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Foucault and Wittgenstein

Pneumenon October 21, 2020 at 02:36 9050 views 44 comments
Foucault's Archaeology of Knowledge:

The possibility of an enunciative analysis, if it is established, must make it possible to raise the transcendental obstacle that a certain form of philosophical discourse opposes to all analyses of language, in the name of the being of that language and of the ground from which it should derive its origin.


Is he talking about Wittgenstein? I think so.

And what in the hell does he mean with that bolded section? Perhaps: the roots of language lie in its material conditions, and Wittgenstein's transcendental obstacle is no obstacle at all if one reduces the changing riverbed of On Certainty to the interplay of institutional power. What would Wittgenstein say in response? That Foucault was already going in circles....

Comments (44)

David Mo October 21, 2020 at 06:59 #463332
Quoting Pneumenon
Is he talking about Wittgenstein? I think so.


Yes. In reality he is against all analytical philosophy and similar.

But to understand Foucault, if such a thing is possible, we should go to p. 90 ff. of The Archaeology of Knowledge (New York, Pantheon Books, 1972) where he explains his peculiar conception of "statement".
However, I doubt that it can be understood because he resorts to markedly metaphorical expressions that he does not explain ("field of emergence", "spaces of differentiation"...).

One can see in any case that the description of this enunciative level
can be performed neither by a formal analysis, nor by a semantic investiga­-
tion, nor by verification, but by the analysis of the relations between the
statement and the spaces of differentiation , in which the statement itself
reveals the differences. (Wittgenstein, Ibid, p. 92)


Perhaps someone can explain this Foucaulian entanglement. I would appreciate it.
Gregory October 21, 2020 at 19:48 #463573
It seems to me post modernism wants to root language and knowledge in biology and culture, which might put too much pressure on Wittgenstein's position for it to hold. I am interested in post modernist conceptions about physics, since much of the latter seems to me to be philosophy
Banno October 21, 2020 at 20:07 #463589
Quoting Pneumenon
And what in the hell does he mean with that bolded section?


What does he mean by the rest of the quote, while you are at it.

Quoting David Mo
he is against all analytical philosophy


That's like being against motherhood. No one actually believes it, it's what folk say to get attention.
Ciceronianus October 21, 2020 at 20:55 #463608
Quoting Banno
What does he mean by the rest of the quote, while you are at it.


It's all so clear.

That possible enunciative analysis--possible, bear in mind, not actual--simply must make it possible--not certain or probable--to raise that transcendental obstacle--no ordinary obstacle, mind you--to all analyses of language, in the name of the being of that language--being being, after all, being, and the being of the language therefore not being the language itself--but not merely in the name of the being of that language; also in the name of the ground from which it--the being of that language, or perhaps that language, or perhaps the transcendental obstacle (here it becomes a little bit unclear)--should derive its origin--not necessarily, therefore, the ground from which it does or may derive its origin.
Banno October 21, 2020 at 21:03 #463611
Reply to Ciceronianus the White Ah... yes... I see...

Thank you. You have expressed the essence of the issue.
Ciceronianus October 21, 2020 at 21:28 #463620
Reply to Banno

In short, if A is possible, then it must make B possible, which opposes C, in the name of the being of C, and of the D from which (B, the being of C, or C) should derive. I think we can just substitute most anything we like for A, B, the being of C, C and D and the resulting assertion will seem much like that made by Foucault, and make as much sense.

If time travel is possible, then it must make visiting the past possible, which opposes the view that time travel is not possible, in the name of the being of time travel and of the idea from which time travel should derive.

If good is possible, than it must make evil possible, which opposes determinism, in the name of the being of free will and from the idea of free will from which free will should derive.

Sadly, I could go on and on.
Gregory October 21, 2020 at 22:12 #463634
Reply to Ciceronianus the White

I've seen these kind of objections to Hegel, but the more I read him the more I don't see it. I'd bet if you read the post modernist in context, it can be seen they are not just playing games. I look forward to reading much of them in the future
Gregory October 21, 2020 at 23:21 #463664
Wittgenstein wanted to find a universal algorithm for human language. Herder of Germanycenturies before post modernist thinkers had already told the French such was impossible. I notice how some are willing to entertain Humean doubts, also, but not when they are voiced by post modernism. I think post modernism will morph into something else and dramatically change the West. I don't see it going away.
Banno October 21, 2020 at 23:38 #463669
Quoting Gregory
Wittgenstein wanted to find a universal algorithm for human language.


No, he didn't.

So there's your problem, right there.
Gregory October 21, 2020 at 23:54 #463675
Reply to Banno

Does not the private language argument amount to saying everything can be expressed in language. "It depends on the language, culture, and biology" is the post modern response. I'm open to criticism in this
Gregory October 22, 2020 at 00:41 #463694
If I'm not mistaken, Wittgenstein would say every word is translatable from one language into any other. He says the private experience of the word is known only on an individual basis, but language is a game we all play. Post modernist deny that all words can be translated. They told me tis in college in my cultural anthropology class. And Mexican people have told me they have words there is no way to translate into English. I tried to press them "is the word something good, bad, referring to something, ect." They just say it's a cultural barrier
Banno October 22, 2020 at 01:00 #463697
Quoting Gregory
Does not the private language argument amount to saying everything can be expressed in language


Nope. It just argues that anything you can talk about is, more or less by definition, not private.

