You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Sartre and other lost Philosophers

Banno April 19, 2020 at 21:55 8475 views 41 comments
When I were lad... (spoken in best Yorkshire brogue)

We all had a copy of Being and Nothingness on our shelf, and went to see No Exit every second month.

But he never gets a mention any more.

I was tempted to ask if anyone still reads Being and Nothingness. But of course no one ever actually read Being and Nothingness.

Does anyone else find his absence from the forums a bit odd? His star status was once far greater than any other philosopher, with the possible exception of Russell. Yet he never gets a mention now.

Odd, that someone of his status should be so forgotten.

Who else has so fallen from grace?

Comments (41)

neonspectraltoast April 19, 2020 at 22:12 #403518
Maybe sometimes people get too close to truth and are ignored in favor of being lost.
jgill April 19, 2020 at 23:49 #403543
Quoting Banno
I was tempted to ask if anyone still reads Being and Nothingness. But of course no one ever actually read Being and Nothingness.


I did, back in the late 1950s. Existentialism and the Look made an impression and influenced my attitude toward solo climbing. The simple presence of another living soul alters experience.
Banno April 19, 2020 at 23:52 #403545
Reply to jgill Yeah, sure you did :joke: . I got to page two hundred and fifty something.

But yes, the Look remains the most penetrating dismissal of solipsism imaginable.
Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 00:00 #403549
Reply to Banno

I read three quarters of Being and Nothingness in my twenties and pick it up again here and there. The most famous things he said and wrote are ugly things. Ugly is fun but lacks the staying power of the beautiful.
Snakes Alive April 20, 2020 at 00:35 #403559
Reply to Banno Sartre was popular, but among professional philosophers he was never well-respected. There are videos of Derrida just saying he was a bad philosopher, and Heidegger apparently thought he was an idiot.

And it's often what goes in professional philosophy that trickles down to discussion elsewhere.
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 05:36 #403633
Quoting Banno
I was tempted to ask if anyone still reads Being and Nothingness. But of course no one ever actually read Being and Nothingness.


Not only have I recently re-read Being and Nothingness, but I'm reading the Critique of Dialectical Reason right now. I guess I am getting prematurely senile.
Banno April 20, 2020 at 05:43 #403634
Quoting David Mo
I guess I am getting prematurely senile.
:grin:

I'm sure senility would help.
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 05:54 #403635
Quoting Snakes Alive
There are videos of Derrida just saying he was a bad philosopher, and Heidegger apparently thought he was an idiot.


Derrida's views on other philosophers seem irrelevant to me. I have only read half of Derrida's book about the gift and I found it insufferable pedantry. Post-moderns are usually like that.

As for Heidegger, he began by praising Sartre's intelligent insight on his philosophy, and moved to insults when he realized that Sartre was also criticizing him. He was an insufferable egomaniac. Sartre criticized him for defending a hidden theology that despised man. If you have read only some pages of Being and Time you will have realized that the first criticism is accurate. As for the second, Heidegger confirmed it to the letter when he began to exalt Hitler.
It seems to me that Sartre still has a lot to say for anyone who has the patience to read his writings, which are not always easy or, of course, entertaining.

By the way, two months BV (Before Virus) I attended a performance of Nekrassov in my town in a theater filled to overflowing and long minutes of applause. Sartre lives! I was surprised.

What makes Sartre the black beast of most philosophers of his time and of today is his defence of the revolutionary path to socialism and of violence against colonialism. His insistence on the responsibility of intellectuals is not to the liking of contemporary intellectuals who live very well on the heights.
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 06:01 #403639
With Sartre it is like with Freud, everyone abominates them, but everyone uses concepts like bad faith, condemned to be free, hell is the others, etc. that have come from Sartre. There must be be a reason for that.
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 06:03 #403640
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
The most famous things he said and wrote are ugly things.


What if we're ugly and we don't want to see it?
Snakes Alive April 20, 2020 at 06:07 #403641
Another true believer has entered the room, I see...
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 06:14 #403645
I don't see what you see... Vision problems?

