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For what reasons should we despise racism?

telex September 15, 2020 at 20:59 8050 views 52 comments
You could say that, unquestionably, racism is one of the hottest issues of 2020.

Let's dissect it philosophically, if we can :)

Let's start with the most basic and move outwards. If I miss anything, please post it in the comments below.

1) Racism is bad, because it hurts blacks and minorities - physically and emotionally. (if you believe white people can be included, please say your response. I will probably only direct these points at blacks and minorities).

2) Racism places blacks and minorities in worse off social, educational, and economic situations.

3) Racism creates a hostile, dangerous, and drug ridden environment.

4) Racism creates a poor environment for young girls, leading to domestic violence and prostitution.

5) Racism bars blacks and minorities from entering well-off areas like better jobs, healthcare, education, and housing.

6) Racism teaches whites to be socially degenerate. It encourages whites to become violent, hateful, mistrustful, leading to an overall social decline in society.

7) Racism prevents intelligent blacks and minorities from contributing to the arts, sciences, technology, literary, and other fields.

8) Racism suggests that blacks, who make up only 13% of the population, are responsible for a lot of problems in the United States, including crime, violence, and social degeneracy.

9) Racism teaches us that one race is superior to another, simply because that race has certain qualities not found in another race. For example, the quality of lighter skin.

10) Racism causes cultural wars, leading to some kind of a civil war.

---------------------------------------

So how do we approach racism? For what reasons should we stop being racist?

I guess one could say that the reason we should stop being racist is for some or all of the reasons above. In general, racism hurts a lot of people. But there is a problem here. We don't actually know that the external world exists. So when someone says the N word, a person could say that they are dreaming and has uttered the N word in his dream. So why should they stop uttering the N word, if they have no real reason to believe they are hurting anyone.

For this reason, I believe only a solipsism-tian argument will suffice against racism.

But what would an extreme solipsism-ist say? Perhaps they would say that they don't believe they are hurting anyone by being racist. However, even if I am not hurting anyone by being racist, I should still not be a racist because it will help me develop good moral qualities or a better mind. In other words, I only know that my mind exists, therefore, I should perfect it. Being racist would mean a less perfect mind. Therefore, I should be a non-racist to achieve a more perfect mind. (for example, I wouldn't hurt any other living creature, like a parrot, just because it possessed different physical and mental qualities)

What do you guys/gals think of this argument? Do we actually "truly" know that we are hurting anyone in the external world by being racist? Even if the external world hurt us back, like a black guy punching you in the face for calling him the N word, we still can't be sure if it's just an illusion. Albeit, it would still hurt.

Perhaps avoiding pain is another good argument for not being racist. Like a black guy punching you in the face or maybe even a more serious injury.

I guess the other argument is: even if the world is just an illusion, that doesn't mean I'd jump from a skyscraper, because based on my previous sensory experience, I know that would hurt.

However, here we can resort to Hume-ean doubt, that the past gives no indication of the future. So technically, again, one could say that uttering the N word in front of a black guy does not necessarily mean that I would experience pain. Nonetheless, even a solipsism-ist would experience the paradox of avoiding extreme pain in the external world. However, in an absolute abstract sense that disregards our extreme fear of pain, the Hume-ean argument would hold, i think.

For these reasons, I think we are left solely with a solipsism-tian argument for not being racist.

Comments? Thoughts?

I understand that this is a hot issue, so there may be a lot of negativity about my thread, which is fine.

Comments (52)

Deleted User September 15, 2020 at 21:20 #452503
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 21:21 #452506
Quoting telex
I understand that this is a hot issue, so there maybe a lot of negativity about my thread, which is fine.


Are you admitting that the topic is designed to troll?
telex September 15, 2020 at 21:24 #452509
Reply to tim wood

That's a good point, but I'm considering this from a solipsism perspective.
telex September 15, 2020 at 21:25 #452511
Reply to praxis

No, I'm not trying to troll.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 21:35 #452520
Quoting telex
No, I'm not trying to troll.


