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Are We All Astronauts?

TheMadFool June 16, 2020 at 21:32 6225 views 21 comments
It's an old story that one of the biggest obstacles to space travel is our primitive technology. Yes, despite space exploration being the most advanced branch of human technology, we still haven't solved the very basic problems of space travel, one of which is how to build a self-sustaining biological environment(SSBE) for space-farers of the future. I suppose if we could construct a spaceship that can replenish oxygen, absorb carbondioxide, recycle the water, and so on and so forth, it would completely revolutionize space travel.

The way I see it, the answer is hidden in plain sight, it lies right under our noses or, more precisely, under our feet. What exactly is earth, the planets and the sun, taken together? The sun is an almost infinite source of energy, the earth is a system that utilizes this energy to support a self-sustaining air-water-food system, and the other planets are their for us to colonize later on as the sun evolves into a red giant (?). The entire setup seems to be one colossal SSBE - something astronauts can only dream of at the present.

Is the solar system a giant spaceship? :chin:

Comments (21)

Frank Apisa June 16, 2020 at 21:38 #424500
Certainly seems to be.

It also is a time machine.
Pfhorrest June 16, 2020 at 23:58 #424522
The point of building an artificial SSBE is to do all of the stuff that the Earth and Sun do, but in a smaller, more portable form, that can travel.

The Earth and Sun together definitely do do that already, and they are in space, but they're not very portable.

Have you not heard the expression "Spaceship Earth" before?
TheMadFool June 17, 2020 at 00:00 #424523
Reply to Pfhorrest :up: :smile: Thanks
Pfhorrest June 17, 2020 at 00:02 #424525
Reply to TheMadFool NP :-)

FWIW, as non-portable as the Earth may be, I expect in the very long run (late life cycle of the Sun) it will be more effective to move the Earth to stay in the changing habitable zone than it will be to make very un-Earth-like bodies sufficiently Earth-like for the people who are accustomed to Earth.

There is also a lot of engineering that can be done on our starship's engine (the sun) to make it much more efficient and longer-lived. Build a Dyson sphere to harness more of its energy, then star lift it to prolong its life, and build a stellar engine to make it more portable.
TheMadFool June 17, 2020 at 01:19 #424541
Reply to Pfhorrest I had some other ideas involving a nuclear reactor, artificial gravity and plants capable of photosynthesis using infra-red EM waves.
Outlander June 17, 2020 at 03:30 #424552
Reply to TheMadFool

An interesting concept. So the planet is like a biome powered by a nuclear fusion reactor (the Sun) and presumably it or the larger system is traveling somewhere.

I think the better question is are we going toward something or fleeing from it? What is it?

Reminded of a bit of theory I read on another forum. Something about how humans are the only organism that is born utterly helpless and unable to walk. Animals are largely self sufficient or at least able to walk or whatever their mode of travel is pretty quickly. His theory was this allows us to adapt to whatever gravity we happen to be subject to at the time. Think about it..
180 Proof June 17, 2020 at 16:09 #424651
We're gaianauts not astronauts. Not even "astronauts" are actual astronauts. Ad astra ex machina? :nerd:

Quoting TheMadFool
... we still haven't solved the very basic problems of space travel, one of which is how to build a self-sustaining biological environment(SSBE) for space-farers of the future.

I disagree that "SSBE" is "one of the very basic problems of space travel". It's an advanced problem and only matters once the following "basic problems" are solved:

(A) [s]space elevator[/s] orbital skyhook (or launch loop) to lower $ cost to "pennies per kilo" per launch to low earth orbit (LEO)

(B) relativistic propulsion systems for intra-stellar and inter-stellar transits (e.g. Alcubierre drive)

(C) fuelless energy generation (e.g. Bussard ramjet)

(D) effective long-duration solar & cosmic rays radiation shielding (e.g. hollow asteroid spaceship)

(E) effective shielding @ relativistic velocities for "dust" & micro-meteorite impacts shielding (e.g. hollow asteroid spaceship)

And as I suggested here

180 Proof, 3-12-07:(https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/380306)

Btw, deep space travel is for machines -- the tinier the better -- Von Neumann self-replicating/nano-fabricators, and not living organisms (e.g. hard radiation exposure is too lethal, transport size increases likelihood of hazardous particulate impacts, life-support limitations & extreme durations between destinations, etc) which exponentially compound the costs/risks.

