Embracing depression.
Depression seems to be a natural state that the body embraces when afflicted with continual stress. Many people are afflicted with this condition during their lives and sometimes decide to prematurely end their suffering by their own hands or through self-destructive behavior. Society seems to associate the mental state of being depressed as something undesirable or a disease that should be treated. To me, this is a fallacy and distorted view of the human condition. People should accept depression first and then proceed with treatment if they feel the need to. Do we really need to feel happy and joyful all the time?
What's wrong with being depressed? It's my view (perhaps mistaken), that the people who can't accept their depression are compelled to commit suicide. They seem to 'suffer' from depression and want to 'end' it with such a violent act. Why should anyone 'suffer' from depression?
What's wrong with being depressed? It's my view (perhaps mistaken), that the people who can't accept their depression are compelled to commit suicide. They seem to 'suffer' from depression and want to 'end' it with such a violent act. Why should anyone 'suffer' from depression?
Comments (154)
Cause it sucks?!
So does having a broken leg. Berating yourself over it won't make it any better, would it?
To embrace depression as a learning experience rather than to try to avoid it may be necessary to lay the groundwork for a future desirable state, and when this is the case labeling it simply as an illness is misguided, I agree, but depression in itself is still an undesirable state. Society is short-sighted on the issue but not completely blind.
Are you exclusively giving depression a physical source here? That's surely misguided, if so.
Quoting Question
Well, for one, the possibility of it leading to suicide...
Quoting Question
No; the people compelled to commit suicide have patiently born their depression to an unbearable point.
Quoting Question
The way you phrase this suggests that "suffering" is a choice, or an action. Hopefully this is just a mistake in sentence structure.
Quoting Question
I do agree with this. Accepting it is a huge step. An integral aspect of depression is that it abuses itself. Depression is cyclical, in connection with feelings of shame. Accepting depression is an opening of a door into a new room.
Quoting Question
But this view of depression is an evolution from past views. Maybe it's not the end-all view of depression, but it's a step in the right direction. In our scientist (scientism-ist) culture, it's a comfort to imagine depression as being the same as a physical illness, even though it's not. It's a start.
That's interesting due to depression sometimes being called by its other name 'learned helplessness'.
Quoting Baden
I have many desires, one of which is to be rich and never have to worry about finances anymore. Sometimes being depressed in natural; but, at others it is detrimental.
My point is that depression is only viewed/labeled as detrimental when viewed through the eye of another and not oneself. One ought not condemn oneself as 'helpless', 'hopeless', 'powerless', 'useless' when experiencing depression. That only aggravates the condition and makes one's life seem miserable.
Speaking of evolution, why did we evolve in such a way that we can be 'depressed'? Presumably, there was some benefit to either the person or to the biologically related group. I'm not sure what that might be. Perhaps it had a protective value. individuals under excessive stress would withdraw for a while and perhaps thereby recover. Or perhaps depression caused ruminative thinking that helped individuals realize something useful.
I'm not sure I buy this 'evolutionary psychology' theory. I've experienced long periods of depression and it didn't yield any advantages. (It caused me to lose weight I could hardly afford to lose that first round. Alas, it hasn't had that effect again when I could really use some loss of appetite.) It sucked a lot.
Quoting Question
Because it is quite unpleasant, that's why.
Quoting Noble Dust
The point I want to emphasize is that thinking of depression as exclusively something undesirable or unpleasant exacerbates the chance of committing suicide.
Quoting Noble Dust
Well, that is maladaptive behavior. If one is depressed, then the natural thing to do is find the root cause of it and treat it and go on living as one wants. If the depression persists, then accepting it and not beating yourself over it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Quoting Noble Dust
Essentially, the only thing we have control over is our own mental state. This is the central theme of logotherapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. Coming to terms that one is inclined to experience a certain mental state that can be characterized as 'depressed' ought to lead to less suffering and self-inflicted pain.
What exactly about clinical depression is wrong about it? Why place a value judgment on such a condition?
That's just the thing; I think assuming right away that depression must have a biological advantage or disadvantage is itself flawed (I have no interest in opening a can of worms about larger issues about evolutionary benefits, etc., since I don't want to derail this thread, but do what you will). But, for instance, the potential examples you give to the biological advantages of depression don't hold up with my own, and presumably other people's experiences with depression (and you acknowledge you've dealt with depression yourself; do your conjectures add up with your own experience?); "withdrawing", as you say, often just leads to new, heretofore unknown depths of depression; sure, "ruminative" thinking due to isolation can lead to "useful" realizations, but at this point, we're not dealing with biological imperatives, we're dealing with spiritual wisdom...
As it relates to suicide, my views on it are this. There is no real need to live. If one feels that they no longer want to live, I cannot see why they should not commit suicide. This is the conclusion I have come to after a mixture of attempting to understand the nature of physical existence and spending much time on the border of being suicidal myself. I recognize that the reason I believe this is probably directly related to my depression, my emotions aren't as... robust as they used to be, but I feel that it is probably not invalid regardless. I am not sure if the question of accepting depression is more of a "should you" as it is one of "can you". After feeling it myself the idea that it some people may not be able to come to terms with it is not surprising at all. I think it depends on the feelings and beliefs of the individual that experiences depression that really decide that.
Oh. Well would you look at that, that's something we have in common, though I'm not sure if we had similar experiences severity-wise, and it looks like the exact symptoms we have may be a little different.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I agree. I can't see how having this increases my chances to pass on my genes in any way. Do you know of any research papers on this topic?
Ignoring it doesn't really work either.
For me it's the ability to function autonomously that counts. If someone can do that, mild kindness is the best service one can offer them. But if someone isn't functioning independently, the kindness can get more pushy. Well, that's the way i deal with it. There aren't rules.
I'm like bi-polar or something, probably. When I feel good, I feel like the greatest that's ever walked the earth, but most of the time I feel like a normal idiot. I think that mainly that nothing really interests me, or engages me most of the time, but when something does, I just devour it. I focus all of my attention on it, indivisibly until I bore of it too.
When I get up to date on a great manga I discovered I acquired the inspiration to move my own goals forward a little, and acquired new insights, or at least began to think of things differently, and that was pretty exciting for awhile.
After thanksgiving, I was really happy, and pleased with how things were going, and I told myself that I had everything, that I was satisfied, and that brought about a lot of energy, and enthusiasm. So much so, that I even confronted a couple of people that I'm acquainted with (three people actually, two of which I know personally in RL), because I thought that they had felt that way at one time as well. One of which had been in a car accident, and lost family, and responded emphatically about there being an afterlife. That kind of knocked me out of the stupor, and made me feel kind of shitty. Who could possibly feel that way all the time? Never love anyone? Not have it depend on social connections, love, and belonging? Those will always be shaky, impermanent and fragile.
I decided that I don't have everything. Not even close. Having more and more of my family out here with me has given me more strength, and happiness, but there are always lots of complications and hurdles. I new have my thirteen year old sister... and omg, instant parent is a difficult role. I have no fucking idea how I'm supposed to go about doing this, and I'm deeply worried that I'm going to influence her with my agoraphobic reclusive lifestyle.
I might be exaggerating here (though the lengths people go to in order to gain recognition, esteem, and other self-infatuating desires would seem to affirm this hypothesis) that half the battle in treating depression is to overcome the negative connotation of the "mental illness", "disorder", or rather simply "condition" that one finds themselves in. I feel that then people can begin treatment and eventually learn to cope and accept depression as a companion in life, albeit unwanted or unloved. This obviously requires some maturity and not everyone is willing to accept the label without a good fight against it - a rather futile one at that.
How would one go about distinguishing between clinical depression and non-clinical depression?
Quoting Question
I mean "wrong" with respect to one's health, not in a moral sense. Clinical depression is classified as a mental disorder, which again, is not a moral judgment, but simply a description of an abnormal neurological state. Non-clinical depression is perfectly normal and healthy.
Long-term stress and unhappiness might resemble depression, and it might even get better if treated like depression, but a change of life circumstances would be more effective (but much more difficult to arrange).
People who are clinically depressed have some of these symptoms, (National Institute for Mental Health):
Just because somebody isn't sleeping well doesn't mean they have depression; and over-eating isn't a reliable sign either--not these days. Just checking off the list isn't enough. Normally one is interviewed and other factors are taken into account.
Clinical depression might not have some readily identifiable cause. A very active person who is injured and in a cast might slide into depression. Generally this will go away as they recover.
Some people are bi-polar; their feelings of elation or depression aren't usually linked to any particular life circumstance. The mood swings can be very severe.
But take for example the fact that SSRI's and placebos have about the same efficacy. Meaning, that there is a vague line between distinguishing clinical depression from non-clinical depression?
But a doctor could certainly diagnose the latter too, wouldn't he? If he wouldn't, in what sense is it depression?
The thing is the medical professionals don't entirely have an answer to that question themselves. I am often astonished at the power of the placebo effect and wonder how does the brain know how to "fix" itself just through the power of belief.
If people didn't think of depression as such a nasty condition, well who knows, it probably wouldn't even be considered a disorder anymore.
No. You could go to the doctor claiming to feel depressed and he or she might not diagnose you. Normal depression is not medically diagnosable, because there's nothing medically wrong with it.
Quoting Question
The clinical form of it is nasty, though, such that the people having it don't want it. It's not fun and it's not healthy. You should look up more information about it. We're not talking about feeling sad because your dog died or you watched a melancholic movie or because you read some existentialist philosopher talking about how absurd life is.