Banno October 22, 2020 at 01:01 #463698
Quoting Gregory
If I'm not mistaken,


Well...

That sounds more like Davidson than Wittgenstein.
Gregory October 22, 2020 at 01:13 #463703
Most of what I hear from Wittgenstein is trivial. So far I haven't seen a strong, solid idea from him
Banno October 22, 2020 at 01:17 #463706
Reply to Gregory Yeah, that's really about you, I suspect.
David Mo October 22, 2020 at 06:21 #463785
Quoting Banno
That's like being against motherhood. No one actually believes it, it's what folk say to get attention.


No one believes in analytical philosophy? Many philosophers believe in it or go on the same way.
David Mo October 22, 2020 at 07:03 #463787
Quoting Gregory
It seems to me post modernism wants to root language and knowledge in biology and culture, which might put too much pressure on Wittgenstein's position for it to hold.


Foucault's opposition to analytical philosophy seems to be based on the fact that the analysis of language leaves out linguistic functions that are not restricted to the semantic meaning of a statement. This is something that no one, not even the analytical philosophers, denies. The problem is to specify what these "domains" are that "correlate" with the statement. Here is a list:

Domain of material objects possessing a certain number of observable physical properties, a domain of fictitious objects , a domain of spatial and geographical localizations, a domain of symbolic appurtenances and secret kinships; a domain of objects that exist at the same moment and on the same time-scale as the statement is formulated, a domain of objects that belongs to a quite different present -that indicated and constituted by the statement itself, laws of possibility, rules of existence.


The referential of the statement forms the place, the condition, the field of emergence, the authority to differentiate between individuals or objects, states of things and relations that are brought into play by the statement itself; it defines the possibilities of appearance and delimitation of that which gives meaning to the sentence, a value as truth to the proposition. It is this group that characterizes the enunciative level of the formulation. (Foucault: Ibid, p. 91)


I honestly see nothing that an analytical philosopher cannot accept in principle within the concept of meaning as use of language. What Foucault mentions are only some not strictly referential uses of language. Or I have not fully understood the scope of his proposal and someone can explain it to me better.
David Mo October 22, 2020 at 07:32 #463794
Quoting Gregory
It seems to me post modernism wants to root language and knowledge in biology and culture, which might put too much pressure on Wittgenstein's position for it to hold.


In Wittgenstein's idea, the "analytical" philosopher is not concerned with language for its own sake, but with the epistemic values to which its uses point. Consequently, the role of grammatical systems is to manifest the multifaceted life and/or cultural perspectives that the human world allows us. In Wittgenstein there is a "metaphysical" background that is reflected in his diaries and conversations more conspicuously than in the Investigations or the Tractatus.
Banno October 22, 2020 at 08:15 #463801
Quoting David Mo
No one believes in analytical philosophy?


:roll:
Streetlight October 22, 2020 at 08:30 #463803
Reply to Pneumenon Hmm, what makes you think he's talking about Wittgenstein? It seems to me that his target here is rather structuralism (and phenomenology). I'll get to this. As for the bolded section - surely it's simply referring to the passage that just precedes what you quoted. Read together:

"Language, in its appearance and mode of being, is the statement; as such, it belongs to a description that is neither transcendental nor anthropological. ... The possibility of an enunciative analysis, if it is established, must make it possible to raise the transcendental obstacle that a certain form of philosophical discourse opposes to all analyses of language, in the name of the being of that language and of the ground from which it should derive its origin.

Thus: In the name of the statement [which 'is' language], the transcendental obstacle must be raised so that enunciative analysis can take place.

--

As for what this 'transcendental obstacle' is - again, I think it's structuralism. Read the posed Q&A in the conclusion. Foucault there continually associates transcendental inquiry with strucutrualism, and continually works to distance himself from it: "For me, the problem was certainly not how to structuralize [the history of thought], by applying to the development of knowledge or to the genesis of the sciences categories that had proved themselves in the domain of language (langue). ... My aim was to cleanse it of all transcendental narcissism; it had to be freed from that circle of the lost origin, and rediscovered where it was imprisoned; it had to be shown that the history of thought could not have this role of revealing the transcendental moment that rational mechanics has not possessed since Kant..." (p.203).
Ciceronianus October 22, 2020 at 14:46 #463866
Quoting Gregory
I've seen these kind of objections to Hegel, but the more I read him the more I don't see it. I'd bet if you read the post modernist in context, it can be seen they are not just playing games. I look forward to reading much of them in the future


I think anyone who reads Hegel is remarkable, in the same sense that I think anyone who voluntarily wears hair shirts is remarkable. It's as if one is doing penance in the hope of being rewarded sometime, if not in heaven then perhaps in 19th century Prussia during the reign of Friedrich Wilhelm III, its earthly equivalent.

But I suspect context could provide some clarification, if the author deigns to supply helpful definitions for the more obscure words and phrases or if the reader is already familiar with the jargon. When that's required in order for an author to be understood, though, I don't think it does him/her any credit.
David Mo October 22, 2020 at 15:35 #463871
Quoting Banno
:roll:


:roll:??
Gregory October 23, 2020 at 15:30 #464161
Quoting Ciceronianus the White
I think anyone who reads Hegel is remarkable, in the same sense that I think anyone who voluntarily wears hair shirts is remarkable. It's as if one is doing penance in the hope of being rewarded sometime, if not in heaven then perhaps in 19th century Prussia during the reign of Friedrich Wilhelm III, its earthly equivalent.

