Where do you think consciousness is held?
I've been struggling to grapple with the idea of sentience in a universe that is - for the most part- clumps of rock in a void of emptiness bouncing around and maybe exploding from time to time.
My body is an open system. The matter and energy I take in each day is stored, used and then thrown away after a time to be replaced with more. Yet somehow there is this architecture underlying this constant turnover which maintains my identity as me -my awareness, memories and personality. After 8 years or so from today not a single atom in my body will still be there. I will be materially new yet the exact same person. How is this?
Similarly... if I get it on with someone I can just make another conscious being out of my conscious being. Did their consciousness come from mine? Did I give them a little bit of awareness for them to grow? Like lighting a flame from my flame. Or is it somehow prepared and packaged in DNA for automatic assembly and just starts running once it's set up.
My body is an open system. The matter and energy I take in each day is stored, used and then thrown away after a time to be replaced with more. Yet somehow there is this architecture underlying this constant turnover which maintains my identity as me -my awareness, memories and personality. After 8 years or so from today not a single atom in my body will still be there. I will be materially new yet the exact same person. How is this?
Similarly... if I get it on with someone I can just make another conscious being out of my conscious being. Did their consciousness come from mine? Did I give them a little bit of awareness for them to grow? Like lighting a flame from my flame. Or is it somehow prepared and packaged in DNA for automatic assembly and just starts running once it's set up.
Comments (53)
Second of, the assumption that the rest of the universe lacks any form of sentience is just that an assumption (see any thread on panpsychism, perception or sentience).
Secondly I already highlighted my awareness of not being the same from day to day. Your reasoning that my memories and experiences are the only things that provide a sense of self is also just an assumption. That would mean someone with severe alzheimers or dementia doesnt have a sense of self or a conscious awareness because their memories or experiences are muddled up or disintegrating yet they still interpret the world around them. Perhaps awareness is more intrinsic then merely experience. Does a rock have a memory? Or experience? The poll is just for fun I cant provide an option for everyones view.
I feel like consciousness depends on a few things. I believe for consciousness to arrive in a being, there have to be many biological factors met to be able to function consciously. With saying this i also have come to think that there are multiple levels of consciousness depending on the mental capacity of the subjects biological body. A subject that channels consciousness, born from no perceivable consciousness, so where does the conscious come from? I believe that before the things that could channel consciousness, evolved Ex(single cell organisms and onward), the universe and everything that inhabits it was propelled by the energy flow of consciousness, leading to the inevitability of producing something to channel it through. When the big bang put our universe into motion, There was conflict. From this conflict arose more conflict, every instance of it not by chance, because there was no perceivable consciousness to intervene in physics becoming. This is a way for conscious to develop and build a mode of being for itself to take part in its creation to find itself.
Also, the Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell.
Consciousness seems to be immaterial? I have heard quantum phenomena described as immaterial.
“Where do you think consciousness is held” was the question? I had trouble knowing where to start. I think forms of mind (of which consciousness is one) are ubiquitous in nature but object to calling “rocks conscious”. Maybe you could say what you think consciousness is? And where it is found?
Human mind and Human consciousness are associated with human brains. Hive minds may be associated with colonies of bees and ants. Flowers may (to me) experience (in a non-conscious manner) sunlight.
"consciousness is fundamental to the universe" was one option- actually was not listed in that form and even then I could not have chosen it as reflective of my view.
Quoting Benj96I wonder about that. If a person no longer knows their name, remembers their family and friends, has forgotten their life experiences are they still “Uncle Joe”? I guess it depends on how you define “self” and “I”. I think mind comes in various degrees and various forms but the fundamental ontology is the question. If one is seriously demented one probably is aware in the “now” (like many creatures are) could be said to be “conscious” but I think a “sense of self” (open to definition) requires continuity of memory. I don’t mean to be argumentative. I could preface everything with IMHO. I am just providing thoughts.
I use the term “mind in nature” or “panexperientialism” (forms of panpsychism) and do not equate the terms awareness, experience, consciousness and memory (various forms of mentality, psyche).