Quoting Question
Accepting one's clinical depression means that they've attempted to understand what is physically wrong with them. Yet, merely to acknowledge an ill does not in turn remedy it. Indeed, many who suffer from depression aren't even able to acknowledge that something ails them, which means that they've not gotten their feet first off the ground toward bettering themselves.
This is because for those that suffer from major depression, we often think and feel as though we are literally falling apart and slowly dying. This experience is always, always dreadful.
For me, to embrace depression means to embrace that sense of death and dying, which is why so many who suffer from severe mental illness decide to end their life. I'm heartened by the fact that I've not gone down that road and that I've found no interest in embracing the failures of myself as if death remedies what it cannot and does not.
Quoting Question
This isn't quite right. The mistake that's being made here is to presume that clinical depression exists in a microcosm - that is, when one is clinically depressed, one cannot also be situationally depressed on top of it.
In my experience, situational depression, if left untreated or unaccepted, can lead to clinical depression, which is a kind of illness of the brain and will, such that one cannot, therefore, do much at all about what ails them. Similarly, if one becomes clinically depressed, as not a result of situational depression, then this unwanted, unplanned for, and unexpectedly crippling illness can bring about subsequent situational depression. The key, here, is for one understand from whence their depression comes. This, I know, can be a tricky business, but as I said above, if there's one thing that I've learned about my illness, it's that my depression is a multi-headed demon. It does not serve me well to presume my depression is either entirely clinical or, on the other hand, completely situational. It's very important not to forget that those who are clinically depressed also still live in a fallen world, which means they're not immune to the struggles of life, just as the situationally depressed are not immune to falling into clinical depression.
Quoting Agustino
It isn't a medical doctor's job to decide whether life itself sucks a shitstick. Theologians, philosophers, poets, musicians - these are the people whose job it is to contemplate the nature of such a topic. The doctor, like the philosopher, has a specific toolkit with which he/she seeks to understand whether one's life can be changed for the better. This is why we treat broken bones, cancer, clinical depression, and all the other sorts of physical ailments that we often find ourselves suffering from. Perhaps you do still think that seeing a priest or saying a prayer can fix the frailties of our bodies, but this suggests to me a distinct lack of understanding for the nuance distinguishing the role of medicating the body and medicating the mind.
Quoting Question
No amount of belief or conviction can alone fix clinical depression. Belief is but one important facet in the understanding and treating of clinical depression. To merely believe is to get the belief and not the truth. I suppose in some sense, perhaps the truth is a One, but not the many paths we must take in order to arrive within it.
Antithetical to human flourishing. It is human languish.
I separate terminal depression with temporal depression, with the criteria regarding its cause. The former caused by no particular event and is therefore deeply maladaptive, the latter is caused by a particular event. The former remains forever, one has to live with it or take medicine, while the latter can fade away by non-medicinal habitual adjustments.
Now, I heard an evolutionary psychological explanation for the latter case. Namely that the state of depression is a temporal state that occurs after a person experiences a traumatic event, like losing a child. The mental state helps the individual to abolish romantic emotional biases and to rationally evaluate problems.
[1]
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[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/depressions-evolutionary/
I highly doubt that if I go to a doctor telling them that I am depressed, they would just send me out the door, and not diagnose me with anything. They would diagnose me with something for sure, and quite possibly prescribe me some pills for the short term and then ask to see me again. I don't need to have major depression (which is what you're talking about) to be treated by a doctor. It will suffice that I have, for example, frequent episodes of lethargy, loss of energy/motivation, trouble sleeping and sadness. That is not sufficient to qualify me for major depression. But it is more than sufficient to warrant treatment according to a doctor.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/clinical-depression/faq-20057770
There's also other "symptoms" or personality types that would be (mis)diagnosed with depression. For example, lack of motivation, sloth and laziness will often pass for depression. Because whoever is feeling in such a mood doesn't feel like doing anything and yet they're not particularly sad, but those around them will find it unnatural. (in fact, I've had long periods in my life like that. On holidays I prefer to sit around literarily doing nothing much at all instead of travel, etc. - most folks around me find this strange, because they all want to travel on holidays) But medical doctors have a tendency to think such people require "treatment", rather than that they simply require something interesting to do.
But is it the doctor's job to decide what "better" is for the patient?
Quoting Heister Eggcart
In my experience, it is your own inner strength, and maybe a few people close to you, who are most helpful, not the doctor. The doctor is "helpful" in a few cases. Someone from my family suffered and died from Alzheimer's. Yeah, the doctor was "helpful", she gave them pills and injections so that they would be like a vegetable, and would lose interest in everything else - of course they wouldn't be violent anymore. If you count that as "helpful" fair enough. I don't. If you're unlucky to get a physical condition like that, then you're fucked - doctor or no doctor. That's it, if you get that, I honestly think that nothing, save a miracle, can save you.
But I'm not discussing that type of mental illness. If you get depression - and I was diagnosed with depression before - you have hope. You're not finished. You have a lot of inner resources left, which lie untapped inside of yourself. So long as your mind is not physically affected, you can still climb out of the pit you have dug yourself in. In that case, there's ways for you to save yourself. But they ultimately depend on you, not on the doctor. The doctor can do little, if anything, to save you.
If that be the case then, certainly, there's nothing morally wrong with depression. The reason one seeks treatment is the same as the reason one seeks treatment for chronic pain -- to feel better. Not because they are wrong for having depression.
Do I have you right?
Quoting Agustino
If you walk into a doctor's office having already diagnosed yourself, then why are you even going to the doctor's and being surprised when, perhaps, your doctor may agree? When I've gone to the doctor, I don't do the job for her. I lay everything out for her to decide best what most probably is affecting me. You start with as many symptoms and clarifications as one can, and then your doctor decides with you what you should do.
If you've given your doctor no reason not to think that you're depressed, then why are you still surprised that you're being treated...by a doctor's whose job it is to treat...?
Your doctor, then, will be treating you for situational depression, not clinical depression. Why do you not get this? If one is being treated for clinical depression, then medication is a necessary first step. If one is being treated for situational depression, medication is only a possibility to help alleviate the pain. Clinical depression is very much viewed as being fixable, while situational depression is not. Doctors fully realize that they can't fix your home life, or your job, or whatever else. But medication can help those people arrive at a better baseline in which they can change their bad surroundings. You seem to really fumble over doctors' intentions, and why they do what they do.
Quoting Agustino
Yes, it's why they spend over a decade educating themselves in order to best treat the people they live to serve. If it's not the doctor's role to decide that a cast on a broken bone is better for that person, then a doctor is of no use.
Quoting Agustino
Just a few? 3-5? :|
Quoting Agustino
Sounds like you're trying to blame doctors and medicine for Alzheimer's ravages, and the medical field for not being able to cure your family member's illness. Sometimes you have to treat people with drastic means in order to ensure as drastically a different, but better, improvement in someone's health. This doesn't always work, however. But perhaps you'd rather your family member be left alone? Mayhap if one has a heart-attack, you can be their cheerleader so that they can overcome what they can't, zzzz :-d
Quoting Agustino
This doesn't therefore mean that you were truly clinically depressed. If you just go to your doctor and say, "fuck man, I real sad, halp me," then you won't get much help. You need to explain as fully and concretely as you can what you've experienced. And if your doctor is impatient, too quick to prescribe medication, is more demanding than suggestive, then guess what? Try another doctor.
No, you can't.
This is why I suspect you've never been clinically depressed before. You just don't get it.
You might as well tell someone suffering from cancer that they can do it all by themselves. Perhaps some herbal tea is all you need...
I was responding to Thorongil:
Quoting Thorongil
Quoting Heister Eggcart
But they don't have to fix my home life or whatever. They have to fix my attitude/response to my home life so that the depressive response is changed with a different kind of response. And medicine isn't helpful in doing this.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
They've spent their time educating themselves how to treat disorders according to classifications made by others like them. They necessarily see through the prism of the classifications, and can never help the person they face. And I'm not the only one who believes so - there are academics who have written books supporting similar conclusions.
I generally don't trust my doctors anyway. I have a decent grasp of medicine, and can always discuss and look at different possibilities with doctors. I had conditions in the past, for example, that doctors recommended surgery for, and that I treated without any kind of surgery after I pressured the doctor in the treatment I wanted (which by the way worked, even though the doctor was "skeptical" about it at first).
Quoting Heister Eggcart
No I'm not blaming them, I'm simply stating a fact. If you have the bad luck of having such a condition, doctor or no doctor - you're still fucked. The doctor will help - but only very minimal kind of help.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
If they were left alone, they wouldn't have been much worse than after treatment.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
If one has a heart-attack, I know the symptoms to expect, and I have the tools necessary to notice if there actually is a problem. For example - I will take their blood pressure, and monitor pulse for any kind of arrhythmia and see how fast/slow it is. I will measure their blood oxygen level. Provided that blood oxygen level is good, their symptoms are minimal, and blood pressure levels are normal, and there are no signs of arrhythmia I wouldn't worry too much, even if their heart rate may be high and they may claim tightness in the chest, etc. Then I will monitor the condition for any changes, and call the ambulance only if necessary. At the moment I don't have an ECG machine (but I will at one point acquire one, but can't be bothered at the moment), and then there will be no need for ambulance, except if they actually have a heart attack (in which case it might be faster if I transport them to ER).
If they actually have a heart-attack though, and require surgery for it, they still run a very high risk of death, even if caught early. It's just a fact that doctors can't really help if you're really in trouble. They can do somethings for you, but generally not that much.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
According to the doctors you love, I was :P
Quoting Heister Eggcart
>:O that's hilarious!
