Can a "Purpose" exist without consciousness?

Quoting Ash Abadear

The question is whether "Purpose" can exist in any other form, other than a thought.

Yeah, but not if you define purpose as:

Quoting Ash Abadear

a thing which we commonly refer to as a thought or idea that desires or drives action.

But wouldn’t you agree that hammers have purposes? And they certainly aren’t capable of thought...

I guess thinking hammers aren't possible, but if they could, I wonder if they would be happy with their lot in life. I agree that a hammer has a purpose to us in the here and now because we exist. But if thinking beings cease to exist, wouldn't the hammer cease to have a purpose, and be just a collection of atoms, subject only to purely mechanical forces of nature?

Quoting Pinprick

...wouldn’t you agree that hammers have purposes?

Nah. Hammers do not have purposes. They are used for our purposes. Having a purpose could be rendered as aiming to do something or other in particualr. Hammers do not aim to do anything.

Quoting Ash Abadear

But if thinking beings cease to exist, wouldn't the hammer cease to have a purpose, and be just a collection of atoms, subject only to purely mechanical forces of nature?

Yes, as would everything else.

Quoting creativesoul

Nah. Hammers do not have purposes. They are used for our purposes. Having a purpose could be rendered as aiming to do something or other in particualr. Hammers do not aim to do anything.

I guess that’s right. People give things, and sometimes people, purpose according to their needs and intentions.

It's probably the reverse. Consciousness cannot exist without purpose. Whereas purpose without its phenomenal counterpart can exist within nature and our machines.

Reply to Forgottenticket "Whereas purpose without its phenomenal counterpart can exist within nature and our machines." How would you say a purpose exists in Nature without a consciousness being aware of it?

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Reply to creativesoulReply to Pinprick If Purpose can not exist without a consciousness, did the universe not have any purpose before consciousness emerged?

Quoting Ash Abadear

How would you say a purpose exists in Nature

The liver's purpose is to produce bile but it is absent of phenomenal thought. We still discover functions of our organs to this day. It may also be true that conscious thought has further functions beyond what we know.

I think purpose in the world is in the eye of the beholder; purpose in ourselves we must strive for. Hume would agree

Quoting Ash Abadear

If Purpose can not exist without a consciousness, did the universe not have any purpose before consciousness emerged?

I don’t believe the universe has any purpose now, even with the existence of consciousness. At least not in any objective sense of the word. So, no. For me, “purpose” is entirely subjective, as it depends on consciousness.

Quoting Ash Abadear

So that we are all on the same page, we need to define "purpose" and "consciousness" to answer this question. "Consciousness," is defined herein is that quality that you, the reader, has and that forms your belief that you exist. "Purpose" is defined as a thing which we commonly refer to as a thought or idea that desires or drives action. The question is whether "Purpose" can exist in any other form, other than a thought.

Thanks for posting this. I just added this to my journal. I suppose the answer is according to you that the two are very closely related as opposed to loosely related.

Purpose can be defined as any action a person takes to achieve a goal they have in mind. I employed a frying pan for a certain short-term purpose that I had (having a meal). Afterward, I exercised my body to achieve a longer-term purpose - staying healthy. I worked at my job for certain purposes, etc.

When a being is capable of experiencing the notion of planning something and seeing it to fruition, a valid purpose or meaning to their life is experienced and thus exists, even if it is only relevant to the being thinking it. For Example, if a Creator created an ant colony to dig through his soil and make it fertile, an individual ant may see its individual purpose as carrying a single grain of sand from point A to point B. If the ant experienced the idea of planning to carry the grain of sand from one spot to another, and then finishes it, is it possible to say the ant was wrong about its purpose? Isn't any plan that comes to fruition a correct interpretation of a purpose of one’s life.

If a Creator created humans with a purpose, I don't think that means that purposes contemplated by individual humans never exist. If a Creator never existed, would the greatness or superiority of one purpose over another be dependent on the intelligence of the being who contemplates it? Who could judge?

"Can a "Purpose" exist without consciousness?"

"Purpose" is a word created and used by man to demarcate that which he finds to have value, that which is valuable to him. This is not a profound question, the answer is swiftly, and absolutely, no. The question is merely an abstract game one deems to play with themselves and others.

Why havent animals been mentioned? Lions purpose is to provide for their pack. I cant provide if they have conscious thought but this question makes it so if they don't, then its a process more like our livers creating bile except extremely complex but in a sense 'dead'. If they are conscious then that just help guarantee that anything organic able act out of uniform is a conscious being in one manner or another.

Can a "purpose" exist without consciousness?

Unconsciousness can give you more purposes than being conscious could ever give you.

Quoting Ash Abadear

So that we are all on the same page, we need to define "purpose" and "consciousness" to answer this question. "Consciousness," is defined herein is that quality that you, the reader, has and that forms your belief that you exist. "Purpose" is defined as a thing which we commonly refer to as a thought or idea that desires or drives action. The question is whether "Purpose" can exist in any other form, other than a thought.

Purpose is meaning attributed to existence - including life, being, activity, object, etc. Meaning is a relational property of anything that ‘matters’. Purpose is therefore a property of any meaningful relation. This ‘thought or idea that desires or drives action’ is one process of attributing meaning, of judging purposiveness, but is not the only process by which this occurs.

So, yes - purpose can exist without consciousness - just not in the form of ‘thought’ or ‘idea’, not even as a ‘thing’. Without consciousness, purpose is not even a question - there would be no awareness of any relation without purpose. Either a meaningful interaction occurs, or no relation exists.

The question is more ‘without consciousness, can a life, being, activity or object even lack purpose?’

Reply to JerseyFlight So I'm inclined to believe that purpose can not exist without consciousness. The bigger question that I'm getting at is: Did the Universe exist without a purpose before consciousness emerged?