180 Proof April 20, 2020 at 06:15 #403646
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 06:20 #403648
Reply to 180 Proof
Thank you.
Streetlight April 20, 2020 at 06:21 #403649
Quoting David Mo
With Sartre it is like with Freud, everyone abominates them, but everyone uses concepts like bad faith, condemned to be free, hell is the others, etc. that have come from Sartre. There must be be a reason for that.


I was going to mention exactly this. Just as Freudian lingo is part and parcel of everyday vocabulary (unconscious, libido, ego, id, on the couch, etc), so too is Sartre's language part of the furniture, even though he's not studied all that much. The return of the repressed.
Banno April 20, 2020 at 06:33 #403652
Quoting David Mo
What if we're ugly and we don't want to see it?


@unenlightened?
Umbra April 20, 2020 at 06:48 #403656
This is interesting, because I have just returned to Being and Nothingness after many, many years, and literally just made a post regarding the book on another thread before seeing this one. All things considered, it's still a fantastic read.
Heracloitus April 20, 2020 at 06:51 #403657
Quoting Banno
Who else has so fallen from grace?


Henri Bergson.
Umbra April 20, 2020 at 06:58 #403660
Reply to emancipate Deleuze made Bergson popular to talk about again for a while, but I don't know if it stuck or encouraged people to actually read him again. Likely not. Personally, while I enjoy reading Deleuze, nothing of his has changed the way I think compared to reading Matter and Memory for the first time.
David Mo April 20, 2020 at 07:10 #403663
Reply to Umbra
A friend translated a book by Deleuze. It was a translation much appreciated by the critics and quoted by experts. Privately he admitted that he hadn't understood anything he was translating. The same thing happened to me with the original. It's just that we weren't true believers.
unenlightened April 20, 2020 at 07:33 #403666


Quoting emancipate
Who else has so fallen from grace?
— Banno


Marcuse, Russel himself. It turns out that dirty old men don't make he greatest moral philosophers. Wittgenstein survives maybe because he was gay.
Umbra April 20, 2020 at 07:54 #403669
Reply to David Mo Ha! I'm not surprised. I will say Deleuze excels at criticism (e.g., his books on Proust and Kant are fantastic) but he never manages to convince me with his overtly philosophical works.
Umbra April 20, 2020 at 08:01 #403671
Quoting Banno
Who else has so fallen from grace?


Just to add to the list here--maybe Levinas (sadly)?

David Mo April 20, 2020 at 08:12 #403672
Quoting Banno
Who else has so fallen from grace?


Every philosopher who does not enter the Olympus of Anglo-Saxon philosophy. In the mid-20th century, there were channels of communication between Europe and the Anglo world. Today there is a wall higher than the Berlin Wall. The one who does not write in Anglo-Saxon journals does not exist. The one who is not quoted in Anglo-Saxon journals goes on into the world of Oblivion.

It is not a question of ideology ...only. It is a question of cultural domination mechanics.
180 Proof April 20, 2020 at 10:11 #403685
Quoting Banno
I was tempted to ask if anyone still reads Being and Nothingness. But of course no one ever actually read Being and Nothingness.

I'd struggled all the way to the end of BnN 1.5x (on my own, not for a class) during my first year at university. The ordeal had left me respecting but hating that old wall-eyed, boujee-comrade. :sweat:

Quoting Banno
Odd, that someone of his status should be so forgotten.

Who else has so fallen from grace?

M. Merleau-Ponty

J. Dewey

M. Buber

T. Paine

P-HT, Baron d'Holbach

Streetlight April 20, 2020 at 10:14 #403686
Quoting 180 Proof
M. Merleau-Ponty


Nah man, M-P is everywhere.
180 Proof April 20, 2020 at 10:21 #403687
Reply to StreetlightX Well, so is Sartre. A respected archive for citations but not - no longer - a cause célèbre in contemporary philosophical circles (or, at least, not for the authors I read).
jkg20 April 20, 2020 at 11:28 #403694
Reply to David Mo :up:
Every philosopher who does not enter the Olympus of Anglo-Saxon philosophy.