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Well I felt like I couldn't at the time. But that doesn't mean that I actually couldn't. You can learn to disbelieve your feelings with regards to some things.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Well if you have advanced stage cancer - chances are again, that doctors, or no doctors, you're fucked. One of my cousin's grandparents was a doctor. When he got cancer, he refused treatment. Why? Because he understood that if you have cancer, treatment may actually speed up your death, and will make the rest of your life a living hell. It's easy for doctors to prescribe treatment to others - they're doing a job - but when it comes to themselves, it's a whole different story. Fact of the matter is, that when the body really goes haywire, the doctors themselves can do much less than people imagine. When doctors do wonders, most of the time, it's when the body hasn't actually really gone haywire. Like someone has indigestion and GERD - they go to the doctors, they follow a treatment, and they're as good as new!
I had a friend who died from cancer in his late teens. He had access to the best doctors in the whole world actually, and his condition was caught quite early. He still died. Fact is if you get to the point when something really goes wrong with the body, it's very difficult to treat, even if you could afford the very best treatment in the whole world. It's just a fact - as sad as it is. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to treat it, and you shouldn't hope that it will be successful, but just to consider that treatment will need to include much more than doctors can give you, and even then it might still fail. And the most important resource you have is still your body. Your body can do wonders that your doctors can't.
For example, I have a family friend whose wife had breast cancer in the terminal stage. Even with chemo, she was given a small chance to live. So she refused treatment. Instead she went on a special diet, the cancer went into remission, and she ultimately got cured. If she had listened to the doctors, she would have most likely died from the chemo (my friend that I mentioned above died from the chemo actually - and I know other people as well who died from the chemo). I wouldn't claim now that following her diet, not eating almost anything, drinking your urine, and drinking special water will cure you. But the medical world is much less capable to explain or account for the multivariate elements that are involved in such serious cases. Ultimately as I said, it is the body that does wonders and cures - medicine can at best help it, at worst hinder it. And we actually know much less about how to cure things than we are (mis)led to believe by the medical establishment.
Also, don't forget that for doctors ultimately, you're just another patient. If you die, oh well, the patient died. You're not the first, nor the last that will die. They're used to this. In fact, doctors learn to become emotionally detached from their patients, precisely because they get to see so many dying people, and they can't be emotionally attached to them all the time, or they would lose their mind. They see patients dying in hospitals since their very early days, in medical school, training to be doctors. They're used to others dying. They learn they have to give so and so treatment, and if the patient dies - no big deal for them. Because they practice this detachment, they also don't really have skin in the game - be very afraid when someone doesn't have skin in the game. Your doctor won't lose his head if you die. He has no skin in the game. Therefore you should be highly skeptical of doctors, lest you die earlier than your allotted time because of them. Make use of them - but be skeptical of them too. Use your own brain - don't believe it merely because experts claim it is so. The doctor is rapidly becoming the equivalent of the priest in the old days - people believe him, regardless of what he says.
And by the way - doctors themselves are one of the leading causes of death - through a process widely known as iatrogenesis in medicine. Solving your problems isn't as simple as going to the doctor - going to the doctor may get you killed as well. You have to take everything into account.
Utter rubbish.
Quoting Agustino
You make it sound as though there isn't millions of hours put into researching mental illness, and medicine in general. Also strange that you distrust doctors by appealing to academics.
Quoting Agustino
You're merely critiquing how everyone should think about their health, which I agree with. Yet, I trust doctors, unlike you. Why? As I said before, and as you sort-of do above, you don't have to stick with a doctor that doesn't sit well with you. But when expertise is on the line, you best do what your doctor thinks is right, because you're not a doctor, he/she is.
Quoting Agustino
The sentiment here is still borderline "who cares, because you'll die anyway." We'll all die because we live, but does that mean what we do to better our lives is meaningless or in the end futile? I wouldn't say so.
Quoting Agustino
Ah, so you admit to your family member being helped and getting better. Yet, you still don't see "better" as worth seeking merely because "they're already fucked." I don't get it. Shouldn't your "Christian" conviction have you wanting someone to get better, even if it's not fixable? If you think that faith in Christ is a guaranteed fix, then perhaps you don't understand the different between treating something and fixing something.
Quoting Agustino
If this were true, we wouldn't have hospitals and doctors and lots and lots and lots of people who have been able to thrive and prosper because of modern medicine. It's absolutely baffling to me that you're attempting to deny what I find to be the only bit of progress in the world, which is modern medicine.
Quoting Agustino
Clinical depression is more than a feeling. You can't just decide all on your lonesome to disbelieve x, y, or z and become magically better.
Quoting Agustino
This isn't much of a point, really. If I'm clinically depressed, say, it doesn't matter who I am, including if I'm doctor. The illness is what matters, not so much the person that is affected by it.
Are you the sort of person that doesn't drive with their seat-belt on because they heard of the occasional instance where doing so actually saved a driver's life, or do you do the sensible thing and drive with your seat-belt on? Your appeal to the rarity of people like your friend's wife breaking from the sensible thing to do doesn't make it logical for you to ignore professionals.
Quoting Agustino
You're oversimplifying, here. One indeed has to have a degree of self-detachment in order to perform things like surgery, but to deny that compassion fatigue doesn't affect a lot of those in the medical field would wildly disingenuous. Doctors are people too, as your doctor friend shows, and are still fallen people who make mistakes, do stupid things, and don't always do what's most logical or probably right.
Quoting Agustino
Humanity is the leading cause of human death - bet you didn't know that!
I don't know. You'd have to provide some statistics to back this claim up. It seems perfectly possible and reasonable to me that a doctor, upon hearing about your alleged depression, would not diagnose you with anything and indeed proceed to send you out the door. They have to watch out for people who fake symptoms in order to get prescription drugs, which they plan to abuse.
Justification?
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Just because there's millions of hours put into it, doesn't mean that it's necessarily yielding good results.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
No, when my life is on the line, thinking what's best to do, regardless of who does that thinking, is what's needed. Independent thinking especially - not thinking that's clouded by biases, including medical biases. I may see the situation more clearly than the doctor does in fact. The doctor can only think through the prism of the medical establishment, and quite often not even through that. I still remember when I ended up in the hospital after a severe stomach infection that lasted for 1 week, with fever, diarrhea, not being able to sleep because of the pain etc.. I went there because I wanted them to do my blood tests, and I was sent to the very best gastroenterologist (because I knew someone who worked there) but the stupid doctor wanted to keep me there, and give me intravenous antibiotics and rehydration. And I refused, and I had to bear with their rant about the fact that I'm stubborn blah blah, and then when the blood tests came back, the doctor to go like "Oh yeah, blood tests are excellent, you were right, there is no sign of infection left in your blood". And then they advised me to "drink coke" and take medicine to stop the diarrhea - both advices which I ignored. They also advised me to drink rehydration salts, which was a good idea and I followed it. Firstly, coke, despite their supposed medical expertise, does not harden the stool - that's a medical myth. Why should I trust the "best" doctor in the hospital based on a medical myth? Secondly. taking drugs to stop diarrhea is stupid - your body reacts by having diarrhea because it is trying to get rid of a pathogen that way. You don't "stop" the diarrhea - unless you have to meet the President or something. You let your body do its thing.
So yeah - doctors make mistakes, and they make mistakes more than almost anyone else, because they don't get held accountable for their mistakes. They have nothing to lose in making a mistake. That's very dangerous. And they never know when they make mistakes, precisely because they are never held accountable for them.
I have another example. Back when the doctor recommended me surgery, I went to three doctors to get a single one who would agree to do the surgery under local anesthesia, and not under spinal anesthesia (and I didn't get any who agreed). And guess what I found out! They all wanted to do the spinal anesthesia... why? Not because it was the least likely to cause further complications and would be best for the patient - but because it would be for the doctor's convenience. None of them wanted to have the patient be like "Ah it hurts there", then have to inject a bit more anesthesia, and so forth. So they were willing to take a higher risk for the patient (for example, one of the very rare but possible consequences of spinal anesthesia is cardiac arrest) because in, say 500 cases it would be fine, and in the 501st the patient would have cardiac arrest. But no worries! Who cares? He died. You know... he just died, not my fault. Complication from the surgery. No big deal! It happens!
And funnily enough, I had a relative who had cardiac arrest for the same surgery during spinal anesthesia. They saved him, but still - you get the point. Whereas, in medicine not the most comfortable option for the doctor should be undertaken, because the doctor doesn't want discomfort - but the best for the patient. Many doctors have forgotten that principle - out of sheer laziness.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
I didn't claim that modern medicine hasn't helped people. It has. I'm only arguing that the help is more limited than doctor worship makes it sound like. And a large part of this help comes from better hygiene and prevention (by the way :P ) .
Quoting Heister Eggcart
If breaking from the sensible thing enables you to save your life, why not? Again - you're judging something to be unintelligent merely because it is unintelligible - I had a thread about this in fact, check it out ;)
And I'm not appealing just to such rarity - my whole experience with the medical establishment, including countless of hours studying medicine by myself point to this. You can ignore all that, of course, and still go your own way. But it's always better to learn something from everyone, I think. I'm not telling you to never go to the doctor - only to be more skeptical of the doctor than your "oh in the end I will still do what the doctor says because he's the expert". No - you should have independent reason to do what the doctor says - not because "he's the expert". That's not an adequate answer. You have your own head that you can judge with. You can read medical papers yourself, you can study your condition, you can understand your condition by yourself. Nothing is stopping you from accessing the same resources doctors have access to. Then indeed discuss with a doctor, and then you'll be in a position to choose wisely.
