Bite of the Apple.
Why don't the liberal left boycott goods manufactured by despotic regimes ? I've never once seen the left initiate such a boycott...apart from South Africa during apartheid . Why is China acceptable but the old South Africa not ?
Comments (72)
Maybe you're just looking for an excuse to carry on buying Chinese goods? Do you agree that it would be ethically better to buy a phone made in S Korea (Samsung) than China (Huawei) ?
I agree to it, these are bad contracts.
So does Israel. So does the US.
The US broadcasts a lot and associates, we mean good by our contracts and can rule out debt by some higher ground than what's on paper. Are china the enemy of the united states because of the South China Sea and more? This is how much we know about them. Because of such disinformation I will rule out all Chinese debt. Aren't a lot of so called enemy nations pursuing some religious cause against America? A lot of enemy nation citizens have shown their hate publically for America. There are a lot of hate groups. This has cause a massive social problem, thus no more debt.
Much of Taiwan's manufacturing is in China.
The list of American companies with manufacturing in China is frighteningly long. This is just a partial list:
http://www.jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm
OH just fuck off with the bullshit already. I mean good with my sarcasm too. It's simple; The S.African government had an overt, declared racist policy. It wasn't an aberration, it was the way politics was conducted from top to bottom. Such a situation does not apply to China, and that's why people of the left like me, who participated in the boycott of S. Africa, would not participate in a boycott of China. I do. however, participate in a boycott of Israel though as it happens, because they also have an overt declared racist policy. China is just another venal dictatorship, not much different from America or Europe or Russia.
Most people in the world given the choice of living in the States or China would pick the States for obvious reasons...to deny this would be silly.
According to your religion mate, but not mine. You asked a question, and as it happens I am qualified to answer. You don't like my answer, but the world isn't always what we like. What you expose is that you are of the liberal right, and wanting us lefties to do your dirty work for you while you continue to benefit from massive trade with China. Ain't gonna happen.
Such deals are more attacking deals.
If you were really to change my mind you would have to show more heart to the west.
Hypocrisy.
It is kind of difficult to be racist when your whole country consists of one race. But then the final outcome of unfettered racism is that there only be one race in your country.
My politics are right-wing insofar as I believe in Individual rights and responsibilities over group rights. I also believe in decent minimum standards with regard to pay and conditions for workers.Those things I just stated are better represented in the US and Israel rather than China, that is obvious to 99% of people.
I want to end trade with China, or have conditional trade...but for some strange reason leftist liberal types want to carry on buying their iphones...they don't care about the oppression of the Chinese people , strange.
Yeah. I am a leftist, and I just gave you my reason. So don't blame me because you greedy Yanks are addicted to American crap made for you by China. It's not like the US is dominated by the left.
My deepest sympathy.
Have you heard of Guantanamo?
Google gave me this list when I asked, but I haven't checked them all and of course there may be more...
When I want to talk about China, I'll let you know by saying "China". I'm fairly conventional about things like that. Let me show you.
China is not a place I would like to live. I don't like a good deal of the government policies, and the corruption and authoritarianism of the society as exemplified by treatment of gays, Muslims Tibetans and other minorities is horrible. They are also not too hot on justice, reneging on the agreements about Hong Kong, and mistreating dissidents and protestors there and on the mainland. Having said that, it is hard to see how a more liberal approach could have brought the country from its state of total collapse and occupation by the Japanese, from a famine ridden medieval peasant condition in the space of just about 2 generations to the status of modern industrial superpower.
Not sure what this incoherent mess is supposed to mean, but if you are saying that we should default on our debts...stiffing the chines...you are a nuts as Mitch McConnell telling the blue states to declare bankruptcy.
I imagine the vast majority of people have more immediate worries, but that most would do what they could if they were shown how to.
Why don’t the non-liberal right boycott? Does political leaning really matter? If you think so how and why, and evidence do you have to back up your position?
China's a state capitalist country. You can tell because they have workers who are payed to do jobs. One reason why we keep importing from there is that there is a major incentive in production to produce as much as cheaply as possible. UK companies who use human rights violating companies across the world get to feel like the blood isn't on their hands because it is shed elsewhere.
It is also true that it is difficult for some in the UK to afford new clothes, electronics and so on. People live paycheck to paycheck for their entire lives, so it makes sense for them to minimise their costs and buy cheaply, supporting practices of production that violate human rights.
So, a political discourse, media and politics that tries to hold the awful collusion between these parties accountable would be much better, and make it more likely to lead to the amelioration of UK companies supporting human rights violations abroad to maximise their profits, wouldn't you agree?
Surely this is better than throwing "China, CCP, communism" at an imagined enemy of "left liberals", presumably living a similar life to you in the UK, and accusing them of hypocrisy, when it should be directed at the UK government's hypocritical collusion with known human rights violators while claiming to be champions of worker's rights.
Ah dude, will you extend you naive faith in justice to another jurisdiction, or is only American justice unfailing in its righteousness?
Quoting tim wood
Did I? I think the post in question was this:
But perhaps you have something else in mind?
