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Why people enjoy music

hypericin May 23, 2020 at 13:11 9500 views 54 comments
There is a lot of mystification on this topic. I have a theory, which I think is more plausible than the other theories I have seen:

* People love predictability, music is predictable, which people enjoy
- Obviously not! To say music is "predictable" is not praise it, quite the opposite

* Music is an extrapolation of the musical sequences heard in everyday spoken language (i.e. "hel-loo-ooo!").
- I think this is closer. But these sequences are more convention than anything, they do not excite people to anything like the ecstasy music can induce.

My answer:

Look at the original music: singing. What was the original context of singing? Religious and community rituals.

[s]In a song[/s] In ordinary speech, the words are the nominal message, and sound is the medium of that message, the carrier of that signal. But in a song, that carrier was repurposed to transmit another signal, by varying the pitch and tempo of the spoken words.

Unlike the words, this signal is not informational, it is emotional. When a listener hears a song, he is receiving two simultaneous, distinct signals, symbolic and emotional. The purpose of the second, emotional signal, is to reinforce the message of the first, symbolic one. By manipulating pitch and tempo the singer is able to induce an ecstasy in the listener which he could not otherwise achieve with mere words. Music is an evolutionary assist in transmitting religious exaltation, which ultimately reinforces the control of the religious leader.

Every music lover will agree that their favorite music places them in a spiritual, exalted state. This concords with the function of music: to place the listener in a state of spiritual ecstasy, and impart the impression of meaning and significance which the words of the song would not otherwise possess.

The reason why one sequence of notes may excite this, and another may not, is both personally idiosyncratic and culturally bound.

Music has now outgrown its original function, so that an entire industry exists to stimulate the ecstasy, without the religious/spiritual content. Only the emotion remains, grasping at something which isn't there.

Comments (54)

wyn November 20, 2020 at 20:04 #473156
Hello, I think your theory is really interesting! I'm curious about what you have to say about instrumental music, specifically orchestral pieces. Though those songs often don't have lyrical content, they're able to convey messages. Or at the very least, it seems to me that people have derived more than just emotional meaning from songs like Holst's planets symphony, Vivaldi's four seasons, and even simpler pieces like Grieg's in the hall of the mountain king. These pieces seem to denote an actual story conveyed through instrumentation alone. Do you think composers can actually try to put meaningful messages in the score, this is just us projecting emotionally, or is this wrapped up in your idea of our tastes in music being "idiosyncratic and culturally bound"? Sorry for any misunderstanding I may have had reading!
Pfhorrest November 20, 2020 at 20:27 #473158
I agree that music has primarily emotional meaning, though I don’t know that that needs to be limited to religious contexts.

I see analogues of musical concepts in all manner of time-based phenomena, and I think the first hypothesis about predictability was on the right track. When things happen over and over again people can get bored and annoyed but also sometimes comforted. When patterns suddenly change that can be surprising in either an exciting or frightening way. When things happen in an entirely unstructured way that can be anxiety inducing but then if pattern emerge out of that structure there’s a pleasant feeling of discovery. If multiple patterns interact with each other in different ways that’s likewise a pleasant thing to realize, to feel like you’re noticing the connections between these things.

Sound is all about patterns of changes over time (pitch is just frequency), and all kinds of musical concepts are further refinements upon that (harmony is when multiple frequencies share certain relationships, rhythm and tempo are also all about frequency of notes). Musical ups and downs, breaks and shifts, all all about establishing and then changing patterns over time.

I think we’re wired to have emotional responses to patterns like that more generally, to get bored of repetition but also to fear unpredictable change, to get intrigued by noticing patterns and the relationships between patterns, etc, and music just directly pushes all those emotional buttons in the most straightforward way divorced from any broader real-world context.

Conversely, applying musical concepts to the real world can be a way to make life more pleasant. Comforting patterns but with interesting change-ups, allowing one movement to complete before beginning another, etc. (Likewise, applying musical concepts to other forms of art, like fiction writing, can make it more interesting and pleasant as well).
Metaphysician Undercover November 21, 2020 at 12:49 #473289
Quoting Pfhorrest
I see analogues of musical concepts in all manner of time-based phenomena, and I think the first hypothesis about predictability was on the right track.