Sometimes depression can be debilitating and people lose functionality because of it.
This greatly reduces the quality of their lives..
Often they resort to treatment as a last resort, as it is the nature of depression.
So it is only when the depression becomes too much to handle that people suffering then seek treatment.
What the medical field suggests is that you seek treatment not as a last resort but as soon as your functionality is compromised.
So it is not that manageable depression is regarded as an illness, but rather that unmanageable depression is an illness and it is an illness that often gets worse without treatment.
Not explicitly.
However, there is a negative implicit connotation with being depressed in society, especially in the workplace.
Quoting Moliere
Indeed, in the U.S where you have this stereotype (particularly strong in regards to males) to so to speak, pick oneself up by their bootstraps - having depression is often viewed as a failure and one feels a burden and quite real pain of feeling ostracized from society. (Which evidently aggravates the illness.)
Though this is becoming less of a problem, nowadays, than in the past, it is still a very strong prejudice held in the workplace with our obsession with efficiency and being productive.
Quoting Moliere
No, there is nothing objectively wrong with having depression; but, one feels much more burdened socially having depression than say having a broken wrist or leg.
For the past 2 years I just don't feel good, and it started when I started philosophy.
Learning about philosophical pessimism made me seriously depressed. I just don't know if I just continue living or just end it all. I see psychologist and psychiatrist, but none of it seems to help. If life is so bad, why continue living?
So the question is, am I experiencing clinical depression or am I depressed about nature of life and just can't deal with it? My mood elevates day to day, one day I feel good, next day suicidal. Not sure what to do next.
That's true. People don't view it in the same way. And I agree with you -- especially in the workplace. I'm more open about my depression with friends or in social spaces than I am at work or with people I don't know very well for that very reason. Socially speaking there's a kind of taboo surrounding mental health, and I agree -- again -- with you when you say that depression, and admitting that you have depression (even to yourself) runs counter to classical forms of masculinity.
I suppose that's why I say that depression is identical to having chronic pain -- in an effort to make it viewed in that manner. Depression isn't just being down or feeling pain. It's very particular, and one can feel both happiness or sadness concurrently with depression. (at least with the kind that I have. I am drawn to understand that not everyone's is like mine, though I am far from alone in my experiences too)
Cause and effect could be hard to discern here, were you stuck with a certain inkling which made you turn to philosophy and was it the philosophy which made a possible natural inclination worse?
Swinging from feeling good to suicidal from day to day would make me think things are not quite as their supposed to be (and I would usually encourage people to experience as much of the emotional pallet as possible).
You seem to be of the opinion that life is bad and not worth continuing and that the aid you are getting now does not alleviate your view on things; the distinction between a temporal depression and a clinical depression is made in this thread as well as the observation that a temporal depression might lead to a clinical depression, taking this into account, your inquiry into the nature of life might be biased toward the negative.
You "might" be right in you assessment of life but the value judgements which follow for you might not be "wholesome" so to speak. I would advice to entertain the possibility that you're biased at the moment, investigating philosophical pessimism when you are not able to negate the conclusions of such stances or even seeking to have your own views confirmed could prove to be a hint towards such a bias.
Take care.
I suppose because the god of evolution was imperfect and some of our attributes are not at all beneficial, whether that be depression, schizophrenia, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, a propensity for ingrown toenails, or general ugliness. Some of us are just more destined to the Darwinian dust bin than others.
Maybe. Some people under great stress don't get depressed and some people seem to be depressed for no good reason. All things considered, I would think that not being depressed is better than being depressed even if it were caused by stress. For that reason, if we could flip the depression off, we should.Quoting Question
What's wrong with a backache? It's just your body telling you that you're old and not smart enough to not lift boxes. It would seem, though, that if I could wake up without really bad back pain, I'd do that. And better than just stopping the symptoms (which might be protective against my stupidity), shouldn't I embrace a cure to the underlying problem if it were available? It just seems that if a chronically depressed patient could have his underlying basis for his funk erased, he should attempt it, just as a chronic back injured person should accept a bionic back if one were available.
You're sort of asking why we should fight our God given natural state because, after all, an all good god wouldn't have given us something for no good reason. End your depression for the same reason you shave down your ugly nose. It makes you happy.
The potential for existential depressions (aside from a purely physiological clinical depression) is something that goes hand in hand with the human capacity to be conscious, for me consciousness goes with an increased capacity to suffer.
I find it a bit shallow to treat the concept of depression as a particular which is selected for by the "Darwinian dust bin". among other things there is terror management theory and other theories which point towards the observation that being able to "see reality for what it is" isn't necessarily beneficial at first glance. Following from that, seeing things "as they are" while being able to cope with the potential strain it might pose on our cognitive capacity might prove to be something which is evolutionary beneficial.
In my opinion it's a mistaken conflation to equate the whole concept of depression with more obvious, and more overly physical ailments.
Exoskeleton. They're on the way -- maybe 2030? the Wall Street Journal said. Hang in there. You won't leap out of bed in the morning, but your exoskeleton will, dragging you along with it. You don't want to go to work, but your exoskeleton does (it likes messing around with the other exoskeletons) so that's where you're going to go. You want to go for a swim, but your exoskeleton hates water, so... no surf for you.
Why don't the visits help? Depression usually takes a long time to treat and get better. I tend to always feel better despite taking so many medications. I was on a few in the past; but, now am much better overall due to them. Don't believe the utter crap online saying that antidepressants are evil or bad. They have their use and are effective despite what people say. It just takes time for them to work.
Best regards and don't give up.
Notice how there has to be something against which the "anti" prefix in "anti-depressant" to be opposed towards. My point is that there's no point in "fighting with depression". Simply accept it and move on. Just like pretty much everything in life.
That is unless your a judgemental prick and like to see the world through your shades of black and white.
Well, I was never really into philosophy, I was researching something completely different and found out about pessimism and antinatalism. After reading more about these things I became extremely depressed, suicidal - these theories were the opposite of my view of life. I wouldn't say that I was a optimist back then, but I viewed life as something worth living, I enjoyed many aspects of it (in fact I still do enjoy many things, but thoughts of pessimism just ruin it for me). Pessimists consider everyone else deluded about life, because their view is the most accurate. Life is suffering. So am I deluded about life, that I don't view it this way? I myself don't subscribe to philosophical pessimism, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the truth.
Also I don't see the logic between saying life is suffering and continuing to live. If there's so much suffering in the world, why go on? Or is it just the depression talking?
Been living with this in my head for two years now and don't know what to do.
Maybe it is all just the depression talking, but some days are really unbearable and only thing I want to do is sleep.
Quoting Gooseone
I didn't consider life good or bad. I just accepted it and tried to enjoy it as much as possible. According to pessimists life is bad, ugly place not worth continuing. This is what I deal in my head all day, this conflict what I feel about life and what pessimist say about life.
Quoting Question
Stress is the result of conflict; in physics it is forces in opposition, in psychology it is emotions in opposition. In rossii's comment above, one can see the conflict between rational philosophical thought and unthinking experience. There may be another conflict behind that, but I say what I see. A classic environmental stressor is a traffic jam. One is in the business of driving, but one cannot drive. The obvious solution to relieve this stress, if one cannot escape the jam, is to depress the feeling of wanting to get somewhere fast.
The problem with this is that one does not have separate volume controls for each emotion, so in losing the urgency to move, one loses also any positive feeling one might have. One enters the void. And the problem with entering the feeling void is that one has no feeling to turn the volume back up. When the traffic clears, one moves forward, but one has lost the positive feeling of moving forward.
One might say that depression is an excess of emotional control.
And then one seeks to control the depression... it is indeed a potentially lethal vicious circle, and it becomes more prevalent as society imposes more tight limits on the expression of feeling. Which it necessarily does in the case of drivers, because road-rage is also potentially lethal. I hope the example can be readily generalised.
This guy's living conditions are also probably intolerable according to many (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kxSrPD__BA). Do you see him being depressed? No. What makes the difference? The attitude one has in front of whatever the world is. The world doesn't have to be the way you want it to be for you to be happy. All that has to be the case is that you have hope. This guy for example - imagine him when he was in his late teens. According to most, he was hopeless. Would never get married, would never do anything great in the world, would never have sex, etc. And yet he could live like that. But then we have people - *crocodile tears* - uhhh uhhh the girl I like doesn't like me back! End of the world! Or uuh uuh Im too ugly, no one wants to have sex with me - or uhhh aahh! I lack skill, I'm not good enough to be a basketball star! End of times! >:O Give me a break, give me a break...
I think comparing depression with a broken leg or foot would be apter in this case. Anyway, I fail to see your point here.
I doubt the attitude makes as much difference as people think. I agree it's possible to have a bad attitude and ruin even the best living conditions (though even this is not that powerful, and can't make things as bad as being starving). But it's not possible for a good attitude to remedy bad conditions. Feelings and attitude aren't magic.
Also, the ability to have a good or bad attitude is just another living condition, and is also not magic, so it doesn't really help.
Well sure, but it depends. I agree if you're starving, you have no roof over your head, you're out in the cold, and so forth - like some beggars, then yes, mere attitude won't make you any happier. But most people who struggle with depression aren't in those circumstances. Although - I will say that even someone who is in those circumstances, while a change in attitude may not make them any happier, it could set them on a road towards changing their circumstances and finding the help they need.
