgment and left moral training up to the church. Now we live with believing we are God's chosen people and we are especially blessed by God. A totally false and dangerous belief. Instead of having the correct understanding of our history, we are living with the myth that democracy came from the Bible. :gasp: We stand to loose the democracy we inherited and that is why I started this thread. If the majority of voters are aligned with religion and not science, we are in serious trouble. Moral- keep your mask and do not attend church services where everyone is violating knowledge from science.
:ok:
Thank you very much! The churches I have visited talk a lot about the dangers of those heathens and pagans and the need to protect the neighborhood for "Christians". I see this daily in prejudice against "those people" and the fear in our politics. No President has made this more evident than Trump so we can no longer ignore the Christian problem as innocent freedom of religion. Especially not in Texas where teachers had to go to the Supreme Court to stop teaching creationism as equal to science. The 1912 Texas Republican agenda was to prevent education for the higher order thinking skills. The Christian influence on our schools is strong and we are in trouble because this education goes with following Trump and not wearing mask or respecting science. Many fearing science as the voice of the Satan.
Do you know of Bible quotes that give evidence of the Christian requirement for judgment? What part of the Bible are ministers using when they warn their flock about the heathens and pagans?
I agree with you. For example, I noticed that the English word 'commandment' is heard by most British and American readers as if it were an order that should be obeyed. In Arabic it is heard as an important advice given by a loving father to his beloved sons. After all, love cannot be commanded; otherwise it can be called anything but true love.
Quoting Athena
Jesus message focuses on the unconditional (lawless) love and nothing but love. And this love contradicts clearly the human instincts of survival.
If I heard Jesus telling me that I have to obey certain rules and observe some religious rituals (in private and/or among some others) to please the Will/Energy behind my existence (God/Lord), I would see in him just a founder of another Pagan religion.
Also, if Jesus tells me that the Will/Energy behind my existence is of One Being only, I would see in him a deceiver who tries convincing me that it is possible for a ‘one of his kind' being can live love or even know it.
Actually, none of these two cases happened.
But for practical reasons, the men in charge of any Christian doctrine around the world had to cleverly turn away from Jesus in many subjects (in other words, they created somehow another Jesus, unlike the one on their Gospel). And they focused instead on Judaism (the Old Testament) which was addressed to the kids of humanity (our ancient primitive ancestors).
"Christians judge all the time. Instead of judging Jesus as not existing, they judge the atheists for being non-believers. Their faith is one out of thousands. It's not special, but they treat it as if it's unique"
True, Christians do judge. Not sure you can judge Jesus exists or not as judgement is more about decisions than believing truth or untruth. Christianity is unique- Jesus was crucified, He also died and rose to Heaven, He was a Jew and never founded the Christianity movement and he understood existentialism extremely well.
Yes, that is exactly what this thread about but some of you word things better than I do.
Criteria- a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided. How is a principle or standard decided? There seems to be studying a holy book and not everyone interprets that the same, or using logic. Now using logic is a problem because most of us do not know the rules for logic. Higher order thinking skills must be learned and the 2012 Texas Republican agenda was to prevent education for higher order thinking. The reasoning was, teaching children to think for themselves results in rebelling against the parents and lack of parental control. That is a rational concern. However, not having higher order thinking skills leads to depending on the leaders God gives us and that is a huge problem! So now what do we need to do?
Education for a technololgical society with unknown values, left no agreement on how we determine values and principles.
The Old Testament is full of references to the extermination of heathens, like:
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” 1 Samuel 15: 2-3.
"But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded," Deuteronomy 20: 16-17.
Don't walk like a Gentile (heathen):
Ephesians 4:17-19
"So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness."
Suppose you could call it (not the religion but how the human brain works) "mob mentality". If you're outside of the mob, you're bad. Lol.
Thank you so much. So what is up the Christians who argue as though those quotes are not part of the Bible and have nothing to do with the Christian leadership of the US today? I never argued religion because back in the day that was considered very bad manners. But then Bush lead us into a war and Billy Graham told us God wants us to send our sons and daughters into war. That was presented as our Christian "power and glory" and the response was many small nations deciding they must have nurclear weapons. Moral, using military might for economic reasons makes the world less safe and it is a serious economic burden.