I agree with this, rhythm is basically a repetition, and without rhythm there would not be music. The average piece of music takes a fundamental rhythm and experiments with variations. When you hear music played the variations create emotion and interest. But the artist must stay within a range of acceptability with the variations employed, or else the piece will be rejected by the potential audience as incoherent.

Quoting Pfhorrest
Sound is all about patterns of changes over time (pitch is just frequency), and all kinds of musical concepts are further refinements upon that (harmony is when multiple frequencies share certain relationships, rhythm and tempo are also all about frequency of notes). Musical ups and downs, breaks and shifts, all all about establishing and then changing patterns over time.


We could think of frequency as a very fast rhythm, perceptible only subconsciously, and apply the same principle stated above. The average piece of music takes a fundamental frequency (key) and experiments with variations, harmonies. The artist must stay within an accepted range of experimentation or else the audience will dismiss the piece as dissonance.

Quoting Pfhorrest
I think we’re wired to have emotional responses to patterns like that more generally, to get bored of repetition but also to fear unpredictable change, to get intrigued by noticing patterns and the relationships between patterns, etc, and music just directly pushes all those emotional buttons in the most straightforward way divorced from any broader real-world context.


Notice, that in my description above, the audience's response to frequency is fundamentally subconscious, while the response to rhythm is more conscious. The subconscious does not "understand" things in the way that the conscious mind does, so it does not enforce the same strict rules or principles of predictability which the conscious mind enforces. Consequently the artist is allowed a lot more freedom of experimentation within a piece, with frequencies than with rhythm.

I believe that emotion arises from the interaction between the subconscious and the conscious, and it often involves agreement and disagreement between the two with respect to what is acceptable in relation to predictability. It may be the case that the subconscious does not require predictability, being incapable of understanding it. But more likely, the subconscious really has extremely rigid rules of acceptability, as evidenced by songbirds singing almost the exact same thing. The subconscious would apprehend predictability only in precise repetition. So it's quite possible that the conscious mind must override the rigidity of the subconscious, allowing the subconscious wide open freedom, as a prerequisite for the enjoyment of music. This would make the emotions involved with listening to music somewhat trained, or controlled at a fundamental level because the conscious mind would then have influence over the development of the subconscious, in this artificial freedom.

.
Leghorn November 21, 2020 at 23:37 #473412
Thought this quote from Allan Bloom’s Closing of the American Mind (p 71) might be germane to the discussion:

“Plato’s teaching about music is, put simply, that rhythm and melody...are the barbarous expression of the soul...Music is the medium of the...soul in its most ecstatic condition of wonder and terror. Nietzsche, who in large measure agrees with Plato’s analysis, says In the Birth of Tragedy...that a mixture of cruelty and coarse sensuality characterized this state, which of course was religious, in the service of gods. Music is the soul’s primitive and primary speech, and it is...without articulate speech or reason. Even when articulate speech is added, it is utterly subordinate to and determined by the music and the passions it expresses.”
8livesleft November 22, 2020 at 01:56 #473445
I like the definition of music as emotional expression. The rhythm mimics and drives our heartbeat, the melody works around the rhythm telling a story.

Together, they capture our attention and can either match, enhance or change our mood. It can make us go from sitting quietly to dancing. Sometimes, the musicianship alone is enough to put us in a trance like state.

Music can convey so much emotional depth and nuance in just a few minutes that would require a writer to use many pages to capture if they only had words to work with.
180 Proof November 22, 2020 at 02:44 #473454
In utero polyrhythms of mother and foetus-baby's heartbeats (compounded further with twins, triplets, etc), I suspect, deeply 'wires' us (mammals) to synchronize with any repeating patterns - the more varied, the more novel, the more mimetically engaging. 'Musicophilia' (Sacks), in the broadest and most adaptive sense, seems a precognitive bias. Just a guess ...
Benkei November 22, 2020 at 15:10 #473600
Quoting hypericin
Look at the original music: singing. What was the original context of singing? Religious and community rituals.