Quoting The Great Whatever
It is - because attitude precedes actions. If you have a bad attitude and a bad situation, then you'll not act in ways which can change your situation and make it better.
Quoting The Great Whatever
Yes but it makes one focus on what's important in order to become capable to alter the situation if this is at all possible. Having a good attitude isn't a guarantee of success - but it definitely gives you the best odds.
I have always held the view (from personal experience) that depression and other mood disorders (how I hate that word, 'disorders') are a result of an excess of emotion. There is no benchmark to gauge one's level of emotional response to an event or experience; but, usually when someone is left to internalize it as opposed to a healthy externalization of one's emotions, then I suppose depression is the result one is left with.
Notice how almost every drug (apart from the newer one's) are antagonistic to one's level of experience that is governed by the various neurotransmitters in one's brain.
It seems paradoxical that one ought effectively suppress one's emotions further to reach remission from depression.
I'm no doctor and don't pretend to be one; but, try some lithium. It's as harmless as one can get and is quite effective as an adjunct to most medications along with being a potent anti-suicidal drug. I take 5 mg (120mg of lithium orotate) every day and feel quite serene and calm. Goods stuff for your body also.
I'm not a doctor either, but I have studied medicine for quite a long time and have spoken to a few doctors. Regarding lithium - it does have potential side effects but they are rare and will often happen when lithium levels reach too high in the blood. There generally isn't a good source of lithium naturally, so many people have towards the lower levels, which may be responsible for their feelings of depression. However - lithium treatments should only be undertaken AFTER a blood test has been run, and the lithium levels present are below 0.4mmol/L (these limit levels would differ from country to country depending on what the labs there set as the mean concentration for people). Afterwards, treatment with lithium should occur under the supervision of a doctor, and with a monitoring plan for the blood levels of it. This has sensible information after a quick read:
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/depression/a636/lithium-medication/
The level of lithium I'm taking is far lower than the typical clinical dose range of 300 mg or even more.
As far as I know 5 mg is a baby dose that can be taken safely every day or every other day.
Yes your level is much lower than what would sometimes be given for bipolar. But that doesn't mean that it is inconsequential. As I said, I've heard a few doctors recommend people who have no problems with depression to take lithium orotate - simply because the body is generally towards the low side on it. I myself refused my doctor (other relatives accepted), but to each his own.
There is a general tendency in doctors to over-medicalize, and consequently to overprescribe medications.
Being an unregulated supplement, how do we know exactly what and how much we would be taking?
I know very well the dichotomy we are able to make between a more objective "rational" view and our feelings on things, I would not be inclined to fathom there can exist such a thing a pure rational view though, the way some philosophical thoughts can become detracting is due to the value we put on our own rational capacities and to what degree we like it to be the thing with which we inform and govern ourselves, this is still an emotional value 'of' our rational thought.
I could also concur in observing that a lot of people seem mentally deluded / somewhat shallow / don't think about things as much as I'd like to see. If philosophical pessimism makes such pessimists assert that others are deluded and they are accurate, why should everyone be accurate?
Also, to some extent I equate consciousness with a capacity for suffering, especially in humans this follows through to a great extent ...you don't see a lot of animals suffering from an existential crisis for example. Seeing it as a capacity instead of "rationality" asserting that life = suffering might be a more useful way of looking at things.
I think you have something to gain by reassessing your philosophical viewpoints and they way you implement philosophical viewpoints. Be wary of bias though (both a possible depressed state of mind and things like confirmation bias).
Yeah, so? That doesn't refute my distinction.
Well the distinction, merely as such, between diagnosed and undiagnosed depression, is clearly irrefutable; so it should be obvious that I wasn't questioning that. The salient question is whether the doctors' diagnoses are generally beneficial.
I'm no doctor and I don't pretend to be one, I also don't know much about lithium but I feel your statement is bit too positive here. You make it seem as if it's candy and if there's nothing wrong with doing drugs as long as makes you feel good.
Also, sometimes it is easier to learn how to cope than it is to fix wider social conditions which are surely the cause -- but given one's general feeling of impotence (depression is apt here) coping is easier to learn than changing the environment.
Also I pointed out that many people that suffer from depression do embrace it, and that is part of the problem.
It is not necessary to do so and doing so can impair your functionality as well as your quality of life.
I think that's a gross misunderstanding of my claim. If there are means to minimize suffering at little to no cost (side effect wise) I feel that mentioning taking a simple compound like lithium is OK.
But, based on the responses I digress.
I don't think that is quite true. That sort of like telling a patient their gonna die in 3 months and let them suffer or not tell them and let them live their lives comfortably until then. The obvious choice is to tell the patient that he will die in 3 months.
With depression or any mental disorder, one has to accept it (the diagnosis) to even begin treatment.
Well it usually sells in the form of Lithium Orotate, which are capsules 130-120mg in active content. That translates to roughly 5mg of lithium. What your body does with it once you've taken it though -- that's never too clear. That's why blood serum tests are the only means of verifying the concentration that is present in the blood, whether it builds up and so forth. And anyway, the main point is that you only need it if your levels of lithium are low. So to verify that, you should get a blood test.
I know from experience that is not good advice.
My point with the title of the thread was that embracing what one has is a sine qua non for getting better.
I was talking about medical depression which can be treated as a chemical imbalance.
Here's the problem, and while I'm at it, my dislike for calling states of mind as 'disorders', is that we don't really know what exact amount or the ratio of neurotransmitters is needed to be in or in what amount, and quite frankly we will never know the answer to that. All we do know that in some people with clinical or non-clinical (is there any difference between the two?) depression have a state of mind that won't let them function as they wish.
Now, what is one left to do? Simply ignore the 'disorder' and swallow the happy pills or not try and understand their current state of mind and instead dissociate the illness with the simple act of taking the happy pills, and keep on taking them until they lose efficacy.
Maybe what I'm saying can be better understood by the discontinuity between psychotherapy and psychiatry. I hope the bridge between the two can be made and used in tandem instead of treating the 'disorder' as a 'migraine' or something else that can be readily treated by pills and what have you.
Yeah, but then the mindset is that the pills will do all the work, which they can't and never will. And this seems like the sentiment both the doctor and patient explicitly or implicitly agree on.
I pretty much had to resort to treatment because my mental illness had become unmanageable.
Of course each person has to decide for themselves what is best.
Definitely treatment is not nearly as effective, if at all, if it is involuntary.
Well, regardless of what came first or not, the imperative is to come to terms with depression before one needs to see the doctor and take the happy pills as a last resort. Although, I won't say that it's easy to do so.
Well, behaviors and thoughts can be changed before the depression becomes such a nuisance. Either way, it's a nuisance; but, there' no other option than to bite the bullet and enhance treatment with such things as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or whatnot.
We should still avoid medication because some people might think we are weak willed?
Mmm, I dunno about that. The whole point of the clinically depressed requiring medication is because they are not able to change their behaviors and thoughts.
It's my hypothesis that depression slowly creeps up on oneself until one realizes how much of a nuisance it becomes a day to day functioning. It's a slow and quite deadly process. Profilactic care seems essential, as with anything health related.
If one can't afford a therapist then one needs to start the self-help books and give that a try. In my case I do both, medication and read some CBT books about cognitive distortions and the like.
I had not thought about that.
But medicine isn't always given to the clinically depressed, you're ignoring that fact. Some people get better spontaneously, by themselves, others find a way through CBT, MBSR or ACT or another variation of therapy. You speak of medicine (pills) as if it is absolutely necessary, and it's not. It may be necessary for some people and in some cases, but certainly not all.
Medicine isn't just pills, Agu.
Well, depression isn't treated nowadays by people who you seem to portray as completely incapable of taking care of themselves, by locking them up in an asylum or another such manner. Yes, this is in large part due to prescribing the appropriate medication to those who need it most. However, full remission from depression or other mental disorder is, I think, not that prevalent among people who treat depression with medication alone. The efficacy of treating depression with medication and therapy is much much higher, and more often than not remission is achieved.
I didn't say waiting around is what one should do. But there are other non-pharmaceutical treatments. And by the way - non-pharmaceutical treatments DO change the makeup of your brain via neuroplasticity.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/21/mindfulness-based-cognitive-therapy-treatment-chronic-depression-antidepressants
MBCT is a development from both CBT and MBSR mixed together, which has shown quite effective in combatting depression.
Past month was again, one week feeling well, next week feeling like shit, obsessed with suicidal thoughts. Days i feel the worst are the ones that my head tries to resolve my internal conflict - i want to live and enjoy many things, but this feeling is constantly opposed in my head with philosophical pessimism (how can you enjoy life when it is hell? etc.)
Is it depression thats causing suicidal thoughts or I just can’t cope with living?
Or is it just really depression and treating depression right way will make me feel better?
Since it’s been over 2 year of feeling this way, I really don’t know if it can really get better.
Hey rossii,
I can give you some advice in terms of how I dealt with it; but, don't take it as some Truth.
When I first started working I had a hard time adjusting to being active and quick on my feet and exerting effort for prolonged periods of time. At the time it got so bad I was rethinking that maybe suicide is an option for useless people like me. However, and I think this is the fundamental thing, I didn't give up, and as the time passed by and more time was spent at work things got easier and easier and have actually become very easy to deal with.
So, don't give up, keep at it, take whatever medication helps (it did in my case, due to the fact that depression comes and goes where medication will keep you at a baseline to prevent any ups and downs). And despite feeling like shit, try and find a job, even a part time one. The new environment and stimulating atmosphere will do tons of help.
