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Human Language

Enrique April 16, 2020 at 16:06 11050 views 40 comments
Why did human language evolve? How was this process affected by natural and social selection pressures? What was the sequence and combination of mutations/cognitive features that produced its modern forms? What impact did language have on the character of human behavior as well as our rationality and irrationality? Along more philosophical lines, what is the relationship between language and logical thinking?

Comments (40)

CeleRate April 16, 2020 at 16:53 #402451
Quoting Enrique
How was this process affected by natural and social selection pressures?


We have to extrapolate backwards given that our existence as a species precedes our records, or available tools of science, by one to three hundred thousand years.

At some point in our evolutionary history our vocal musculature came under operant control. This eventually allowed us to ask questions about what we were doing, what we were going to do, and why we were doing it. Our social communities taught us how to answer these types of questions. But what in our available nervous systems (e.g., interoceptive, exteroceptive, proprioceptive) is evolved to provide information on one's intentions or desires?

Quoting Enrique
What impact did language have on the character of human behavior as well as our rationality and irrationality?


I think rationality cannot exist without language. In the absence of language I think all that is left is the unconscious.
I like sushi April 16, 2020 at 18:21 #402467
Reply to Enrique Replace the ‘why’ with ‘how’.

To focus in on a particular area I suggest this for reading:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/linguistics/

You’re asking too many big questions - meaning each require more than a brief response.
A Seagull April 16, 2020 at 18:37 #402471
Quoting CeleRate
I think rationality cannot exist without language. In the absence of language I think all that is left is the unconscious.


And the unconscious is entirely rational. Why wouldn't it be?
unenlightened April 16, 2020 at 19:36 #402476
Quoting A Seagull
And the unconscious is entirely rational. Why wouldn't it be?


Well that is an interesting question. Do you suppose there might be, or must be, a reason for being irrational? I'm not sure that is a rational position whether it is is conscious or not.

Quoting Enrique
what is the relationship between language and logical thinking?


'Logos' is the Greek word for ... well, the word, the language and something more like rationality. So the logic we know of is a formalism of language close to a grammar. "In the beginning was the word. and the word was with God, and the word was God."

But consider a cat, sitting in front of a mouse hole waiting to see if a mouse will come out. One does not call the cat irrational, but neither does the cat articulate its reasons.

So we might say that cats are sensible, they negotiate the world of their senses in an appropriate manner.
But cats say no such thing, they say 'meow'. They behave in a reasonable manner without reasoning.
CeleRate April 16, 2020 at 21:41 #402487
Quoting A Seagull
And the unconscious is entirely rational. Why wouldn't it be?


I relate rationality to reasons, reasons to arguments, arguments to language, and language to consciousness.

However, I'm amenable to considering other usages of the term.
TheMadFool April 17, 2020 at 10:23 #402603
Reply to Enrique

User image Cortical homunculus (look it up)

Language has something to do with the hands :chin: Amazingly the emoji :chin: which I assume means thinking speaks volumes: the hand and the mouth come together when we think and, let's not forget, when we eat. I suspect there's a link between finding food in the most efficient way possible and language. :rofl:
Enrique April 17, 2020 at 12:51 #402615
I'll play the role of Don Quixote for the hell of it. This is my basic theory, tell me if you think its a valid starting point or totally bogus.


To begin with, we can say that mind as such functions by catalyzing experiential states during which a multiplicity of perceptual phenomena are simultaneously held in particular orientations, as a qualitative contexture. This is memory’s essence: coordination of various cognitive processes into a more or less holistic, prolonged representation of the environment, modulated by sensitization and habituation, ultimately serving to enhance discharge of behavior by integration of the body with a plurality of situational stimuli, allowing the organism to grow bigger without maladaptive sacrificing of speed, and better anticipate the most mercurial causes and effects. Observing squirrels in action provides a perfect example, as they instantly abandon their rooting around, raise up and intensely scrutinize environments at the slightest hint of an unfamiliar sound, usually with no idea yet of what they are hearing. The squirrel’s mind repeatedly primes it for rapid fight or flight response by inducing undivided attention, startling the animal into complete devotion of its physiological resources towards a phenomenal representation of the relationship between body position and surroundings, which probably increases reaction time such that not a few squirrel lives have been saved.