I want to keep this focused on the difference between basic moral judgment, religious, or the more scientific method. Yes, the Bible can justify war and persecution of others by claiming this is the will of God, and good logic is a more honest and higher level of moral thinking. Democracy is aligned with science. Our liberty and the liberty of others depends on science, not religion. The pandemic is consuming lives and making life difficult around the world, and going to church or political rallies without masks and social distancing is being part of the problem. That behavior most certainly is not the better logic!
Independent thinking should always keep us a little outside of the mob, and when we are not in agreement with what the mob is doing, it is our duty to say so.
The truth is essential to democracy because only when we do the right thing will we get good results. Not because a god is pleased with us and makes this so, but what happens is the consequence of our action. We need scientific thinking, not religion.
What a brilliant idea Athena .. maybe soon we'll be able to make bombs that can blow up entire continents instead of just regional areas. I mean, according to Darwinism if you're smaller or weaker or less intelligent than myself, I just about have a duty to consume, eat, kill, or otherwise "assert my superiority over you" and if I do so, that's just helping the human race. To not do so is to leave us all handicapped.
There's no reason you can't have both.
Portions of the Old Testament, like those I quoted, are generally ignored by most religious figures today.
I think the U.S. is exceptional as many here have accepted a form of fundamental Christianity, are more inclined to not just express but even to boast of their religious affiliation than are believers in other nations, and have historically felt the nation's interests and goals are those of God. They've managed to induce politicians to at least pay lip service to that view, and very few politicians, who it seems are craven by nature, will oppose them in this.
The view that a nation or a people's destiny are sanctioned by God isn't a purely American one, and many other nations have thought much the same. Nations have claimed God is on their side for a long time. These days, though, I think the U.S. is more inclined to think it's favored and directed by God than others. God, as far as the U.S. generally is concerned, is the Christian God.
Christianity isn't the only source of morality, however, and what's called Judeo-Christian ethics and ideals are for the most part derived from pre-Christian thinkers in any case. So, one doesn't have to be a believer in Christianity to make reasonable judgments, moral and otherwise. It happens that reasoning existed long before Christianity. But if you adhere to a religion which purports to be the only true religion, and which claims to follow the requirements of the only true God, reasoning is necessarily limited to employment in the service of doctrine.
Technically, Christianity is about retiring the Old Testament and heh christening a new one. Kinda like "yeah it happened but we don't really do that so much now" .. take that how you please.
If I may take the liberty to rephrase it for the good Gregory, he considers it fiction that is meaningless to him.
The problem with Christianity is not believing there is a God, the reliance on this God. The simplicity of this thinking and believing that is the best we can do is a problem. It is like understanding basic math enough to pass a test but not well enough to do calculus. Democracy is progressive, a constant expanding of intelligence, and requires more advanced thinking than 2 plus 2 is 4. So the thinking of Christians, unless they become educated in higher-order thinking skills, is too simplistic for good moral judgment and political decisions in a modern world.
If people are basing decisions on what they feel, instead of information, there is a problem! If they think politics are about their own gain, rather than the well-being of the whole nation, and considering global warming, the health of the world, then there is a problem. If they are avoiding becoming well informed because they think science is the lies of Satan, we are in big trouble. As Marx said, it is a problem of consciousness. The politic ramificantions are huge.
I don't have enemies. I argue these matters with academic interest
I don't know what your getting at. I refuted Christianity
Yes I do. Aquinas is fun to read but he is a sophist. I am concerned about people hiding their guilt with the Jesus story if I know them. On this forum it is an academic pursuit
Well if you don't want to learn that is on you
I respect you as an elder but I have a few javolins which I know take down Christian apologetics. In fact I have many. I see no reason I can't use them. That gained virtue is greater possessed virtue is the fundamental tenet of my philosophical beliefs
Certainly judgement on its own yes, but this thread was about Christianity and its relation to judgement.
