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Medical experiments instead of death penalty or life imprisonment

Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 13:03 10650 views 55 comments
Modern medicine, drugs take like 10 years to be approved and the main issue is they take awhile before they reach human trials, however I propose instead of there being a life sentence or death penalty for prisoners we should perform medical experiments on them, the more medical trials we perform the lower their sentence.

Eg for every 5 trials they reduce your sentence by one year or something like that

So basically instead of life for murder you get like 40 years.. During those 40 years lots of experiments shall be done on you and eventually we'll end up saving more lives.

I'm talking all kinds of experiments like infecting the worst criminals with HIV then giving them experimental drugs or cancer via radiation and giving them experimental drugs.

Seems like a better use of prisoners than just killing them or letting them rot.. As well as a much better deterrent.

Not all prisoners should be experimented on, just the worst.

Comments (55)

Daniel July 04, 2020 at 13:52 #431536
Reply to Gitonga You should be experimented on for propositions like that.
Deleted User July 04, 2020 at 13:53 #431538
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Outlander July 04, 2020 at 14:00 #431539
Goes back to the capital punishment argument(s). One need only look at your avatar and see a famous case. Hm. Below this post too. Even today, not quite all the time but more often than we'd like to think, you have DNA exonerations and substantial settlements for the wrongly convicted. I'm sure the strictly worldly reasons why this probably should not happen are present.

It's hard to say if people are more easily manipulated or more prone to manipulate others. Eitherway you get people used to something that can be grievously abused the more likely it will be.
zookeeper July 04, 2020 at 14:05 #431542
Too prone to abuse, too irreversible when it turns out a prisoner was innocent after all, too unfair due to variability (some would have easier/worse experiments conducted on them than others).

Quoting Gitonga
Not all prisoners should be experimented on, just the worst.


Why not?
Mac July 04, 2020 at 14:29 #431551
There are a ton of consequences that I don't think have been taken into consideration here.
Outlander July 04, 2020 at 14:33 #431553
Now perhaps... and it still would be unthinkable to present to a truly innocent man in contrast to a nearly equally indeterminate normal sentence.. but what if... you could give the person a new identity. Complete with a past, memories, etc. That makes them for whatever reason subservient to a particular institution or function in society. By any and all apparent choice. Of course. Some will say that's getting off easy.
Wheatley July 04, 2020 at 14:35 #431554
Quoting Gitonga
I'm talking all kinds of experiments like infecting the worst criminals with HIV then giving them experimental drugs or cancer via radiation and giving them experimental drugs.

Seems like a better use of prisoners than just killing them or letting them rot.. As well as a much better deterrent.

Not all prisoners should be experimented on, just the worst.

Seems like you advocate Utalitarianism.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:36 #431555
Reply to Daniel Why I'm not a criminal?
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:39 #431557
Reply to zookeeper Well you said if it turns out the prisoner is innocent and I'm saying for example by the worst I mean gunmen who shot down people in broad daylight with tonnes of witnesses.

As for the other excuses you gave, why aren't you thinking more about the results? Like how many people we'll end up saving from cancer, HIV and various other diseases?
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:41 #431558
Quoting Wheatley
Sound like you advocate Utalitarianism.


Yes
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:42 #431559
Quoting tim wood
And I believe - no evidence in hand and subject to correction - that some prisoners can and do volunteer to be guinea pigs.


So are you agreeing with me?
Wheatley July 04, 2020 at 14:43 #431560
Reply to Gitonga Now you just have to get the approval of congress.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:46 #431561
Quoting Outlander
One need only look at your avatar and see a famous case


What does my Avatar have to do with it?