I also plan to start meditation again, it really seems like a good thing to do.
In the case that this is depression...
Chronic pain gets better, but it doesn't really go away. There are habits and activities you can establish in your life to make it feel better, but even with said habits established you have good days and bad days. And if you fall out of those habits then you'll have worse days. And it may take a long time to figure out which habits work best.
Despite depression being a natural thing, we live in a society, and society mandates that we be productive citizens. One cannot live without money or even for the matter consider it. If I had the option to go on benefits for depression, I still would rather not, as this would only leave me in a state of apathy that is a breeding ground for negative and destructive emotions. Hence, depression must be treated; but, acceptance of the fact that one is depressed will pave the road to recovery.
I have a personality disorder so when I did have to go to a psychologist to help me with my depression but he simply gave me knowledge I didn't know. I didn't know I had a personality disorder and he is the one who brought it up and made my PD clear. The knowledge of my PD and affects of it on myself is what helped me with my depression. It didn't cure me of depression because, like you said, it's a natural state. It can only be suppressed or managed. I have learned to manage it well.
What I will say is this. You shouldn't fight depression. Human emotions are something that should be valued equally. Depression may not feel well but trying to fight your feelings will feel even worse. Going out of your way to not experience sadness or pain will only make sadness and pain that much worse. You should openly and freely accept all emotions that come your way. Depression can affect us on a physical level and it's important to know why you feel the way you do. Take time to relax and learn to think deeply about yourself and your feelings. It may not "cure" you but it will help you immensely. Depression isn't the enemy, fighting it is.
Well it isn't known to people who 'suffer' from depression. They seem to have a negative thought loop that it something that should be fought with and immediately be 'done' with to lead a happy life, as if a happy life can't be had with depression, which it can.
Self-acceptance is a very important concept here that I see rarely mentioned. As the name implies, it comes from the self and has to be fostered by yourself. There are only a few people who will remind you of it and one has to cherish them and their support.
Quoting Grey
Kudos for saying that. The whole point of the thread in one sentence, although needed some elaboration.
Not everyone can treat his depression because to do so you need to have a positive view of your life, some people however are completly right in their depression because their life objectively sucks.
As simple as that.
Well, that's not really true. I have a fairly good idea of what depression is. It is true, at the deepest of my sorrows I had no motivation to get out of bed and just wanted to lay there and sleep as much as possible.
It's quite sad.
Yet you find your life so good that you still want to live it and embrace your pain that is only a part of an overall happy life, so you are not depressive anymore, would you say that if you were depressive currently ? No because when you are depressive ... you are depressive
That's not true and that ideology is a cause of depression and the reason people can become suicidal.
Quoting Hamtatro
That's also not true. People choose suicide for many different reasons not just because they think their life will be sad. It's a lot more complex, suicide doesn't come from sadness it comes from pain. Pain which manifests in many forms. Trivializing suicide to, "just being sad" is an insult to people with suicidal tenancies.
Embracing sadness and depression doesn't mean living your life sad and depressed. If you accept sadness and depression and let the emotions do their job then you wont feel that way permanently. It's a matter of understanding feelings vs. fighting them. That concept isn't outlandish and is put into practice in counseling offices everywhere.
I would say that most professionals aren't capable of psychotherapy in most cases and arent even equipped with the expertise in the area. They'll offer comfort and acceptance and no judgments but at the end of the day you're still going to have to take your SSRI's.
I think, personal initiative is of greater importance here, and not everyone understands the gravity of the situation at the time, thinking the SSRI's will do the job for them. And, a little more, it's not the depression that kills but the negative thoughts and feelings that arise from it. It's a slow and painful killer.
Then what is depression if it is not "negative thoughts and feelings" ?
Quoting Grey
Give me a single, just a single thing that someone could do that is not in the purpose of trying to be more happy during his overall existence. And then tell me what is the purpose of your life if it is not, at the end, to be satisfied by it, to be happy.
Even someone that stay alive and suffer just because he is religious is just trying to maximise his happines on the long term.
Quoting Grey
At the end they prefer to die instead of living because there is something that makes them sad that they know or think will not change in the future. Give me please an example of someone who decided to die because of something he don't give a f*, or something sad but the person thinks it will change in a positive way in the future ? It doesnt make sense, at all . And don't tell me about terrorism or religion, it is not the subject, and they anyway just try to maximise their overall happiness.
Quoting Grey
It is really full of positivity, but it is not true, if i let the memotions do their job I will just be depressed as it is the emotion i feel, what you mean instead is fighting depression (to accept the reallity that makes me sad) which have nothing to do with embracing it, you just change the way you feel the reallity but you don't embrace your feelings, you change them.
You can embrace anything in life as far as it lets you satified of it, but you can't embrace sadness and depression because by definition if you are satified of it then you are not depressed anymore.
If it helps, I struggle with this all the time. Our personalities are not of our own creation - they are socially influenced and thus the optimistic and affirmative morality of society literally bleeds into our psyche.
Wouldn't it be great if the pessimists were wrong? Wouldn't it be just fantastic if everything they said could be explained away by some flawless and satisfying reason? It seems like the existence of pessimism is itself an argument for pessimism...
The unfortunate thing is that pessimism is difficult to fully understand if you've been lucky enough to avoid some serious misfortune or have a flexible mind that allows you to ignore these memories. Another issue is how we seem prone to forgetting all the bad that has happened, downplaying negative possibilities. It's only when life starts to get rough again that you're confronted with the obnoxious and harmful nature of life and move from being sedated to being sober.
For me, at least, it's actually easier to stay in a melancholic mood than to go through radical mood changes. If I am correct, then the anxiety you feel when faced with things like suffering and death and suicide is the result of you bouncing back from an optimistic "high". It's exactly this sudden and overwhelming sense of dread that characterizes disillusionment.
But no, I don't think there is a rational reason to continue living. I think a lot of people on their death beds would not choose to re-live their lives, nor would I think unborn fetuses (if they were capable of doing so) would consent to beginning life if they saw what it entailed. But just because life is probably not worth living doesn't mean suicide is automatically the solution. If avoiding suffering is what you're after, then suicide is actually probably not the best course of action, since suicide has a tendency to fail and cause a hell of a lot of suffering. So you're stuck in a sort of penitentiary. Once life has started, it's hard to stop and you might as well just go along with the flow.
I'm also of the opinion that there's some legitimately interesting and ironic experiences to enjoy while surviving. If there's anything advantageous to being alive, it's that bitter irony and occasional sense of beauty and satisfaction that helps build an aesthetic of a life.
Quoting rossii
Like I said before, you're still in the affirmative mind-set. You need to let go of the idea that death and suffering are un-natural and contingent. As soon as you stop clenching on to life so hard, it gets a helluva lot easier and fun. Like Nietzsche said, the possibility of suicide helps comfort those in dark times. I think those who make a "pact" to themselves to never commit suicide are those who aren't emotionally mature enough to trust in their perceptions of their own well-being. If you always keep suicide in the back of your mind, and meditate on it daily, it becomes a sort of symbol of our predicament and can help ground your expectations and comprehension of the world.
For example, I find it funny when Tough Guys hyped up on testosterone try to pretend like they're King of the World and that they can do anything they want. They might be able to do a lot of comparatively-impressive things, but they probably can't kill themselves. Ha!
Fuck it man, what's the reason not to go on living? What's the reason to quit life? Living is your default state. You need a reason to change something. You don't need a reason to leave things as they are. There's no "why" to going on living. You go on living because you are alive, simple. That's not a reason for it, simply how things are.
Life isnt rational, if you like it take it if you don't then pass, why live if you suffer from it more than you enjoy.
Don't try to make sense of your life, just do the things that makes you happy, you seems to be a curious person but you won't have any anwers to your questions if you are dead, enjoy what is enjoyable :)
Firstly, depressed and/or suicidal individuals often keep on living precisely because of their illness - their depression becomes what sustains them, not so much what occurs, as Question alluded to, outside of the bed, or the shower, or the house. In other words, some depressed people live to be depressed, not to live a life of love...not that such people choose that "lifestyle."
Secondly, and speaking for myself, I wouldn't say that I've either embraced depression or judged that life is so good that I still want to live in it. I've merely judged that to not be would be worse than to still be, that leaving behind my family would be a grave, grave mistake, more worse than any of the pains I am facing now in life. Were I truly alone in this world, perhaps I'd find that I would have nothing then to live for, either depression or love, now gone.
I might also add that depression's lethargy can actually be a blessing of sorts, seeing as the apathy that comes from one's woes can coincidentally make the thought of suicide be as pointless as going to school, or getting up for work. So, in this sense, the unintended and unwanted mental and physical laziness and inability to act works in some people's favor, as it lessens the likelihood of them finding the will power to jump in front of a bus or pull the trigger or to cut themselves.
This sounds much like the slave who, when his master decides to free him, cannot bear to be freed, and begs for the chains not to be taken off :P
Personally, I've suffered of depression, and the one thing it taught me was that there's not much to gain out of life, it's a zero sum game. All that really matters is whether you are a moral and loving person, there's nothing "big" you can get out of it. Careers, money, girlfriends, etc. nothing is of real importance ultimately. So nowadays, I wouldn't even think of attending something like a party for example. Many young people are obsessed about partying, as if that would make their life better somehow - or it would make life worth living. I don't buy that shit - life is worth living in and of itself, it doesn't require any particular thing. So I'm skeptical about "cure all" solutions. The human condition doesn't have a cure, because it doesn't need one. Once you become satisfied with the idea that you can't gain anything out of life, and therefore neither can you lose, you are finally free... you are just left to fill your time until you die with whatever you think is good and important.