"SSBE" probably is, or will be, irrelevant. The only scenario that makes sense - given the hazards of space to the integrity of complex organic molecules, let alone vastly more complex organisms, and the light-year scales of distances & durations from here to any other star system (or even to farthest edge of Oort Cloud (c50k au)) - is to send advance robotic probes and autonomous AI-ships as extensions of Terrestrial intelligence into interstellar space and then eventually across the Milky Way galaxy. Such AI-ships could carry genomic information that could be 'compiled like programs' into comparable organic DNA-like materials within non-terrestrial biospheres to "seed" homo sapiens 'templates' throughout the galaxy in order for them to adapt to xeno-ecologies and evolve beyond their distant ancestrial-terrestrial species. These AI-"seed" ships might even discover, millennia in the future, the "alien AI-ships" which might have once "seeded" earth with proto-hominids. :gasp:
Kenosha Kid June 17, 2020 at 16:53 #424662
Reply to 180 Proof

(A) is a question of cost. We can get living humans to wherever a space elevator might go, it just ain't cheap.
(B) - (C) is a question of time, linked to the problem of keeping humans alive in transit, and without (B), (E) disappears.
In short, if we could put pregnant human females into stasis indefinitely, we only have to tackle (D). Now we're probably more than halfway there on that one: we've already sent a probe out of the solar system.

A more workable solution is, once we've solved the indefinite stasis problem, to send out a great number of such vessels. Sure, most of them will be destroyed, some will go off course, some will have failures in the stasis system, but we only need one, right? So take a statistical approach! And, if it seems misogynistic to sacrifice so many women, bear in mind I'm all but ensuring that the first non-terrestrial human civilisation will be a matriarchy. Though if we forgot to send seeds to the destination several hundred years earlier, it might be a short-lived cannibal matriarchy, but what a movie!
ssu June 17, 2020 at 18:43 #424676
Quoting 180 Proof
The only scenario that makes sense - is to send advance robotic probes and the autonomous AI-ships as extensions of Terrestrial intelligence into interstellar space and then eventually across the Milky Way galaxy.

Even if 180 Proof is here talking about interstellar space, I have to add that this "not making sense" argument has been used against any human exploration of space. We are intended for Earth, so let machines take care of things anywhere else.

That humans even bothered to go to the Moon is something out of the normal. Even if we would have the technology, there's actually not the desire.
180 Proof October 08, 2021 at 16:24 #605173
Reply to TheMadFool :nerd:

[i]To Boldy Go
Where No Nonagenarian
Has Gone Before[/i]
(Stardate 12.10.21)

https://deadline.com/2021/10/william-shatner-terrified-space-trip-jeff-bezos-1234852430/ :monkey:
T Clark October 08, 2021 at 19:14 #605206
Quoting TheMadFool
It's an old story that one of the biggest obstacles to space travel is our primitive technology.


I think the biggest obstacle is the speed of light.
Deleted User October 08, 2021 at 19:25 #605207
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
TheMadFool October 09, 2021 at 03:29 #605266
Quoting 180 Proof
To Boldy Go
Where No Nonagenarian
Has Gone Before
(Stardate 12.10.21)

https://deadline.com/2021/10/william-shatner-terrified-space-trip-jeff-bezos-1234852430/ :monkey:


:lol: What happened to all the talk about how astronauts have to be in peak physical & mental condition for spaceflights?

Quoting T Clark
I think the biggest obstacle is the speed of light.