Quoting Outlander
DNA exonerations and substantial settlements for the wrongly convicted


Well I offer 2 solutions, 1 people could volunteer for the trials or 2 it could only be for those criminals that we're dead sure did it... Like tonnes of whiteness, footage, DNA etc, hec people who even admit to it.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:47 #431562
Reply to Mac No You're the one not taking into account the consequences of letting all the innocent people die from diseases that we could've cured by now.
Mac July 04, 2020 at 14:49 #431563
I just don't think that a prisoner should be considered a slave who's life is only defined as punishment for the atrocities they commited.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:52 #431564
Reply to Wheatley The long term political goal is to establish either a technocracy or Plato's Republic. To do this it starts by convincing one person at a time.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 14:56 #431566
Quoting Mac
I wasn't talking about that


I'm just saying you weigh the pros and the cons, the pros win.
Wheatley July 04, 2020 at 14:56 #431567
Reply to Gitonga
Good luck with that. :up:
Mac July 04, 2020 at 14:59 #431568
Reply to Gitonga once again, I just don't think that a prisoner should be considered a slave who's life is only defined by punishment for the atrocities they commited. No matter how egregious the crime.
Gitonga July 04, 2020 at 15:01 #431569
Reply to Mac isn't life imprisonment or capital punishment slavery?
Deleted User July 04, 2020 at 15:04 #431571
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Mac July 04, 2020 at 15:04 #431573
Reply to Gitonga Also a word of advice for using this forum; Remember that people here attack ideas, not the person who has the idea. This forum is made for ideas to be challenged. Defensiveness at people's criticism sends the message that you care more about being right than having good ideas.
Mac July 04, 2020 at 15:05 #431574
Reply to Gitonga Yes I would argue it is. Do you think we have a perfect justice system?
Frank Apisa July 04, 2020 at 17:26 #431643
Reply to Gitonga Not the most outrageous idea I've ever heard...although not fully baked. I could see asking for volunteers from individuals serving long sentences...with a reward commensurate with the degree of danger the person faces. (Certainly more than you proposed.)

The "volunteer" part has to be a must.

As for people erroneously convicted...life is not fair. If a "voluntary medical experiment" option were not available for those rightly convicted and those erroneously convicted...there would still be people both rightly and erroneously convicted serving sentences.

Yeah...not a horrible idea. Just needs a bit more baking.
Banno July 05, 2020 at 03:43 #431791
Reply to Gitonga You want all your medical experiments done on black folk?

(Too dark? You know its true.)
Gitonga July 05, 2020 at 11:04 #431894
Reply to Banno I said prisoners not black folk
Banno July 05, 2020 at 11:05 #431897
Reply to Gitonga Yeah, about that...
Gitonga July 05, 2020 at 11:05 #431898
Reply to Mac how am I being defensive, I'm merely countering your point
Gitonga July 05, 2020 at 11:06 #431899
Reply to Mac no the justice system isn't perfect but I don't see how this idea makes it less perfect
Gitonga July 05, 2020 at 11:07 #431901
Reply to Banno omg the world is soo much bigger than the United States you know...
Banno July 05, 2020 at 11:13 #431905
Reply to Gitonga Yeah. We have the same problem over here.
Frank Apisa July 05, 2020 at 13:58 #431937
Seems to me that if a criminal wants to earn time off his/her sentence by volunteering to test drugs or vaccines (or to help shorten the time for testing) it would be ethical on the part of the criminal, the government, and the medical community.

The question raised by Banno is a valid one...and troublesome. The only thing I can think of in mitigation, is that blacks and women appear to be shortchanged in medical research. If most of the experimenting is being done on blacks (I think that is overstating the case)...but if it is, they will gain the most benefit from the research.
Daniel July 05, 2020 at 15:13 #431955
Reply to Frank Apisa I do not think it would be ethical to take advantage of someone's desire to be free.
Frank Apisa July 05, 2020 at 16:42 #431974
Quoting Daniel
Daniel
119
?Frank Apisa I do not think it would be ethical to take advantage of someone's desire to be free.


You are free to think or not think whatever you want, Daniel.

A prisoner might think it to be an ethical bargain.

They should be free to think that.

Why not give them that opportunity? Both the prisoner and society would benefit.

Mac July 18, 2020 at 19:18 #435624
Reply to Gitonga Your idea makes the justice system "less perfect" by suggesting that rather than move toward eliminating the prison industrial complex, we utilize it to perform clinical trials on individuals against their will. It doesn't matter if they committed a number of egregious crimes, it is immoral to have slaves for any purpose. End of story. (Yes even if it saves lives). Experiments on the jews of the holocaust and the black slaves of the transatlantic trade led to great medical discoveries, but it should have never been done.
Azimuth July 18, 2020 at 19:34 #435631
Reply to Gitonga
I would loathe to meet a creature capable of employing these ideas. Is this what we want to become?
Gitonga July 21, 2020 at 14:05 #436287
Reply to Mac You think passivity is more moral? You're willing to let more people die just because you're not the one who pulls the trigger? How is more people dying a better solution? The funny thing is if such experiments were done we'd be closer to living in a utopia where no one would have to suffer or die from disease and we'd still be closer to ending the prison complex as an indirect result.