I think the Bible is a certain people's mythological-historical-saga story. The original Jesus Movement was one branch of this movement with emphasis on Son of Man vis a vis messiah (look at book of Enoch 1-3), a mix of mainly Essenism with Hillelite Pharisaic thought. After death, a cult of personality formed, but was still mainly about following Laws (vis a vis the interpretations of the founders of this movement). After death, it was mainly headed by Josh's (Jesus') brother Jacob (James). An interloper from Tarsus came and his own ideas. His name was Paul. Paul started a movement which combined Hellenistic Judaism (see writings of Philo for example) with his own ideas. Son of Man becomes a sacrificial god-man for sins. This idea is already popular amongst mystery cults around empire. It can be relatable to all kinds of peoples, not just one tribal identity and history. Its all about selling the heads of communities so they can convert their brethren. Then when powerful men like the Emperor take it on to help unify East and West under one idea (Constantine), make laws to stomp out any pagan remnants (Theodosius). So yeah, its an amalgam of Paul, Church Fathers (people after Paul), and infusion of all sorts of Greco-Roman thought at the time (including Neoplatonism), into a fundamental ideology (Nicene Creed and bunch of other councils after). Its highly divorced of its original context and replaces the whole notion of what is the template for that one is judged by in the first place.
In fact, I think the nebulousness of judgement is dangerous cause now its anyone's game. However, you can argue that the divisions of Judaisms at the time of Jesus already had the blueprint for comparing different judgements. Thus, the Essenes can cry "Wicked sinners!" To the the pharisees and saducees in Jerusalem who were following a lunar-solar calendar rather than just a solar calendar which they thought was the most accurate (and thus most accurate in holidays for the right time of year to follow the holidays). Essenes can say the Pharisees and Saducees in Jerusalem were impure for following laws one way and not another. However, at least they all agreed on the very laws that were the judgements.
My conclusion from your post is that we can say Jesus was an enlightened person, understanding theology and philosophy. The part about his virgin birth and the authority given to the apostles are most likely added to the historical record. If someone finds Jesus in their heart, that is different from saying the apostles had authority to write the Scriptures. I associate more with Socrates than Jesus, but they are both solely historical people
Whoo- a commandment can be ignored? In war, it is essential to follow the commander. I am groping here because I understand the word as Americans do and it seems our understanding of a commandment is associated with war as the rigid formation of a Roman army. There are those who command and those who follow. This is heavy in our culture with strong religious reasons.
Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, thought God determines who is to rule and who is to serve, and feudalism was strictly controlled by the church. People were thought to be part of the property owned by landlords. The argument that Muslims can not be democratic expresses ignorance of our history and major denial. Come to think of it, my present-day concern about the problem with Christian thinking did not include our history when things were much worse. Coming from our history, it is amazing we have democracy and a notion of equality. But boy, are we struggling with what is in our cultural subconscious and the principles of democracy.
An Arabic point of view throws me into a space that is unknown to me. Do you know of Arab military strategy? I have heard much from Muslims about respect and love. What they are saying is nothing like our image of those we call terrorists. And what you say seems to speak of freedom and tolerance. But how does that right with a father who kills his daughter because she was alone with a man? That is pretty controlling. I have an idea of Arab men as very controlling? Yet the holy book seems an effort to curb the way men treat women and perhaps give women more protection than the Christian Bible.
My goodness, I was not expecting the concern of religion and sexism to come up, but clearly it is a serious issue. The religions are patriarchal and women have been repressed for thousands of years. I am very excited by the power women have gained and the potential for change.
:lol: Obviously you have not read what Darwin said but appear to have a Christian understanding of science. Christians worry a lot about aborting children, and without science, we would be back in a time when people didn't name their children until they were 3 years of age because so many children died before age 3 and life expectation was half of what is today living the world run by youth without the much wisdom of age.
The blessings we have today came from science. Our democracy and liberty depend on science, so it is pretty important to me, people have a better understanding of science than you appear to have. We are not God's favorite people and it is not our God-given destiny to spread out of Rome, killing all indigenous people in our path as we cross Europe and into the Americas. Enslaving people and killing people in the name of God is not moral but it is Christian. People like Billy Graham who tell us God wants us to send our sons and daughters into war, are wrong, and our invasion of Iraq was our shame not the power of glory that Bush wanted us to think it was. People who believe they are doing the will of God have killed more people than atheist. So being a Crusader against science, may not work so well for you.