The associational rudiments of an inferencing mentality essentially consist in further cognitively and more or less imaginatively aligning perceptual phenomena of experiential states such that predictive behaviors requiring integrated awareness can be discharged with high degrees of coordination. This happens in conjunction with mental mapping of the environment/mind complex, orienting an organism to its circumstances. Consider a frog catching insects with its tongue: it sees the bug, feels its body, matches up these phenomena within a positional substrate, and lashes out in a rapid burst of hybridized behavior, garnering a meal before its prey even knows what happened. If a squirrel spots a tasty nut, it associates this object with its bodily emplacement and whatever memory concepts it has of food and more, all inhering in a holistic matrix of orientation, then coordinates the act of approaching and picking up the nut with its mouth. Squirrels have a strong urge to stow their prizes, perhaps we could call this an aesthetic of nuts, but are not particularly good at remembering the location. At any rate, their mental map allows them to at least accurately hone in on particular tracts of land where they should be looking some months later.

This environment/mind experiential complex evolves in three general domains. More cognitively advanced organisms such as adult mammals and birds sense their own body as the most salient aspect of the environment. If this is not quite humanlike identity in most cases, it is clearly a foundational self-awareness analogous to the sustained feeling we have of our own physiological states. Thousands of species also have awareness of others’ intentions as a foremost environmental cause, helping them judge what all kinds of animals are likely to do in myriad situations, and often what other animals are expecting them to do as well. Many organisms also attribute a kind of selflike concept to nonintentional bodies, frequently as a possessive extension of their own intentionality.

Perception and conception, awareness of oneself, awareness of other intentional selves, and awareness of nonintentional selves function for mind/body/environment interfacing, and as this combination of reasoning and discrimination evolved, the thinking, motive, and concepts of phenomena they are addressed to somehow transitioned into the precursor of human logic, a cognitive process of assembling mental content as frameworks of more associational complexity, with categorically greater resemblance to the emergent structures generated by what we define as formal inferencing from evidence to conclusion. This is an extremely flexible architecturing that imaginatively fits perceptions together in a wider range of orientations, demonstrated most objectively by human language and birdsong, how they can organize the mind's qualitative states as conceptual patterning manifest in expression, within generalized forms that are much more than reflexively intuitive.


I'm thinking that the many components of this template can fluctuate via heredity and brain plasticity, complex combinations of vestigialization, accentuation and relative stasis, so each species has a somewhat unique cognitive trait profile as variations on the basic theme. Language more or less accesses this foundation while thought occurs.
Enrique April 18, 2020 at 22:38 #403127
Reply to I like sushi

I did some reading as you suggested, and gather that the origin of human language is one of the most speculative topics in science and philosophy, so I won't figure it out exactly. But maybe the following is a basic explanatory framework that doesn't neglect any of the many existing theoretical ideas. Do you notice I've lacked to account for some important possible cause with these generalizations?

Emergence of human language participated in loosening up social constraints upon the self, disjuncting acts arising out of introspective conceptualization from brute negative or positive feedback that is exacted in relationships between individuals based around exteroceptive, proprioceptive, affective and interoceptive states (thanks for the terminology CeleRate!). This gave the species’ already functionally essential and quite advanced facility with structural association-making and abstract meaning, its ability to mentally organize phenomena within inferential frameworks of the symbolic, liberation to grow at a rapid pace. More schematized thinking coincided with improved technological prowess, and generally heightened cognitive flexibility made the mind capable of molding human nature via thought and the construction of culture. Behavior entered the domain of meme manipulation, sublimating the species into greater reliance on pure intellectuality, more complex intentionality in general, and making subtle personal insights readily transmissible to the wider community. Memetically-boosted degrees of freedom for motivation, cognitive behavior and communication allowed individuals to actualize themselves in psychically deeper ways through both personally and socially innovative meaning, which incidentally granted human collectives a surplus of proficiency at adjusting to novel conditions, with an increasing endowment of brain plasticity sufficient for expeditious adaptation to every environment on earth.