But I suspect context could provide some clarification, if the author deigns to supply helpful definitions for the more obscure words and phrases or if the reader is already familiar with the jargon. When that's required in order for an author to be understood, though, I don't think it does him/her any credit.


Reading Hegel is like a game. You have to try to figure out what he is getting at all the time. He hardly defines his terms, ever. So I enjoy it. His thought that all truth besides the Absolute truth is only a semblence of truth sounds like post-modernism, except that the latter denies Hegel has proven there is an Absolute truth. I don't see post-modernists as relativist. They seem to doubt much, yes, and like Sextus Empiricus, may doubt even that they doubt. But in that situation you ask yourself "then what am I doing?" Back to Descartes, see? For post modernism, there is only a semblence of truth, and only a semblence of truth in post modernism FOR post modern thought. However far back you take it, the whole series is eclipsed by semblence. There is no absolute objective truth, but then again post modernism is no full blown relativism (which is inconsistent). I don't see post modernism is self-inconsistent
Ciceronianus October 23, 2020 at 16:34 #464182
Quoting Gregory
There is no absolute objective truth, but then again post modernism is no full blown relativism (which is inconsistent). I don't see post modernism is self-inconsistent


Absolute truth, like absolute certainty, is a chimera. If they were geese, they may be said to have led philosophers on a wild goose chase for 2,500 years or more. But they're unnecessary, as we may make intelligent judgments, conclusions and decisions based on the best evidence available, on probabilities, on what's been tried in the past and the results of those efforts. From what I know of it, it's the suspicion and devaluation of reason and reasoning, which may be some kind of reaction to the pretensions of the Enlightenment, which disturbs me about postmodernism. As far as criticism of philosophical thinking in general and the idea of truth in particular is concerned, I much prefer that made by Dewey. He was less inclined to dispense with the use of critical intelligence--inquiry, as he called it, which includes logic, experimentation and reasoning--in assessing our lives and the world in which we live.
Banno October 24, 2020 at 00:55 #464312
This, from here:

The oldest son of a civil servant from south-west Germany, Georg Hegel was born a quarter of a millennium ago, in 1770. As a theology student in Stuttgart, Hegel feared that he would become a Populärphilosoph – a populariser of complex theories. There was little danger of that! In fact, few thinkers are as difficult to understand. Hegel himself in his monumentally dense Phenomenology of Spirit grumbled about the “complaints regarding the unintelligibility of philosophical writings from individuals who otherwise possess the educational requirements for understanding them.” But being difficult to read does not mean he is wrong. It is odd that we are content to carefully analyse a mathematical proof, willing to ponder poetry again and again, but often not willing to do the same with philosophy. Critics of Hegel’s philosophy sometime fail to understand that this roommate of the romantic poet Friedrich Hölderlin sought to combine the stringency of mathematics with the beauty and grace of the poetic. We should, for this reason, follow Hegel when he says that philosophy must be “read over and over before it can be understood” (Phenomenology of Spirit, p.39).


Not a bad argument for reading Hegel; but there's plenty of other stuff to read first.
Gregory October 24, 2020 at 01:51 #464318
Hegel thought everything, history AND thought, moved by way of syllogism. Everything was logic, leading to the ultimate conclusion known as the Absolute. Everything on the way to this Omega Point (to use Teilhard's term) was only partially true, a semblance or shadow of the absolute.

I was listening to Bertrand Russell on Bergson. Bergson renounced reason to an extent and promoted philosophical intuition. I don't know how this related to post monernism, but ye there is a lot to read out there
Number2018 October 24, 2020 at 23:12 #464595
Reply to David Mo
Quoting David Mo
to understand Foucault, if such a thing is possible, we should go to p. 90 ff. of The Archaeology of Knowledge (New York, Pantheon Books, 1972) where he explains his peculiar conception of "statement".
However, I doubt that it can be understood because he resorts to markedly metaphorical expressions that he does not explain ("field of emergence", "spaces of differentiation"...).

One can see in any case that the description of this enunciative level
can be performed neither by a formal analysis, nor by a semantic investiga­-
tion, nor by verification, but by the analysis of the relations between the
statement and the spaces of differentiation , in which the statement itself
reveals the differences. (Wittgenstein, Ibid, p. 92)

Perhaps someone can explain this Foucaulian entanglement. I would appreciate it.


“The statement is not the direct projection on to the plane of language
(langage) of a particular situation or a group of representations. It is not
simply the manipulation by a speaking subject of a number of elements
and linguistic rules. At the very outset, from the very root, the statement
is divided up into an enunciative field in which it has a place and a status,
which arranges for its possible relations with the past, and which opens up
for it a possible future. Every statement is specified in this way: there is no
statement in general, no free, neutral, independent statement; but a statement
always belongs to a series or a whole, always plays a role among
other statements, deriving support from them and distinguishing itself
from them: it is always part of a network of statements, in which it has a
role, however minimal it may be, to play. Whereas grammatical construction
needs only elements and rules in order to operate; whereas one
might just conceive of a language (langue) - an artificial one, of course whose
only purpose is the construction of a single sentence; whereas the
alphabet, the rules of construction and transformation of a formal system
being given, one can perfectly well define the first proposition of this
language (langage) , the same cannot be said of the statement. There is no
statement that does not presuppose others; there is no statement that is not
surrounded by a field of coexistences, effects of series and succession, a
distribution of functions and roles. If one can speak of a statement, it is
because a sentence (a proposition) figures at a definite point, with a specific
position, in an enunciative network that extends beyond it.” (Foucault, Ibid, p. 99)

