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Contradictions in the universe.

Benj96 May 23, 2020 at 14:15 8725 views 62 comments
We've all come across a paradox or two during our lifetimes, be it the grandfather paradox made famous by several iconic films, the liar paradox, paradox of free will, Russells, the list of examples is seemingly endless and spans all range of disciplines from science and mathematics to philosophy and linguistics. Even chemistry and biology have several between them.

So why on earth would paradoxes be built into the universe? Are contradictions fundamentally necessary? Do paradoxes somehow govern the laws of nature or obey some true laws of nature we have yet to discover? Or are they merely generated by false assumptions regarding the subject of the paradox - A fallacy in the understanding of how time works for example. Or where the self ends and begins. Or the meaning of language?

Perhaps the universe has no paradoxes only assumptions. And those assumptions when combined correctly contradict eachother just as one persons belief or lifestyle may contradict anothers only if they were to encounter one another. Could paradoxes simply be a by-product of conscious awareness. A necessary boundary to allow limitless imagination, speculation and query in a universe that otherwise may just have determined laws and strict defined regulation that would not permit the fluidity or plasticity of thought and combination of ideas that the mind can and does generate.

Is argument itself not the ultimate paradox? Should you ever consider an idea or hold a belief you will inadvertently encounter opposition. Why is there rarely unanimity of thought between conscious beings? Is the sensation of self, of ego, of ones success in a limited existence paradoxic to anothers? Ones wealth, anothers poverty. Ones authority, anothers submission.

If there is any ultimate truth out there it certainly would demonstrate the contradictory nature of its pursuit. The transience of agreement and the overwhelming lack of logic to many aspects of experience. What do you think a paradox is and why it exists? Is there anything in common that links paradoxes together? Could it be one simple rule that manifests as a different contradiction when applied to different disciplines? All views encouraged and welcome :)

Comments (62)

Deleted User May 23, 2020 at 16:55 #415241
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
EnPassant May 23, 2020 at 17:21 #415249
Quoting Benj96
So why on earth would paradoxes be built into the universe?


I don't believe they are. I think paradoxes are superficial. They are limitations on language and defects in human thinking. In Russell's Paradox the statement is:

"The set of all sets that are not members of themselves." Immediately we have a problem because the statement assumes that this entity [I]is[/i] a set, but it is not, as the paradox shows.

It needs to be restated as:

"All sets that are not members of themselves."

Now we can ask the question What is this entity if it is not a set? See my entry on R.Paradox. in the mathematics thread.
jgill May 23, 2020 at 19:28 #415282
Quoting tim wood
But if they're to be resolved, it must be in and on the ground from which they came . . .


One of the weirdest is Banach-Tarski, and that one arises if one assumes the Axiom of Choice. Discard the AOC and it goes away. Another, the Diagonal Paradox, is simply a matter of perspective and magnification.
Deleted User May 23, 2020 at 19:55 #415293
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
jgill May 23, 2020 at 23:31 #415317
B-T depends upon the Axiom of Choice. This shows how "dangerous" it is to simply add new axioms to ZF. One would think that AOC is obvious and of little consequence, but not so. It takes one away from the world in which we actually live and plunks us down in another universe.

For a more palatable paradox, there is Braess' Paradox (which has been employed in a number of major cities):

For each point of a road network, let there be given the number of cars starting from it and the destination of the cars. Under these conditions, one wishes to estimate the distribution of traffic flow. Whether one street is preferable to another depends not only on the quality of the road, but also on the density of the flow. If every driver takes the path that looks most favourable to them, the resultant running times need not be minimal. Furthermore, it is indicated by an example that an extension of the road network may cause a redistribution of the traffic that results in longer individual running times
Banno May 24, 2020 at 01:39 #415331
Paradoxes are not built into the world. Rather they are the result of not saying things well. They are errors in the grammar we chose. They may be dissolved when we choose a different grammar.
Streetlight May 24, 2020 at 01:52 #415332
frank May 24, 2020 at 02:15 #415335
Quoting Banno
Paradoxes are not built into the world. Rather they are the result of not saying things well. They are errors in the grammar we chose. They may be dissolved when we choose a different gramm


What a weird thing to assert.
Banno May 24, 2020 at 02:24 #415336
Reply to frank It's how it works. You gota problem?
frank May 24, 2020 at 02:30 #415339
Quoting Banno
It's how it works.


How do you know that?
Banno May 24, 2020 at 02:33 #415340
Reply to frank Philosophical investigations.