Not sure I've grasped the relationship between language, symbolic thinking and technical problem-solving.
Wayfarer April 18, 2020 at 23:43 #403159
Quoting Enrique
Inference essentially consists in further cognitively aligning the perceptual phenomena of experiential states such that predictive behaviors requiring integrated awareness can be discharged with high degrees of coordination.


I think the problem you're going to always have with this kinds of arguments is with the nature of meaning. Being able to discern meaning is fundamental to abstract thought; abstract thought and language codify meaning in terms of sounds and symbols, which are ideas that stand for relationships, objects, qualities, and so on.

So the problem with seeking an evolutionary account of these faculties is mainly that the underlying rationale in evolutionary biology is what can be seen to facilitate survival, or the proliferation of the genome. It is fundamentally a theory of how species survive, adapt and ultimately mutate to form new species.

But when it comes to such questions as the nature of language and abstract thought, then trying to understand these through comparisons with animal behaviour is inevitably reductionist. From the evolutionary point of view, 'the brain’s purpose is to direct our internal organs and our external behavior in a way that maximizes our evolutionary success' (Homo Mysterious: Evolutionary Puzzles of Human Nature, David Barash.) Of course, taking this perspective allows you to 'make sense' of a huge range of puzzles - everything falls into place, as it were, as being in service to Dawkins' 'selfish gene'. But no matter how far this principle is extended, it is always ultimately tethered to a single end, which is procreation and the survival of the species.

Accordingly, I'm very suspicious of attempts to 'explain reason' (//edit// which is foundational to language//). Just to use that term already suggests a vicious circularity, I would hope - that in so doing, we're attempting to explain the very faculty which is the source of explanation.

Have a read of this review of a Why Only Us: Language and Evolution by Robert C Berwick and Noam Chomsky.

All animals communicate, but only humans are rational; and for Berwick and Chomsky, human language is primarily an instrument of rationality.


A sentiment with which I'm in full agreement.

I like sushi April 19, 2020 at 05:05 #403259
You’re just talking about what language does. We know what it does. Rather than having ‘knowledge’ embedded in our genes it allowed us to pass on information more quickly.

You really don’t need that many words to say something ‘generalised’.

Quoting Enrique
Why did human language evolve? How was this process affected by natural and social selection pressures? What was the sequence and combination of mutations/cognitive features that produced its modern forms? What impact did language have on the character of human behavior as well as our rationality and irrationality? Along more philosophical lines, what is the relationship between language and logical thinking?


To sum up ...

1) Our capacity for language evolved because there was an evolutionary benefit in communicating internal ideas.
2) It wasn’t effected by social pressures any more than legs or eyes are.
3) That is a question that neuroscience has shed light on. Other animals share communicable capacities with us. None have them all in the combination we do though. The ‘sequence’ they evolve in may not matter at all.
4) Without the capacity for language we wouldn’t be ‘human’ so that question doesn’t work. If you’re talking in broader terms with the term ‘language’ - extended into communication (as in shared capacities we have have that are present in other species) - then you should say so.
5) That is like asking the relationship between science and language. Again, language allows for knowledge to be passed on more quickly than genetic evolution (something you may be confusing with Dawkins’ ‘memes’?).

When it comes to looking at logic and language in combination with consciousness I’d recommend Husserl’s “Logical Investigations”. Another recommendation, if you’ve not read it already, would be Wittgenstein’s “Philosophical Investigations”.

Note: I really think you need to be more frugal with your words in places. I suffer the same disposition often enough when I write ... see ;)
schopenhauer1 April 19, 2020 at 05:15 #403264
Reply to Enrique
I've had a few threads on the evolution and origin of language. There are so many various theories and many of them start from different starting points.

