I'm afraid of losing life
I'm not a genius writer, so if you see anything you don't like, just be forgiving, and don't try to kill me in the comments.
How?
How can I feel tranquil about losing all value in existing, in losing consciousness itself and forever?
I know, I know Epicurian philosophy is the fix, no, I read Epicurus, and I disagree, my concern with death isn't death itself, but it's about life.
I cannot feel good about losing the opportunity to feel, to experience love, food, peace of mind, happiness, and even sadness, anger, and fear because those help me in my development as a human being.
I know that some or even most fellow agnostic/atheists disagree with me saying things along the line :
Maybe it's because I used to take the afterlife for granted, I should say that I was a religious 16 years old kid, very religious, diving deep into the religion was enough to realize the contradictions in Islam and the horrible things were said even if it has some good things.
Right after that a hellish 2 years of reading and searching and having the worst existential angst, I became what I am today, a lot stronger, a lot humble and embracing uncertainty and scepticism, I don't want to believe something too much and repeat it all over again, plus it's only rational to be uncertain.
But still, the hardest thing that I'm still having trouble with is losing a life.
Whatever I can think of to ease it: We don't know what happens after death, There is an infinite amount of universes so there are copies of me( ironically, I don't anything in common with them ), The universe repeats itself ( just a theory, with weak evidence ), Epicurian philosophy, and the pantheistic view...
All of them gave something, especially the Spinoza view, but none of them is enough to accept losing a life.
I might be too picky, I might be asking too much from you, but I'm just a human being.
Thanks for writing your response.
How?
How can I feel tranquil about losing all value in existing, in losing consciousness itself and forever?
I know, I know Epicurian philosophy is the fix, no, I read Epicurus, and I disagree, my concern with death isn't death itself, but it's about life.
I cannot feel good about losing the opportunity to feel, to experience love, food, peace of mind, happiness, and even sadness, anger, and fear because those help me in my development as a human being.
I know that some or even most fellow agnostic/atheists disagree with me saying things along the line :
- You are fearing something that if you are, it isn't and if it is you aren't.
- You won't feel anything ( oh wow! ) so you won't feel this fear, and you won't be upset.
- You are the reason religion still exists
Maybe it's because I used to take the afterlife for granted, I should say that I was a religious 16 years old kid, very religious, diving deep into the religion was enough to realize the contradictions in Islam and the horrible things were said even if it has some good things.
Right after that a hellish 2 years of reading and searching and having the worst existential angst, I became what I am today, a lot stronger, a lot humble and embracing uncertainty and scepticism, I don't want to believe something too much and repeat it all over again, plus it's only rational to be uncertain.
But still, the hardest thing that I'm still having trouble with is losing a life.
Whatever I can think of to ease it: We don't know what happens after death, There is an infinite amount of universes so there are copies of me( ironically, I don't anything in common with them ), The universe repeats itself ( just a theory, with weak evidence ), Epicurian philosophy, and the pantheistic view...
All of them gave something, especially the Spinoza view, but none of them is enough to accept losing a life.
I might be too picky, I might be asking too much from you, but I'm just a human being.
Thanks for writing your response.
Comments (108)
Nor should you. But fear is too small an emotion for the case.
If it helps, the sum of information comprising a life will outlast the duration of that life. Potentially forever.
I disagree, I don't have a problem with deep sleep, anaesthesia and the like because of, I have them so I can live, whether it is surgery to make my life better, or just sleeping after a long day at university, with the will to wake up tomorrow to go and do things you want/should do,
So What should I do?
Anything I can think of as meaningful is within my consciousness, which is lost when we die.
I mean even without the fear, it's clear it's a big loss.
Thank you for your kind words.
I hate to say it after all that you said.
"But" those who died before me, lost exactly what I don't want to lose.
Sorry for being selfish.
An individual life is what is experienced between birth and death. One cannot lose a life, one can only shorten it.
That is a slightly different question. Do you find yourself meaningless because you are not infinitely big?
The daffodils have finished, and the tulips are getting raggedy, so they are going into the back garden to finish and die down, and I'm bringing out the geraniums and begonias. Flowers are not meaningless because they are short-lived any more than they are meaningless because they are short stemmed. And nor are you and I.