Is this another discussion where you start to be interesting and then disappear?
frank May 24, 2020 at 02:37 #415343
Reply to Banno I come here for sanity breaks. I'm not trying accomplish anything big. You?
Deleted User May 24, 2020 at 03:27 #415349
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
jgill May 24, 2020 at 03:40 #415353
Reply to Banno Banach-Tarski is merely the result of bad grammar? :roll:

Maybe by "grammar" you mean math here, and the AOC is "bad grammar"
Banno May 24, 2020 at 05:37 #415369
Quoting jgill
Banach-Tarski is merely the result of bad grammar?


Well, yes; a grammar that accepts AOC as against a grammar that does not.
Streetlight May 24, 2020 at 06:03 #415372
Reply to Banno With the caveat that grammars are neither good nor bad as they stand; only that they are better and worse for some purposes, and not others. But yes - paradoxes are grammar - techniques - pushed to where they ought not go.
Banno May 24, 2020 at 06:09 #415376
TheMadFool May 24, 2020 at 06:12 #415378
What's the difference between being in the wilderness without a compass and being in the wilderness with a broken compass?
Banno May 24, 2020 at 06:51 #415393
Reply to TheMadFool You might be able to fix the broken compass.
TheMadFool May 24, 2020 at 07:09 #415396
Quoting Banno
You might be able to fix the broken compass


How would you know if the compass is fixed?
Becky May 24, 2020 at 07:37 #415402
Mathematical paradox is defined “ In any instant, a moving object is indistinguishable from a nonmoving object: Thus motion is impossible.” we are trapped by time.
frank May 24, 2020 at 10:01 #415417
Quoting Banno
Philosophical investigations.


I'm just suspicious about going from a little reasoning to a statement about how the world works.

An experiment that shows the truth of what you're saying would be better.
Banno May 24, 2020 at 10:17 #415424
[quote="frank;415417]...a little reasoning...[/quote]
...over two hundred pages; and thousands more in secondary literature.
frank May 24, 2020 at 10:25 #415426
Reply to Banno
The Summa Theologica has 3020 pages in the hard cover edition.
Banno May 24, 2020 at 10:28 #415428
Reply to frank Yes, indeed; quantity does not equate to quality.

What's this conversation about? What do you want?
frank May 24, 2020 at 10:36 #415433
Banno May 24, 2020 at 10:48 #415438
Reply to frank A summary in ten words or less?

Read PI. Or @Sam26's notes. I'm sure not motivated by you to put in the effort.
frank May 24, 2020 at 10:53 #415441
Reply to Banno

You're missing my point. Reasoning gives you a hypothesis. And maybe you meant that, you just left out "My favorite hypothesis is..."
Banno May 24, 2020 at 11:11 #415448
Quoting frank
You're missing my point.


yep.
Marchesk May 24, 2020 at 11:48 #415455
The double slit and various related experiments do come close to suggesting the universe likes paradox. But probably we just don't understand what's going on.
Becky May 24, 2020 at 12:19 #415464
True, we try to understand. That’s why we’re on this forum. Religion was formed because people didn’t understand nature the stars etc. We still do not know about death. So religion still exists. I do not believe in religion as I believe it is used to keep people ignorant. Easier to control them if they’re ignorant. I like to question things, and learn new things. How was the universe started? Is there a reason to be? What is your reason to be?
SophistiCat May 24, 2020 at 13:20 #415474
Quoting Marchesk
The double slit and various related experiments do come close to suggesting the universe likes paradox. But probably we just don't understand what's going on.


No, it doesn't, and yes, we do. This is a typical situation where informal or sloppy language can result in an apparent paradox. IOW Reply to Banno is right.
frank May 24, 2020 at 13:51 #415483
Quoting Banno
yep.


You're a rationalist. Kind of rare in this century. :grin:
Becky May 24, 2020 at 15:13 #415495
Banjo is right that “ grammars are neither good nor bad as they stand; only that they are better and worse for some purposes, and not others. But yes - paradoxes are grammar - techniques - pushed to where they ought not go.” I don’t speak well, however I love math, computers, chemistry. Those languages make sense, and are concise. Grammar can be flowery and deceptive.
EnPassant May 24, 2020 at 17:05 #415517
Quoting Marchesk
The double slit and various related experiments do come close to suggesting the universe likes paradox. But probably we just don't understand what's going on.


A post of mine from the thread 'Existence of an external universe'-

There are two spacetimes, quantum spacetime and physical spacetime. Quantum spacetime is an n-dimensional spacetime (it has been suggested n = 10 or 11). Physical spacetime is 4-dimensional. This effectively means there are two universes.