Doesn't the Bible say we were born into sin? Something akin to evil? If not why did God sacrifice his own son? Why do we need to be saved by Jesus, instead of science?
I'm not sure why, but didn't get notification for this when you mentioned me. Anyways, so you are giving me the Romanized reconstructed version of this, which was exactly as I said was not the original construction which was pretty much following a set of commandments for a group of people. How well you follow these rules, is the model you are "judged" if that is the appropriate word. There are commandments for not eating pigs, and animals that don't chew their cud, and don't have certain type of feet, etc. There is a commandment to drain as much blood as possible from meat. There is a commandment to build open air huts on a certain day of year, there is a commandment to eat unleavened bread on another day of year. There is a commandment not to murder and covet thy neighbor's ass or wife. Those are the things.. Once divorced of this context, it becomes a mish mash of whatever the storyteller wants to sell their believers. I provided the historical context.. It was mainly people like Paul who came after the actual Jesus Movement and moved outside the main Jesus Movement's influence in Jerusalem. The rest is history. See my post again for how I think that history went in a very summarized form.
Our failure to understand what science has to do with good moral judgment and what education for higher-order thinking skills has to do with better logic is a huge problem! AsOutlander argued the world would collapse into sin without Christianity fighting back against Satan. Well, those are not his exact words but I think that is how he sees things. That kind of thinking is not scientific and it is what is wrong with Chrisitanity.
We need to build a better understanding of moral thinking being scientific thinking of cause and effect to combat the notion that we must have religion to be moral. We also have a serious problem with Islam because it is so easy to see US imperialism, and capitalism, as the embodiment of evil. One religious zealot arguing with another, but a different religion, is more apt to escalate problems than resolve them. Democracy when understood as rule by reason, gets us past the holy wars.
Fascinating statement- that judgment and belief are different. I think that is exactly the point I have been trying to make.
Before Jesus there was Mirtha, and later Mohammad also rose to heaven at the site of the rock in Isreal. Either people believe such things happen or they don't. It is silly that when they agree such things happen, they then argue about which religion is the true one when all this religious stuff is based on belief, not scientific judgment such as the judgment of Hippocrates, the father of medicine.
I have thought if the Bible did not include the old testament, that would be an improvement. Then we could have in the beginning was logos, instead of the story of the Garden of Eden. But then why would anyone need to be baptized and saved by Jesus if Eve didn't eat from the forbidden fruit and we didn't believe in supernatural powers and a God who curses people?
I also would like to discuss what you said about morality having to do with cause and effect. If I am interpreting you correctly, I think you are saying that we can know what the bad action was, but we can’t know what caused it. In other words we don’t always know what leads people to make poor decisions or what their intentions are. I agree with that and I do believe that there are cases where intentions can be important in determining judgments. I think a distinct difference between human beings and God is that we lack impartiality. It is nearly impossible for us to be impartial to certain people. That being said I have a small argument that might coincide with what you are trying to convey:
If something cannot be impartial, then it should not judge others.
Human beings cannot be impartial.
Therefore, human beings should not judge others.
Not sure if you would agree at all, but I personally think this is a major reason that human beings should not judge others.
Why would the reason for the person's poor decision matter? Usually it is ignorance. Often it is good intensions. So, why does a person's reasoning matter?
On the other hand, if a female becomes pregnant, we can be sure she had intercourse with a male. If she does not have a home for a child, can not feed the child, and does not have help, she is in trouble. I can not think of a time when we can not know the cause of an effect.
Quoting Emma I am confused. What is being judged? The cause of something?
Quoting Emma
I disagree with that statement. If the actions of a person cause harm to another, we do need to judge that person. Same as we need to judge wild animals. Is the person or animal likely to cause harm?
I don't know if there is any reasoning in this post or not. :lol: I think I argued myself into a corner I can't get out of? This is totally looking like philosophy. Very nit picky. I know some people who are apt to do serious wrongs, and I see the good in them. So now we have good people do bad things? But do all of us see the good in others? Do we tend to think bad people do bad things and not good people?