Ie less criminals due to family members dying of disease.

You can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs and you can't make progress without sacrifices.
Gitonga July 21, 2020 at 14:06 #436288
Reply to Azimuth I'd loath to meet a creature that let's others die due to disease
Gitonga July 21, 2020 at 14:07 #436289
Reply to Daniel they're criminals. Also, I don't think it's ethical to let innocent people die of diseases when more could be done to save them.
Outlander July 21, 2020 at 14:20 #436294
Reply to Gitonga

Oh hush. If you had one that didn't render you completely unable to function and needed something another had that would die as a result of not your taking of it but presence, long story short the thing you needed would be taken and death would occur.
Daniel July 21, 2020 at 15:01 #436302
Reply to Gitonga what are you doing to save them? what in the world gives you the moral right to put forward and defend such an evil proposition?
Mac July 21, 2020 at 22:40 #436410
Reply to Gitonga I'm not a hard utilitarian like you are. I think it's wrong to quantify the values of human life. Where there is death, I'd like there to be none, rather than less or some sick exchange of life. Another example of this situation could go like this: I can't just propose we use those in the 1% that are concentrating my nation's wealth as test subjects because I feel they must pay for their negative impact. I personally think the 1% are worse criminals than most murderers, but I can't honestly say one is truly better than the other, or that we should use low-lifes for experimentation. A life is a life. Just because you put a lower value on the life of and inmate doesn't make it right. An inmate is already serving their time or will be put to death. Prison and lethal injection are torture enough I think.
Outlander July 21, 2020 at 23:10 #436414
Quoting Mac
I think it's wrong to quantify the values of human life.


Because you're (presumably) a decent person. Know nothing of you personally but you more than likely had a tolerable upbringing and currently have a tolerable existence. Who knows what you'd be like if neither were true.

Quoting Mac
Where there is death, I'd like there to be none, rather than less or some sick exchange of life.


Embracing perfectionism and idealism is a sure way to end up with neither.

Quoting Mac
I can't just propose we use those in the 1% that are concentrating my nation's wealth as test subjects because I feel they must pay for their negative impact. I personally think the 1% are worse criminals than most murderers, but I can't honestly say one is truly better than the other, or that we should use low-lifes for experimentation.


Bruh we all use their systems. You're using one if not many more simultaneously now. You don't know for sure (though I will admit it's probably not unlikely) that all or even any of them aren't decent people who perhaps know more than you or I. So the guy who revolutionized the world (arguably for the better or worse) by inventing the computer or the iPhone shouldn't be rewarded for their works proportionally yet you or I should simply because we're not of the highest class? Which is virtual life imprisonment btw and total removal from society. You can't really go anywhere or do anything. You'd get kidnapped, killed, tortured, or just constantly challenged by those with inferiority complexes.

Even if you're just a minor celebrity or local politician. You'll never know the true nature of people and experience the life that comes with it. Everyone will always either put on their best face because of what you have and can do or their worst because of what they don't and cannot. And no one will truly sympathize with someone who can afford mansions and decide laws that govern others because why should they? Shoot even I'm getting a little pissed thinking about someone doing either lol. Which is my point. You never know the thorns in someone's foot until you've walked in their shoes. Just some random food for thought on the interwebs I guess.

Quoting Mac
An inmate is already serving their time or will be put to death. Prison and lethal injection are torture enough I think.


