Fashion and Racism
I’m interested in the role of fashion in regards to racism. For example, several years ago I noticed that when I encountered black people I would sometimes react with what may be considered racist behaviors. Whether it’s making sure my car doors are locked when I find myself in a predominantly black neighborhood, or refraining from making eye contact with a black person I pass on the street. It seems that my default reaction to these encounters is fear. When I noticed this, I tried to analyze these reactions. And, regardless of how this sounds, I’m aware of my intentions, and they are not to discriminate in any way based solely on skin color. I haven’t had any particularly negative experiences with black people, and formed a very close friendship with a black person. I even had a black girlfriend at one time.
And I’m not bringing up these facts to in any way excuse my behavior, or somehow diminish the wrongness of it. But it does seem to indicate that I don’t discriminate against, or feel fearful towards every black person. So, analyzing further, I saw that primarily, and perhaps exclusively, I had these reactions to black people who look and dress a certain way. For example, I don’t believe that if I passed Barack Obama in the street I would have this reaction, as opposed to, say, The Game (rapper). That said, perhaps my “racism” isn’t actually related to race. I mean, the reason why I react this way to a certain look can be attributed to any number of things; the portrayal of black people in media, rap music, etc. Or maybe it’s my fears are warranted in some way?
I believe that black people do intentionally dress in a way to intentionally appear intimidating more often than white people. And the relatively few black people that I have good reason to be cautious around probably dress to appear intimidating. It seems obvious that certain fashion choices are strongly associated with gangs, or “thug” personality types; facial tattoos, bandannas, loud colored clothing, certain hairstyles, etc. After all, there are certainly very few gangsters/thugs who dress like Obama on a regular basis. But regardless, I don’t see any way to deny that my perspective on all of this is viewed through the lens of culture, and therefore biased. So I don’t exactly trust myself to come to a logical conclusion, hence this thread. So what do you all think? Am I a racist? Are my reactions justified? Should things like fashion even be considered a contributing factor to racism/discrimination? Do those discriminated against have any culpability due to their choice of fashion?
And I’m not bringing up these facts to in any way excuse my behavior, or somehow diminish the wrongness of it. But it does seem to indicate that I don’t discriminate against, or feel fearful towards every black person. So, analyzing further, I saw that primarily, and perhaps exclusively, I had these reactions to black people who look and dress a certain way. For example, I don’t believe that if I passed Barack Obama in the street I would have this reaction, as opposed to, say, The Game (rapper). That said, perhaps my “racism” isn’t actually related to race. I mean, the reason why I react this way to a certain look can be attributed to any number of things; the portrayal of black people in media, rap music, etc. Or maybe it’s my fears are warranted in some way?
I believe that black people do intentionally dress in a way to intentionally appear intimidating more often than white people. And the relatively few black people that I have good reason to be cautious around probably dress to appear intimidating. It seems obvious that certain fashion choices are strongly associated with gangs, or “thug” personality types; facial tattoos, bandannas, loud colored clothing, certain hairstyles, etc. After all, there are certainly very few gangsters/thugs who dress like Obama on a regular basis. But regardless, I don’t see any way to deny that my perspective on all of this is viewed through the lens of culture, and therefore biased. So I don’t exactly trust myself to come to a logical conclusion, hence this thread. So what do you all think? Am I a racist? Are my reactions justified? Should things like fashion even be considered a contributing factor to racism/discrimination? Do those discriminated against have any culpability due to their choice of fashion?
Comments (60)
Do women who dress in "revealing" clothing have any culpability when men objectify them? oh shit wrong thread
I'm reporting this to the paragraph police.
Wee woo wee woo *snip*
Seems like a silly question. Are you intimidated by white people with bandannas and loud clothes? Do you wake up from sweaty nightmares where you're being chased by ethnically diverse baggy-pants wearing gangs? Does the very thought of tattoos and non-Obama hairstyles make you want to shit your pants? Or... is it mostly that they're black? You don't need Sigmund Freud or us for this, just a little self-reflection.
He already said it was not the skin colour but the clothes. You are assuming its based on skin colour, with no real basis except being triggered by the topic. Your questions werent sincere questions but rather meant to mock. (Which is fair, if it seems silly to you I suppose). You are assuming that self reflection will show him the answer that you are just...assuming.