Foucault implements the double move here. First, he rejects a formal analysis or a semantic investigation to perform a structuralist conceptualization of a discursive formation: his statement represents a group of associated statements with inherent formation and enunciation rules. No statement can appear without the co-existence and co-operation of similar, opposing, supporting, etc. ones. Secondly, he tries to replace the structuralist approach: a family of affiliated statements is not homogeneous. When one operates discursive formation statements, there are different systems effectuated in the same process: observations, descriptions, calculations, institutions, etc. Also, the operating rules themselves are not general permanent axioms; they are variable or optional. They do not determine a structure or a system; any rule applied is primarily determined by a current enunciative context and, simultaneously, changes this context.
The principle of an inherent variation substitutes for formal structuralist
rules of construction and transformation.
Gregory October 24, 2020 at 23:44 #464611
I think the further we go back in history (studying texts), the less likely it is that we are really understanding the language because language changes constantly. I doubt anyone knows what the Bible really said for example
David Mo October 25, 2020 at 06:08 #464681
One can see in any case that the description of this enunciative level
can be performed neither by a formal analysis, nor by a semantic investiga­-
tion, nor by verification, but by the analysis of the relations between the
statement and the spaces of differentiation , in which the statement itself
reveals the differences. ([s]Wittgenstein[/s], Ibid, p. 92)


My mistake; this excerpt is by Foucault.
David Mo October 25, 2020 at 06:24 #464684
Quoting Number2018
They do not determine a structure or a system; any rule applied is primarily determined by a current enunciative context and, simultaneously, changes this context.


That is what I had more or less understood. I don't know much about structuralism, except Barthes (a little) and Althusser (less). I don't think they are closed to the consideration of how a linguistic system varies with context.
Certainly not Wittgenstein. See how in the second Wittgenstein words are defined by their use and this is inserted in a context of both linguistic and non-linguistic activities. Nor is it possible to speak of a single context since language comprises a multiplicity of functions.

It would have been nice if Foucault had mentioned the author or authors he was targeting with his criticism. But it is somewhat rare for famous philosophers to critically mention contemporary authors. They probably expose themselves to the discovery that they have not been seriously read them. This is often the case.

If Foucault's criticism refers only to the contextuality of meaning, it seems to me that it is not very original. I suspect that there is something else.
Number2018 October 25, 2020 at 22:25 #464928
Reply to David Mo Quoting David Mo
It would have been nice if Foucault had mentioned the author or authors he was targeting with his criticism. But it is somewhat rare for famous philosophers to critically mention contemporary authors. They probably expose themselves to the discovery that they have not been seriously read them. This is often the case.

If Foucault's criticism refers only to the contextuality of meaning, it seems to me that it is not very original. I suspect that there is something else.


It was not just about the contextuality of meaning. In "Archeology of knowledge," Foucault shows how his statements are related to speech-acts. Later, he opposes his conceptualization of performative acts to Austin's theory in "The government of self and others.”: “In a performative utterance, the given elements of the situation are such that when the utterance is made, the effect which follows is known and ordered in advance, it is codified, and this is precisely what constitutes the performative character of the utterance. In parresia, on the other hand, whatever the usual, familiar, and quasi-institutionalized character of the situation in which it is effectuated, what makes it parresia is that the introduction, the irruption of the true discourse determines an open situation, or rather opens the situation and makes possible effects which are, precisely, not known. Parresia does not produce a codified effect; it opens up an unspecified risk. And this unspecified risk is obviously a function of the elements of the situation”. Differently from the performative, parresia constitutes a rupture with the dominant significations, an irruptive event that creates a fracture. Also, to accomplish a performative utterance, the status of the subject is necessary, but just as a formal function. What makes “Excuse me” a performative is what one says. Whether one is sincere or not is of no importance. On the contrary, the parrhesiastic enunciation not only produces effects on others, but primarily affects the enunciating subject.

.
Deleted User October 25, 2020 at 22:34 #464931
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
David Mo October 26, 2020 at 07:28 #465026
Quoting Number2018
It was not just about the contextuality of meaning.


Quoting Number2018
There is no statement that does not presuppose others; there is no statement that is not surrounded by a field of coexistences, effects of series and succession, a
distribution of functions and roles.


I would say that these words of Foucault are equivalent to what is called in common language "context", both intralinguistic and extralinguistic. See below.

There is no mention of Austin in The Archaeology of Knowledge. You will refer to another book.

I have fouund a mention in La verdad y las formas jurídicas (Barcelona, 1984, p. 154), a book I know a little better, in which he mentions Wittgenstein and Austin:

What seems to me a little limited in the analysis of Strawson, Searle, etc. [Wittgenstein, Austin], is that they are strategy analyses of a discourse that is made around a cup of tea, in an Oxford salon, which are interesting strategy games, but which seem to me to be profoundly limited. The problem would be if you can't study strategy in a more real context, within practices that are different from salon conversations. Personal translation from the Spanish edition.


I would point out two things:
On the one hand, Foucault himself uses the word context to refer to the "field" of statements that forms a discourse. We are indeed talking about a problem of context.
Secondly, the difference between his theory and that of "Anglo-Saxon philosophers" does not seem to be one of theoretical principles, but rather of the backgrounds to which they apply, according Foucault himself. For my part, it seems to me that reducing Wittgenstein's context to the realm of "salon discussions" is a frivolity. Wittgenstein's writings on aesthetics and ethics, to cite one example, are something else.