You knowingly designed an OP that you believed may produce "a lot of negativity." Why would you do that if not to troll?
telex September 15, 2020 at 21:40 #452523
Reply to praxis

This is not designed to troll. It's an application of Cartesian and Solipsism-tian doubt to the issue of racism. (and Hume-ean doubt)
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:30 #452567
Reply to telex

If you say so. In any case, there’s no reason that couldn’t be done in a way that would not produce “a lot of negativity,” as you say. But you’ve deliberately chosen to present it in a way that you believe will produce a lot of negativity. There is only one explanation for why you would do this, and the fact that you have no other explanation further supports the regrettable conclusion.
telex September 15, 2020 at 22:32 #452570
Reply to praxis

I did not design this discussion to troll.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:37 #452573
Reply to telex

Perhaps it’s your habit then. Will you admit that much?
telex September 15, 2020 at 22:41 #452577
Reply to praxis

I appreciate you replying to my thread, but all I can say to your comment is I did not design this to troll.
DingoJones September 15, 2020 at 22:41 #452578
Reply to praxis

Your the one trolling this thread you puttz.
Why dont you ask him how many times he beats his wife a day while youre at it.
You are poison to discourse.
telex September 15, 2020 at 22:43 #452580
Reply to DingoJones

That's fine DingoJones. I still appreciate Praxis reply.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:46 #452583
Reply to DingoJones

I notice you haven’t addressed the topic whatsoever. Too tired after beating your wife, perhaps?
telex September 15, 2020 at 22:49 #452587
Reply to praxis

I'm sure no one here beats their wife. There's no reason to start fighting like this.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:50 #452589
Reply to telex

Okay then, we’ll chalk it up to habit. That established, there’s no reason for you not to edit the OP in order to make it less likely to produce a lot of negativity and more likely to produce whatever it is that you intended it to produce.
telex September 15, 2020 at 22:52 #452591
Reply to praxis

I appreciate your response praxis, but again the only thing I will say to this is I did not design this to troll.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:53 #452592
Quoting telex
I'm sure no one here beats their wife.


How do you know? Dingo brought it up, maybe he’s projecting.
praxis September 15, 2020 at 22:58 #452594
Quoting telex
I appreciate your response praxis, but again the only thing I will say to this is I did not design this to troll.


You appear to be saying that you’re unwilling to edit the OP in order to be less negativity producing.
telex September 15, 2020 at 23:00 #452596
Reply to praxis

At this time, I will not be editing the OP. Again, the only thing I will say is I did not design this to troll. And I don't believe we should suspect Dingo of any kind of domestic abuse :)
BC September 15, 2020 at 23:20 #452610
Quoting telex
1) "Racism is bad" the old troll who lives under the bridge said.

So rumor has it.

Sticks and stones can break their bones but words can not harm them.

2) Racism places blacks and minorities in worse off social, educational, and economic situations.

Yes, and its a classic chicken and egg problem.

3) Racism creates a hostile, dangerous, and drug ridden environment.

No, it's drug dealers enforcing drug deals with guns and pimps preying on poor women that does all that.

4) Racism creates a poor environment for young girls, leading to domestic violence and prostitution.

We do not see the connection. Perhaps you were thinking of some other 'ism'?

5) Racism bars blacks and minorities from entering well-off areas like better housing.

As well it should. There are reasons for those guarded gates. The better to keep poor minorities out.

6) Racism teaches whites to be socially degenerate. It encourages whites to become violent, hateful, mistrustful, leading to an overall social decline in society.

This is nonsense. We Supreme Whites don't need to be racist, violent, hateful, mistrustful, or anything of the kind. Since we are the superiors at the top by natural right, we can afford to be magnanimously tolerant of the billions of riffraff we must endure. Plus, we regularly offer them the generous hand of reasonably priced goods and services so that they may improve themselves, be more like us, and less like themselves. If they don't avail themselves of the opportunity, whose fault is that?

7) Racism prevents intelligent blacks and minorities from contributing to the arts, sciences, technology, literary, and other fields.

Humbug. I just read that "Kanye West Declares Himself ‘New Moses,’ Says He Won’t Release New Music Till Freed From Universal and Sony/ATV Deals". New Moses, he says. Well, we all know Moses was barred from entering the Promised Land. Moses didn't get on the ballot in Wisconsin, either. He didn't get his application in on time. So... tough. Why would anybody vote for him? I knew President Obama and Kanye West is no Obama!!!

