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Does Santa Drive A Helicopter?

creativesoul August 15, 2020 at 05:15 7250 views 32 comments
This thread is the result of another poster's addition to a thread about something completely different, but I suspect some very interesting discussion could result. It eventually boils down to the question of whether or not Santa exists, and/or exactly how so, or in what sense, or way?

For myself, I'm leaning strongly towards an emphatic "No! Santa does not drive a helicopter" in addition to an equally emphatic...

Santa Claus is a very well-known character in a story that has long since transcended the original storyteller. In doing so, the meaning of the story has evolved accordingly by virtue of retaining, losing, and gaining meaning during each re-telling. In that story, Santa Claus does not fly around in a helicopter delivering toys on Christmas Eve... not yet anyway.

That which does not exist cannot change. Santa has. Santa exists and does not fly around in a helicopter.

:eyes:

Comments (32)

creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:07 #443353
No takers?

Surely someone here would argue that Santa Claus does not exist.
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:09 #443356
Couldn't you write a kid's story in which the reindeer have to socially isolate, and hence can't be put in harness, forcing Sant to us a helicopter?

Quoting creativesoul
That which does not exist cannot change.


That's not so.
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:10 #443357
Quoting Banno
That which does not exist cannot change.
— creativesoul

That's not so.


Elaborate?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:13 #443358
Reply to creativesoul Well, Santa started using a helicopter...
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:14 #443359
So things that do not exist drive helicopters?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:16 #443362
Reply to creativesoul Yep. Helicopters that also do not exist.
Gregory August 16, 2020 at 00:17 #443363
Reply to creativesoul

I would think that things come from potential to actual. Some call potential nothing. Maybe it's kind of a hybrid of something and nothing, and something falls away from the nothing and walla a big bang
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:18 #443364
Reply to Banno

Is that a modus tollens?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:19 #443366
Reply to Gregory There's a potential Santa?
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:21 #443367
Reply to Banno

Does the story exist? If the story exists, and Santa is a part of that story, then...

Help me out here.

How does something that does not exist... change?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:23 #443370
Reply to creativesoul
It's more about domains of discourse. Look to the contexts.
Gregory August 16, 2020 at 00:28 #443372
Reply to Banno

Santa lives at least with vegetable level life in many peoples psyches. I don't know exactly how potential becomes actual
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:30 #443375
Quoting Gregory
Santa lives at least with vegetable level life in many peoples psyches.


That looks a bit off to my eye. Can I have some Santa seedlings?

creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:34 #443378
Quoting Banno
It's more about domains of discourse. Look to the contexts.


Domains of discourse?

Care to flesh it out a bit?

Do they exist?
Gregory August 16, 2020 at 00:39 #443380
I meant "vegetable" in the sense that Augustine said a child is in a vegetable state in the first trimester . Santa can't grow beyond that in our consciousness, neither can God or Krishna. At least not from that route
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:45 #443383
Reply to Gregory That's just too far off centre for me to consider. Modality looks a much more productive approach.
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:45 #443384
Quoting creativesoul
Do they exist?


You are having a lend.
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:48 #443386
Reply to Banno

Not following...

How does something that does not exist... change?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:49 #443387
Reply to creativesoul But I gave you the helicopter example.

Like that.
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:53 #443388
So, things that do not exist change by virtue of doing things with other things that do not exist?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 00:58 #443391
Reply to creativesoul

Not quite.

If you asked Santa if Rudolf exists, what would be his answer?
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 00:59 #443392
Can't ask Santa a question. He is a character in a story.

Gregory August 16, 2020 at 01:01 #443393
When I hear songs like Christmas Memories, I know for sure the past exists. But at the same time I know for a fact that only the present exists. I don't struggle with this paradox. I lot of people say on this forum that something either exists or it doesnt. Ive been looking at this thread from a Jungian Heidegarrian angle and I am not sure being is discreetly one way
Banno August 16, 2020 at 01:04 #443394
Reply to creativesoul

I learned a new word today: Pettifogger.

Suppose one of the elves, taking a metaphysical turn, asked Santa if Rudolf exists...
Banno August 16, 2020 at 01:04 #443395
Reply to Gregory That's better. I can go along with that.
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 01:06 #443398
Reply to Banno

I just thought the aspect of change was interesting.

It seemed common sense to me. Something that does not exist cannot change. You've simply taken the opposing view that something that does not exist can change.

We are both faced with explaining what that change amounts to and/or consists in. As a result, it seems to me that Santa exists, as a character in a story, and stories change...

For you however... I'm left wondering.

Domains of discourse...

Could you explain how invoking them helps out?
Banno August 16, 2020 at 01:07 #443401
Reply to creativesoul The story about Santa is a domain of discourse.

To be is to be the subject of a predicate.

Predicates are predicated inside stories.

Predicates are predicated inside domains of discourse.
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 01:13 #443406
Reply to Banno

That's seems closer to what I'm arguing. How do you arrive at Santa does not exist from that?
creativesoul August 16, 2020 at 01:23 #443410
Not sure how to take the "pettifogger" comment.

Talk of existing and/or existence is fraught, perhaps?
Gregory August 16, 2020 at 06:42 #443464
Does red exist? Only kinda
Forgottenticket August 16, 2020 at 07:06 #443467
I think anything you make up can do anything you want it to. It can even break the principle of noncontradiction. In practice however...
bongo fury August 16, 2020 at 10:48 #443482
Quoting Banno
To be is to be the subject of a predicate.


If by "subject" you mean some thing the predicate is (maybe) true of, then fine. If you mean a phrase further along in the sentence, then you are megafogging.

Not saying Santa can't change, if he really wants.