But don't worry about meaning only being in your consciousness - I mean really - the world is more extensive and more meaningful and more beautiful and terrible and just way more in every dimension, than your consciousness. I you limit yourself to that, then you are bound to have problems.
Maybe this is the issue. A dash of coherentism, a drop of foundationalism, and some pragmatism, too.
Add some [s]nihilistic egoism[/s] Tao-style utilitarianism, and voila, you've made a something. Delicious!
If the answer is yes, youâre unique.
If the answer is no, apply that to living your life.
OR go with Socrates and view death as an unopened gift.
Around me are religious people, that don't see their mortality, and believe in the absurd, even my family, unfortunately.
About psych problems, I think I have but, they aren't the source of fearing losing life, they only make life more complicated.
Cats are fearless? I don't think so, I never saw a brave cat.
As for the ice cream, I'll eat a bit, but pause think about it, then repeat, probably.
Yea, but I don't think I'm unique many people stop to think about it, especially in deep movies like Inception and the like
Quoting I like sushi
Yeah, I think he is right, but the more we know about the universe the more it is improbable that there is something after body death, so I don't want to hope on something so improbable
Beautifully put, I have no idea what it means though.
In her sleep she began running, and I laughed again. Silly cat. In the morning she was lifeless, still in the pose as if she was running.
Father! I am an atheist who thinks you are believing in BS, and because I don't believe in that comforting BS, I want to go to a therapist, who is Muslim to tell him/her what I feel and find a solution.
I can't as you can imagine
Um, that's exactly my problem, and my question is how can I face the loss of this amazing gift called life.
That's amazing and really sad.
I'm sorry for your loss
don't you miss your cat? don't you find sadness that she doesn't exist or feel anything at all? and how does that affect your view on death?
BTW, what will therapy do for me?
Tell me to just live.
Unfortunately for us we do know what happens after death and we have the cadaver farms to prove it. But because life is brief makes it all the more priceless. Without death life would be worthless.
I apologize if my responses look close-minded, I'm just not convinced.
Make sense?
Yeah, I understand your point, isn't that just living until you die?
Don't get me wrong it's a good way to see things
If life was eternal, and the world was eternal, I don't see it as without value, do you?
And yes, I meant the possibility of a soul, which close to zero, but it's still there
No, I don't miss her. She was/is a reality. A fact. So are you. So am I. Facts are beyond time.
But you don't exist anymore as a CONSCIOUS being.
I understand, but accepting the death of someone can be easier than you death.
I am also afraid.
I have lost a number of dear friends in the last few years and it is weird how they still live inside me.
Years ago, one of those friends said to me something like this:
"Once you pass the boundary, you won't be able to regret it happening because, uh, you are dead. So don't compare it to all those times when you experience regret. A bad decision at work. A sinful indulgence. A petty demand for a stupid thing. When you get rid of all the false comparisons, then you can slow down and stop rushing toward the the end you despise."
I'm sorry for your losses.
Quoting Valentinus
I'm afraid that I lose what I have now, not when I'm dead.
the fear comes from the fact, that I won't ever experience anything after I die, because experiencing things is the only source of value in existence.
what made you terrified of death?
if something is unclear, I apologize sometimes I don't express things right.
:lol:
Excellent.
But better,
By living it to the fullest extent of your ability.
I think you are all right.
I'll try, I hope I'll accept it finally, maybe with more of Spinoza and Epicurus.
BTW, what do you think about Spinoza views on god as nature?
My friend was saying that the: "fear comes from the fact, that I won't ever experience anything after I die" is an anticipation of the future. We anticipate all sorts of things in the course of our lives. He wasn't trying to say the fear is misplaced or stupid. But we do make it like other things when it is not. How we deal with the anticipation changes outcomes. It is not an answer but a set of helpful complications.
I encourage you to read Unomuno's The Tragic Sense of Life in Men and Nations. He gives full expression to what you are talking about. I have a different view but it doesn't come from overcoming his arguments.
You don't know what happens when you die.
If you say 'X will happen when I die' you can be sure you're talking out your ass.
X is unknown.
You've constructed a negative emotional response to an unknown. I wonder why you did that.
Quoting Valentinus
Can I ask something?
Do you think the anticipation is bad? I mean it is one of the most powerful things humans have.
it's like saying don't talk about tomorrow and try to make sense of what could happen because it's unknown.
