Love is opportunistic
We all care what we can get in return. There is no such thing as unconditional love. It does not exist. For any love to last, the two partners should be of substance.
Even the perfect love of our Heavenly creator (if you're a theist) has its terms –commandments –or else you're thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.
We only day dream and chase unconditional love, it is a fantasy because it does not exist. No matter how hard we chase after it.
Even the perfect love of our Heavenly creator (if you're a theist) has its terms –commandments –or else you're thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.
We only day dream and chase unconditional love, it is a fantasy because it does not exist. No matter how hard we chase after it.
Comments (37)
Love is an egoistic concept, where you make your partner property and let yourself be the partner's property. Love is nothing more than an established "Egoistic Union". As long as they are both getting what they want, the relationship will continue to exist. If only one of the partners is being fullfiled, something went wrong and it's no longer a egoistic union.
It's interesting that you've met every person in the world and documented all of their experiences. That must have been quite time consuming!
I have loved, greatly so, many things.
from the ocean's fins to the sky's wings.
In passion I desired deep
my love, to in a cage keep
what else in cages sleep?
slaves, bonded, in them weep.
To love and bind as slaves
is to bury the living in graves
Fins, wings, all things between
Freedom is where love's been
:chin:
Have you ever considered that you've never experienced love?
As for "unconditional", if you're getting technical, there is the condition that you be what you are, if what you are is loved. So technically, there is no unconditional love.
When people say, "Unconditional love", they mean, "There is nothing another can do that is natural to their person that will stop me from loving them". So for example, if a person gets laid off, which is something outside of their control, you don't stop loving them.
Love, not romantic love btw, is the understanding of a person's good, a person's bad, and still accepting them and wanting them to be their best regardless. So yeah, when you love a person with a bad temper, and they lose it that day, you still love them. You of course want them to get better, but you'll love them even if they don't.
Romantic love involves attraction and friendship, which complicates the issue. Attraction and friendship often have certain expectations. But love, which you can have for anyone, does not require such things.
You are totally right. In fact, the unconditional love doesn't exist, for sure, to someone who perceives a human living flesh only to take care of. But his existence is also very important. The world needs all sorts of living things to serve it, in one way or another... by building it (in peace time) and destroying it as well (in war time).
Quoting Konkai
Again, you are totally right if we consider how Jews, formal Christians, Muslims and Pagans are supposed to believe.
By the way, Jesus only brought knowledge not law.
His sayings/teachings are addressed to humans, as individuals and not as groups of people. As you know, in case of a formal group, people have no choice but being gathered under a certain law, said of God or else... not love :)
Quoting Konkai
You are right. Unconditional Love and unlimited trust have to be fantasies. Almost all humans on earth are created to just serve the world while being selfish; that is in exchange for living the pre-programmed pleasures embedded in their bodies once a while.
There are different sorts of love, some openly conditional, like that between spouses where there are certain explicit boundaries (e.g. forsaking all others), and some far less conditional, like a parent to a child. My love for my children is not predicated upon their doing anything, and it's hard to imagine there is something that they could do to totally eliminate it.
Isn't it a pre-programmed natural love?
Yes, I also knew fathers and mothers who didn't or couldn't love their children as you do.
Whether it's pre-programmed or natural love seems irrelevant to the question of whether it exists.
:chin:
"There is no lonelier man in death, except the suicide, than that man who has lived many years with a good wife and then outlived her. If two people love each other there can be no happy end to it." ~Ernest Hemingway, Death in the Afternoon, 1932
I am afraid it is relevant but I have no intension to undermine at all the way you love your children.
Quoting Konkai
Many decades ago, a friend of mine was missed (we learnt later that he died) leaving behind two little boys (30 months and 18 months). His family was Muslim (I am not). He, not highly educated, hoped that I can teach his boys (besides their teachers at school) when they will grow up. So, during daylight, I took care of the elder first, by teaching him how to read and write even in his early years. A few years later, I sent him also to school with his brother (Now, they are in their 40's, married and have children while living each in another country). I am telling this story to add that all mothers (mainly the Christian ones), I knew while I was taking care of the two kids, were very disappointed for not being married though ready to take care (even financially), as a good loving father does, of two kids who are not of my blood and their family is somehow stranger to me. But these same mothers were also loving mothers and ready to defend their children (always and at any cost) no matter what they do.
I am talking about reality, not to judge anyone's love. I apologize in advance for any inconvenience.