1. Its coded into DNA and assembled/primed to run in utero – I think “mind” is more fundamental than DNA.
2. Its a quality of energy - the capacity to observe itself - I like the phrase that consciousness is the universe becoming aware of itself but it does not help regarded the metaphysics or ontology of mind itself.
3. It's a quality of matter - capacity to gather and store information- any structure contains information, I don’t think that alone helps us (but feel free to elaborate).
4. Its both a quality of energy and matter - fundamental to the universe. Like an ethereal soup- I think we pretty much can confirm the presence of energy, matter and mind, it is their relationship that is in question.
5. It is a byproduct of hierarchical organisation of systems. An emergent phenomenon - Consciousness I would say is an “emergent” (not in ontological sense) property of certain complex systems. Only in the same sense that different arrangements of matter give rise to different physical properties as well.
6. Consciousness doesnt actually exist it's an illusion- That would be “eliminative materialism” and seems to me to deny the very principle of the “inquiring mind”.
7. Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell.- Yes that is true but I fail to see the connection (you could elucidate for me).
Frankly, I am just confined to home for the pandemic and engaging to pass the time. It does inspire me to pursue lines of inquiry and use language to verbalize thoughts, I am not a true philosopher being mainly superficially familiar with only a few topics, have little ego invested, and I am relatively immune to negative responses. (I just stop engaging).
Except more neutrally put:
An embedded phenomenon which is a function of the evolution of complex natural systems
(Emergent) "property" and "phenomenon"... too suggestive of a substance/goo/woo.
(Emergent) "aspect"?
in the balls
Consciousness is empty. It is intentional: that is, it is the consciousness of something. If you look for its content you will only find the world. Rather, its way of acting in the world. The consciousness of the consciousness says nothing. It's an absurdity because it would take us to infinity: consciousness of consciousness of consciousness of consciousness and so on.
Consciousness has been compared to the stage of a theatre. If the actors don't come in there's nothing.
Since the world doesn't have a nervous system, bones and muscles, it seems impossible to me that the world has any kind of consciousness. As far as elephants are concerned, it's a controversial issue.
Synonyms: being aware of. Antonyms: mechanical behaviour, subconscious, reflex.
I agree with your first sentence.
But I don't understand the concept of actualization here. Neither does "metaphysical". In what sense is consciousness metaphysical? I see it as being closely linked to the physical conditions I have just specified: the nervous system, bones, muscles and action. (Bones and muscles are a way of simplifying the reference to the body).
An imitation? I'd say the mind is the body in action. Without my eyes, my fingers and my kidney, consciousness would be nothing and the mind would have nothing to do. Do you know what happens to the mind in a process of sensory deprivation? It goes crazy.
We use our most brilliant minds to create weapons of mass destruction and in doing so we respond to an instinctive demand to always be the strongest.
Consciousness tells us that humans are an extremely intelligent species but still are not aware that they are much more instinctive than intelligent. This is a recipe for an eventual catastrophe scenario. Humans now posess the power of a God to destroy all living things on this planet by using 50 nuclear bombs. Only 50 nuclear bombs are needed to destroy every bit of life on this planet. Radiation poisoning would kill you eventually. But who wants to be conscious of that?
Because it is locked onto the body and is deprived of sensation. If the body dies the mind can escape the prison and return to its original state of non corporeal awareness.
Suppose I ask you where my marriage resides? Is it in the certificate, or the ceremony, in me, in my wife, in both of us, is it emergent, is it imaginary?
Don't answer, don't vote. It's a wrong question. Your question is also a wrong question. It makes sense to ask where things are, or where they reside. My keys reside in my pocket, and I bring them out when I need to use them. Consciousness and marriage are not things.
What are they?
No, they are not what.
What are keys? Yes. Keys are shaped metal devices for opening locks.
Here's a simple example:
Duck, duck, duck.
Three ducks in a row. Now we have a row of ducks, but what is a row? You can see it plain as day, but when you point to it, you are pointing to the ducks. Where is the row? What is the row?