Alas, I fear you must not like America to defend it so strongly; for my part I am always most critical of my closest friends. I expect less of strangers.
My first defence that you put words into my mouth was fairly successful though. That was more an attack than a defence, just a rather gentle one. But have you seen the horrible things I say about my own country?
:lol:
My point was that China is one of the least diverse countries in the world, and in which citizens have fewer freedoms and CHOICE, like women getting to decide if and when they want to have a child or not, yet the left gives the country a pass over more diverse countries and more CHOICE.
This is just more examples of how politics warps your brain and skews your perspective of the world. Politics is no different than religion.
It's just outright two-faced bs from the virtue signalling "establishment" types. The fact that the liberal left gives China a free pass totally discredits them.
What you say about poorer people in the West being dependent on cheap Chinese goods is true to a degree , but better quality goods that cost more but last longer are just as valid for the poor...plus it has the benefit of being better for the planet.
But all this disregards that Apple make extremely expensive items that most people don't actually need ( eg ,buy a Samsung phone instead) ...the liberal left chooses to buy them whilst pretending to care about the poor and the planet. This thread is about that two-facedness .
The left also mistake big business for being right wing when it is clear that huge businesses are supportive of the liberal, globalist left. There is a clear tie up between liberal leftist politics and organisations like Facebook.
Have you thrown everything with ‘made in China’ out? Chances are you probably can’t tell where the materials come from for the products you own.
Basically I don’t understand your rant. You’re upset with everyone who is middle-class and liberal because, y’know, they’re all alike ... surely you see how that kind of view doesn’t help anyone really.
What would "not pretending to care" look like? I can think of a few scenarios for it:
(1) Yeah I don't actually care about workers in China, we need them to be a hair's breadth from slave labour for various reasons.
That's not pretending to care by simply not caring. That's clearly not acceptable, right?
(2) I care about worker's rights in China, but I have little to no influence over working conditions in China. I'll try to buy things that are ethically sourced, and that eventually will help workers in China.
That seems well intentioned but ultimately more of a salve to someone's sense of propriety than anything effective for workers in China; if you buy from a "more ethical" company, you're usually still giving money in support to human rights violators, companies are legally mandated to favour the bottom line over human rights; so long as the human rights violations are legal somewhere, your race to the bottom will end up there.
(3) I care about worker's rights in China, but I believe that my individual consumer choices don't matter much for their livelihood.
Seems defensible to me. How can I be expected to change the world when it's not a political option for me, but it is a political option for a government? I have no place in the closed rooms where decisions are made; and those decisions force me, and you, to live in hypocrisy every day. Maybe you buy from Asda but don't buy their clothes, grats, they're still going to use those profits to support importing from China.
(4) I care about worker's rights in China, my consumer choices matter, but I can't afford to buy more ethically sourced goods.
Say you're over 25 and living in London, working a full time job for minimum wage. You make £18137.60 per year, working 52 times 40 hour weeks in a year. After tax and personal allowance, that would be £17010.08. If you use median yearly rent for London, you end up at about £5000 yearly income after tax and rent. I'm sure you know how much skimping you have to do on that, that $5000 has to cover every expense besides rent. For a year. In the most expensive area in Britain, in one of the most expensive areas in the world.
If you worked it out per month, that gives you £344 for the month using the same median rent (before tax). You do not have enough to cover surprise expenses. You have to make choices between normal social opportunities like going out with your friends or going to the gym. The situation only gets more bleak if they have dependents.
And someone in this position, you'd call them a hypocrite if they cared about human rights violations in China and made well meaning Tweets about it while being just as powerless as you. You reserve the right to say "I'm so virtuous I'll call out all the people who care despite living in the same inescapable hypocrisy as me", as if it makes you better, as if you're doing anything but shitting downwind and pretending it doesn't smell.
It's not even your poop man! It's Chinese manufacturing's and international state-corporate collusion's poop!
It almost seems as though the liberal left has sold out...it attacks Western governments but keeps quiet about the Chinese.In my opinion those that believe in western ideals needs to point out the appeasement of the liberal left, push them aside and take action against the CCP . That action involves trying to avoid purchasing Chinese products where possible and forcing them to pay for the damage they have done by placing taxes on their exports...it's not like they could retaliate, the trade imbalance is huge.
The liberal left are generally the spoiled middle classes, those that have most benefited from the status quo , those that are most likely to buy Apple products made by slave labour in factories run on coal fired electricity , spewing pollution into the neighbouring environment. But it's all ok provided the image is right, provided the right level of virtue signalling is put out.
Have fun.
Nah. My argument is that there are major incentives to buy them, not that everyone buys them. It's financially responsible (something I assume you like) to buy cheaply when in a position that surprise expenses are troubling or catastrophic, and if you don't have enough for savings etc etc. Buying cheaply usually means going to either a charity shop or supporting human rights violations through your purchases, buying cheaply means you have more left over for savings. Being financially responsible is more likely to make you violate human rights when you're poorer; and I guess, not being a member of the "spoiled middle classes" yourself, this applies to you equally..