There we go. Real talk.
Mac July 22, 2020 at 21:19 #436573
I never said to embrace idealism. My point is that the goal and alternatives I explained are reasonably attainable. People act like they are idealistic dreams of perfection, but it isn't ridiculous to imagine that the prison system could change majorly for the better in the next 100 years. What is unrealistic is accepting that stagnation is all that will happen, and that the best we can do is is put a band-aid on a lethal wound. And come on,
but you more than likely had a tolerable upbringing

How is this even relevant? My point of view could be a beneficial and useful one regardless of my background. And how could one possibly come to the conclusion that I had a "tolerable upbringing" based on anything I've said? You insult me by acting like you aren't trying to insult me, when your objective is clear. The reason I'm even spending my breath on this topic in this forum is because it's close to home for me. Back to the point: Doing experiments on a criminal against their will is just as immoral as putting them in a cell. I don't think this is that whacky of a stance and I have yet to see the burden of proof fulfilled by the person making the original claim.
Outlander July 23, 2020 at 00:33 #436599
Quoting Mac
You insult me by acting like you aren't trying to insult me, when your objective is clear.


I do apologize for that and would like if you believed that was far from my intent other than to say yeah, as far as quantifying life and other decent ideals I was merely asserting a kind of nurture over nature defines our sense of morals, ideals, etc. I even said you were presumably a decent person.

We're on the same page as far as objection to OP's premise. Mine is simply solely based on the fact no one is perfect as shown by DNA evidence exonerating people often some who spent decades incarcerated and so you could be performing inhumane acts on a perfectly innocent man when you think you're not. That could have unexpected ramifications.

I go through great pains to seperate the art from the artist. I don't "know" anyone here personally so like most people hopefully they respond to ideas, concepts, and assertions versus persons, personas, or anything personal like that.
Ciceronianus July 23, 2020 at 16:37 #436669
Paging Dr. Mengele! Dr. Mengele, PF calling!
Mac July 24, 2020 at 22:53 #436956
Reply to Outlander I appreciate the good faith. I don't think the the OP's author is acting in good faith though. To me this is really a comical assertion and the only reason I entertained it was because of my involvement in the topic already as well as the hilarity of the logistics of building the system proposed given how much worse things would probably end up. There's too much hypocrisy to address that I don't even dare continue.
Banno July 25, 2020 at 00:43 #436983
Reply to Ciceronianus the White ...we could sell their kidneys...
Mac July 26, 2020 at 12:43 #437419
Reply to Gitonga There is this huge failure of societal progress when people think the only way to deal with crime properly is to punish criminals.
Gitonga July 27, 2020 at 15:30 #437695
Quoting Mac
There is this huge failure of societal progress when people think the only way to deal with crime properly is to punish criminals.


It's less about dealing with crime, more about saving lives
Gitonga July 27, 2020 at 15:33 #437697
Reply to Mac how is death more logical? That's worse than medical trials. Also if a life is a life then shouldn't one life be sacrificed to save the many?
Mac July 27, 2020 at 16:02 #437707
Reply to Gitonga No. like I already was clear about: I don't put a quantifier on the value of human life. One or 1000 lives. I think that in itself is immoral, but that's another topic. And I don't understand how this is not about dealing with crime. You are the one claiming you have a sure way to kill two birds with one stone. The minute you mention how to handle criminals, you are making the conversation about dealing with crime. It's immoral and just poorly thought through IMO (as far as what you've suggested so far). Looking at other responses it looks like I am not alone in thinking this as well. Maybe reconsider your proposal with the suggestions from this forum. I saw a lot of useful critiques of your idea here.
TheMadFool July 27, 2020 at 16:23 #437712
Reply to Gitonga

I hesitate to second the motion despite knowing that, sometimes but not always, participating as a subject in an experiment would be way better than incarceration/execution because to learn anything useful the unfortunate criminals should be representative of the general population but that may not be case and criminals could be a special subcategory of the population. Of course, if you make the assumption that we're all potential criminals it would be a different story. Perhaps you mean to gain insight on how to [s]treat[/s] mistreat [s]poor[/s] criminals for an overall benefit to the community.
fishfry July 28, 2020 at 06:19 #437894
Quoting Gitonga
Eg for every 5 trials they reduce your sentence by one year or something like that


For example they might let a hardened young killer out of prison if he offers to undergo experimental treatments to cure him of his violent tendencies.

User image
GTTRPNK July 28, 2020 at 23:19 #438086
Reply to Gitonga I can just imagine these serial mass murderers getting shot up with some chemical that fucks with their already imbalanced brain chemistry. Next thing you know, we have Stan Lee predicting supervillains.