A better question than any of yours is:
“Pinprick, would you feel the same way about other ethnicities whose clothing you associated with violent/criminal people such as whites wearing biker gang colours or perhaps well dressed japanese men with chest/back tattoos and missing pinky fingers?”
Pinprick, you do not sound racist to me. That would require you to be reacting to skin colour or race rather than the way someones dressed. You may be guilty of jumping to conclusions based on attire but thats not racist. I think that you may be conditioned to think that because of the race narrative being peddled about these days.
No, I'm not, actually. I'm assuming he's the only one who knows (or could know) what it's based on. And the idea of asking us is a waste of time. And all the not-dressed-like-Obama, bandanna, loud clothes stuff is funny to me.
Oh, ok. It was the “or is it mostly cuz theyre black?” and invitation to self reflect that made me think you had an idea in mind already about his basis. My mistake...you triggered me
Reading it again, it sounded a bit like that. But no, I think it's more likely he isn't racist as it happens.
Still, my mistake.
It is a bit depressing to me someone like Pinprick has to even question whether he himself is racist even when he knows in his own mind he is not. I wish I could blame the race peddlers and lefties (not all lefties) that push the narrative, and I do for their part, but it really comes down to actual racists (of course). They are the force behind it because actual racists draw the lines on race that the rest of us have to defend.
Anyway, if someones actually worried they might be racist then im satisfied that they probably are not.
Funny examples, but yeah I’ve noticed this reaction with white people as well. Have basically no exposure to other ethnicities or races though. Which undoubtedly is also part of the issue, my issue. I guess I was kind of triggered by the comments I was seeing recently that referred to people that behaved as I do as somehow complicit or part of the problem. Which may or may not be true, but if they’re going to make statements like that, then I expect the same level of criticism to be directed at those black people who intentionally dress a certain way in order to appear intimidating or thug-like. That seems fair to me, but I’m not making up the rules. I’d just like some clarity on what those rules are exactly.
Quoting Baden
I would typically agree, but the way the racist label is tossed around I guess it had me second-guessing my actions. But anyway, to expand the topic, I was also wondering about how this could also apply to things like accusations of police profiling. For example, police may very well pull over black people at a higher rate than white people for simple infractions like speeding. Some people, upon seeing this data, will then jump to the conclusion that the police are racially profiling. But, what if a large portion of these people pulled over dress in the way I’ve described? Do police have the right to become literal fashion police? I guess the point I’m getting at is that the issue of racism is much more nuanced than it is portrayed to be. It isn’t as simple as “white person treats black person bad, therefore racism.”
If someone is genuinely concerned about whether they're racist, they are not engaged with that aspect of themselves even if it does exist (and unconscious bias, for example, is something most of us are afflicted with). That to me is a better position morally to be in than someone who doesn't think they're a racist but just doesn't care about racism or any other social prejudices. So, I agree, I don't think self-flagellation is what's needed here, but positive resistance against that in our society and in ourselves that is unjustifiable.
But here, you're falling into talking about "black" people again. If you don't like certain types of clothes, fine, talk about that, but you can't infer from the fact that you find something intimidating that it is intended to be intimidating. And even if it is, so what? In some environments, you need to look intimidating to survive. Again, if white people wearing those clothes also intimidate you, you're not racist, but they are not to "blame" for anything either. They can wear what they like.
Quoting Pinprick
Maybe we should check if George Floyd was wearing a bandanna when he was publically lynched. All these protests for nought... No, this is just stupid.
I agree, not even sure someone just not caring even has a place on a moral scale of any kind. They would be moral or immoral only by accident.
Maybe in some circumstances, but I’d consider it to be common knowledge what type of appearance is associated with gang or thug mentality.
Quoting Baden
Then one should not be chastised for being intimidated or displaying the natural behaviors that occur with this feeling.
Quoting Baden
Very true, and a good point. I guess this illustrates the circular nature of it all. I can’t expect you to not dress intimidatingly if that means you’re less likely to survive. But at the same time you can’t expect me to not be intimidated m.
Quoting Baden
You’re misreading me. Lynching someone is bad regardless of color, clothing, or anything else. I’m just wondering if there are situations that are labeled racist, but that the skin color is just circumstantial, and that maybe their appearance in general aside from their skin color is a contributing factor. That type of situation doesn’t seem all that unlikely to me. But that isn’t to excuse any sort of unprovoked aggression. Again, that is wrong regardless of color, clothing, or anything else.