There is a certain proximity in more than one point between Foucault's initial statements and some of the Wittgenstein's anthropological statements, which allows for a reading in which Wittgenstein's positions on life forms as the basis from which language acquires meaning and Foucault's theory are approached.

In fact, the differences between Searle and Foucault became narrower during the course of the epistolary exchange that both maintained. Finally, Foucault acknowledges : "As for the analysis of the acts of speech, I totally agree with your precisions. I was wrong to say that statements were not acts of speech, but in saying this I wanted to underline the fact that I consider them from a different angle than yours". (Letter from Foucault to Searle, 15 May 1979). Quoted by Maite Larrauri: Verdad y racionalidad en Michel Foucault, doctoral thesis, Universitat de València, Academic Year 1989-1990, p. 35

NOTE: I apologize for using Spanish bibliography. It is the one I usually use.
Number2018 October 26, 2020 at 22:47 #465260
Reply to David Mo Quoting David Mo
There is no mention of Austin in The Archaeology of Knowledge.


Quoting Number2018
In "Archeology of knowledge," Foucault shows how his statements are related to speech-acts.



"Can one not say that there is a statement wherever one can recognize and isolate
an act of formulation - something like the speech act referred to by the
English analysts? This term does not, of course, refer to the material act of
speaking (aloud or to oneself) or of writing (by hand or typewriter); nor
does it refer to the intention of the individual who is speaking (the fact
that he wants to convince someone else, to be obeyed, to discover the
solution to a problem, or to communicate information); nor does it refer
to the possible result of what he has said (whether he has convinced someone
or aroused his suspicion; whether he was listened to and whether his
orders were carried out; whether his prayer was heard); what one is
referring to is the operation that has been carried out by the formula
itself, in its emergence: promise, order, decree, contract, agreement,
observation. The speech act is not what took place just prior to the moment
when the statement was made (in the author's thought or intentions) ;
it is not what might have happened, after the event itself, in its wake, and
the consequences that it gave rise to; it is what occurred by the very fact
that a statement was made - and precisely this statement (and no other) in
specific circumstances. Presumably, therefore, one individualization of
statements refers to the same criteria as the location of acts of formulation:
each act is embodied in a statement and each statement contains one of those
acts. They exist through one another in an exact reciprocal relationship.
Yet such a correlation does not stand up to examination. For one thing,
more than a statement is often required to effect a speech act: an oath, a
prayer, a contract, a promise, or a demonstration usually require a certain
number of distinct formulas or separate sentences”(Ibid, pg 83)

Quoting David Mo
the difference between his theory and that of "Anglo-Saxon philosophers" does not seem to be one of theoretical principles, but rather of the backgrounds to which they apply,


Foucault proposes that the statement exists as a primordial generative function that does not depend on external factors. The founding principle of fundamental redundancy distinguish a statement from a non-statement. So, a series of letters which one might write down at random would become a statement. "The keyboard of a typewriter is not a statement; but the same series of letters, A,Z,E,R, T, listed in a typewriting manual, is the statement".
David Mo October 27, 2020 at 06:10 #465385
Quoting Number2018
a primordial generative function that does not depend on external factors.


Domain of material objects possessing a certain number of observable physical properties, a domain of fictitious objects , a domain of spatial and geographical localizations, a domain of symbolic appartenances and secret kinships;e a domain of objects that exist at the same moment and on the same time-scale as the statement is formulated, a domain of objects that belongs to a quite different present -
that indicated and constituted by the statement itself, laws of possibility, rules of existence.

These are Foucault's exact expressions in The Archaeology of Knowledge which constitute the domain of the enunciative value. Do they not refer to the context of the enunciation? Space, time, location are not external factors?

The concept of the generative function of language does not appear in The Archaeology of Knowledge,. Are you not applying alien concepts in your interpretation of Foucault? What do you mean with "generative function"?
Number2018 October 27, 2020 at 23:05 #465673
Reply to David Mo Quoting David Mo
Domain of material objects possessing a certain number of observable physical properties, a domain of fictitious objects , a domain of spatial and geographical localizations, a domain of symbolic appartenances and secret kinships;e a domain of objects that exist at the same moment and on the same time-scale as the statement is formulated, a domain of objects that belongs to a quite different present -
that indicated and constituted by the statement itself, laws of possibility, rules of existence.

These are Foucault's exact expressions in The Archaeology of Knowledge which constitute the domain of the enunciative value. Do they not refer to the context of the enunciation? Space, time, location are not external factors?


Foucault asserts that "A series of signs will become a statement on condition that it possesses 'something else'(which may be strangely similar to it, and almost identical as in the
example chosen), a specific relation that concerns itself- and not its cause,
or its elements". If so, the relations of a statement with 'external factors' are the derivatives
of the essential enunciative function. The statement is essentially self-sufficient and autonomous.

Quoting David Mo
The concept of the generative function of language does not appear in The Archaeology of Knowledge,. Are you not applying alien concepts in your interpretation of Foucault? What do you mean with "generative function"?