Terrence Deacon starts at physics, and how semiotics comes from constraints in physical processes like entropy and thermodynamics. Chomsky starts at linguistics itself, positing a UG that came about from a "leap" from a very brief genetic change that allowed for the mental function of "Merge". Others start at the neuroscience. Even others start at anthropology. Others start at comparative animal studies in communication. It's almost like you get different conclusions based on where you are starting.
Deleted User April 19, 2020 at 12:52 #403360
Quoting CeleRate
I think rationality cannot exist without language. In the absence of language I think all that is left is the unconscious.
Animals are quite rational about many things. They can even figure things out, like how to open doors, how to work across species to get prey (https://mymodernmet.com/badger-coyote-mutualism/). use alliances to take on a powerful bad leader, solve all sorts of problems including novel ones and more. If they weren't rational, they'd fare poorly. Of course, they are not always rational, but then who is?

Enrique April 19, 2020 at 17:05 #403434
Reply to schopenhauer1

From what I read, dozens of theories exist as to how human language developed, and it seems to me that all of them contain a kernel of the truth. We may never know which causes were the most influential or preconditional, but looking at the many proposed explanations surely gives a strong impression of why the origin of human language was inevitable. It has an important relationship to nearly everything we intuit that humans are and do.

The idea of semiotics arising from thermodynamics and entropy is wild. I suppose whenever causality gets translated into a different form, such as with cell membrane surface proteins, genetic coding, perception, or even physical changes in general, the substance of that process basically amounts to "information". Distinctly human semiotics must be a product of combining informational translation as the essence of action/response with complex intentionality.

Reply to Coben

I agree that animals reason. Seems to me that human rationality does not differ from the rest of nature simply as cognitive function, but it has been elevated to the status of value system in many cultural settings, an intellectual discipline, which seems to be unique.

Reply to Wayfarer

I also think natural selection as traditionally construed along with reproductive success had minimal impact on the evolution of human meaning and rationality. Once we acknowledge that most evolutionary causes are almost entirely unrelated to survival of a species, the theory seems to become much more explanatory.

Reply to I like sushi

I'll have to look into Husserl, phenomenology sounds interesting!
Deleted User April 19, 2020 at 17:28 #403443
Quoting Enrique
I agree that animals reason. Seems to me that human rationality does not differ from the rest of nature simply as cognitive function, but it has been elevated to the status of value system in many cultural settings, an intellectual discipline, which seems to be unique.

Sure. I am not saying all animals are the same. Just that animals are rational, often. And language is an incredible tool. We can do things with it animals can literally not imagine. And lucky us, we do not have to choose between reasoning as animals do and reasoning we can do with words. Though often humans do choose to at least try to only reason with words. It's like tying one hand behind are backs. Though these last few sentences are but a tangent in this thread. My main point was that animals are generally rational.
CeleRate April 19, 2020 at 21:29 #403507
Quoting Coben
Animals are quite rational about many things. They can even figure things out, like how to open doors, how to work across species to get prey


Animals can learn to do many things. However, if you call the things they do, rational, how do you contrast what they do with irrational behavior?
neonspectraltoast April 19, 2020 at 21:49 #403513
It was probably created by a woman as some ancient vocalizations for "Do you want sex?" She and her mate both knew instinctively what "unga bunga?" meant.

It wasn't necessarily an evolutionary leap. It was just a fun noise for her to make when she got horny. And he was mystified by her prowess.

Then he turned around and started doing it, too, assuming that if his fellow cavemen weren't dumb, they'd know what "ngh" meant.
Wayfarer April 19, 2020 at 22:31 #403524
Quoting Enrique
I also think natural selection as traditionally construed along with reproductive success had minimal impact on the evolution of human meaning and rationality.


That seems to be at odds with your OP:

Quoting Enrique
Why did human language evolve?


The way your OP is set out, you seem to be asking human language evolved, yet you're saying now that natural selection 'as traditionally construed' had minimal impact. So that's confusing.

Quoting Coben
Animals are quite rational about many things


I don't agree that demonstrating learned behaviours or being able to solve behavioural problems demonstrates rationality. Maybe it demonstrates the antecedents of rationality.

Enrique April 19, 2020 at 23:35 #403538
Quoting Wayfarer
The way your OP is set out, you seem to be asking human language evolved, yet you're saying now that natural selection 'as traditionally construed' had minimal impact. So that's confusing.