The physical universe is an emergent property of the quantum universe of energy. It is 'conjured up' from quantum spacetime.

When there is an n-dimensional event in the quantum universe that event is reduced from n dimensions to 4 dimensions so n - 4 dimensions of information are lost. More so, a quantum event is registered in the physical universe as a physical trace effect. eg a spot on a photographic plate is a trace effect. But these trace effects are necessarily physical 4 dimensional objects in the physical universe while the event that caused them is an n-dimensional event in the non physical universe of energy. So physicists are reduced to trying to measure an n-dimensional event with a 4-dimensional ruler. No wonder quantum physics is weird.
Becky May 24, 2020 at 17:17 #415522
Wow! How would you prove that? How do you know there’s only 10 or 11? Maybe there’s 20. However, I do agree there is a non-physical universe of energy. We are trapped.
EnPassant May 24, 2020 at 19:12 #415546
Quoting Becky
Wow! How would you prove that?


I'm just going by what the scientists tell us. If a quantum event is n-dimensional and the only way to physically measure it is in a 4-dimensional world, n - 4 dimensions of information are lost.

Take a 3-dimensional object. Project its shadow on a 2-dimensional surface. You can see that 1 dimension of information is lost.
Banno May 24, 2020 at 23:13 #415642
Quoting EnPassant
This effectively means there are two universes.


Well, no. There is still only one universe, with two descriptions.
EnPassant May 25, 2020 at 10:11 #415813
Quoting Banno
Well, no. There is still only one universe, with two descriptions.


It depends on what 'universe' is referring to. If we are talking in terms of geometry there are two spacetimes, quantum and physical. As far as measurement is concerned it comes to the same thing. I find that conceiving things in terms of two spacetimes makes things easier to grasp. When it comes to measurement the difference is semantic.
Metaphysician Undercover May 25, 2020 at 10:29 #415818
Reply to EnPassant
So the problem is semantical rather than grammatical. That makes more sense.
EnPassant May 25, 2020 at 16:25 #415935
Quoting Becky
I do agree there is a non-physical universe of energy.


I think it was Bohr that said it is meaningless to say where a particle is outside detection. Where was it before detection? Nowhere. If by 'where' we are talking about a location in the physical universe then it was nowhere because a particle is not in the physical universe until it is detected*

Detection is when a particle collides with the physical universe/spacetime. This collision is registered as a trace effect on, for example, a photographic plate. Prior to the registration the particle was 'elsewhere' but not in the physical universe.

*Specifically, they are never in physical spacetime, they only leave trace effects here.
3017amen May 26, 2020 at 14:03 #416278
Quoting Benj96
So why on earth would paradoxes be built into the universe?


Nice OP!

One can easily think of paradox as the metaphoric intrinsic evil (tree of knowledge), or lack of perfection and/or inability to understand the true nature of our existence, so on and so forth. Kant, was one of many who raised the concern. Metaphysical questions try to help satisfy this curiosity and/or sense of wonderment.

One could also imagine a possible world where a different vocabulary or language could help resolve or even completely eliminate paradox, based upon the so-called cosmological conditions (think of the idea behind Glossolalia/speaking in tongues). In short, imagine a world where there is no contradiction and paradox, would there exist a different vocabulary… .

Quoting Benj96
Is there anything in common that links paradoxes together?


We know the sciences discovered paradox (physics and cognitive). And we know Philosophy uncovered it. Christian philosophy tried to capture it in the book of Ecclesiastes. And the concept of Love still brings that notion of perplexity into reality-what is perfect Love.

When I find paradox, contradiction, or similar irrational behavior I find truth. A common truth of being in a state of finitude if you like. Ask why movies with an underlying existential theme like Forrest Gump (or at least some scenes in Scarface, Castaway, etc., etc.) were so popular back in the day.

Cognitively, as it relates to the human condition, I wonder if fear has something to do with it... (?). In other words, should we embrace paradox and contradiction, or try to deny its existence. (Should we care about it or ignore its implications.) What kinds of truth's are worth exploring, and can the way we think about truth help mitigate this angst...

Again, nice Post!






ChatteringMonkey May 26, 2020 at 14:14 #416282
Reply to Benj96

To the point of the OP...

The first thing one needs to understand that the universe or reality or whatever... cannot contradictory by itself, or rather it doesn't make sense to say that it is or not. Only the things we say about it can be. Contradictions are a language thing only.
3017amen May 26, 2020 at 15:39 #416297
Quoting ChatteringMonkey
Contradictions are a language thing only.


For those who believe it is exclusively a language thing, what transcends language?