“The statement is not therefore a structure (that is, a group of relations between
variable elements, thus authorizing a possibly infinite number of concrete
models); it is a function of existence that properly belongs to signs and on
the basis of which one may then decide, through analysis or intuition,
whether or not they 'make sense', according to what rule they follow one
another or are juxtaposed, of what they are the sign, and what sort of act
A series of signs will become a statement on condition that it possesses 'something else'(which may be strangely similar to it, and almost identical as in the
example chosen), a specific relation that concerns itself- and not its cause,
or its elements. The subject of the statement should not be regarded as identical with the author of the formulation - either in substance, or in function. He is
not in fact the cause, origin, or starting point of the phenomenon of the
written or spoken articulation of a sentence; nor is it that meaningful intention
which, silently anticipating words, orders them like the visible
body of its intuition; it is not the constant, motionless, unchanging focus
of a series of operations that are manifested, in turn, on the surface of discourse
through the statements. It is a particular, vacant place that may in
fact be filled by different individuals; but, instead of being defined once
and for all, and maintaining itself as such throughout a text, a book, or an
oeuvre, this place varies - or rather it is variable enough to be able either to
persevere, unchanging, through several sentences, or to alter with each
one. It is a dimension that characterizes a whole formulation qua statement.
It is one of the characteristics proper to the enunciative function and
enables one to describe it.”
Foucault applies here terms of “a function of existence,” and of “the enunciative function.” He asserts that the statement is different from a logical proposition,
a meaningful phrase, or a speech-act. It is a general function of a few variables.
A statement entertains a few links with affiliated spaces of a discursive formation,
subjective positions, concepts, and material elements. His prominent example is AZERT. The meaningless group of letters, listed in a typewriting manual, becomes a statement of alphabetical order adopted by French typewriters. What makes it a statement is the repetition due to the power
that cannot be attributed to external causes or conditions. A statement defines itself
by establishing a specific link with ‘something else’ that lies on the same level as itself. A hidden repetition animates the statement. It is surprising that formally Foucault’s definition of the statement as the enunciating essential function is similar to what Derrida proposed as the fundamental iterability: “The iterability of an element divides its own identity a priory…It is because this iterability is differential, within each individual ‘element’ as well as between the ‘elements’, because it splits each element while constituting it, because it marks it with an articulatory break, it is a differential structure escaping the logic of presence”.
(Derrida, Limited Inc).
As well as differance, a statement is in itself a repetition, even if what it repeats is ’something else.’ Is there a fundamental difference? AZERT refers to the focal point of contemporary power relations, effectuating the typist’s fingers.

David Mo October 28, 2020 at 07:45 #465744
Reply to Number2018
I think that your answer doesn't match my question.
See this:

Generally speaking, one can say that a sentence or a
proposition - even when isolated, even divorced from the natural context
that could throw light on to its meaning, even freed or cut off from all the
elements to which, implicitly or not, it refers - always remains a sentence
or a proposition and can always be recognized as such .
On the other hand, the enunciative function - and this shows that it is
not simply a construction of previously existing elements - cannot
operate on a sentence or proposition in isolation. It is not enough to say a
sentence, it is not even enough to say it in a particular relation to a field of
objects or in a particular relation to a subject, for a statement to exist: it
must be related to a whole adjacent field . (AoK: 97)


Warn this: even when isolated, even divorced from the natural context that could throw light on to its meaning (!)

Here there is an implicit recognition (?) that context (could?) change the meaning of a statement. How can it be said that a statement can be recognized without an external context?

I have the impression that the same context of Foucault's oeuvre (sorry!) guided his speech. His confrontation with Marxism led him to reject the identification of the subject of the statement as psychologically (author) and socially (class) conditioned. Therefore, the discourse appears as a (relatively) autonomous entity. I say "relatively" because in some accidental statements these extralinguistic contexts appear as submarines and reflect an ambiguous and untenable position.


Moreover, in his historical writings - which I know better - these contexts, emphatically rejected on a theoretical level, emerge with force. For example, the discourse of the human sciences is reviewed in Discipline and Punish in the context of the struggle against marginalized groups in modernity. Without social marginality and power strategies linked to productivity, this scientific discourse would have a different enunciative sense. And these are relevant contexts.

In fact, Foucault does not reject contextual analysis. He only defends his concept of enunciative discourse as a prior analysis. A totally philosophical position. Very debatable.





Number2018 October 28, 2020 at 23:11 #465996
Reply to David Mo Quoting David Mo
See this:

Generally speaking, one can say that a sentence or a
proposition - even when isolated, even divorced from the natural context
that could throw light on to its meaning, even freed or cut off from all the
elements to which, implicitly or not, it refers - always remains a sentence
or a proposition and can always be recognized as such .
On the other hand, the enunciative function - and this shows that it is
not simply a construction of previously existing elements - cannot
operate on a sentence or proposition in isolation. It is not enough to say a
sentence, it is not even enough to say it in a particular relation to a field of
objects or in a particular relation to a subject, for a statement to exist: it
must be related to a whole adjacent field . (AoK: 97)

Warn this: even when isolated, even divorced from the natural context that could throw light on to its meaning (!)

Here there is an implicit recognition (?) that context (could?) change the meaning of a statement. How can it be said that a statement can be recognized without an external context?