I doubt human rationality evolves primarily as either ecological or social function, but more from an individual mind, language modules etc., selecting its own arrangement on the scale of a single lifespan. The cognitive components of rationality were naturally as well as socially selected, and cultural environments sometimes further rationality while also being molded by it, but its emergence is more like what Carl Jung called "individuation", a complex psyche making itself by what we experience as willpower rather than adaptation. Its a very different kind of evolution, maybe some wouldn't even call it that.
Wayfarer April 20, 2020 at 02:01 #403581
Quoting Enrique
Its a very different kind of evolution, maybe some wouldn't even call it that.


Ah! That clears up a lot, thanks.
Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 04:08 #403609
Quoting Wayfarer
I don't agree that demonstrating learned behaviours or being able to solve behavioural problems demonstrates rationality. Maybe it demonstrates the antecedents of rationality.


The animal sees the human fiddle with a metal thing and then manages to get through a gate keeping the animal in. The animal decides to fiddle in different ways with the metal thing until it finds the way one needs to fiddle with it and gets out. I think that's rational behavior. Animals can learn to use tools, engage in cross species cooperation. There are other examples. .
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/171101151206.htm
Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 04:12 #403611
Reply to CeleRate Animals can also be irrational. They can repeatedy think something is a threat despite experience that it is harmless and not alive. My dog had that with certain objects. Given that many things they do are guided by imprinting or built in programs, the moment then run into new things, there is a strong chance they will be irrational, especially if they do not adapt and learn that though ti triggers their habits it is not what they think it is. Animals have personalities and some are risk takers and don't learn from the consequences of this and then die, despite getting repeated warnings that their tendencies are too risky.
chustavo April 20, 2020 at 04:16 #403612
Reply to Coben best answer. and the noble prize goes to you ( for now ) and we will distribute them like food to everyone.
Wayfarer April 20, 2020 at 04:23 #403613
Quoting Coben
The animal decides...


It's a tendentious article in my opinion. In my view, rationality depends on the ability to abstract and to impute meaning. Most forms of animal behaviour can be understood in terms of stimulus and response, so that some forms of behaviour can be imputed to exhibit a kind of rationality, but in my view it's a kind of projection.

[quote=Jacques Maritain, The Cultural Impact of Empiricism]what the Empiricist speaks of and describes as sense-knowledge is not exactly sense-knowledge, but sense-knowledge plus unconsciously introduced intellective ingredients, -- sense-knowledge in which he has made room for reason without recognizing it. A confusion which comes about all the more easily as, on the one hand, the senses are, in actual fact, more or less permeated with reason in man, and, on the other, the merely sensory psychology of animals, especially of the higher vertebrates, goes very far in its own realm and imitates intellectual knowledge to a considerable extent.[/quote]



Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 05:35 #403632
Quoting Wayfarer
It's a tendentious article in my opinion. In my view, rationality depends on the ability to abstract and to impute meaning. Most forms of animal behaviour can be understood in terms of stimulus and response, so that some forms of behaviour can be imputed to exhibit a kind of rationality, but in my view it's a kind of projection.
Could you tell me why the examples I have given in the posts I responded to and in the articles should not be considered examples of animals being rational? I understand you disagree and your definition pretty much defines rationality as language based. Why should we rule out problem solving via non-linguistic processes as rational?

All forms of animal behavior (humans also being animals) can be understood in terms of stimulus and response. The human gets a set of stimulations, and this set of neurons fire, and then.......just like the physicalists view everything. The phrase 'can be understood' with its passive contruction and easy to fit criterion means very little to me.

Wayfarer April 20, 2020 at 05:56 #403636
Quoting Coben
All forms of animal behavior (humans also being animals) can be understood in terms of stimulus and response.


But, mathematics and so on can't be understood in those terms. There's simply no way of doing it. If you were engaged in mental arithmetic, there's no response involved - there's no behavioral indicators involved.