How do you know this? Why not percussion first? Could we have sung before we gave meaning? If not, why not?
god must be atheist November 22, 2020 at 16:58 #473617
I believe that music appreciation (along with appreciation of all other art forms) is the result of a mutation. It proved to be supremely helpful in survival, for it aided social cohesion and the submitting of the individuals' selfish will for sacrifice for the common good. This includes of course primarily music's role in mysticism and in relgion. Also in war songs and war cries. "We are the champions" at hockey finals is a permutation of this effect.

The ability to like music was a lucky mutation. We still reap the benefit of it, even if not religious.
hypericin November 26, 2020 at 21:09 #474790
Reply to wyn

I've experienced this :I write black metal music, and my dad heard a song. He knows nothing about the genre, but he said it made him think of a burning red sky. That is exactly what I experienced when I wrote it,(I can only get lucky, I can't deliberately embed an image like this), hence the name, "Extinguish the Sun".
I thought that was great, but I don't think these images are truly "inside" the music. That seems as absurd as saying the concept (ice) is contained in the word "ice". But least within a culture, the emotional piano which music plays in us is similar. And the emotions we feel when contemplating the planets or an apocalyptic red sky are also similar. Therefore, it is possible, but not easy, to communicate images in music.
hypericin November 26, 2020 at 21:14 #474792
Reply to Pfhorrest

I really like this elaboration of the predictability theory.
Note that it is not exclusive with mine: they can both be true, and modulate each other.
I also don't think this theory can stand on its own. This way, music might be as much as a fascinating novelty, but no more. It cannot explain how the most dramatic and exalted emotional states we can experience can be evoked by music.
Jack Cummins November 26, 2020 at 21:14 #474794
Reply to hypericin
I am glad that someone on this site understands(and makes) black metal music. I enjoy this genre, including bands like Envy and Isis. Perhaps it is an underrated genre. I think that black metal enables us to touch the depths of beauty arising in the depths of chaos and darkness.
hypericin November 26, 2020 at 21:20 #474800
Reply to Benkei Quoting Benkei
How do you know this? Why not percussion first? Could we have g before we gave meaning? If not, why not?


Good point, I didn't think about percussion. Note that percussion also serves a spiritual function in primordial cultures. Also it is hard to imagine percussion without at least chanting.

It seems highly unlikely song as we know it came first. We would expect to observe this behavior in at least one nonlinguistic animal.
Pfhorrest November 26, 2020 at 22:14 #474836
Reply to hypericin I think my theory can and does explain how music can invoke such strong emotional states, since it's directly pushing emotional buttons normally triggered by pattern-recognition that evolved for more real-world purposes. It's like adding sweeteners to food, our brains just go "YES YES YES THIS IS THE MOST NUTRITIOUS THING EVER" because we're wired to gorge ourselves on calorie-rich foods whenever we can... even though sweet food isn't necessarily the most nutritious thing ever.

But I do definitely see the connection with religion as well, and I think religions have applied "musical" concepts (figuratively as well as literally musical ones) to other aspects of life exactly like I was discussing in my last paragraph. For example, ritual creates a sense of comfort, because it's a predictable pattern, so religious rituals make people feel comforted. (See also how people under severe emotional distress will tend to rock themselves, because the repetition there also creates a sense of comfort).

Quoting hypericin
It seems highly unlikely song as we know it came first. We would expect to observe this behavior in at least one nonlinguistic animal.


I'm not sure exactly how this connects, but apparently the human brain has a different function for singing than for speaking, because there are people with neurological disorders that leave them unable to speak, but they can still sing.
hypericin November 27, 2020 at 04:02 #474936
Quoting Pfhorrest
directly pushing emotional buttons


But then you are not explaining how music is able to "directly push emotional buttons". The last time you were saying that it is explained by our responses to recognizing patterns. This time, it seems like you are saying music somehow has direct access to emotions.
Pfhorrest November 27, 2020 at 06:41 #474956
Reply to hypericin I meant the pattern recognition thing this time too. By "directly" I mean that music is composed of patterns that are not the naturally-occurring patterns that our brains evolved to detect and react to, but rather hyper-refined patterns in an abstract medium that trigger those same mental responses with much more power and precision than the natural phenomena.