We know that our consciousness&existence is within our bodies.
So when our bodies end, we end.
I don't think the anticipation is bad.
But, as you say, it is wrapped up in how we understand ourselves as humans.
For myself, the matter of what is practiced and preserved is not directly proportional to what I am able to state is the case or not.
Your results may vary.
But folk die quietly. They take themselves off to the hospice so as not to be a nuisance, and drift off overnight. They keep the rage inside, for the sake of the family...
Life is the tension between looking on the bright side and going gently into that good night.
...without death.
It's not your man's fault if people don't take his advice. Quite often when people are afraid of death, they are even more afraid of life.
Quoting I-wonder
If you want to have a god, then nature is good.
But then learn about nature.
One of the things I find happiness in is learning about the universe.
True; but there would be no life.
No!
Some recognised that life will continue after they are gone, and those left behind will have to deal with it.
Who? People who die quietly? People who keep the rage inside? People who are afraid of death?
Do be careful that the they in my quotation is the same as the they in yours if you are going to use one to deny the other.
This is an argument. And it's fine. It's an argument.
But no one knows what happens when we die.
sure, except those who died.
The dead are prohibited from posting on this forum.
A funeral, sometimes. A cremation, perhaps. In any case, you will no longer post here.
So yes, we do know what happens after you die.
No.
Quoting unenlightened
Quoting Banno
I am clearly and explicitly talking about "people who are afraid of death"
I don't think you are, but about people who "die quietly".
Quibbling.
You know some of the things that happen when other people die. Granted. That was never in question and I can only assume you know that was never in question.
You don't know what your death will be like.
I disagree with this. In a way, sure, the only experience you have necessarily requires consciousness, but is your experience the only one that is meaningful? Isnât it meaningful that the people you love and care about are happy, or having fun, or some other pleasurable experience? Donât you find certain concepts to be meaningful? Equality? Autonomy? Love? Didnât these concepts exist prior to your consciousness? If so, then canât it be expected that they will continue to exist after you die? If you have children, then you could be happy about the things youâre able to pass on to them even after youâre dead. Maybe try viewing your consciousness as a sort of medium through which you get to experience meaningful concepts, emotions, etc.
Sounds like she had a seizure and you're a sociopath.
I don't think it's common to be tranquil about it, especially if you're given to pondering, which you appear to be.
Maybe it's just the downside to being a pondering person. There's a positive side to it as well, right?
Well, I haven't done it yet. So that's not all that surprising. I don't know what my lunch will be like, either.
I didn't deny others experience, but what others will experience won't be what I experience.
If you think I'm being selfish, you have to understand that I help people, and want happiness for others, but when I die that will be without value for me because I won't be there.
I guess being more ready to it is the positive side to it. I feel like I'm accepting it slowly.
Then somehow things get repeated, I'm in a battle with myself.
But the discussion here helped tremendously to see my problem through others' lenses.
She was old, and you're a goddamned fool.
Right, but donât you find that thought comforting? That others will still experience joy? To me all experience is meaningful, regardless of whoâs doing the experiencing.
Me too. It is totally fascinating. Which is why I keep doing it.
Death is a lot like lunch - if you've never had a lunch.
I found being a part of the universe comforting.
I also find the idea if people&life forms experiencing all kind of incredible things before, during and after I die.
But none of those is enough to accept oblivion.
I have to accept the no returning.
I'm still 18, I have time, hopefully.
The most fascinating thing about studying the universe is that it is nature studying itself.
We're part of nature.
And that's mind-blowing.
I used to have a hat like that...
Well, here's a misfire; you were talking about my man:
Quoting unenlightened
And my "No!" was directed at the supposition that he was afraid of death, and hence went quietly.
You don't need to wait until you die for things to suck. It sounds like you're young enough to have in store the death of some close relatives and friends, some job losses, and some heart breaks, You'll have a flat tire in the rain, you'll drop your phone in a puddle, and you'll fall a really big test. You'll fight hard and lose. You'll lose your faith. You'll sit and wait for something and it won't happen.
And there will be the opposite. You'll hold someone's hand and they'll squeeze it harder, you'll look into your child's perfect eyes, you'll cross the finish line first, you'll see the sunrise, and you'll feel like you're at home.