Reasoning involves 'if this, then that', at the very least. It involves the relationship of ideas. The review of the Chomsky book I mentioned above goes into some detail about it, so forgive the long quote:

The starting point [of Chomsky's analysis] is a radical dissimilarity between all animal communication systems and human language. The former are based entirely on “linear order,” whereas the latter is based on hierarchical syntax. In particular, human language involves the capacity to generate, by a recursive procedure, an unlimited number of hierarchically structured sentences. A trivial example of such a sentence is this: “How many cars did you tell your friends that they should tell their friends . . . that they should tell the mechanics to fix?” (The ellipses indicate that the number of levels in the hierarchy can be extended without limit.) Notice that the word “fix” goes with “cars,” rather than with “friends” or “mechanics,” even though “cars” is farther apart from “fix” in linear distance. The mind recognizes the connection, because “cars” and “fix” are at the same level in the sentence’s hierarchy...

Animal communication can be quite intricate. For example, some species of “vocal-learning” songbirds, notably Bengalese finches and European starlings, compose songs that are long and complex. But in every case, animal communication has been found to be based on rules of linear order. Attempts to teach Bengalese finches songs with hierarchical syntax have failed. The same is true of attempts to teach sign language to apes. Though the famous chimp Nim Chimpsky was able to learn 125 signs of American Sign Language, careful study of the data has shown that his “language” was purely associative and never got beyond memorized two-word combinations with no hierarchical structure.


So, what it takes to form a rational idea seems to me to be inextricably linked with language and abstraction. At best what animals demonstrate is a kind of 'proto-rationality', a rudimentary ability to identify actions and results, but calling it 'rationality' is drawing a long bow. (And I also think there's something of an ulterior motive in doing that. )

Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 06:07 #403642
Quoting Wayfarer
So, what it takes to form a rational idea seems to me to be inextricably linked with language and abstraction. At best what animals demonstrate is a kind of 'proto-rationality', a rudimentary ability to identify actions and results, but calling it 'rationality' is drawing a long bow. (And I also think there's something of an ulterior motive in doing that. )

Well, one can attribute motives in all directions on an issue like this. Even 50 years ago, in science it was professionally risky to even view in professional contexts as having motivations, emotions, intentions, etc. Any researcher who found in her research that an animal had cognitive functions has me with dismissal and extreme resistance: whether the animal is a primate, bird, squid whatever. There is a huge bias to keep a huge gap between humans and other animals in how we are conceived. As in thought of, not birthed.

That said, if we define rationality as needing language, well, there you do.

I think it makes sense to say that problem solving in animals and the use of tools, which can be passed on to children, as a couple of examples are rational and required working stuff out.
Deleted User April 20, 2020 at 06:11 #403644
Quoting Wayfarer
But, mathematics and so on can't be understood in those terms. There's simply no way of doing it. If you were engaged in mental arithmetic, there's no response involved - there's no behavioral indicators involved.
Of course there was. Something go you interested in math books that set up specific neuronal pathways in your mind that you returned to which lead to you studying math more and reading more which led to changing the neuronal pathways. Once this is all in motion of course one set of neuronal pathways can get set off by other neuronal pathways. I am not saying that causation is only external, just that it is all determined, atoms bashing into atoms, chemical machine type stuff as the physicalists conceive of it. Just because it is complex and once in motion, stays in motion doesn't make it any less stimulus and response, it's just a very very complicated version of stimulus and response.

Wayfarer April 20, 2020 at 06:57 #403658
Quoting Coben
There is a huge bias to keep a huge gap between humans and other animals in how we are conceived.


I don't see that at all. One of the main points of evolutionary biology is to insist that humans are on a continuum with other species. It was the religious who wanted to insist on the differentiation of h. sapiens.

Quoting Coben
Once this is all in motion of course one set of neuronal pathways can get set off by other neuronal pathways. I am not saying that causation is only external, just that it is all determined, atoms bashing into atoms, chemical machine type stuff as the physicalists conceive of it. Just because it is complex and once in motion, stays in motion doesn't make it any less stimulus and response, it's just a very very complicated version of stimulus and response.


Sigh. That's just schoolyard materialism. I've argued about this up hill and down dale, but I will leave it with a simple point: reason is the relation between ideas, not between things. Reason transcends physicality.
Enrique April 20, 2020 at 07:03 #403662
Quoting Wayfarer
Ah! That clears up a lot, thanks.