That's why I used the analogy with adding sweeteners to food. Adding a ton of sugar to something can make the experience of it much more enjoyable than any food that you could possibly find in nature. Likewise, producing a bunch of the right kinds of patterns in sounds can make an experience much more intense than the kinds we would often find in nature.
Present awareness January 20, 2021 at 05:47 #490799
Our first exposure to music, was hearing the rhythm of our mother’s heartbeat while in the womb. Rhythmic sounds are everywhere in nature and melodies may be found in bird songs.
The relationship between various pitches is also important. The major keys in music are usually associated as being upbeat whereas the minor keys have more of a sadness to them.
Lyrics added to music may paint a more vivid image in the listeners mind and may become much more powerful then just music alone.
Nagel March 02, 2021 at 18:19 #504814
I agree with your theory.

Nietzsche tackled this topic and wrote something similar. Here are some of my notes on Birth of Tragedy


Quoting myself on a previous discussion:

Quoting Nagel
Music is somehow mystical in the sense that it has a sort of universality relative to human emotions and passions. Sad music makes us sad regardless of our race and culture the same way that joyous music make us, welp, happy. This is especially the case for musical compositions without linguistic conflation which I would say is why they are most effective for enhancing scenes in films. Sometimes, lyrics ruin the song but if done right, it actually enhances our experience of it. By "done right", I'm not suggesting a universal structure of lyrical composition that makes all songs good. Lyrics step into culture, so it's a given that it loses its universality, but if songs with lyrics are directed to certain cultures and are consumed by these cultures, then to them it would have been "done right." This is why some westerners may not really appreciate, say, Vietnamese music or why there's even a divide between K-pop stans and the rest of the world.

This is also why I enjoy cute anime music and get shamed for it (?´?`)?*: ??

Tom Storm March 13, 2021 at 06:04 #509726
Quoting hypericin
Every music lover will agree that their favorite music places them in a spiritual, exalted state. This concords with the function of music: to place the listener in a state of spiritual ecstasy, and impart the impression of meaning and significance which the words of the song would not otherwise possess.


I doubt this is accurate. I think a lot of people listen to music so they don't have to think. They like the pop music of their time and while the sounds give them pleasure, they never feel a sense of the numinous or much more than a base level tingle.
Jack Cummins March 13, 2021 at 12:41 #509784
Reply to Tom Storm
I think that you are mistaken to see listening to music as simply a means of not having to think. Probably some people use it in this way. I listen to a lot of rock, and alternative music, even some pop and use it as a means of inspiration. I read a lot, but can't do that all day everyday. Just thinking all day everyday, can lead to creating mental knots, or in my case, the creation of endless impossible thread questions. I would say that music, can lead to a certain amount of balance, but also, a way of appreciating, involving the sensory level, hearing, but also invoking other aspects of sensory imagination.
ques March 13, 2021 at 14:25 #509794
Leghorn March 13, 2021 at 23:31 #509969
Adughep March 14, 2021 at 19:48 #510360
Quoting hypericin

I think we like or dislike music because we were made this way.
A high percentage of water in our body is high and when we are children even higher.
Water is known to propagate sounds and vibrations to great distances, because of this we "feel" sounds and vibrations.

Life was made millions years ago by explosions of stars, planets and collisions with meteorites, asteroids etc .... collisions produce sound waves and vibrations which where "felt and stored" into water .. so practically humans were made by sound waves and vibrations with water and a mix of chemical elements.

There was a documentary experiment where they put 2-3 years old children to listen to music.Because of high water percentage that is present in children, their sensitivity increase .
They started to move and to dance out of nowhere, without being told to do so.
For them the music vibrations is like someone is doing little electric shocks and they need to move :).




Tom Storm March 14, 2021 at 19:49 #510361
Quoting Jack Cummins
Probably some people use it in this way.


That's all I said and this corresponds to my experience of many others.
Olivier5 March 15, 2021 at 06:57 #510505
Quoting Nagel
Sad music makes us sad regardless of our race and culture the same way that joyous music make us, welp, happy.


I used to agree with this idea that the emotional charge of a given piece of music was "obvious" or "objective" for all to hear but it is not the case. There are tunes that one listener finds sad and another finds happy. It still surprises me when it happens. So counter-intuitive!