None of what you mentioned would I associate with anything other than being young and wanting to fit in. Maybe shake off your Obama suit and loosen up, fella.
I think thats correct, that racism is often misapplied to interactions between races. The term racism has been pretty well diluted and I think many things considered racist are not racist at all. One of them is what you are describing, that a black guy going for that gangster look provoking an image of danger that a white person reacts too is racist. Its not.
Hate and a particular ignorance about race is required for racism imo.
Sure, that’s a possibility, but isn’t part of “being young and wanting to fit in” about learning what your ascribing to by “fitting in?” And you only learn by having to experience the consequences of your decision. So if fitting in means that you appear intimidating to the point that other people are afraid to approach you or interact with you, shouldn’t the lesson learned be that “fitting in” isn’t worth it? Shouldn’t you learn that by choosing this appearance you are going to become associated with a negative stereotype of your race, which in turn reinforces racism? Stated more bluntly, if you don’t want to be judged as a negative stereotype, don’t appear to be that stereotype.
:up:
I think that at the heart of modern-day racism isn't views on genetics but essentially associating personality characteristics with races. I don't think it requires any emotional attachment to those associations either. If you think that "x race" are "lazy people" and that's just an opinion and not an effort on your part to be hateful, I'd still call that racism. Any biases based on race can be called racism but what about biases on culture?
I think that's the trickiest part about the race issue because culture exists and you don't have to like it.
The solution to my mind is that you need to be very specific with your language and have terms that make your position clear. If you meet a particular kind of person that is somehow offputting and you describe that kind of person racially then, of course, you're going to get called a racist. You need to use language that doesn't associate the race with the behaviour.
I would say your OP is rather unambiguously racist.
You can say someone looks like a gangster or a hooligan and treat them with suspicion and it's not racist. Once you associate those characteristics to a race and then prejudice against that race because of that association then that's racist.
Vestis virum reddit. Clothes make the man.
Men, women, blacks, whites--all of us, dress to express self, culture, aspiration, politics, class, and so on. There is nothing new about this, though the actual clothes change from time to time. Many people aim for an intimidating edge in their clothing. Upper class women in Manhattan have been observed deploying aggressive maneuvers with accessories for the purpose of intimidation. The business suit, the power tie, the black leather jacket, beards, long hair, short hair, no hair, tattoos, piercings, et al.
There are likely distinct features of black public presentation. Why wouldn't there be? Black culture has features distinct from white culture or any other culture. The way a black man might choose to project the image of power will depend on his particular milieu. To some, the "thug look" is intimidating; to others it makes for an easy dismissal of the subject.
To draw a comparison: Gay white men have deployed distinct features of public presentation. 50 years ago, working class clothing and mustaches were de rigueur among gay men. Some gay men preferred a heavy motorcycle gang vibe. At other times, other places, gay men chose radically different types of clothing.
Clothing is a form of communication to which some attention should be paid. Be prepared for relativism. An outfit that I might consider the height of stupidity, you might consider very subtle.
Me too.
Quoting Judaka
Especially if it’s specifically a culture that primarily only belongs to one group (I.e. black culture) that you’re biased about. I think that discriminating against black culture could be used as an excuse to be racist, for example. “I’m not racist, I just don’t like black culture” becomes indistinguishable from “I don’t like black people.” However, if the former statement is sincere, is it still racist?
Quoting Judaka
The issue is that there are behaviors that are *almost* only associated with a certain race, like a particular style of dress or appearance.
Quoting Judaka
Ok.
Quoting Judaka
I don’t think I’m the one that associated that particular look with black people. Regardless, it seems to be true. Is my stating this truth what’s racist? Also, I don’t have this reaction towards all black people, does that make any difference in your opinion?
You seem to be backpedalling from the position I thought you were taking and saying that it is about black people (and their "look") rather than about particular clothes on anyone. So, I agree with @Judaka now on a less charitable interpretation.
Quoting Pinprick
Yes, but if you only have this reaction to black people then that's racism. You still haven't said you're equally frightened by whites wearing these clothes. Are you?