Example: A physical paradox is an apparent contradiction in physical descriptions of the universe.
(What can transcend physical descriptions; what is our perception of Time itself?) In other words, objectively describe your perception of Time.
ChatteringMonkey May 26, 2020 at 16:25 #416311
Reply to 3017amen

I have no idea what you are getting at. What transcends language, what do you mean? Lots of things transcend language, it's just a tool we use to communicate and describe the world.

It only applies to language because you need statements in the form of say X = Y and X does not = Y to be able to speak of a contradiction... the universe itself is not made up out of statements that can contradict eachother, so it doesn't make sense to say that contradictions or paradoxes are build into the universe.
EnPassant May 26, 2020 at 18:09 #416331
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
So the problem is semantical rather than grammatical. That makes more sense.


No, I'm saying you can call it a spacetime or a universe, it comes to the same thing concerning what I'm saying about the loss of information.
3017amen May 26, 2020 at 19:02 #416345
Quoting ChatteringMonkey
the universe itself is not made up out of statements that can contradict eachother, so it doesn't make sense to say that contradictions or paradoxes are build into the universe.


Are you sure? Isn't mathematics yet another metaphysical language or conceptual abstract that describes the universe? Accordingly, how should one reconcile things like the Time paradox, expanding Universe/space v. static Galaxies, etc. through what means and method?

Short of the usual language paradox's associated with a priori logic (self referential statements) you seem to be excluding the deeper questions of existence.The perception of time is the most obvious unresolved paradox that is built into the universe, otherwise, physicists would have discovered a ToE.

Consider breaking down the definition of human perception. Is the perception of time a language onto itself? What means and method is not contradictory in perceiving time? Is self-awareness a metaphysical language?
Banno May 26, 2020 at 22:48 #416420
Reply to 3017amen You seem to think you are saying something coherent. I'm not so sure.
Quoting ChatteringMonkey
I have no idea what you are getting at.

Nor I. Although I agree with the bit about the bible being full of paradox.


3017amen May 26, 2020 at 23:32 #416440
Quoting Banno
I'm not so sure.


Banno!

Good point The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand. Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
Banno May 26, 2020 at 23:46 #416443
Quoting 3017amen
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is,


You sure 'bout that?

Quoting 3017amen
Consider breaking down the definition of human perception. Is the perception of time a language onto itself? What means and method is not contradictory in perceiving time? Is self-awareness a metaphysical language?


You see, this paragraph does not ask anything, Despite the question marks. It's not like "What time is is?", it's like "Why is a raven like a writing desk?". If you want an answer you ought be somewhat more forthcoming as to what you ask.

This is what we call philosophical analysis.

It's what we do around here.

Yep, it's not like theology, where you just make stuff up.
3017amen May 26, 2020 at 23:52 #416446
Quoting Banno
This is what we call philosophical analysis.


Are you absolutely certain about that?

Please share your description of time without paradox.



Banno May 26, 2020 at 23:55 #416449
Reply to 3017amen Do cats eat bats?

OR, when challenged, change the topic.

Do bats eat cats?

3017amen May 27, 2020 at 12:41 #416598
Quoting Banno
Do bats eat cats?


Quoting Banno
This is what we call philosophical analysis.




Banno!

How is that working for you!?

LOL

When you get time (no pun intended) I think we would still love to learn about your description of Time without paradox!
Becky June 07, 2020 at 14:17 #421268
What about Schrödinger's cat? The act of observance changes the physical entity.
Ugesh June 07, 2020 at 18:44 #421329
The universe is perfect. The paradox is a perception of our own limited mind :)
Becky June 07, 2020 at 18:50 #421332
Perfection is only perceived within your own mind. We are all chemical beings.
jgill June 07, 2020 at 18:58 #421339
Quoting Becky
What about Schrödinger's cat? The act of observance changes the physical entity.


That may or may not be the case. There is always a risk in magnifying a speculative quantum property to the macro world. The only substantive knowledge about the tiny realm is the mathematics that correctly predicts results. :chin:
Becky June 07, 2020 at 19:07 #421345
“May or not be the case” is what you state. Show me your sources.
Banno June 07, 2020 at 21:07 #421387
Reply to 3017amen Chairs. Chairs transcend language. There are chairs, regardless of what you might say about them.

Becky June 07, 2020 at 21:11 #421389
Wow! Debating semantics rather than reality
jgill June 07, 2020 at 23:05 #421433
Quoting Becky
Wow! Debating semantics rather than reality


The cat in the box is reality? :smirk:
Vladimir Krymchakov June 13, 2020 at 20:42 #423562
I left this forum forever.