Another interesting experience is the sharp differences of musical taste that can exist between friends. You get to ask yourself: how could anyone in his right mind find this beautiful? Like Collingwood who found the Albert Memorial ugly and struggled to understand how one could find it beautiful.
TheMadFool March 15, 2021 at 07:59 #510519
Reply to hypericin How right you are! There definitely is a link between if not religion per se at the very least spirituality and music. Both subjects (spirituality and music) being vast and complex it becomes rather difficult to pinpoint with precision how and where their relationship begins, goes through ups and downs, and even ends. Your hypothesis, if one could see it as such, that it's got to do with spiritual ecstacy and how music can put us in the right frame of mind to experience it is quite plausible. After all, music is, as you say, all about emotion which maybe elicited from the listener either through a particular combination of notes or through words if vocals also figure in the equation and if there's a feeing that's worth it all it has to be ecstacy, spiritual ecstacy being just one example.

I suppose with the decline of religion and spiritualism and the rise of the materialstic spirit musicians have had to adapt and explore other avenues of clicking with their audience - politics, social issues, romance, philosophy, etc. all are now game so long as there's a willing audience ready to listen and, most importantly, ready to pay the price for the performance.

Quite possibly this is a sign that a sizeable number of people have come to some sort of realization that spiritualism isn't necessarily a divine affair i.e. god(s) maybe, in a sense, "photoshopped out of the picture" with no downsides to the overall aesthetics of the human story.
Tom Storm March 15, 2021 at 08:13 #510520
Quoting TheMadFool
I suppose with the decline of religion and spiritualism and the rise of the materialstic spirit musicians have had to adapt and explore other avenues of clicking with their audience - politics, social issues, romance, philosophy, etc. all are now game so long as there's a willing audience ready to listen and, most importantly, ready to pay the price for the performance.


Yes, and I also think that marketing - which has infested everything, including religion and spirituality - plays an instrumental (no pun intended) role.
TheMadFool March 15, 2021 at 09:06 #510527
Quoting Tom Storm
Yes, and I also think that marketing - which has infested everything, including religion and spirituality - plays an instrumental (no pun intended) role.


I don't see it that way. Marketing is the business analog of what we recognize as rhetoric in philosophy. I recall coming across an article or video, I forget, about how people aren't really listening to or paying attention to arguments when they decide to lend their ears to a cause/proposition. People, according to this source, are swayed more by the persuasive power of a speaker/writer than by how good/bad the arguments are if any have been offered in the first place. I don't have an issue with marketing tactics if that's what you're alluding to because one, a competent adversary is a good thing, keeps us on our toes ,and two, good arguments when well written/spoken are a treat to listen to or read through.
Jack Cummins March 15, 2021 at 09:10 #510528
Reply to TheMadFool
I think that there is definitely a spiritual and ecstatic side to music, including the shamanic one. This includes the whole of psychedelic and dance culture too. Okay, people may say that substances play a role, but not for everyone and the music is essential.

I even find a spiritual side to metal music, because it is about living with aspects of selves which are often repressed, and explore our own black holes, but not get stuck in them, hopefully. Prog music and psych-rock can also help us to voyage into inner space. Of course, it is quite possible to get into dangerous territories, as indeed has happened to some of the rock stars...

There are also some possibilities for meditation and music, especially the musician, Tim Wheater, who has developed and performed sound healing.
Tom Storm March 15, 2021 at 09:15 #510530
Reply to TheMadFool Marketing creates... markets. Often for things of dubious quality. Hence the money spent on it. I learned early on with children that if they see it on TV they want it. If they hear it on the radio, they want it. If it has a cool clip, they want it. If it is in a movie, they want it. Etc.
TheMadFool March 15, 2021 at 13:13 #510570
Quoting Tom Storm
Marketing creates... markets. Often for things of dubious quality. Hence the money spent on it. I learned early on with children that if they see it on TV they want it. If they hear it on the radio, they want it. If it has a cool clip, they want it. If it is in a movie, they want it. Etc.