That’s my fault. I’m using “look” just as a generic term meaning clothing, accessories, and/or hairstyles.
Quoting Baden
Yeah, or whatever particular fashion is equivalent for that particular culture. I thought I said as much here:
Quoting Pinprick
Ok, I'm going to leave it there anyway. As I said before there's an important distinction for me between unconscious and unwanted biases and conscious derogatory attitudes.
I disagree with the idea that there is a "black culture" to begin with and I'd say the term is racist. The thing is that you don't know whether or not people subscribe to "black culture" in the first place. If you're just going to assume someone's characteristics by their culture and their culture by their race then you're assuming characteristics by race which you agreed was racist.
You say that you're indifferent to race but that you have concerns about "rap music" or "gangster" culture that is disproportionately black and this overlap could make you seem racist. Theoretically, that could be true and you could be misjudged for it, to avoid that, it's not necessary to pretend like it's not disproportionately black. However, the where and why you are mentioning it is very important.
Quoting Pinprick
I get what you're saying but as I said, you need to be careful with your language to invoke race as little as possible. Saying that you "refrain from making eye contact with a black person" is very different from saying "someone with tattoos, big muscles and a bandana". Or "I make sure to lock my car doors when I'm in high crime areas".
Like others, I don't think you're a racist but I think that many of things you've said could be easily taken as racist and that you would have to explain further to convince people you're not. You could save yourself the trouble and be more careful with your language.
Interesting. Even though this term is used by black people? As an aside, what are your thoughts on things like cultural appropriation?
Quoting Judaka
Perhaps gang/thug culture would be a better term? But then again, isn’t their variance between different types of gangs? So in order to use that term and be specific you would have to say something like “culture associated with [enter particular gang].”
Quoting Judaka
That makes sense. Point taken.
I don't care what some people say, they aren't spokespeople for their race, races can't even have spokespeople and even if they could I'd still say there's no black culture. Also, I don't acknowledge "cultural appropriation" stupid term.
Quoting Pinprick
is not some guy whose trousers are falling down, more like ripped skinhead neo-Nazis, or Hell's Angels, or even punks. Oh, and American police officers.
Not a bad idea for the racist murderers among them though...
I think this is definitely racially-coded in the US, but I don't think it breaks down strictly along racial lines. I have a hunch that this has a lot to do with whether you're nurtured by the state, or whether you need to look outside of it - which flows into issues of who can rely on the police to back them up, and who can't.
Growing up white & sheltered & middle-class in almost-all-white Maine, I definitely felt this dynamic play out even in the almost-entire absence of race differentiation. I felt all the things 'karens' classicaly feel around other races, but around other white people. (I learned how to see this way of thinking 'outside', while remembering how it was to think it from 'inside' when my family's class status sharply declined in my teens. And then how much starker these differentiations can be, and how they tend to break along race lines when I finally left my home state.)
I think the tldr; is a lot of what's being talked about with 'fashion' has to do with the domination through violence by one group of another (to continuously demonstrate who has the 'monopoloy on legitimate force'), and so it's true it's not entirely a race thing, but in the US the history of how that dynamic plays out is, obviously, deeply,deeply grounded in race, so it's impossible to disentangle the two.
Admittedly, the rest of your post exposes my ignorance of the UK, so I can’t comment on the specific examples you referenced. If you’re asking if certain clothing is typically associated with a particular race, then yes. Du-rags in the US come to mind as an example of that. Is that what you meant?
Respectable clothes are safer, white faces are safer, the familiar is safer. You and I sometimes dress to impress, and black folks sometimes bathe in bleach. And everybody most of the time dress according to local convention, to be part of a group of policemen, or city gents, or burger flippers, or members of some other gang. Young men in groups are always dangerous if they are not working and supervised.
All this is not fact, and it is not ideology, so it is not something one can reasonably argue for or against. One understands and takes account of one's biases, or one ignores and is controlled by them.
Hooray!
Quoting unenlightened
Do you consider this to be good/bad, or does it depend on something else? It seems negative judgements are bad, but no one bothers getting upset at being judged favorably due to appearance, or whatever else that isn’t actions.
Quoting unenlightened
Then what is it? Biology? Are you saying your statements aren’t factual?
Like being short-sighted - I'd rather not be; I try to compensate; I don't demand miracles.