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
basically you are telling me that they live because they are too lazy to kill
themselves ? ^^
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Quoting Heister Eggcart
So you judged that your life worth more (or "is so good that" depending on the level of fun that I want to put in my words .. ) than "nothing". It is exactly what i wanted to tell you. If you were suffering more than you enjoy your life (no familly for example etc..) then it would be smarter from you to chose death.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
What does it mean ? They live depressed because they like it ? They live depressed because they either fear death or thinks it is better to live than nothing, it is not always true however, "nothing" is not always worste than "bad", and in such a case we speak about a real nothing that doesnt product boredom or regrets which make it really interesting.
Like I said before the final goal of any human is to satisfy his needs, which lead to happines, no one continue living if he have the choice in a case where there is more overall suffering than happiness (in his mind).
You judged that "nothing", right or wrong, is worst than life, so in your mind your overall better amount of satisfaction is in life not deah, your case does not contradict my assertion at all.
And ....
Quoting Agustino
So, your whole post doesnt make any sense haha, I don't think that life is worth anything however I still enjoy what is enjoyable
Young people, which I'm a part of, enjoy partying, traveling, girlfriends, meet great, rare and interesting people during their lives. And you know what ? Even having interesting conversation an a random forum somewhere on the web :)
Sort of, but not everyone. You're oversimplifying.
Quoting Hamtatro
What? No. Life is majority suffering. But merely because this is the case does not mean I must kill myself. I only said that it might not matter were therenothing but suffering in my life, with there being a total absence of love.
Quoting Hamtatro
No. The only meaningful thing in their life becomes, oxymoronically, their depression.
Quoting Hamtatro
But I don't think life is ever more "happy" than it does suffer.
Quoting Heister Eggcart
Quoting Heister Eggcart
It seems like you have ideas but I don't see any real convaincing argument compared to me and what i said, if you have nothing but assertions i would ask you to at least tell me where I'm wrong but not just by affirming things.
Once more i can say :
Quoting Hamtatro
Assertion that is "the only goal of a human life is to be happy".
Happy or satisfying compared to the other choice (death), which lead to the same conclusion that the only human goal is the maximisation of his satisfaction.
Someone who chose to live but who suffer more than anything is misunderstanding the concept of death. You don't lose anything being dead nor you suffer or you enjoy something, a common mistake is to compare it to nothing, which is negative, but the notion of absolute nothing of death is not comparable to the nothing of being lonely in a empty room.
I'm speaking as someone who suffers from depression. I thought I had already made that explicitly clear :\
I clearly understand that you are depressed however it is not because you suffer from something that you won't go to the doctor, telling to your family that you know better than anyone what you have, let's end the conversation since I argue for nothing. You just keep saying the same thing and never clearly prove me wrong, its boring.
I wrote a whole post and you quote the little tiny part that makes you sad ... what an interesting point of view.
Well, your English is a bit weird with odd sentence structures, so it is a bit hard to read.
If you are arguing for hedonism, the maximization of pleasure and the minimization of pain, I do not think that you have an argument. First, the whole arguing for hedonism and setting that up as the goal in life, as others in the thread have pointed out, creates the paradoxical situation where we seek pleasure but cannot find it directly. At best, even though maximizing pleasure might be the ultimate reason behind what we do, we might have automatically value certain things because they are the only things necessary and sufficient to achieve happiness. Second, there is the deceived businessman scenario, in which we have two people: 1) a businessman who has a loving family and a good career who is happy, and 2) a businessman who has a loveless family and a bad career, but believes he has a loving family and a good career, so he has the same exact amount of happiness as the businessman in 1). It appears that 1) has the better life, but, if 1) has the better life, then hedonism is false. Third, there is the problem that others alluded to and that I have scratched the surface on personally: no matter how you shake it, life has a greater level of pain than of pleasure. If this is true, then, under hedonism, we run into serious challenges.
Against your argument about depression, it appears to state that depressed people are not really depressed because they have not committed suicide and that they ought to. However, if my third point is true, then they shouldn't necessarily kill themselves, because it is not as if the non-depressed person has it better. Also, as you said, life is not rational, nor are all the decisions we make. I would actually venture to say that there can often be an irrational aspect to a depressed person. Depression is, at the clinical level, a disorder. Even when we drift into non-clinical depression, we may still find some of the same problems as with clinical depression: a cyclic continuation of sadness that prevents the depressed from obtaining things that help with sadness, which causes more sadness, which prevents the depressed from obtaining things that helps with sadness, and so on.
Depression and sadness are two very different situations; I have never had depression, but I have been incredibly sad to a very dangerous point because the latter is based on objective or lived experiences, such as a broken heart when someone deceives you. Depression, on the other hand, is elusive and contains negative sensations that you are unaware of. As it is subconscious, it makes it all the more difficult to overcome because you are unable to reason or articulate it; this is the same with anxiety, only the latter conversely involves frustrated sensations. The only way to overcome either is to decipher the language either through writing or art. When you sense something, express the feelings, draw the images that may be in your mind; communicating emotions is difficult but it needs to be done and sometimes just having someone listen to you without judging you is enough; no one can help you, you just need to release, that is, release it from subjectivity and raise it up to consciousness, to the objective realm so that you are able to articulate it and understand it. Only through understanding can the heavy emotions dissipate.
It is also important to recognise that sometimes these feelings are intuitive and it is really you trying to talk to you, signalling that something is wrong. It could mean a situation that you are in, say for instance you are in an unhappy relationship, or that you there is something that occurred in your past that you have yet to confront, that you are in an existential angst because you are unsuccessful etc. Sometimes, it is also because you are unable to make decisions for yourself and because it is in our nature to eventually transcend and become of independent mind, our failure to do this divides us between being like everyone else and being ourselves that we get confused or caught in an existential limbo. There may be a lot to filter through, but take it one step at a time; as I always say, be concerned about how to cross the bridge only when you get to it. Focus on a plan, set goals, and read or write or draw as much as you are able. The emptiness will slowly start to heal as you start taking better care of yourself.
People who smoke or take drugs or even conversely those who slice and dice their bodies toward a supposed perfection essentially have mental health issues, even if they present themselves as happy people because our society has enabled these types to appear normal. I overcame much of my past lived experiences and there was a lot to go through by taking care of myself, by learning and reading, eating right and exercising, enjoying my own company and taking care of others in need, which are all signals of someone who is of right mind. But it took a lot of work, courage, patience and tears and no doubt there are still some obstacles I will need to face.
It is not easy but I am taking my sweet time knowing that this healing is permanent and I have strengthened to a point that I know will mean that I will no longer be affected by either my past or indeed my present because I care about me. I recommend that you never give a fuck what anyone thinks because your health and life is paramount and by being able to articulate the reasons for those feelings, you will take control of your life permanently and not simply wash it down with a couple of pills.
but how can I achieve this mindstate? I want to believe this. What I really want is to be able to accept that I am here and just live life. Deep inside I don't want to hurt myself, my family and friends, but also I am extremely suicidal and don't know what to do.
Taking care of yourself is not an easy endeavour and some people are caught in a continuous loop like a scratched record because they refuse to take that step of separating themselves from the world around them. Some even thirst for drama as though their identity is based this heavy burden, as though they refuse happiness.
I admittingly do not understanding suicidal thoughts but I was in danger of death once because I was sad from multiple and rather negative experiences that I stopped eating properly. That is because I put others before me. To achieve the 'mind-state' as you call it is to first and foremost start taking care of yourself. See it as a strategy, a first of many steps, but setting a health goal and working toward achieving that is essential. It could be to eat less fatty foods and more protein or to quit smoking or to get to a healthy weight range, what you eat and exercise is fundamental to a healthy mind. The second is to express yourself, release these feelings even if they make no sense and this can be done through writing, through art, and through verbal communication including talking to a counsellor or a good friend, or some random dude you are sitting next to on a train and freak them out a bit, haha. See each moment as a puzzle piece that you will over time be able to connect to one another. So, the strategy is, each time you feel a way that is effecting you, try to write about it or draw the images going on in your mind at the time; build on your subjective language. But you need to release. Finally, you need a strategy or a life-long goal to work on; this could be study or employment but you need to follow your heart and find yourself something that you can do actively. Set a temporal goal, or what is known as a 'five-year plan' and try working toward it. I set myself a goal that I will be working internationally in five years in the field that I want to be in and as each month passes, I feel that goal getting closer and closer. But this goal needs to be something that you LOVE. I am not there yet, as in have not reached the goal that I love, but I am strategically working towards it. Try to find out what you love and if you don't know, study. Study, read, study and learn and something will pique your interest and that will open the doors for you.
Life is a responsibility that you must accept is yours and taking care of yourself is a sign of independence. No one should make you feel crappy and if they do, you need to re-arrange your life to eliminate them from it, even if that means your family and friends. You are paramount. And only when you are healed and in control can you invite others to participate in sharing your life with you.
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/motar.png[/IMG]
Life is what you do while you're waiting to die. There's no point in suicide, because you're going to die anyway. Why the fuck would you hurry? What's the reason for doing that? You will die anyway - there's no point in committing suicide, death will come by itself. Until then, you have a little bit of time that you can use to do whatever - or nothing at all - until death comes and takes you. Again - this is the fundamental fact of existence. There's nothing you have to do - you are free - that's what being free means. There's no imperative - it's up to you what you will do.