It is not the liberal left's fault that companies use Chinese labour, it is Chinese politics' fault, and our government's fault for allowing it in our country. If you're in government, and you, your friends and donors need these human rights violations to continue for their profits (which applies to Labour and the Tories), they're gonna continue. It won't be put to a vote. You won't get to "have your say". So people, rightfully frustrated by all this, are going to do whatever they can that makes them feel like they have a voice. "Share this on Twitter, solidarity with Chinese workers!", they're people finding their voices in the death rattle of a form of democratic politics which no longer has any relevance or import; a public forum. The same can be said of us talking shit like this on a forum, how wretched we are.
It benefits our corporate crony government for this to be framed as a matter of individual consumer choice (which you're falling for hook line and sinker), because that means they don't have any responsibility for curtailing or sanctioning Chinese imports. Vote with your money! (Our investors have the most money btw). You're thinking in terms of boycotts, which promote individual actions without giving any means of organising them. If it takes an organised effort to make a dent, why not intervene in government for that?
But of course, we can't intervene in government, we never get the choice of whether our establishment will support human rights violations abroad. So, presumably, all we have left are little crumbs of action like consumer choices. And really, as disgusting as it is to wash one's hands of systemic problems like this by buying "ethical products", or sharing a Tweet, it's far, far more disgusting to keep it swept under the rug because it benefits the corporate interest saturated nightmare we call a state. It's not you that's doing this, it's not you that is keeping the inhumane production chains in a state of brutal discipline, so why in the hell are you directing all that hate towards people in much the same position of powerlessness as you? Why are you better than them?
I think it is accurate to say that China’s “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” is a form of state capitalism, but not the state capitalism of say Norway. It is a Communist state capitalism, where a Communist political party reap all the benefits of economic liberalization and privatization (often at the expense of their own people) with their stated goal of achieving Communism.
As some commentators have predicted, China’s rise to power will heavily alter the political and cultural landscape of the future. China’s entrance into the world market has made them a big player. Now western companies and bureaucracies have to kowtow to Chinese influence, for fear of loosing that market. Unfortunately China’s rise hasn’t made them more like us; it has made us more like them.
Stop virtue signalling.
Quoting Chester
Are you working towards a boycott movement? What're you doing that makes it more likely for other people to stop buying Chinese goods?
Quoting NOS4A2
It's not like companies had conniptions about outsourcing manufacturing labour to other countries that brutally discipline their labour forces. Turning a blind eye to human rights violations isn't a specifically Chinese thing, it's a political and corporate job requirement.
Things have changed too because most working class people vote Conservative, the Labour party is now the bastion of middle class metropolitan types...who think they are really clever but fuck up everything they touch...probably because many of them were raised and live in privileged protected environments, safe spaces.
:groan:
Quoting Chester
You're doing exactly the same shit you were criticising in the original post.
"Why don't the liberal left boycott goods manufactured by despotic regimes ? I've never once seen the left initiate such a boycott...apart from South Africa during apartheid . Why is China acceptable but the old South Africa not ?"
How does what I wrote in the OP correlate to what you wrote in your last post?
Marching is generally carried out by the left in order to virtue signal.
When I talk to people about what China has done , the evils it has carried out while the liberal left turns a blind eye, I try to convince them to boycott Chinese goods.
By the way, I'm not racist, I still enjoy a good Chinese take-away...I had one a couple of days ago to show my support to their community.:)
Just wanna say: Great!
I love these kinds of things, Hanover. You aced it.
I've heard that a lot growing up. Usually just after my friends were innocently calling the staff "chinkies".
It’s probably a good idea to differentiate between the government of China and the Chinese people for that very reason, especially since the Chinese people are the greatest victims of the CCP. The rise in hate-crimes against the Chinese in light of the pandemic is stupid.
Exactly. Unfortunately, some are incapable on that score.
You are talking about how the left are worse than you. Because they, allegedly, don't care in the right way about Chinese workers. And apparently you are not virtue signalling.
The left, who you are complaining about for not caring in the right way about Chinese workers. And they are virtue signalling.
The best portion of your argument is that perhaps the Left tends to look more broadly when thinking morally. They want it to be good elsewhere, at least, also. Whereas the Right is often more focused at home. More self-focused. So this opens the Left up to more hypocrisy. Perhaps. But given that the US is acting in proxy all over the world, iow tax dollars are going everywhere, this often leads to responsibility taking on the Left that is less present on the right. Doesn't hurt us, isn't so important. The religious right has no leeway here since they are also focused internationally.
But does anyone boycott, I mean in significant numbers, anymore? Wouldn't this be a criticism of the former Left? even then, only sort of?
And should not caring at all about what one contributes to through purchases be considered a better position`? It requires no effort. It is consistant in its inaction and lack of care. So if someone does one thing intended to make things better but does not do this across the board, is this worse than not giving a shit at all?
The liberal left never say or act against China. You can argue that the right has empowered China too, but it is also the right that is now talking about action ...the left is silent, which is strange given how vocal they are about all the problems they accuse the West of...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/01/hesitating-demand-international-inquiry-china/