It can be hard to imagine things that exist and things that don't exist.
:heart: :broken:
Hi Philosophim, I've experienced love, healthy conditional love; in which I get my needs met.
I don't have any children, but I think you're finding it hard to influence your children. No matter what unacceptable thing they do you'll always love them. But conditional love can foster the notion that what you do has consequences early on in a child, if they do something you'd consider unacceptable you withdraw your love from them. It is a subtle way of raising better human beings.
Rather, than them always experincing boundless love.
Let's say, they are dishonest, you realize that, "then act aloof towards them." The child will feel the lost love from dad or mum. And would course correct.
These are the conditions of love, they make it perfect when experienced.
I guess what I'm saying is that conditional love is more of a tactic in this situation. To instill qualities like discipline, patience, responsibility, honesty, respect etc.
With time, children start to internalize healthy conditional love that guides them to act in ethical ways.
Let's say, you show unconditional love to your children, forever. Now they are adults, you and me know that romantic love has conditions (it is more of work, than something that just happens) what do you think these adults will be after –"unconditional love."
Which is unrealistic, they can be dragged through mud by someone who does not love them as much, but in their heads, they are thinking "I love you for who you are and nothing is going to change that. "
...
But if they are aware that love can be withdrawn, then we have healthier relationships were love is reciprocated, and not one sided...
I'm 19, life has proven to me that most things have strings attached and love is not an exception.
I'll love my girlfriend as long as she meets certain criteria, which I'll not explicitly tell her. But at the back of my mind I know what the criteria are.
Now you can't tell anyone overtly that you love them because... ;It won't be sincere, and its not the ideal that society wants us to live upto.
If we were more realistic, we could be telling our loved ones that I love you because... You're intelligent, you're a great cook or you're fashionable. But saying that won't be sincere, it would feel like a transaction. So we opt for the one with less effect.... "I love you. " and we leave it at that.
Until something happens that turns the tables.
If you think, your children love you the same way you love them unconditionally, ask the old folks in retirement homes whose children don't even visit.
This is either trolling or the worst parenting advice ever.
If what you feel for your kids is something that can immediately and voluntarily be withdrawn as a punishment, it ain't love of any sort. Or what @Hanover said.
I wouldn't want to leave, but let me. I won't do any good in this forum. –Delete my acccount and discussions.
Thanks.
OK, if you still feel that way after a day I will (your account at least), athough I wouldn't take the criticism here too personally. Good intentions may be misread or misunderstood. That's nothing out of the ordinary.
Konkai, I don't believe you have offended anyone. When you come to a philosophy forum, expect to have your ideas and beliefs challenged. We come to challenge, and be challenged by others. It can be painful to learn that our ideas are not widely accepted by others, and also painful to realize that others may be right.
But if you want to be a successful, intelligent, and rational person, such experiences are necessary for growth. You're young, and your feelings are completely understandable. Take it from us old timers who have been exactly where you are right now. You are not being judged or hated. You are being challenged so you will think about your beliefs in a more fully examined way.
But you are not a troll, your words are not worthless, and you are perfectly welcome and encouraged to stay.
Thank you.
OK, I've deleted your email, changed your username, and removed membership.
Also I think a few Buddhist monks might say otherwise.
How can it not be an act of egoism, since you acquire the love of someone as you sell your love to another person. It is an exchange of good-feelingness. If love were not something that brought realization to your individual, you probably wouldn't want to experience it.
Quoting Darkneos
There is not.
I doubt that you would sacrifice yourself to save the life of one of your dogs, and why? Because your individual is worth much more - to you - than an irrational animal. The fact that you'll deny my point above simply shows that the act of saying "I have unconditional love for my animals or" I believe that unconditional love exists "makes you feel good about yourself and be well regarded by yourself; as a virtuous person, someone worthy of the egoism of others...
And like I said there are plenty of Buddhist monks and some "enlightened" folks who would beg to disagree with your claim.
I would argue that your denial of it's existence makes you sound jaded or edgy rather than say anything about the love itself.
I very much doubt that this is true. You can say that because - here I am based on speculation - you are probably not in a situation where this choice must be made - between you and your animals -. I am not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying that this love is not as deep as you think it is.
Quoting Darkneos
You just stated my point that you say this to be accepted by yourself the moment you answered me with:
"most people don't even know that and I don't tell them"
If that was true, you wouldn't need to defend yourself as much as you did.