Quoting Pinprick
I'm bothered when I trust someone because they 'look honest' and they ain't.
It's not a fact that white faces are safer, and it's not an ideology for most people either. It's an unconscious prejudice that operates in our lives because it is built into our education and experience. Unfortunately it's a comfortable prejudice if your face fits, and many people don't want to see their own prejudice, or how they benefit from others' prejudice.
Yeah, but the person being judged as such isn’t. That’s what I was referring to.
Quoting unenlightened
Oh, ok. I see what you mean.
No need to see what he means. Don't ask for evidence either.
I’ll show myself to the door.
What? If I want to understand him, then I do need to see what he means. I’m not looking to agree/disagree with him or debate him on his opinion. I was just curious.
No, if you want to see what he means then you need to understand him.
Meaning precedes understanding, and is a requirement for it. For example, I see no meaning in your first post, therefore I don’t understand you, or your point, if there was one.
So you see what someone means without understanding what they mean? That's quite interesting.
I think you mean “without understanding them. And, to answer your question, sometimes. I may see what a statement means, but not understand why it is being stated. Much like your first post, which seemed to claim that I needed to understand him, but not see what he meant or ask for evidence. That statement seems pedantic at best. As if you attempting to make some arbitrary distinction between the phrase “see what you mean” and the term “understand” makes any significant contribution to the conversation or is relevant in any way.
So you see, I saw the meaning of your statement, but not the purpose or intent of it. As a result, I asked what you meant. To be more specific, was that statement sarcastic? Meant to call me out for not pressing unenlightened on his evidence for his claim? Meant to point out some grammatical flaw I made in using the phrase “see what you mean” instead of understand? Something else?
My wife isn't a 6'5" man, and I am a white man not a white woman; but otherwise our experiences are remarkably similar. This will probably not count as evidence, however many times it is repeated. Don't ask me for evidence. Don't fucking ask me for fucking evidence. Don't fucking dare to ask me for fucking evidence.
I did warn you not to ask for evidence.
Sounds like you have some inherent racial bias. Whether you want to admit it or not societal stimuli which imparts negative cultural impressions in this case against black people have surely invaded your subconscious.
Quoting Pinprick
See above post....Perhaps there are levels in racial bias based on your comfort. Regardless of clothing there is an internal racial bias on your part that is subconscious, however these internal biases may become apparent based on living in an impoverished urban community. Perhaps you're making the associations of what you see in media with where you live.
Quoting Pinprick
This is quite offensive. I'm a black man. I'm a professional social worker and I'd be damned if I dress in a way that not only invokes fear but police attention. Again you may have retained some prejudices you haven't really acknowledged and by the above quote, it is quite clear. I am not even sure what "intimidating clothes" looks like considering the style of urban wear are changing.
Quoting Pinprick
Clothing styles may also reflect a social trend, style associated with where one lives or what is considered "in" at the time. No doubt colored bandannas and tattoos associated with their color may have gang references but that is a gang affiliation thing not an ethnic culture thing. Black Americans or all Africans of the diaspora are not homogeneous nor are we a monolith. Obamas dress style reflects his professionalism and his standard of living. Often times clothing reflects where we live, who were are personality wise, where we are in life.
Quoting Pinprick
No. But I think you have some unacknowledged racial prejudices as I've indicated in the above.
That may be true. I’d like to think that it is only in regards to a particular type of black person, but as you say, I’m biased. Black people aren’t only portrayed negatively, and white people are portrayed negatively as well. Why would the bias only work in one case and not the other?
Quoting Anaxagoras
How can you be so sure? How do you differentiate between a racial bias and a clothing(?) bias?
Quoting Anaxagoras
I don’t live in an impoverished urban community, unless you’re meaning something else. In which case I’m misunderstanding you.
Quoting Anaxagoras
No. There’s basically no black people where I live, and the vast majority of those who do dress similar to how everyone else dresses.