The row, in platonic terms, is the form instantiated by the particular relationship of, in this case, 3 ducks. And thence, by answering the innocuous seeming question, we have 2000 years of confusion.
Ducks are things; a row is not a thing. What is a row? No, a row is not a what. there are three things up there, and they are all ducks. The ducks are in a row. Stop.
Duck, duck
duck.
But I like to get my ducks in a row.
Sounds like consciousness comes from the I then
You know that's nonsense, don't you. Consciousness doesn't come from anywhere or go anywhere.
Deal with the row. I move the third duck from underneath to alongside and there is the row. It hasn't come from anything. I move it back to underneath, and there is no row; it hasn't gone anywhere. I could say that a row is an arrangement, or a relationship , but then you would start talking about arrangements and relationships as if they were things, and it would be the same confusion that Plato produced.
So consciousness is the relation of responsibility that the world has with itself. Happy now? But you will manage to make a confusion of it, by holding on to this definition as if it reifies consciousness.
Me, the world, and consciousness, or equivalently, me, my wife, and the marriage, or three ducks and a row - this is what you must not do.
That the Ducks are in a row is something you attribute to them.
Before there were people there were no rows, nor 1 2 3, nor Ducks!
Are these concepts not an expression of consciousness?
I agree with you. Consciousness is not a thing so much as a phenomena. A whole body , immaterial phenomena. However cellular microtubules sound promising as a possible location where the main action takes place – on an immaterial quantum level.
If the soul were something different from the body, it would have no problem depriving itself of the senses. It would be freer. But the soul's dependence on the senses is such that by depriving itself of them it ceases to function and decomposes. And I say soul because the theory of the body as a prison of the soul is typical of Christian Platonism via St. Augustine.
Of course you can give that theory a religious mythical content and resort to poetic images (the idea of prison is), but you cannot support it with any kind of evidence. All evidence points to the fact that the mind, if you take away everything that comes from the body (starting with sensations), is a total vacuum. Try describing the mind without the data from the senses and you will see what you have left. Nothing. Consciousness is always consciousness of some external thing.
I think we have a problem. This thread is confusing consciousness with mind. Put it simply, consciousness is the mental state of realizing or to be aware of the position of the 'I' among things. Mind is the faculty of thought.
Second, there are no immaterial quanta. Quantum mechanics is physics and deals especially with the behavior of elementary particles, which are matter, that is, mass and energy. If you want to say that the mind is an elementary particle you are going to have problems. I don't see an electron being aware of anything. But your main problem is that mind would not be immaterial.
Consciousness is generally seen as something that arises within our physical being. But what if we turn that on its head, and say that our physical being arises within consciousness?
Consciousness is always primal and central. It's the portal through which everything must pass. Our sensory perceptions, emotions, thoughts, and memories are only made real to us by our consciousness of them.
So you can take it further and say that consciousness is all there is. I'm conscious of being a body/mind entity, but I have no absolute proof that my body or anything else exists as a physical reality.
I operate according to the default assumption - the things I perceive do actually exist, physically and independently of my consciousness of them. But I can't know that absolutely. All I can know is my consciousness of those things.
Thus I would argue that this mystery called "I" arises within consciousness, and not vice-versa. All I can say about myself with absolute certainty is that I am consciousness, and that all appearances of a physical universe arise within this consciousness.
Is it not the same for you? :)
Interesting notion. If it was a zen koan, I don't think that was an adequate response. Note the connection between the response and the responsibility. You needed to show your zen, and you didn't, because you didn't take responsibility for your response but tried to put it on me. A failure to be fully conscious.
But I am not a zen master, so I count your non-response more as a success that you are reduced to reifying a form of words rather than a single word is progress.
Is that a zen koan?
Consciousness is an evolving concept. I may get a little ahead of myself but I find your views a little dated. I tend to agree with IIT theory and GW theoty. I particularly like Roger Penrose’s cellular microtubule proposition.. I personally believe qualia informs consciousness, rather then the traditional view. I believe the world is coming to the view that mind is a state of consciousness. Where, put very simply, consciousness is a state of unified and integrated information and mind is a prolonged state of this.