Perhaps it could be called educational holism lol

CeleRate April 20, 2020 at 14:40 #403741
Quoting Coben
Given that many things they do are guided by imprinting or built in programs, the moment then run into new things, there is a strong chance they will be irrational, especially if they do not adapt and learn that though ti triggers their habits it is not what they think it is.


I'm interested in how you contrast rational from irrational. You replied by saying there's a strong chance they will be irrational when confronting something new. You added, "adaptation" and "habits", but none of what you wrote explains the question asked. Your descriptions anthropomorphize the animals you're describing (e.g. risk takers), but you haven't established that animals engage in a kind of Bayesian analysis or other kind of decision-making.

You also said something about what animals think. Do you know what animals think? How do you know? I can only observe how animals behave and the conditions under which the behavior occurs. Are you able to do something else?

Quoting Coben
All forms of animal behavior (humans also being animals) can be understood in terms of stimulus and response.


This is a very limited description of behavioural understanding as it is only a description of reflexes. Instinctual behaviour and instrumental conditioning account for much of what animals do.
Enrique April 22, 2020 at 15:56 #404336
Reply to CeleRate

If you observe animal behavior outside a laboratory setup, its obvious they experience affection, recognize purpose, understand the world logically and even have a sense of humor, all with similarity to humans. I think the idea that animals, including humans, are "governed" in some sense by inborn instinct or behaviorist stimulus/response is a historical relic. The question is how a concept of conditioning that is clearly false for most mammals and birds at the very least became so mainstream.
CeleRate April 23, 2020 at 01:17 #404475
Quoting Enrique
If you observe animal behavior outside a laboratory setup, its obvious they experience affection, recognize purpose, understand the world logically and even have a sense of humor, all with similarity to humans.


This is partly bald assertion and partly non-sequitur. "It's obvious" is also a dubious claim. I could agree, for example, that it would be fine to describe some interactions as affection, but I would have to acknowledge that I couldn't be certain what the intentions of the organisms were. It would just be short-hand. As for the other examples, I'd say that it is far from obvious that one would be justified to characterize their behaviours in that manner.

Quoting Enrique
I think the idea that animals, including humans, are "governed" in some sense by inborn instinct or behaviorist stimulus/response is a historical relic.


I would be curious about what could have led you to arrive at this conclusion. If not instinct, what mechanism is at work for a spider spinning its web? How about the imprinting of geese on what is present shortly after birth? What about nest building and other maternal activities, migration patterns, animal courtship behaviors, etc?

Again, stimulus/response describes reflexive behavior, which accounts for a relatively small amount of why a given response occurs, and a small amount of what an organism learns to do vis-a-vis classical conditioning.

Quoting Enrique
The question is how a concept of conditioning that is clearly false for most mammals and birds at the very least became so mainstream.


Well, the question was, how do you distinguish irrational from rational behavior? But given that it appeared flawed from the start (for the reasons already stated), I'm not holding out hope that there is a coherent account of such a thing as it applies to non-human animals.
Enrique April 23, 2020 at 03:59 #404502
Reply to CeleRate

Whether or not a squirrel licking nuts means affection or in the case of a human for that matter is probably a judgement call, but I think we can agree that a newt licking nuts is closer to a human subjective mental state than Newtonian mechanics lol
h060tu April 27, 2020 at 04:09 #406225
Quoting Enrique
Why did human language evolve? How was this process affected by natural and social selection pressures? What was the sequence and combination of mutations/cognitive features that produced its modern forms?


Nobody knows. We have a lot of linguists working on it. A lot of what you're asking sort of assumes Neo-Darwinism. I would personally bet that language evolution was unrelated to genetics. Maybe not totally, but more or less.

Quoting Enrique
What impact did language have on the character of human behavior as well as our rationality and irrationality? Along more philosophical lines, what is the relationship between language and logical thinking?


Now that has been a subject to quite a debate. The strong version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, namely linguistic determinism, has been debunked. That hypothesis holds that different languages are so vastly different that it's basically like totally different worlds of reality. Now, obviously anybody who knows more than one language (comme moi) knows that there is some degree of maneuverability from one language to the other. It's not totally different. But most people do subscribe to a weak Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, linguistic relativism, which says that your language does have an impact on how you understand and perceive the world. I subscribe to the weak version.
Enrique May 06, 2020 at 22:30 #410162
A hypothetical scenario for how human language evolved, tell me whether or not you think its plausible.


