What do you make of Ryan Holiday?

This thread is the first I've ever heard of him. Not sure why anyone should have heard of him.

He wrote a popular book called The Obstacle is the Way.

Yeah, I was just reading about him on Wikipedia. Seems like he understands marketing well, at least (although not well enough that I've heard about him, but I'm spotty with current pop culture knowledge anyway).

I heard him speak in person at Stoicon.. and he was very smooth and believable. I'll give him that. I just wonder if he is also trustworthy and authentic. What I'm reading about him gives me pause. The message I'm getting so far is, "Trust me... I'm an honest liar and manipulator."

Quoting anonymous66

he was very smooth and believable

Snakes usually are.

Perhaps I'll keep my mind open for a while... He does say in this interview that he wrote his book Trust Me I'm Lying, because he didn't like what was going on (media manipulation) and he wanted to expose it. At about 23 minutes, "Why would I write a book about manipulation if I wanted to keep doing it?"

One thing that I think is interesting about self-help books that are geared towards people reaching particular goals is that they can't work for everyone. They can't even work for most people. Why? Well, because the way that society is structured, it can't keep rolling if we don't have people who work at McDonald's and who work as garbage collectors and highway builders/repairers, etc. And who has a dream of working those jobs? Not many people.

Of course, not everyone is going to attempt to follow the advice of whatever self-help book, but if they were to, it couldn't possibly work for everyone.

Hmmm. Well, as far as Stoicism is concerned, I get the idea that Stoics can flourish wherever they happen to find themselves. Stoics should also know themselves (Socrates is the closest thing to a Stoic sage, and he is held up as an example), and listen to their Daimon. If your Daimon tells you, "I want to pursue X", then you should pursue X.

The secret to sales is of course manipulation. You move products by selling feelings... thing is, that if you're good enough at selling feelings, then you don't even need a product!

LOL. From the article in Sports Illustrated, referring to The Obstacle is the Way.

The book does contain some sports examples. Holiday wrote about Nick Saban, the Alabama football coach, for instance, and his famous process, how he refused to be distracted by what might happen in the future, or what had happened in the past. He focused on the next game, the next day, the next hour. He didn’t get emotional, except in press conferences, when yelling at reporters. He focused on what mattered, what he could control.

That’s stoicism.

Nick Saban is a stoic.

Quoting anonymous66

Hmmm. Well, as far as Stoicism is concerned . . .

That could be for Stoicism, which I don't know much about, really, but Holiday appears to be writing popular self-help books.

Holiday seemed proud of his decision to use Sasha Grey for marketing at American Apparel.. he is also promoting his Growth Hacker Marketing.

Reply to Terrapin Station Yep... Self-help books (3, as far as I can tell) promoting Stoicism.

Interesting. Didn't know about Stoicon or Ryan Holiday. Just read some of his stuff on Amazon. His audience/market seems to be 16-25 year old people seeking guidance and inspiration. Which is fine. The younger generation is under incredible pressure. If some are seeking a way out of becoming the "selfie and reality tv generation", then that is good. The movement for social justice seems to be a movement beyond mere self-interest. But that is perhaps a whole other topic, and the results of that movement are far from settled.

The Ego is the Enemy has bite-sized stories and quotes. So if it seems a bit light weight compared to even Philosophy for Dummies, it may serve some positive functions. Firstly, (along with his Stoicism book) it may help the young reader with life choices, and provide an understandable intro to philosophy, ethics, logical thinking and speaking. And perhaps much more optimistically, it could help to bring back into our culture some sort of philosophical discourse, for lack of a better term. Anything which could replace the current slash-and-burn, take no prisoners style of public debate (cue "Us and Them" by Pink Floyd) would be a welcome relief. But perhaps that is just daydreaming.

I've been reading Holiday's Ego is the Enemy. So far I like it. He does mention some unflattering rather personal accounts of his own life at the beginning of the book...
I'll continue to keep an open mind for now.

Reply to anonymous66 That the ego is the enemy is a misunderstanding of Stoicism. The ego isn't enemy, but rather friend - you just need to learn how to use it, instead of being used by it.

Good luck to him. If he can succeed as an author, publishing that kind of book, then half his luck! (Although, of course, a stoic ought to remain unmoved by success, or its lack.)

I went back and listened to his talk at Stoicon, and noticed that he redefines "virtue" to mean excellence, so he definitely does not have the traditional cardinal virtues in mind (wisdom, courage, justice, temperance), or even moral excellence. But, rather just his own personal definition of excellence, which appears to be "I'm meeting the goals I set."

Stoicism in the ancient world was always about moral excellence. The core of Stoicism is that virtue is the only good, and necessary and sufficient for Eudaimonia. Stoicism has been reinterpreted by Ryan Holiday (and others) so that something other than moral excellence is concentrated upon. In most cases, it's reinterpreted to mean that some kind of agency, or meeting one's goals is the only good.

I get the sense that if you were to ask Ryan Holiday how he knew he was living a good life, he'd answer that he was accomplishing his goals. Whereas the ancient Stoics would answer that they knew they were living good lives, because they were focusing on the virtues, and making progress toward moral excellence.

Reply to Agustino A more accurate title for his book would be something like "Arrogance is the Enemy". or perhaps, "An Overinflated Ego is the Enemy".