I'm about 99.99% certain that there's a workaround for that problem. Hint: To change location from point A to point B, do we really have to literally traverse the distance AB?

Quoting tim wood
And Larry Niven's Ringworld.


:ok:
180 Proof October 09, 2021 at 03:58 #605273
Quoting TheMadFool
I'm about 99.99% certain that there's a workaround for that problem. Hint: To change location from point A to point B, do we really have to literally traverse the distance AB?

Such as?

Reply to TheMadFool The old man is only a passenger. "Astronauts" are crewmembers who operate and maintain the space craft. Think of airline flight crew (trained, fit) vs passengers (fat assed, spoiled). "Captain Kirk" is only a tourist (& Bezos' marketing prop). LLAP, Fool. :smirk:
TheMadFool October 09, 2021 at 04:40 #605282
Quoting 180 Proof
Such as?


All time favorite space travel trope: wormholes

There maybe other ways: According to Inflation Theory, space is being created - between the galaxies. Can we not reverse the process - destroy space? :chin:

Quoting 180 Proof
The old man is only a passenger. "Astronauts" are crewmembers who operate and maintain the space craft. Think of airline flight crew (trained, fit) vs passengers (fat assed, spoiled). "Captain Kirk" is only a tourist (& Bezos' marketing prop). LLAP, Fool. :smirk:


:ok:
180 Proof October 09, 2021 at 05:30 #605290
Quoting TheMadFool
All time favorite space travel trope: wormholes

We'd need to be able to generate massive amounts of negative energy (e.g. "anti-gravity" à la inflation???) on both ends of the wormhole to open and then keep it open long enough for anything larger than a subatomic particle(?) to transverse it. And you'd have to open the wormhole from both ends, it seems, which means you'd have to travel from A to B through normal space anyway. Megaengineering (interplanetary, interstellar) infrastructure? Way too improbable (for us any century / millennium soon) to be plausible.

There maybe other ways: According to Inflation Theory, space is being created - between the galaxies. 

I don't think so. Space expands (inflates like a balloon, or warps) and is not "created".

Can we not reverse the process - destroy space?

Even if this question made sense (to me it doesn't), I suspect that would requires generating energy on the scale of cosmic inflation itself. (NB: :nerd: Perhaps a Kardashev Type IV civilization might(?) attain the requisite technological capacity (we Earthlings are currently no more than a Type 0.7 civilization). IIRC, Niven's "Ringworld Engineers" are considered a Type II civilization.)
TheMadFool October 09, 2021 at 05:34 #605291
Quoting 180 Proof
expands


Then contraction (of space) should be possible.
TheMadFool October 09, 2021 at 05:37 #605292
Reply to 180 Proof Maybe there's an intergalactic pandemic (Super COVID-19) and inflation is some kinda social distancing measure! :grin:
180 Proof October 09, 2021 at 07:33 #605305
Reply to TheMadFool Same problem: artificially generating and/or controlling a stellar / supermassive black hole. Not going to happen based on current physics or engineering – we're nowhere near (maybe ever?) being a Type II civilization, Fool. You might as well speculate on how "Dorothy clicking the heels of her ruby slippers" works and using that "magic" to transport FTL to Alpha Centuri.
TheMadFool October 09, 2021 at 09:44 #605316
Quoting 180 Proof
Same problem: artificially generating and/or controlling a stellar / supermassive black hole. Not going to happen based on current physics or engineering – we're nowhere near (maybe ever?) being a Type II civilization, Fool. You might as well speculate on how "Dorothy clicking the heels of her ruby slippers" works and using that "magic" to transport FTL to Alpha Centuri.


:lol: :up:

T Clark October 09, 2021 at 17:13 #605365
Quoting 180 Proof
I don't think so. Space expands (inflates like a balloon, or warps) and is not "created".


But I think the zero-point energy density of space is always a constant and greater than 0. I don't see that as necessarily contradicting what you have written.