And, yes, you'll surely die even if you don't do anything else I've predicted.
I can only tell you that every moment matters. Life isn't a meandering meaningless journey culminating in death, but an infinite series of final destinations, each impregnated with divine infinite meaning for you to decipher. Don't waste this sacred moment with fret, but if you must, take comfort in the fact that fretting is what must now be called for.
But as to how you stay young as you get old, I quote the Nobel laureate, another Dylan:
You told me your cat stared off oddly and then its legs began running in place. You laughed, and it died at your feet.
My stroke/sociopath theory is a good one. Could be wrong, but it's a solid working theory, notwithstanding the fact that you cat may have been old or that I might be a goddamned fool. Those diagnoses are not mutually exclusive. We might all be right here.
I experience "problems" over and over, thinking it's resolved, and then it's back.
There's a view that instead if trying to hammer these issues flat, allow them to be part of who you are, which is challenging if it's fear or anger, but allowing it can provide the space to see symbols in it or a drama playing out, maybe even an ancient Greek drama or an episode of the Andy Griffith show.
This
Is
the greatest
Saying
Ever
It's okay to not be an asshole. Try it sometime.
Thank you for your encouragement, I think I'm starting to see life as a great mysterious adventure, whose last destiny is known.
I don't know Frank, maybe if I do that, problems will be solved.
Do which?
Fair.
Quoting frank
Accepting fear of death will mean to move on in life, and to not think about it.
Quoting Zophie
:up:
Quoting A Seagull
:up:
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
:clap:
Quoting I-wonder
There's no guarantee you'll live to the end of this sentence. Each moment, every "now", goes - "no returning" - gone.
Closer to you, as Sufis say, than your jugular is death.
Your pulse is the countdown clock (c2 billion heartbeats).
And Nietzsche reminds us that to live fully, dangerously, joyously, is to die countless deaths while still alive.
Carpe jugulum!
No doubt much of your "fear of death" (mostly) comes from you not having lived much yet. Death is easy, kid; it's the living that's hard (Keef).
Quoting I-wonder
:death: :flower:
Nice.
Speaking of cool hats, this is my family photo from last Thanksgiving. I'm the one on the right:
Ah, sorry. A colloquialism, Irish I think. "Your man" = 'the aforementioned person' or thereabouts. He who advocated rage; a Welshman, but honorary Irish by drinking achievement.
Note: the religion of a good professional wonât bias them for or against you. It might even take time to find one who is compatible. Itâs an option.
If there is some philosophical idea you want to focus on specifically great. Iâm not sure what it is exactly. Nietzsche and Camus are two people you might want to look at, but if you see no meaning or point to life then Iâm not sure how you can rationally explain your presence here? Either youâre seeking guidance or rebelling (maybe both?).
Iâve never been âreligious,â so to speak, but I do understand what it is like to have a dramatic shift in perspective and to have existential questions looming over you. If itâs mostly about the existential problem and youâre only 18 ... youâre just going to have figure it out in your own sweet time and hedge your bets until youâve experienced more of the world and yourself - no guarantees!
If itâs a more visceral and personal issue surrounding your upbringing, shifts in belief and general psychological well-being, then speaking to a psychologist might something you find useful (you never know). Primarily being honest with yourself should probably be a thing to focus on as all humans are incredibly good at lying to themselves about what is the real underlying problem - I wouldnât go to hard in that direction though if youâre feeling particularly emotional.
If you donât see the point in targets, aims or goals, maybe it should be your aim, target or goal to search for a point - Iâve found enough of them myself, but telling you what they doesnât explicate the value.
Just like teaching someone how to add, subtract, divide and multiply tells them next to nothing about what mathematics is, so telling you what is important to me wonât do anything much for your without the lived experience.
Explore. Itâs your human default setting. Donât inhibit it and donât let your fear - inner or outer - dictate every single choice you make (note: fear is necessary to stave off insanity - too much or too little are just as bad).
Thatâs the best I have right now.
GL
Sleep is valuable and is an indicator of our wellbeing. We have problems, we lose sleep. Right?
Death maybe regarded as permanent sleep compared to normal sleep which can be regarded as temporary sleep.
So, worrying about death is permanent sleep depriving you of temporary sleep. :chin:
Or perhaps you are just too old?