1. If something promotes arrogance, it is immoral.
2. Christianity promotes arrogance by setting people up to judge each other.
3. Therefore, Christianity is immoral.
I think in this case premise 2 is objectionable. I’m not sure how Christianity sets people up to judge each other. It’s not really clear what you meant by judging a person, but you said it’s something “a God” does and through the title of your post I see that this is a discussion about the Christian God. I think the two ways the Christian God can be said to judge are whether or not someone should receive a punishment or a reward or simply whether or not someone has done something morally good or bad.
I don’t see how Christianity sets people up to judge each other in either of those ways. There are several verses in the Bible about not judging others. One example is James 4:12 (ESV), which says, “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?” This is clearly saying that only God is supposed to judge.
You may be thinking about certain Christians who do judge others. I don’t think it’s specific to Christians though. I think all people have judged others. We definitely all think judgments of other people, but I feel certain that we have all audibly judged another person as well. I’d be surprised if there is a person out there who can fully express their thoughts and has not said that another person did something morally wrong. People in general also say things like, “She deserved to live a longer life.” This would be something that only God can judge, but I don’t think most people would consider it wrong to think or say.
Maybe you were thinking of Christians who condemn things that they believe to be sins because the Bible says they are. In this case as well though, it’s not Christianity that is setting people up to judge each other. People already naturally do this themselves, but Christianity also says that only God can judge, like I have mentioned before.
Hi Athena, you pose interesting questions when it comes to the Christian place in judging others and what the role of a Christian should look like in that respect. I think there needs to be a clarification on the term “judgement”. There is nothing wrong with the term in and of itself. It is simply a neutral term that is the act of coming to the conclusion of something. In this post I will attempt to shed light on what I think the meaning and role of judgement should look like for a Christian according to the Bible.
In John 12:47 Jesus says “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.” If Jesus truly walked this earth, then he was the most morally excellent person to have ever walked the face of the earth and, according to Christian doctrine, he was God in the flesh. Now, if he was clear to say that he doesn’t come to earth to judge people, but to save them, then I think it’s safe to assume that’s a mentality that Christians are also meant to have. Granted the judgment that Jesus speaks of here is about the judgement of people’s souls, which only God the Father will decide, but I think it still rings true to the purpose of a follower of Christ. If Jesus said he didn’t come to judge, then who am I, as a Christian to be one to judge.
Furthermore, in Matthew 7:1-6 is a segment from Jesus’ sermon on the Mount in which he magnifies the ten commandments and helps people realize that it’s all about the posture of one’s heart that matters and not being without sin. Jesus starts this off by talking about how you must not judge, lest you too be judged. Again, just like in John 12:47 this states that as Christ followers our duty is not to judge other people. However, if we read a bit further in Matthew 7:3-5 alludes to the fact that there is a time and place in your life when you can bring judgement, but only when two criteria are met. The first is that you look at yourself and are sure that you too aren’t struggling with whatever you are going to judge a person on. The second is that when you judge someone it is important that is be constructive ang loving. It should be an act that betters someone’s character and doesn’t bring them down. It is wrong to say that there is never a time to be critical and judge someone based on their character because otherwise hardly anyone would one grow and mature. The final scripture I will use to back up my claim that there is a time and place for judgement is Proverbs 27:5-6 “Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.”
To summarize, I think that as Christians we are not meant to go around thinking of ourselves as better than others and constantly judging them for “sinning”, but instead we are to humble ourselves and realize that had it not been for Christ we would have already been judged by God as guilty sinners. There is a time and place to judge and it should always be for the betterment of the other person.
As for Proverbs 27:5-6, this, too, should not be taken as permission to judge others, but as a guide to choosing between expressing criticism and withholding love, when someone does wrong by you. In such a situation, I would argue that the latter would be judgement, rather than the former.
That was a very good argument, but why does anyone need to be saved? Saved from what?
"If Jesus truly walked this earth, then he was the most morally excellent person to have ever walked the face of the earth and, according to Christian doctrine, he was God in the flesh."
Why do you believe that? Are you familiar with Confucius and Buddha so you can make an independent decisions of who is most worthy of our attention?
What is sin?
The Wikipedia explanation is more in line with the one I am familiar with.
Isn't that belief a judgment of all people?
How does Jesus save us?