Quoting Anaxagoras
It wasn’t meant to be offensive, but I’m not claiming that only black people do this, or that all black people do this. Well, my example wasn’t strictly about clothing, it included tattoos and hairstyles, but if you want to dive into what intimidating clothing is I’ll oblige. Firstly, I believe that humans are wired to interpret certain colors, or hues, as dangerous or threatening in some way. Possibly this is due to the fact that poisonous plants and/or insects are often brightly colored. Secondly, I don’t know about the intricacies of inner city fashion, but I would assume that gang members still have a particular look, generally speaking. Am I wrong? If I were to conjure a guess, I would say that in some circumstances inner city youth idolize this gang/thug mentality, and try to imitate their style in order to feel like they are part of the group. This presents an issue, because it leads to those kids being viewed as gang members. After all, if it looks and walks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. But issues arise when someone is judged as a gang member, but isn’t. So, intimidating clothing can be defined as clothing worn by people who are associated with criminal activity, specifically violence and drug related crimes.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Right, but gangs are often racially or ethnically grouped. For example, MS-13 is a Hispanic gang, correct? So, we have specific gangs whose members are of a specific race/ethnicity, and have a specific style. What then should the default assumption be when I see someone of this specific ethnicity/race exhibiting this specific style?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Of course not. I never insinuated that they were.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Right, but doesn’t the same logic apply to those whose dress reflects their criminality?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Right again, but that’s precisely what I’m doing; judging someone’s personality, intentions, etc. based on their clothing.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Isn’t that what I’m doing in this thread? Exposing my prejudices so that they can be acknowledged and categorized accordingly?
Globally, whites are portrayed favorably. Ask Indians of India. Ask the Japanese and other cultures what pigmentation would they like to be or are encouraged to be?
Quoting Pinprick
Because you said:
Quoting Pinprick
Quoting Pinprick
See above....You...said...black people....You said black people....that means me, my friends from college...everyone that identifies as black.......You did not say some, or those in your community, you said black people.
Quoting Pinprick
Then where does your issues regarding clothing in relation to black people come from? I mean whites dress a certain aggressive way, Asians, Arabs, and other people dress in a certain aggressive way why do you single out black people if you don't live in an impoverished community because I wonder where it comes from?
Quoting Pinprick
So why do you fear black people who dress in a particular clothing?
Quoting Pinprick
You need to formulate your words differently between black people, some black people, or black people you know or are around.
Quoting Pinprick
Sure based on demographics.
Quoting Pinprick
A gang member nothing more. MS-13 is a Salvadorian gang but that is not an accurate representation of people who live in El Salvador. It is a gang nothing more.
Quoting Pinprick
But you have when you said "Black people" instead of saying some or those who you live with.
Quoting Pinprick
No you're not because you keep saying black people. Not some, nor those who you live around, but black people. That was a general statement you've made.
Quoting Pinprick
You are. I'm just giving you a perspective as a black man and how it appears to me.
I’m not arguing against this. My point is that all races are sometimes portrayed negatively, and all races are sometimes portrayed favorably. It seems like in light of this, the question is how much negative portrayal is needed to form a racial bias? IOW’s why am I not biased towards other races I’ve seen be negatively portrayed? And that question is meant to be hypothetical, not an admission to only being biased against black people.
Quoting Anaxagoras
So you differentiate between racial and clothing biases based on the use of the term “black people?” I guess that is my mistake then, but I thought it was clear that I was only referring to a specific type of black person. After this clarification, does your position still stand?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Specifically when I’ve traveled and encountered the types of black people I’ve described. If you’re looking for an explanation, it’s that I associate the type of black person I’ve described with violence/aggression due to him appearing to be a gang member. And that is the case because gang members are violent and have a similar appearance.
BTW, should I be offended or consider you to be racially biased since you didn’t say some white people, Asians, or Arabs?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Ok. I advise you do the same.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Ok, and what should the default reaction be to someone you assume is a gang member?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Your perspective is appreciated.
Sure.
Quoting Pinprick
Media and consistency. If you can convince the world an ethnic group is bad over time people will believe it.
Quoting Pinprick
What I’m saying is you’re making generalizations and not carefully placing your words.
Quoting Pinprick
When you say blacks (plural) or “black people” you’re making it clear you’re castigating an entire group. As far as differentiating I guess because I live in California and exposed to different groups of people, I don’t associate clothing with ethnicity. However there are cultural trends that other cultures adopt.
Quoting Pinprick
Then just say gang members. Don’t say “I think black people dress aggressively on purpose” because clearly your categorizing a certain behavior with a clothing type.