That's the downside. See any benefits? Material that are a pleasure to view, read, listen to? Yes, in the wrong hands, "marketing" can be dangerous, lethal even but, in the right hands it's the proverbial cherry on top. I hope I got that right. Food for thought...why are educators so bent on making learning "fun" and why does "fun" in this case resemble marketing tactics?
god must be atheist March 15, 2021 at 14:39 #510587
Quoting hypericin
But then you are not explaining how music is able to "directly push emotional buttons". The last time you were saying that it is explained by our responses to recognizing patterns. This time, it seems like you are saying music somehow has direct access to emotions.


You said this in response to a (by me true) claim by PfHorrest, "Music pushes emotional buttons." (Not quoted verbatim.)

It is true. PfH only states a fact, without any actual explanation why it is so.

Many other respondents made observations how we hear our mothers' heartbeats, how we hear rhythmic noises or sounds in nature, how bird songs are attractive, etc. They fail to say why it is attractive, while in the description, in the stating of facts, they are unerring.

I have an explanation. This is what it is:

[b]A mutation occurred at one point which manifested in music appreciation. What we call music from then onward to the mutant and to his or her offspring was pleasurable, and to a lesser degree, also useful in evolutionary terms. It turns out that texts are easier to memorize when in verse, and in meter, than straight prose. And it's even easier to memorize if it's to music.

So in those tens of thousands of years when accumulated knowledge, that helped the survival of communities and individuals within, was passed by word-of-mouth (prior to any ability to mark text on permanent text-carrier), it was extremely important to have it memorized well; and verses put to music made this possible. So the gene that manifested in the enjoyment of music, also survived, because it was an evolutionary advantage.[/b]
3017amen March 15, 2021 at 15:42 #510602
Tom Storm March 15, 2021 at 18:47 #510645
Quoting TheMadFool
Food for thought...why are educators so bent on making learning "fun" and why does "fun" in this case resemble marketing tactics?


Hmmm.... I can't think of examples of educators making learning fun. I know they try sometimes. For me there's an issue with people only being aware of the things that are marketed at them and almost totally ignorant about anything else. So their choice, partly because of this, is almost always based on a tiny slither of potential experience that is mainstream and foisted on them.
Anand-Haqq March 16, 2021 at 13:45 #511004
Reply to hypericin

. Why wouldn't they enjoy ... ?
Nagel March 18, 2021 at 07:47 #511752
Quoting Olivier5
There are tunes that one listener finds sad and another finds happy. It still surprises me when it happens. So counter-intuitive!


The gods of music must be crazy

Quoting Olivier5
I used to agree with this idea that the emotional charge of a given piece of music was "obvious" or "objective" for all to hear but it is not the case.


What I said was a gross generalization, but I would say that it's actually dependent on the dominant cultures of a certain period. Take cinematic music for example, maybe from Marvel. Ecstatic fight scenes will usually have this certain flavor, tragic scenes its own,..etc. Having watched some Filipino, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese films, I can say that films with similar themes also have similar musical flavors. This may be a result of economic and business factors, even traditional and dogmatic, but I won't say that there's an objectivity to music.
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 07:55 #511755
Reply to Nagel One classic example of how music connects to emotions is the contrast between the minor and major chords: major chords ( ie C, E, G) are said to be upbeat and active while minor chords (ie C, E flat, G) are more melancholic. I have no idea why.
Nagel March 18, 2021 at 08:06 #511757
Reply to Olivier5 I agree. But depending on the composition of a piece, minors can be used for energetic moments. Take Bill Wurtz, for example, who is famous for his strange chords and unusual chord progression.
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 08:10 #511758
Reply to Olivier5 Convention, complicated by path-dependent exploration of the infinite possibilities. Creating the illusion of a natural connection. Yuk, I know. Something like that, though.
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 08:46 #511765
Quoting bongo fury
Creating the illusion of a natural connection.


Yeah but then, isn't illusion your default explanation for pretty much everything?
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 08:58 #511770
Reply to Olivier5 Haha, but is it disappointing that the connection isn't natural? I would be expecting to be accused of wishful thinking on this question. (Of denying the innate programming.)
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 11:06 #511794
Quoting bongo fury
Haha, but is it disappointing if the connection isn't natural?