I disagree.
"Generally speaking, one can say that a sentence or a
proposition - even when isolated, even divorced from the natural context
that could throw light on to its meaning, even freed or cut off from all the
elements to which, implicitly or not, it refers - always remains a sentence
or a proposition and can always be recognized as such ."
This 'means’ that we should avoid doing this: for Foucault, there is no ‘natural context’ that could ‘throw light on to statement’s meaning.’
"On the other hand, the enunciative function - and this shows that it is
not simply a construction of previously existing elements - cannot
operate on a sentence or proposition in isolation. It is not enough to say a
sentence, it is not even enough to say it in a particular relation to a field of
objects or in a particular relation to a subject, for a statement to exist: it
must be related to a whole adjacent field."
All right, for a statement to exist, the enunciative function relates the statement to a whole adjacent field. Yet, this relation, this link is not provided by the evident contextual circumstances. It is the essence of Foucault’s archeology: “the statement is neither visible nor hidden.” Therefore, the statement has to be disclosed, found out under the covering phrases and prepositions, behind their ‘natural’ meaning and logic. The surface, the ‘plinth,’ where the statements appear, must be discovered, polished, and even fashioned or invented. So, 'an external context' is primarily determined and chosen by the statement's formation, by its enunciative function. Foucault’s seemingly meaningless statement AZERT indicates his political and philosophical aim not to consider too meaningful, understandable, and recognizable texts and examples.

David Mo October 30, 2020 at 06:57 #466452
Quoting Number2018
This 'means’ that we should avoid doing this: for Foucault, there is no ‘natural context’ that could ‘throw light on to statement’s meaning.’

This seems to contradict this:

Lastly, what we have called 'discursive practice' can now be defined
more precisely. (...)it is a body of anonymous, historical rules, always determined
in the time and space that have defined a given period, and for a given
social, economic, geographical, or linguistic area, the conditions of
operation of the enunciative function. (AoK, III, 3: 117)


“Determined in time and space” in “a given period” and for “social, economic”, etc. "area", is what is usually understand as context.
Is it a real contradiction in Foucault or in your interpretation?

Quoting Number2018
the statement is neither visible nor hidden.


The paragraph you quote (AoK:108-9) only says that a statement is not an isolate linguistic fact with an "autonomous" existence. That it is "neither visible nor hidden" is a paradox that needs to be explained or it will remain confuse. In common language hidden and visible are an exclusive alternative.
As Foucault himself says, it is a "difficult to sustain" thesis. And so much so. I don't think it is possible unless it is specified that the statement is not visible in one sense and hidden in another.
In fact, Foucault recognizes that a statement can have different -even antagonistic- meanings. Are they not the "hidden" part of an apparent statement? No, according Foucault, because the statement is the same "in itself". In itself? What is the "itself" of a statement?

"It is the modality of existence of the verbal performance as it has taken place". (Ibid: 110).

I confess this definition is not evident in two senses:

First: What means the modality of existence of a statement which is independent of its different possible meanings?
Second: If this modality is not hidden, how is it not visible?

Maybe you can explain this.
David Mo October 30, 2020 at 07:20 #466457
I think that in order to know where Foucault is going the following two texts are interesting:

Another reason: the 'signifying' structure of language (Iangage) always
refers back to something else; objects are designated by it; meaning is in­
tended by it; the subject is referred back to it by a number of signs even if
he is not himself present in them. Language always seems to be inhabited
by the other, the elsewhere, the distant; it is hollowed by absence. Is it not
the locus in which something other than itself appears, does not its own
existence seem to be dissipated in this function? But if one wishes to des­
cribe the enunciative level, one must consider that existence itself;
question language, not in the direction to which it refers, but in the
dimension that gives it; ignore its power to designate, to name, to show, to
reveal, to be the place of meaning or truth, and, instead, turn one's
attention to the moment - which is at once solidified, caught up in the
play of the 'signifier' and the 'signified' - that determines its unique and
limited existence. In the examination of language, one must suspend, not
only the point of view of the 'signified' (we are used to this by now), but
also that of the 'signifier', and so reveal the fact that, here and there, in
relation to possible domains of objects and subjects, in relation to other
possible formulations and re-uses, there is language. (AoK:111)


A system must be understood as a set of relationships that are maintained and transformed independently of the things that link them together. It has been shown, for example, that Roman, Scandinavian and Celtic myths make very different gods and heroes appear, but that the organisation that links them, their hierarchies, their rivalries, their betrayals, their contracts, their adventures obeyed (in cultures that ignored each other) a single system. Recent discoveries in prehistoric times also show that a systematic organisation presides over the arrangement of the figures drawn on the walls of the caves. In biology, it is known that in the chromosomal material are encoded, as a coded message, all the genetic indications that will allow the development of the future being. Lacan's importance lies in the fact that he showed that it is the structures, the language system itself - and not the subject - that speak through the discourse of the patient and the symptoms of his neurosis. Before any human existence, before any human thought, there would already be a knowledge, a system that we rediscovered (Michel Foucault. Interview with Madeleine Chapsal : La Quinzaine littéraire, No. 5, 16 May 1966, pp. 14-15) Translation is mine.


I would like to comment on them if you find them interesting as well.
Banno October 30, 2020 at 22:07 #466657
I suspect this thread is what happens when one's diet is solely tertiary texts.
Number2018 October 30, 2020 at 23:44 #466691
Reply to David Mo Reply to David Mo Quoting David Mo
I would like to comment on them if you find them interesting as well.


Yes, of course.

Quoting David Mo
That it is "neither visible nor hidden" is a paradox that needs to be explained or it will remain confuse. In common language hidden and visible are an exclusive alternative.