8) Racism suggests that blacks, who make up only 13% of the population, are responsible for a lot of problems in the United States, including crime, violence, and social degeneracy.

Suggests? how about PROCLAIMS.

9) Racism teaches us that one race is superior to another, simply because that race has certain qualities not found in another race.

And there you should rest your case.

10) Racism causes cultural wars, leading to some kind of a civil war.

#9 was your last good point. Just strike #10.

---------------------------------------

So how do we approach racism? For what reasons should we stop being racist?


We should certainly stop being racist for the wrong reasons.

telex September 15, 2020 at 23:24 #452616
Reply to Bitter Crank

Thank you for your response Bitter Crank, but how would you consider Cartesian, Solipsism-tian, and Hume-ean ideas applied to this? Or let me add this, you believe that applying these principles will cause us to be not-racist for the wrong reasons. But aren't these principles the bedrock of philosophy and we are on a philosophical forum?
BC September 15, 2020 at 23:32 #452623
Reply to telex True, but I no longer enter into discussions of racism with serious intent. Of course racism is a problem, but what most people have to say are shallow knee-jerk clichés.
telex September 15, 2020 at 23:36 #452624
Reply to Bitter Crank

Ok, thanks for your comments :) ... good or bad
Valentinus September 15, 2020 at 23:36 #452625
Reply to telex
uQuoting telex
We don't actually know that the external world exists. So when someone says the N word, a person could say that they are dreaming and has uttered the N word in his dream. So why should they stop uttering the N word, if they have no real reason to believe they are hurting anyone.


So, I am being asked to object to an objection to using certain language while also doubting the reality of what I perceive?

If the latter is the case, the former is meaningless.
telex September 15, 2020 at 23:41 #452627
Reply to Valentinus

Perhaps a solipsism-ist in this sense is still bound to their sense organs from which sense data can be gathered, like the use of a certain language. Perhaps it's an example that can be used, while itself may be meaningless, but nonetheless, can be used to express a point.
Valentinus September 15, 2020 at 23:48 #452628
Your original comments are directed at a "real" world. I don't see how your latest reply relates to your narrative.
telex September 15, 2020 at 23:50 #452629
Reply to Valentinus

That is the "sense data" we gathered from what we "perceive" to be a "real world." So, perhaps it's an example that can be used, while itself may be meaningless, but nonetheless, can be used to express a point
Valentinus September 15, 2020 at 23:57 #452630
I was referring to the examples of racism that you provided. They all are expressed from the point of view of why the "white" thing should be criticized or not.
If you want to argue about matters on those terms, you should own them.
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:01 #452631
Reply to Valentinus

Those matters cannot be owned, because as Descartes pointed out, an Evil Genius can deceive us about any or all of our sensory experience. However, even though this data may be meaningless, it can, nonetheless, be used to illustrate a point.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:14 #452635
Descartes was saying the opposite of your point of view. Why would any agent bother making us stupid on purpose? We are pretty stupid out of the box.

You are not owning the presumptions of your list of why people are racists. This Cartesian stuff is just a sideshow to your own deficits.
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:20 #452637
Reply to Valentinus

Descartes later-meditations, after the Evil Genius hypothesis, in those he does reach the idea that God is good and would not deceive him or us. However, I believe the central thesis to this is the Evil Genius. He provides no real argument for a good God, in my opinion. The Evil Genius is the real point here, that we cannot trust our senses.

I cannot own the presumptions on my list, because the sense data we receive from the external world can be highly doubted. The Cartesian stuff is not a sideshow, but a necessary doubt in philosophy. I cannot call these deficits, if they're true ideas of philosophy.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:26 #452638
I understand that position. But how does that relate to observations about race? How could anybody say anything about race if you don't believe your own eyes' and ears'
reports of what is going on around you?
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:27 #452639
However, even though this data may be meaningless, it can, nonetheless, be used to illustrate a point.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:28 #452640
What is the data again?
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:29 #452641
Reply to Valentinus

Using our 'sense organs,' we gather 'sense data' from the "perceived" external world.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:30 #452642
You are a bot.
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:31 #452644
I am a human. "I think, therefore, I am!"
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:34 #452645
You abandoned your original argument.
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:36 #452646
Reply to Valentinus