Hominins and humans started to use objects more and more technologically from a combination of causes such as need, accommodating physique, convenience, preference and insightful reasoning. Technological behavior exerted selection pressure on utterance to assume a more object-oriented form, as proliferation of nounlike expressions.

Expression became slightly more structurally complex so as to better conceptually orient the noun represented objects of increasingly complex technological contexts by verbalization, probably in consort with usefulness of describing experiences remotely.

Prehistoric hominins or humans grasped the idea that utterance can be used as a technology for organizing experiences, memories, facts and behaviors, so rudimentary description became a deliberately invented system applied to practical and eventually recreational purposes.

Innovation of this utterance technology progressed for functionality, artistry, and status-attainment. Some selection pressure was exerted towards cognitive ease of acquisition, ultimately leading to unusually advanced grammatical prowess, with the origins of this innate biology in a long tradition of purposefully inventing verbal ability as technology, art form and status symbolism having been largely forgotten.

Lots of selection pressure existed for expansion of linguistic content and meaning, coevolving with the cognitive facility to imagine and manipulate novel object and concept arrangements as well as conceive and project self-meanings, our complex social identities.

Essentially, language wasn't merely expression of technological concepts, it WAS one of the first technologies, also probably the most popular and lasting, so that human intentionality self-evolved/instills a massive synesthesia of imaginative reasoning, motivation and language in its own brain, producing our ridiculously bizarre but extremely potent psyches.


Am I putting too much emphasis on free will in this equation?
I like sushi May 07, 2020 at 04:40 #410217
Reply to Enrique Nicaragua and death children. Research that. There are instances that show how a new language can develop.

Something that is interesting is how ‘tense’ is used. There is very little evidence to work with though.
Enrique May 07, 2020 at 18:47 #410434
Centrality of linguistic evolution to the hominin and human mind might explain why we spend so much time insulting each other with symbolic meaning. Maybe some kind of innate predisposition exists to impulsively incite communicators to keep up. Also explains the human obsession with humor and our unique characteristic of formulating statements as questions, a more passive tone mitigating tension that arises from inborn inclination to conceptually interpret differences of perspective, ability, and general inequality into a posture of conflict, why we spend so much time laughing our asses off? Could account for negative thought patterns and critical thinking, a kind of sublimated insulting. Deeply rooted synesthesia of imaginative reasoning, motivation and language makes sense of psychoanalytic results, how patients evince sometimes bizarre unconscious complexes, infantile wishes and general nonsense while their psyches are being prodded in detail using communication. With civilized society, perhaps the drive to insult runs amok, as categories of psychopathology assailing what we fail to recognize as simple human nature, laws structured such that a niche for flagrant nonphysical offenses is created, and more. Lots of avenues for consideration.
creativesoul May 08, 2020 at 07:32 #410582
Quoting Enrique
Along more philosophical lines, what is the relationship between language and logical thinking?


That all depends upon what counts as language and what counts as logical thinking.

Language less creatures can correctly attribute/recognize causality. If that counts as logical thinking, then language has no relationship with logical thinking in this example.

If logical thinking requires deliberately attempting to follow the 'rules of correct inference', then language is of course required for logical thinking, or the rules do not require language. The latter seems untenable.
creativesoul May 08, 2020 at 07:38 #410583
Quoting Enrique
Centrality of linguistic evolution to the hominin and human mind might explain why we spend so much time insulting each other...


Deliberately insulting another is quite a different matter than merely being insulted by another's words.

Antonorganizer July 07, 2020 at 05:17 #432412
To make it plain up front, the reason I post this comment is to relate it to (self-promote) a free group conversation possibility I started awhile back called Initial Curiosity on meetup.com/Initial-Curiosity. On a couple of my no topic (no pre-selected topic) group dates, an attendee gave an idea to talk about language and it's implications, which became the goal of our conversation.