Quoting Darkneos
In this we agree.
Quoting Darkneos
Here you simply found it necessary to use Ad Hominem because you disagree with my opinion.
Also it's not really ad hominem since there is a pattern among those who decry love the way you do. It's not really rooted in logic but more negative personal experience with it.
Quoting Gus Lamarch
This is sort of false reasoning. I am explaining myself in regards to your claim about such a love not existing but all you seem to do is assume my feelings and what they mean. I never said it to be accepted by myself, you are reading into things that aren't there. I am merely qualifying the love I have for my dogs. You are making a claim about love but I am giving evidence on why that claim is false. There are also plenty of other people who also exhibit unconditional love or love that isn't egoic. I think you have a narrow conception on the matter.
Quoting Gus Lamarch
I would have to disagree with this.
Either way, I wouldn't go by your argument on love.
We agree to disagree!
If you say that unconditional love doesn't exist and you're able to reach an agreement as to how you're defining "unconditional love," then you've not submitted as much a philosophical inquiry as an empirical one. So, if someone says that they have experienced the unconditional love you've asserted does not exist, then in order to maintain your thesis that such does not exist, then you're left telling them that they're confused as to their feelings, despite you're having no access to their feelings. What this can only mean is that you yourself lack such feelings and you don't find it possible that someone else should have the feelings that elude you.
So what we know is that you've never experienced unconditional love. I know this because you told me. Would it not be as absurd for me to tell you that you have in fact experienced unconditional love even though you told me otherwise as it is for you to tell a poster he hasn't experienced unconditional love when he says he has? What are you accessing that allows you to know he's not telling the truth?
That was until I discovered that the people I knew who had introduced it to me were extremely opportunistic themselves. I do think that the individuals really believed that they were practising unconditional love because they saw it as a theoretical underpinning for working with others professionaly but had not stopped to consider the difference between therapeutic work and daily life.
I believe that Carl Rogers was a very important writer but while he wrote very well on the subject it is too easy to romanticize that one can achieve such high ideals. I would love to say that I can l can give unconditional love, but I am too aware of the shadow as Jung described. Dark motives can smuggle in through the back door unexpectedly.
The same context can be applied to love. No one can ever have "access" to love, as it is an abstract concept of how we perceive the relationships between individuals - I use "Egos", but you can go with whatever you want -. Even without having access to the OP's feelings or emotions, through the use of egoism it can be said that this "unconditional" feeling of love is simply a masquerade of who he really is - this is not only focused on the OP but to Man as a whole -. This "confusion of feelings" that you claim I'm focusing on is real. Just simply question or deny anyone's absolute truths, which in most cases, they collapse into denial and eventually anger - it's really horrible when we look at ourselves in the mirror and see what we truly are -.
Again, I am not saying that love is a bad thing or that it should be abolished, on the contrary, it must continue to be used as purpose. However, to say that something can be "unconditional", that is, that there are no adverse conditions that can change the conception of such a concept by the human individual, is something that human nature itself already debunks in itself. The fact that we are Beings - as in existence - already makes absolute concepts unattainable, and therefore, if affirmed by an existing being, false.
Quoting Hanover
I don't remember talking to you about my personal life. In fact, I don't even know why I would do that.
If we can arrive at a suitable definition of unconditional love, then we can then search the world for its existence. If you're saying that it's an impossibility by logical operation in terms of what a person is, then we needn't search the world for it. I'd submit that if we use the term "unconditional love," we could probably find out how we're using it and what we're referencing, which would likely allow for some allowances of some conditions. I would imagine that even in the most extreme examples of acceptance of others where the love seemed entirely unconditional, you could hypothesize a situation arising involving such malice and injury where the person might rethink their love.
So, if I love my child throughout his life regardless of the ups and downs we might experience, that would entail unconditional love as far as I'm concerned, even if we could hypothesize a situation where I might have questioned my love had it occurred at some point.
Quoting Gus Lamarch
You said unconditional love didn't exist, so you did in fact tell me that within your personal life you have never experienced unconditional love.
The point that you consider in your argument "ups and downs" in relation to your relationship with your hypothetical child already proves my view that unconditional love does not exist, because if it were absolute, you would not even consider the existence of such periods.
Quoting Hanover
This is not philosophy but opiniative speculation based on your view that unconditional love exists, even though you have no proof that such an emotion may exist.