This isn't to say that there is no morality. Of course there is morality, only that it's your choice to follow it, just as it's a choice not to follow it. If there was some imperative, then there could be no freedom of choice. Because there is no imperative, there is freedom of choice.
Quoting rossii
By understanding what I just wrote. Suicide is pointless precisely because death is inevitable. Why would you hurry to be dead? It's not like you could even avoid it.
Quoting rossii
Great, so then don't hurt yourself, your family and your friends. What would be the point of doing that?
I don't see why 1 would have the better life than 2, if 2 see his life as if it was the life of 1. The quality of your life is in your mind, like everything else, I mean it is simple science not even philosophy.
Quoting Chany
Hedonism is about happiness not about the number of great or bad things that happens to you. Its all about how people see their lives not about how they actually are.
Quoting Chany
This idea sounds like the kind of jokes that people do to make fun of philosophy haha . And anyway your third point is false.
And if you were right, the good conclusion is that everyone should kill themselves and not that the depressive should stay alive.
Thanks for your reply it was interesting :)
Which would you prefer: the life of 1) or the life of 2)? I prefer 1), and I would venture most would agree with me.
Also, I do not like people using the word "science" to describe what effectively is philosophy. I've had enough of that on this site.
Quoting Hamtatro
Hedonism is about pleasurable experiences and painful experiences. It may not necessarily break down into utilitarianism (though I find it hard not to go there), but it remains that ultimately, pleasure is good and pain is bad. Something that happens to you that is painful is bad under hedonism and something that happens to you that is pleasurable is good for you under hedonism. People's perception of their quality of life may influence how they handle pleasure and pain, but it does not ultimately determine whether they life was of good quality or not. A person who is in serious pain in every waking moment but judges their life to be of relatively good quality does not appear to have a good life. This is not to say that people living with serious pain cannot have good lives or that their lives are necessarily worse than those without such pain. However, it is odd to say that one's perception of life is all that matters and the actual content of their life is irrelevant. Especially given my third point:
Quoting Hamtatro
It is not a joke. There is serious discussion to be had about how much pleasure there really is in life, and whether we can seriously lead it. Take, for instance, nostalgia. Nostalgia occurs when we look at the past and recall all the happy moments and fondly remember those times. However, we know that people tend to forget all the bad things when they look back on the past. They tend to forget the painful moments, the long stretches of repetitively mundane and pointless actions, and can effectively fabricate a false past. With this in mind and other pieces of evidence (like how memories are reconstructions the past and that they can go very wrong), we have reason to believe that people are not necessarily good judges of how good their lives actually are. There is a book called Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence by David Benatar which has received attention and uses this point to argue for anti-natalism and voluntary extinction of the human race.
We can look at the pessimists, existentialists, the Stoics; heck, even Epicureans, and they were hedonists. We see a line of thought: popular notions of happiness are faulty and we need to find a way of living beyond such notions.
Stoics have had nothing to say about pleasure. However, I think every religion and most ethical theories have concluded that endless pleasure or the pursuit of pleasure for pleasures sake is misleading to the path of happiness.
As a part Buddhist I think desires originating from the desire for pleasure are a false loop as Buddhism describes.
Ask any drug addict.
No arguments here.
Well honestly I don't really care as far as I'm equally happy in both of them, and anyway whatever I respond the conclusion stay the same. I would say the life of 1 since I have more chances to stay happy if I have real reasons but it doesnt change the veracity of my assertion which is that happiness is in your mind.
Quoting Chany
It is not philosophy that the world is nothing without our brain : what is good, what is bad, which color is front of you, what you feel etc is up to you. I think we can agree on that without problem.
Quoting Chany
This book is pure gold and i was about to tell you about it haha :) . By the way if you have something similar to recommend me that would be awesome.
Quoting Chany
Quoting Chany
I find more logic to say that the pleasures and pains are just part of an overall happiness.
Example, someone who is feeling a perfect sensation of pleasure during his whole life but that doesnt like that and is depressed have clearly a bad life, no one would like to live this.
But if hedonism is true then my example is false.
If I'm right, and if hedonism is false, then someone who is suffering his whole life but who is happy with it and wants to continue living have a "good" life.
But to he honest I find these examples really bad, because pain and pleasure are two "only good" or "only bad " things by definition, however a life is full of "neutral" things that you can feel differently.
Quoting Chany
But the way you feel these moments is only up to you, even if by the time most people will forget a bit about their pain, most of what makes a person happy is the way he feel his everyday life.
What makes you like your life, is it your happiness or your ratio good/bad ? It is your happiness which is the final value(positive or negative) that you give to the ratio of good/bad(positive or negative).
Is a life worth living ? Some say yes if you like it(1), some say yes if your ratio good/bad is positive(2), some say yes if your ratio good/bad is only made of good (3).
But there is no answer since life has no purpose, is the purpose of your life to be happy then (1) is right ? Is the purpose of your life to experiment pleasure then (2) or is your life valuable only if you experience the perfection then (3) ?
1: why not.
2: seems retarded.
3: why not. I like it the most.
So, the best is to never be, the second best is either to kill yourself(1) or to be happy(2).
If not 2 then 1.
This is my opinion and, since like i said life has no purpose, everyone is right, so I am right :).
If however you agree with me then you should agree that perfect and incurable depression should lead to suicide.
There is in my mind more evidences that the purpose of life is (1) since this is the final goal of every of our actions,which make it, if not the purpose of life, the purpose of every human being. And if I'm wrong, then please give me an example.
You mean physical pleasure ?
I don't think so. More like when pleasure is detached from anything else, where the goal is pleasure, as opposed to doing something which is pleasurable.
The former is an image which is never lived, a neverending promise ("Just get some more pleasure, then you'll have a worthwhile life" ) which never gets fulfilled, even though it's sought. It can only lead to disappointment because it never gets achived.
When discussing ethics, people often make the mistake of using this abstract notion of pleasure to define motivation and worth. It's forgotten that pleasure must be achieved by a means of living, and the nature of this means is critical. Much of the time doing something which achieves pleasure is exactly what a person does not want to do.
I wouldn't want to have sex while I was writing this post. It would just be distracting and hinder me from doing what was important. Most of our lives are defined by avoiding various actions which would bring pleasure because we have more important things to do.
Yes, for the most part.
There can be pleasure derived from spiritual practice though. Though, I think if you look at it closely it all comes down to physical pleasure,
I like doing philosophy if you know what I mean, haha.
I think that if it is more important it is because it leads to more pleasure, or less overall pain / more overall pleasure to do these things instead of having an immediate satisfaction
Quoting TheWillowOfDarkness
Well i do take drugs time to time and it is because i want to feel good for a period of time (party) , it is not different than anything else that is pleasurable, you do it because it leads to a feeling of pleasure
Quoting Question
It depends what you mean, if i like to cook it is my pleasure to do so and it is not physical, but at the end it is the same thing which happen in my brain as if I was having sex, which is physical.
Well, I had a thread about peoples obsession with sex. Thing is people never be satisfied with it. Schopenhauer would agree. Cioran would say its a waste of time as sadness is the only real thing in life.
Kinda like that rat in a cage?
Some Cioran:
[i]It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.
Man starts over again everyday, in spite of all he knows, against all he knows.[/i]
Don't do that. Mind altering substances only distort life from the real important things in it.
The only thing "wrong" with depression, is that in many of it's forms, it's temporary, ameliorable or curable as is highly evident by numerous (if not most) cases in which it manifests. Otherwise, and ultimatum, what is "right" about depression it is simply the acknowledgement of the "disenchantment of the world". Perhaps this is best expressed by the Hungarian philosopher, László F. Földényi, who argues that there is a dichotomy (but not diremption) between depression, which is medicinal, vs. melancholy, which is an existential weltanschauung
This is not the heart of the issue. The issue is that the individual rebels from the demands of society because he or she (more often males, though feminism is an expression of this rebellion against male privileged ones, which I agree with) feels that something is not right, deep down. Perhaps people with depression are more empathetic or sensitive(defense mechanism?) to the workings of a world that is deterministic or non-deterministic or without objective truths, whereas psychopathic traits seem to be valued and even encouraged in society (reason without emotion is quite literally psychopathy). However, the depression itself is a manifestation for the yearning for objective truth, which sometimes in its deepest forms is seen in the affirmation of death through suicide and that act is objective and clear.
Anyway, the heart of the issue; society is to blame for being depressed, not the individual.
Quoting Question
which are ^^ ?
To live with the expectation that one does not demand from life what one wishes but the situation and fortune he or she have been given, and make the best out of it.
I whish i was that kind of guy.
And anyway taking drugs time to time never kill you, it depends which drug also, in which situation, with who and how often.
Is looking for the Lapis Philosophorum, which is the transmutation of self by some means.
Ahh, the self. Such an abstract concept.
"Thou shalt be a useful adult or else be shamed to exile or death."
The face then falls to the sea and dissolves.
The king is dead, sharks nibble at his cracker body.
There is no light to illuminate the objective world. The massa confusa is undifferentiated chaos.
Will the night last indefinitely?
Ask Heister Eggcart. He would know.
Hanover's face shines forcefully over the hill (everyone is sweating).
Question is bound to the cross between two thieves and in his suffering calls out "My Hanny, My Hanny, why have you forsaken me?"
Hanover responds: I haven't set yet, but in the morning, you'll thank me.
Jesus Christ this is awful.
Perhaps, he thinks these are all language games of frustrated teenagers and young adults. It's possible, however some never make it out alive! *Dum dum dum*...