It doesn't seem like that to me. Nonetheless, I appreciate your comments.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:45 #452647
You can't argue that race issues are a collection of opinions as you have done while also wondering if we can perceive what is real or not.
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:46 #452649
Reply to Valentinus

This same line applies here: However, even though this data may be meaningless, it can, nonetheless, be used to illustrate a point.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:48 #452650
Reply to telex

What is "here"? What is a "point"?
telex September 16, 2020 at 00:48 #452651
Reply to Valentinus

"Here" is your post.
"Point" is the discussion.
Valentinus September 16, 2020 at 00:57 #452653
But we were talking about what you said first. You were wondering about how the language about race became a thing.
Do you renounce that part or want to argue for something from that point of view?
telex September 16, 2020 at 01:03 #452654
Reply to Valentinus

The language about race can be considered "sense data" from the external world. The premise or premises do not imply any belief about the external world, until we reach the final conclusion. It's all one point of view, no matter how real the external world may seem!
praxis September 16, 2020 at 01:23 #452659
Quoting Bitter Crank
We should certainly stop being racist for the wrong reasons.


Many are racist for the wrong reasons, because they’re ignorant. The right reason is that it offers an advantage or privileged position, simply. Holding that position requires subduing our moral sense of fairness, caring, liberty, and others.

Ignorant people can’t believe that they’re morally deficient so their cognitive dissonance is resolved in believing that the object of their subjugation is inherently bad or evil, and their prejudice deepens and becomes malignantly maladaptive to themselves as well as others.

So I suppose that only a sociopath can be racist for the right reason.

Quoting telex
... illustrate a point.


What the point? (if not to troll)
telex September 16, 2020 at 01:26 #452660
Reply to praxis

The point here is about the solipsism-ist argument from the OP.
praxis September 16, 2020 at 01:28 #452661
Reply to telex

And the point is?
telex September 16, 2020 at 01:31 #452664
Reply to praxis

It's all in the OP. It delves from Cartesian doubt about the external world, to Hume-ean skepticism, and finally arriving at a solipsism-ist position. Quoting just one line does no justice to the entire OP.
A Ree Zen September 16, 2020 at 01:41 #452666
Reply to telex If you subscribe to the notion that the self is all that can be known to exist, that does not mean that in fact nothing else exists. Beyond the certainty of the existence of the self, we possess reasonable beliefs of various degrees of certainty regarding the existence of other things. We need these beliefs to reasonable make the most of our existence.

Obviously we judge people by the way they look. It is probably a throwback in our genes to the days when our ancestors lived in small groups and had to be wary of other groups. For whatever my past experiences are, I have become wary of people who hold certain expressions on their face. I still will reserve judgment until they actually engage in behavior, but my guard goes up and down by the way a person carries themselves. It is obvious that I would engage in seriously fundamental and possibly dangerous error if I judge someone by the color of their skin, eyes or hair.

If you look up "race" in Wikipedia the article indicates that the genetic differences between races are less than variations within a so-called race. I have also noticed this in my everyday life, and to a certain extent, I tend to believe that we are all, on average, equally different and similar members of the one race (human race). The power of the human is not in how they look, it is how they think. I like this forum because it illustrates people's thoughts. I have no idea what race any one here would be ascribed. I can only tell whether you wrote something smart or not.

We should despise racism because it is intellectually wrong and faulty.
telex September 16, 2020 at 01:49 #452667
Reply to A Ree Zen

That is true. Something external must exist. Somewhere there is a real world. However, this world could only be an illusion. The other problem is, if we do wake up in another world, we may never know if it's the real world or not. No matter what world we travel too, we may never know if it's the real world or simply another illusion.

While we may "believe" that we hold reasonable beliefs about the external world, our senses can always deceive us. Of course, we may draw examples from "that" "perceived" external world, to fuel our thoughts for thinking.

The truest form of thoughts would or may reside in idealism. What is ultimately true. Our moral beliefs may also be grounded in idealism, if we can think of "abstract" examples to which we can express our moral thoughts on.

(thank you for your comment, whether or not you think I wrote something smart or not)



praxis September 16, 2020 at 01:59 #452668
Reply to telex

You claimed that there’s a point but are apparently unable to find one.