Quoting Pinprick
No because I was making a point of you singling out one specific ethnic group. To demonstrate your knack of racial bias. I mean you sure didn’t mention the Hells Angels of Nazi Skin heads or the Yakuza.
Quoting Pinprick
I didn’t begin this thread with a generalization, you did.
Quoting Pinprick
SMH. I mean gang signs for one. Tagging, tattoos, where you’re located at for starters.
Really? Not even sombreros or burkas?
Quoting Anaxagoras
I’m speaking specifically about black people who dress like gang members. I’m willing to make the statement that black gang members have a distinct look that is distinguishable from gang members of other races. So when I refer to black people within the context of this thread, that is the group I’m referring to. Therefore, just saying “gang members” isn’t appropriate. Firstly because that term is more general than the group I’m discussing, and secondly because I’m not going to assume that every black person dressed this way is an actual gang member. Most likely the vast majority of them that I have encountered are not.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Because I have no known interactions with with either group, or people who appear to belong to either group. Therefore, I can’t say whether or not I would feel intimidated and have the same response or not. Presumably I would, but I would never be viewed as racist against white people, who I assume make up the majority of the Hells Angels and Skinheads, considering that I’m white as well.
Quoting Anaxagoras
I’m generalizing all black people who appear to be gang members, as gang members. That’s it. Doing so seems justified to me, but like I mentioned in an earlier post, others view doing so as racist.
Quoting Anaxagoras
I mean how should I react when I see a black person that looks like a gang member? Should I be cautious and avoid eye contact, etc.?
I acknowledge that sombreros are a Mexican tradition, and Burkas are an Afghanistanian tradition, but I don't look at someone's clothing and say "yeah he dresses like a Mexican" because for one, I don't know their nationality just by observing them and two, more ethnic cultures are not homogenous.
Quoting Pinprick
There is no gang attire per se, however there are pieces of clothing that can be gang affiliated. I mean, if I sag my pants, or wear a particular brand of shoe that doesn't necessarily mean one is in a gang.
Quoting Pinprick
That is false. For someone who lives in an area that doesn't have many blacks you're making a lot of assumptions here.
Quoting Pinprick
I wonder why you're singling out black people period. I mean there are dangerous white bikers who dress a certain way, not sure why you're not mentioning them. My question is why black people in general? You could've picked any other ethnic group.
Quoting Pinprick
No it is appropriate because all black gang members don't dress alike. I know, I grew up in the lifestyle and have family in that lifestyle.
Quoting Pinprick
So maybe you should have changed your thread to "black people, fashion, and racism" then. Because the title is to broad because all you want to do is discuss about black people.
Quoting Pinprick
I wonder what this has to do with philosophy because you don't even know how gang members dress to begin with.
Quoting Pinprick
You really need to do some self-reflection and check your own biases.
Quoting Pinprick
No. Grow some balls look them in the eye and acknowledge them like a human being.
/End Thread
That’s not what I’m doing either. I’m not saying someone dresses like a black person, I’m saying they dress like a gang member.
Quoting Anaxagoras
I agree, and interpret those pieces of clothing as markers or signals that the person wearing them may be a gang member, and judge them accordingly.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Ok, but there are clothing styles that can be eliminated, right? Do black gang members typically wear leather jackets, dress suits, etc.?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Because this thread is about my personal experience. I haven’t encountered anyone other than black people that appeared to be gang members.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Yeah, there are definitely dangerous people that belong to other gangs and ethnicities, but I haven’t encountered them. Also, I would never question whether or not I was racist if my reactions were directed towards a member of my own race.
Quoting Anaxagoras
I don’t know if that’s true or not. Could you give me a couple examples? But either way, just saying gang members excludes those that are not gang members, but appear to be.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Maybe, but when racism is talked about in America, it’s almost exclusively about black people.
Quoting Anaxagoras
Do black gang members not typically have tattoos, bandannas, brightly colored clothing, or loose fitting pants?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Umm... ok?
Quoting Anaxagoras
First of all, if I did this, and my assumption was correct, would it increase my likelihood of being harassed, mugged, etc.? If so, then how is that the correct action to take?
Quoting Anaxagoras
Lol, nice try, but you may exit the conversation any time you feel the need to do so. Although, I hope you stick around.
Maybe you should change your environment.
Why, so I can be exposed to more gang members? :lol:
SMH