Even some who found themselves on those peaks at the beginning of the 20th century ended up being thrown down the mountain. Something very sinister appears to have happened to so called analytic philosophy after WWII.

jkg20 April 20, 2020 at 11:34 #403697
Some examples of who am I talking about: Grace and Theodore De Laguna. Grace even wrote the companion piece to Quine's "Two Dogmas of Empiricism". Theodore was one of the most important philosophers in the USA at the begnning of the century, nobody gives a toss about him now, but he was saying "meaning is use" back in the 1920s.
Number2018 April 20, 2020 at 16:27 #403778
Reply to Banno
Quoting Banno
Odd, that someone of his status should be so forgotten.

What is your answer? Why is he forgotten?
Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 17:09 #403787
Quoting David Mo
What if we're ugly and we don't want to see it?


There's an old saying about beauty and seeing it.
Banno April 21, 2020 at 00:00 #403856
Reply to Number2018 Well, he's French, so there's that.
Deleteduserrc April 21, 2020 at 01:52 #403892
Echoing others, but Sartre's still a cultural signifier of sorts. You'll find references to 'hell is other people' etc in 'smart' cartoons or podcasts. He'll come up in pop philosophy (2016) and pop history books a lot. He's seeped into the culture, just like Freud did, as others have noted. His own work was too insular and autodidactic (I don't know exactly what I mean by that, only it feels autodidactic, which I think he himself would have partially acknowledged, since The Autodidact is a figure in Nausea (I'm told.) But it's hard to build a school around something so insular like that. Were there academic Sartreans ever? (not rhetorical, I sincerely don't know.)
David Mo April 21, 2020 at 05:23 #403939
Quoting csalisbury
But it's hard to build a school around something so insular like that. Were there academic Sartreans ever?


Yes. There's even an academic journal devoted to him: : Sartre International Studies.
Snakes Alive April 21, 2020 at 06:39 #403953
Reply to csalisbury Nausea is really good. I'd take it over most philosophy.

But I'm still not going to read Being and Nothingness. Eh.

I did read Transcendence of the Ego. I remember it was OK, but left no real impression on me, and I can't recall its specific contents well.
Umbra April 22, 2020 at 01:43 #404163
Being and Nothingness is indeed quite a tome, but even if you don't want to commit to reading the whole thing, taking a chapter by chapter approach works out fine considering each chapter is devoted to a particular topic and can be profitably read on its own. Publishers often even make separate books out of just cherrypicking certain chapters; e.g., the book Existential Psychoanalysis basically only consists of Sartre's B&N chapter on bad faith and the chapter of his (excellent) critique and reinvisioning of Freudian psychoanalysis.

If you want to avoid Being and Nothingness entirely, I'd still recommend everyone reading The Imaginary.
Banno April 22, 2020 at 01:48 #404164
Quoting Snakes Alive
Nausea is really good. I'd take it over most philosophy.


You can get pills for that.
Ciceronianus April 23, 2020 at 14:58 #404637
Reply to Banno
I have a copy of Being and Nothingness somewhere. I bought it many long years ago, and am reasonably certain I never read more than a few pages of it. I'm certain I will never read it, being that there is nothing less interesting to me than "Being" and/or "Nothingness." Hee hee.

I can think of at least one philosopher I wish never to be heard of again. Big John Dewey was lost for a time, but seems to be more and more found lately. G.E. Moore, perhaps? Comte?
Pneumenon April 23, 2020 at 15:09 #404642
Quoting Banno
Does anyone else find his absence from the forums a bit odd? His star status was once far greater than any other philosopher, with the possible exception of Russell. Yet he never gets a mention now.


Absent from the forums, yes, but still read by young people in crisis. When I was in high school, I had a friend who was obsessed with Sartre. So he still plays that role.
Ciceronianus April 23, 2020 at 21:00 #404760
Sartre's still around, it seems.

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/333
SophistiCat April 23, 2020 at 21:57 #404780
Quoting Banno
When I were lad... (spoken in best Yorkshire brogue)

We all had a copy of Being and Nothingness on our shelf, and went to see No Exit every second month.


I saw Nausea, and the book is on my short(ish)list. I doubt I'll ever read any of his philosophical writings though, his is not the sort of philosophy that captures my interest.

Reply to emancipate Yeah, apparently during his lifetime he was far more influential than Einstein, then he quickly went out of favor and nowadays is mostly remembered by academics who make a career of him, and a few cult followers.