The statement is not hidden (in Foucault's sense) if we do not need to look for a hidden meaning, to interpret it according to a founding transcendental principle. 'Not visible' means
that we should not look for an apparent logical or grammatical structure. Foucault opposes here the two principal techniques: formalization and interpretation.

Quoting David Mo
according Foucault, because the statement is the same "in itself". In itself? What is the "itself" of a statement?

‘The statement is the same in itself,’ is the essence of Foucault’s archaeology. The primary criterion for the existence of ‘the statement in itself” is the manifestation of its repetition, or, more precisely, its inherent variation. The statement repeats itself due to its ’regularity,’ its enunciative function. Does Foucault succeed in avoiding a pure metaphysical founding of the statement existence? And how his method is different from an empirical contextual analysis?Foucault always starts with a limited corpus of linguistic datum. As his later works showed, the chosen datum is operated by and exposes the enunciative function inherent to a field of particular power relations. For example, in "The will to power," the discursive formation of various verbal performances of ''sexuality'' is not hidden nor visible. The statement reflects the intensification and the function of the power relations in our society. It is disclosed, and found out under the chosen phrases and prepositions, behind their ''natural'' meaning and logic. Therefore, the 'initial' meaning becomes transformed.
That should clarify your question
Quoting David Mo
What means the modality of existence of a statement which is independent of its different possible meanings?


The surface where the statements appear is discovered and even invented. Likely, Foucault's originality lies in the way he immerses himself into the field of contemporary forces. That is why he refers to '’the foreign element”,” something else'' that lies at the same level as the statement itself. The repetition, the variation of the statement, is maintained by exterior, unrecognizable forces. The speaker may not recognize it, and she becomes ''one'', or ''non-person''. To give a place to "the statement in itself," Foucault eliminates, erases himself as the author of his text. He replaces himself with the anonymous '' murmuring'' of discourse: “Must we admit that the time of discourse is not the time of consciousness extrapolated to the dimensions of history, or the time of history present in the form of consciousness? Must I suppose that in my discourse I have no survival? In speaking I am not banishing my death, but actually establishing it; rather I am abolishing all interiority in that exterior that is so indifferent to my life, and so neutral, that it makes no distinction between my life and my death.”

David Mo October 31, 2020 at 07:53 #466761
Quoting Number2018
The statement is not hidden (in Foucault's sense)

Quoting Number2018
For example, in "The will to power," the discursive formation of various verbal performances of ''sexuality'' is not hidden nor visible.

Indeed, Foucault gives a very particular meaning to "visible" and "hidden". I don't think your interpretation makes much sense. Rather, you have to read this:

Although the statement cannot be hidden, it is not visible either; it is
not presented to the perception as the manifest bearer of its limits and
characteristics. It requires a certain change of viewpoint and attitude to be
recognized and examined in itself Perhaps it is like the over-familiar that
constantly eludes one; those familiar transparencies, which, although they
conceal nothing in their density, are nevertheless not entirely clear. The
enunciative level emerges in its very proximity. (AoK:110)


That is to say, we must not believe that the meaning of a discourse is something evident in the explicit sense of it, nor hidden in the sense of its secondary meanings, whether of a social or psychic order. There is not a reason to find it in class ideology -Marxism- or in the libido and its symbolism -psychoanalysis. The meaning of discourse, however, is hidden, in the common sense of the word, because it is so manifest -in the common sense of the word- that it is so visible that we do not see it. We need to adopt Foucault's (post?) structuralist method that reveals a system behind the words to recognize it. It would be enough to change our perspective to say "Come on! It was this and not that!" Too simplistic an explanation in my opinion. When we see what we didn't see because it was too familiar, we intuitively go for it. This is not the case with Foucaulian theory, which seems and is quite debatable.


Quoting Number2018
The primary criterion for the existence of ‘the statement in itself” is the manifestation of its repetition, or, more precisely, its inherent variation.


Quoting Number2018
Does Foucault succeed in avoiding a pure metaphysical founding of the statement existence?


Quoting Number2018
And how his method is different from an empirical contextual analysis?


I believe that Foucault is going directly to a post-structuralist and clearly metaphysical concept of structure ("system"). This is partly due to his gratuitous elimination of the role of the subject in the creation of discourse. This makes discourse an entity that directs me like a talking automaton, due to structural laws that do not seem to have their justification in the empirical, but in a very diffuse concept. It is enough to see the way in which he dissociates the discursive structure from the semantic and contextual content in the first text I have placed above.

He compels us to question language, in the “dimension” that gives it; turn one's attention to the “moment” that determines its unique and limited existence.To replace more or less precise concepts such as reference, meaning or truth with other nebulous ones such as moment, solidification or direction is to take us to the terrain of the typical confusion of post-rationalist metaphysics that is so comfortable in post-modernism.

The postulation of a "knowledge" prior to humanity in the amoebas and DNA already goes directly to mysticism. But I don't have time now to talk about this. I would like to do so.


Quoting Number2018
I am abolishing all interiority in that exterior that is so indifferent to my life, and so neutral, that it makes no distinction between my life and my death


Quoting Number2018
It is disclosed, and found out under the chosen phrases and prepositions, behind their ''natural'' meaning and logic. Therefore, the 'initial' meaning becomes transformed.

Are these quotes from Focuault or your interpretation?
David Mo October 31, 2020 at 07:55 #466762
Quoting Banno
I suspect this thread is what happens when one's diet is solely tertiary texts.


Do you have a first-hand interpretation or do you talk for talking's sake?