What is your understanding of how mind manifests itself?
Quoting David Mo
Superposition cannot be described as material.
Quantum fields cannot be described as material.
If this is so, then they are immaterial.
Why not?
What means "matter" for you?
Quoting Pop
I think it's good that the meanings of a word evolve, as long as it's not in a confusing way.
If we equate "consciousness" with "mind", I do not see how we can distinguish the whole of thought activities with the subset of self-awareness thoughts.
One can lose consciousness with injury or drugs.
One can be rendered unconscious with anesthesia.
Injury to certain anatomic regions of the brain can cause permanent and irreversible loss of consciousness.
So where does consciousness reside?
What is the link between the human brain and human consciousness?
Start removing or damaging parts and see when consciousness disappears or alters?
(See traumatic brain injury reports)
Do you distinguish between awareness and content?
When superposition is collapsed it becomes matter.
Quoting David Mo
You seem not to understand very much, yet you make bold statements.
This is an expression of your consciousness.
Do not feel too bad , we are all in this boat to some extent.
According to American philosopher John Searle: '' By "consciousness" I mean those states of sentience or awareness that typically begin when we wake up in the morning from a dreamless sleep and continue throughout the day until we fall asleep again. ''
Perhaps take up your inquiry there, I am otherwise busy.
The researchers headed by Prof. Dr. Antoine Adamantidis discovered that a small population of these thalamic neurons have a dual control over sleep and wakefulness, by generating sleep slow waves but also waking up from sleep, depending on their electrical activity. The research group used a technique called optogenetics, with which they used light pulses to precisely control the activity of thalamic neurons of mice. When they activated thalamic neurons with regular long-lasting stimuli the animals woke up, but if they activated them in a slow rhythmical manner, the mice had a deeper, more restful sleep.
This is the first time that an area of the brain has been found to have both sleep and wake promoting functions. "Interestingly, we were also able to show that suppression of thalamic neuronal activity impaired the recovery from sleep loss, suggesting that these neurons are essential for a restful sleep after extended period of being awake," says Dr. Thomas Gent, lead author of the study. This shows that the thalamus is a key player in both sleep and wake. The study has now been published in the journal Nature Neuroscience.
I feel the brain is important, perhaps central. But there is enormous cellular complexity that has to be accounted for. What controls epigenetics? We can remove an organ and it continues to function, independant of brain input. It seems to have a type of consciousness related to its function.
Ie: Covid has been defeated millions of times by the body's immune system, yet humanity is still trying.
Which is the more conscious in relation to this narrow task?
I am a panpsychist but I have trouble with using "consciousness" that way, as the term usually means self aware self reflective in a way that liver cells probably are not. If you want to claim other cells have experience or temporal or spatial relations we might find common ground. Consciousness as the term is typically used requires a brain and is inseparable from it although I don't think neuroanatomy or neurochemistry alone can explain "experience" or conscious content.
Have you considered creatures that do not have brains?
I was afraid of that. You don't know how to answer my questions and that makes you very "busy".
I can respect that you do, and that is the general understanding. But generally we do not understand consciousness, so I question the understanding.
Good luck with it, and thanks for your input.
I picked the prevailing thought process there (45%). Consciousness can be thought of as "held" in both places; in the mind itself as a receiver as well as a transmitter to the universe, like the law of attraction( QM).
I don't. There are all sorts of things, including objects, that exist in specific locations. This is why I talk about things and not objects.
Quoting Benj96
Yes, and it's rather unkind of them, because it leads to difficulties and confusion. Will you accept that there are nouns (X) of which one cannot sensibly ask "Where is X?" Where is time? Where is confidence? Where is abstraction? Now if I am right, then 'where is consciousness?' is similarly a wrong question. I don't pretend I can prove it, but I commend it to your serious consideration. What would it mean to you to have an answer to your question? What do you have to give up in order to say that there is no answer?