Not really. It makes it more interesting.
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 11:29 #511798
For me too. And it was Goodman's actual point here:

Quoting bongo fury

The notion of the structure of a work [or any object] is as specious as the notion of the structure of the world. A work, like the world, has as many different structures as there are ways of organising it, of subsuming it under categorical schemata dependent upon some or other structural affinities with and differences from other works.
— Goodman, Problems and Projects


I might (later) edit in the continuation that explains how emotional analysis of music should lead to structural.
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 12:32 #511814
Reply to bongo fury

Just because things have more than one aspect or dimension or even structure, doesn't mean that talking of their structure(s) is always specious. Otherwise, by the same token, Goodman's owns ideas of the whole shebang are specious...

People keep tripping on the same contradiction all the time. Eager to burn the fields they have once toiled in vain, they proclaim that all talk of X (metaphysics, structure, lolipops, whatever) is rubbish, not noticing the reflexivity entailed by such sweeping statements.

The correct conclusion is usually that SOME talk about X may well be rubbish, but NOT ALL talk about X is necessarily rubbish.
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 13:10 #511829
Reply to Olivier5 That's the other thread, though.
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 13:26 #511837
Reply to bongo fury Yes, we've been there.

Interested in a non-illusionary theory of the correspondences between chords and emotions.

bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 13:37 #511843
Reply to Olivier5 Goodman explains "expression" as the metaphorical exemplification of properties. The chord expresses sadness in that it is a sample of metaphorically-sad things in general. Is metaphor illusionary?
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 13:43 #511847
Quoting bongo fury
Is metaphor illusionary?


Metaphors are us, the way I see it. I let you decide if we are illusions or not.

The chord expresses sadness in that it is a sample of metaphorically-sad things in general.


It still does not explain why minor chords tend to be heard as more subdued and less assertive than major chords.
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 13:52 #511854
Quoting Olivier5
It still does not explain why minor chords tend to be heard as more subdued and less assertive than major chords.


Sure it does, to the extent they do, which is grossly overstated.

It's because they have been used successfully to express sadness.

Path dependence.

Contingent on prior adoption of a classification into and of triads, as well.



... How have they been used successfully to express sadness? Good question, but a matter for analysis, which isn't at all obliged to implicate an innate correlation.
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 14:43 #511865
Quoting bongo fury
because they have been used successfully to express sadness.


As language therefore: the phonetics of words are in an arbitrary, culturally-constructed relationship with their meaning.

Yet music is often seen as jumping through linguistic barriers. As universal in this sense.
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 15:18 #511875
Ansiktsburk March 18, 2021 at 15:27 #511878
Donald Trump Covfefe
Carlos Ruiz Zafon Shadow of the Wind
William Blake Tyger Tyger
Dr. Dre feat. Snoop Doggy Dogg, 'Nuthin’ But a ‘G’ Thang'
Khachaturians Adagio of Spartacus
RHCP Otherside

Can they be put under the same umbrella? Where does music begin?
bongo fury March 18, 2021 at 15:34 #511880
Reply to Ansiktsburk With pattern-making?
Ansiktsburk March 18, 2021 at 15:35 #511883
Reply to bongo fury At Blake then, in my listing?
Olivier5 March 18, 2021 at 18:04 #511935
Reply to bongo fury When I was young, I travelled far. I listened to a lot of bizarre music, ragas with 13 beats per measure, love songs with much violins and tablas... I also got to share some Western music with people who had never heard anything like it before.

Once, on a high mountain, I met with a Gujur tribe. They are dark-skinned pastoralists situated at the lowest level in the tribal hierarchies of the Hindu Kuch, which means they live in the highest habitable region, in or above the pine forest. Over there, the poorer you are, the higher you live.

Their malek was most welcoming. We stayed in his camp for a couple of nights. At the time I was carrying around a Sony walkman as my escapist link to modernity. I would listen to it at night before sleep, specifically to Prince's Sign of the Times album. I had this cassette and Beggars' Banquet.

At some point the malek asked me if he could have the headphones. I handed them to him, a bit nervous due to his probably limited prior exposure to metrosexual electrofunk... He put the thing on his ears and I pressed Play. He listened to Prince for about twenty minutes, his dreamy eyes lost somewhere beyond the forest, shaking his heads once in a while.

At the end he took the headphones off and handing them to me he said: "It's interesting!"

I still wonder how he heard it.