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Entailment

Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 03:10 15050 views 55 comments
How do you understand entailment? Does it come down to necessity? Reasoning? Is a proposition entailed because of its status as a puzzle piece.. it just fits into a bigger picture?

Not the most intelligent question ever asked.. but maybe worth a ponder.

Comments (55)

apokrisis December 14, 2016 at 03:29 #38478
Reply to Mongrel The question is going to be ambiguous as you can talk about it either in terms of formal logic or physical causality. And then that leads to the issue of how much the two are really the same.

To jump then to what I think is the usual confusion is that most people want entailment to be a story of efficient causes. One particular thing causes that particular thing. This step dictates that step in mechanically necessary fashion.

But the larger view of deduction or causation is the holistic story where the process is one of constraints upon freedoms (or uncertainties). So the argument goes from the general to the particular, not the particular to the particular.

If Kermit is a frog, and all frogs are green, then Kermit is green by logical consequence. That is, the general constraint of "being a frog" is a limit on the colour some particular frog can be. But Kermit could be light green, forest green, aquamarine, and still meet the constraint. The actual shade of green becomes the residual freedom, the further fact about which the statements so far appear indifferent.

So reasoning deductively is about boxing in uncertainty. Information is added to limit the scope of the (Kantian) unknown. And even physical causality has this general nature - according to quantum physics now.
Cavacava December 14, 2016 at 03:49 #38484
Reply to Mongrel

I have been thinking about contingency recently, how the only necessary notion is that everything is contingent. If p is given, then it must necessarily entails -p, as a contingent possibility. That's how I understand entailment.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 03:54 #38486
Reply to Cavacava The given always appears against a background of other possible worlds?
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 03:54 #38487
Quoting apokrisis
So reasoning deductively is about boxing in uncertainty.


Uncertainty on the part of whom?
Cavacava December 14, 2016 at 04:15 #38493
Reply to Mongrel

What is given could have always been otherwise. What does bringing other worlds into this context add? Must the positing of an absolutely contingent world entail the possibility of an absolutely necessary world?
apokrisis December 14, 2016 at 04:16 #38494
Quoting Mongrel
Uncertainty on the part of whom?


Depends. It could be a particular inquiring mind or it could simply be the world physically.

That would be the advantage of my semiotic approach. It applies the same way in either sphere.
The Great Whatever December 14, 2016 at 04:17 #38495
You can define entailment model-theoretically. For any model, if if A is true relative to that model, then B is true relative to that model, then A entails B.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 04:20 #38496
Reply to apokrisis When it comes to applying logic, there is certainty by virtue of the knowledge of necessity or uncertainty by virtue of ignorance.

The world is physically ignorant? That appears to be word salad.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 04:24 #38497
Quoting Cavacava
What is given could have always been otherwise. What does bringing other worlds into this context add? Must the positing of an absolutely contingent world entail the possibility of an absolutely necessary world?


I'll have to ponder this. Just as an aside.. you're sounding a little like Yoda.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 04:30 #38500
Quoting The Great Whatever
You can define entailment model-theoretically. For any model, if if A is true relative to that model, then B is true relative to that model, then A entails B.


Would it be possible to model the actual world?
The Great Whatever December 14, 2016 at 04:31 #38501
Reply to Mongrel dun't matter what you're modeling.
apokrisis December 14, 2016 at 04:36 #38502
Reply to Mongrel You ignored that I specified ignorance due to indifference. So that is where my position is based on a full four causes analysis. Purposes are alway in play. Thus even physically, there can be differences that don't make a difference. We could call them thermal fluctuations or virtual events.
andrewk December 14, 2016 at 04:54 #38504
Quoting Mongrel
How do you understand entailment? Does it come down to necessity? Reasoning?

I used to puzzle over this quite a lot - assuming that what you're actually asking is about the meaning of logic. In the end I dissolved the puzzle by concluding it's just a language game. We play the game because we have found it useful in the past and we are programmed by evolution to believe that things that have been useful in the past will be useful in the future.

Under that interpretation, the statement that A entails B just means that the two events, or propositions, satisfy a certain relationship that is specified in the language game we call logic.
Terrapin Station December 14, 2016 at 10:25 #38525
X entails y is the same as y is implied by x, in the sense of y validly following from x.

You need to know what validity is to understand that. Traditionally, validity obtains when it's impossible that premises are true and a conclusion false, where traditionally, "and" in that definition is parsed as "either/or," so that validity obtains when either (a) it's impossible that premises are true, or (b) it's impossible that the conclusion is false, or (c) both (a) and (b).

This is relative to the particular species of logic being employed, so that validity, and thus entailment, are going to be different in traditional, bivalent logic with excluded middle versus relevance logics, paraconsistent logic, etc.
Wayfarer December 14, 2016 at 10:27 #38526
Entailment is simply another term for 'logical necessity'.

An entailment is a deduction or implication, that is, something that follows logically from or is implied by something else. In logic, an entailment is the relationship between sentences whereby one sentence will be true if all the others are also true.


What this ought to entail is that 'entailment' is the relationship between ideas.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 13:42 #38556
Quoting Cavacava
What is given could have always been otherwise. What does bringing other worlds into this context add? Must the positing of an absolutely contingent world entail the possibility of an absolutely necessary world?


Well true propositions represent aspects of the actual world.. What do false propositions represent? Some of them could be said to represent other possible worlds. Just as the actual world stands out in thought against a background of other possible words, true propositions stand out against a background of false ones.

Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 13:44 #38557
So let's say I have a model M of the actual world from start to finish. Any proposition that is true of M entails ALL other propositions that are true of M.

Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 13:48 #38559
Quoting andrewk
Under that interpretation, the statement that A entails B just means that the two events, or propositions, satisfy a certain relationship that is specified in the language game we call logic.


But rule following has to be anchored somewhere. Quine showed (in Truth by Convention) that in regard to application of logic, the anchor can't be anything external. It's apriori. Do you agree with that?
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 13:50 #38561
Reply to Terrapin Station So you're echoing what TGW said.. that it's an if/then situation.
Terrapin Station December 14, 2016 at 13:53 #38564
Quoting Mongrel
Any proposition that is true of M entails ALL other propositions that are true of M.


Someone might have that view, but it would be very unusual, including that it wouldn't be clear what they'd have in mind by entailment. On the surface of it, it would appear that maybe they see every fact as a necessary fact that is somehow causally connected to every other fact, and they're doing something that seems like a conflation of causality and implication (but they might have a different explanation that would make that not a conflation--again, it would partially depend on how they're thinking of entailment).
Terrapin Station December 14, 2016 at 13:56 #38566
Reply to Mongrel I agree with him that it's relative to something--although it's relative to the logical "system" we're employing, not (just) a(ny) "model," And I don't agree with him beyond that. Both A and B being true relative to some system or model doesn't amount to A or B entailing each other. Entailment is a matter of implication or logical following, and that's a matter of validity with respect to argumentation. A is only entailed by B if B implies A. That is, if A follows from B. Both A and B being true with respect to M isn't sufficient for B to imply A.

Say that we had a model (hopefully without needing to argue just what a model is) that encompassed mathematics. Well, that 2+2=4 doesn't imply that C=2?r, even though both are true in that model.
Cavacava December 14, 2016 at 15:22 #38578
Reply to Mongrel


Do you think entailment is sense dependent or reference dependent. Sense dependent is epistemological and reference dependent is ontological. If you cannot understand a concept (A) without understanding another concept (B), then the concept (A) is sense dependent and a question of knowledge. If concept (A) cannot be without a concept (B) it is reference dependent, and a ontological issue. So, is entailment epistemological?

[as an aside, around midnight I feel like Yoda]
Agustino December 14, 2016 at 15:35 #38583
Quoting Mongrel
Not the most intelligent question ever asked

Clearly ;)
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 16:27 #38592
Quoting Cavacava
Do you think entailment is sense dependent or reference dependent. Sense dependent is epistemological and reference dependent is ontological. If you cannot understand a concept (A) without understanding another concept (B), then the concept (A) is sense dependent and a question of knowledge. If concept (A) cannot be without a concept (B) it is reference dependent, and a ontological issue. So, is entailment epistemological?


I think it's epistemological. For instance:

A: I said, "I have a dog."

If one knew everything about my dog, one would know all sorts of things about how she relates to aspects of the universe... that she likes tennis balls, that she weighs 15 lbs, how far she is from Neptune, and so on. These are truths entailed by A. Is that right?

That's sort of making use of Leibniz's complete individual concept.

Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 16:31 #38594
Quoting Terrapin Station
I agree with him that it's relative to something--although it's relative to the logical "system" we're employing, not (just) a(ny) "model,"


I think we do have to have some model because just logical possibility will become so open-ended that it's meaningless.

A: I said, "I have a dog."

All sorts of things are logically possible here.. but I don't think all those things are entailed. I think entailment is more about how any particular thing is related to everything else. Logic is on the scene, but only because models necessarily employ some sort of logic.
Terrapin Station December 14, 2016 at 16:44 #38596
Reply to Mongrel

It's not just whether something is logically possible. Entailment is implication, or that something follows from something else.

Things follow from "I have a dog," but it's easier to understand first if you understand it in terms of an argument, so that we have a set (>1) of premises.

So, for example, "I have a dog" and "all dogs are creatures with hearts." From that, "I have a creature with a heart" is entailed--that is, it's implied by the two premises, or it follows from them.

Or, "I have a dog" and "All dogs are animals named Fido." It's entailed by that that you have an animal named Fido. Of course, the second premise in this case isn't true--not all dogs are animals named Fido, but that doesn't matter for entailment. Entailment is about what is implied by or what follows from something. "I have a dog," "All dogs are animals named Fido," "Therefore I have an animal named Fido" is a valid argument. (It's just not sound, since soundness hinges on the premises being true.) But entailment obtains when we have a valid argument. In a valid argument, the conclusion is entailed by the premises.

So it's not just any logical possibility.

Re "I have a dog," by the way, as I mentioned before, there are things that are entailed by that, but they're limited to things like "There are dogs," "There is something called 'I'," "'I''s can have possession of things," and even "I have a dog" (that's simply "If P, then P").
andrewk December 14, 2016 at 21:32 #38620
Reply to Mongrel I don't know if I agree with it in general. I am dubious about words like 'anchoring'. But in this case it seems an OK question, the answer to which, I think, is that it is anchored in our nature: we are programmed by evolution to be inclined to follow the rules of the logic game.
Janus December 14, 2016 at 21:51 #38625
Reply to Mongrel

I think the ability to see what is entailed by propositions and situations must be an intuitive capacity; entailment is simply knowable a priori and cannot be analyzed further.
apokrisis December 14, 2016 at 22:11 #38630
Quoting Mongrel
A: I said, "I have a dog."

If one knew everything about my dog, one would know all sorts of things about how she relates to aspects of the universe... that she likes tennis balls, that she weighs 15 lbs, how far she is from Neptune, and so on. These are truths entailed by A. Is that right?


Quoting Terrapin Station
Things follow from "I have a dog," but it's easier to understand first if you understand it in terms of an argument, so that we have a set (>1) of premises.


This illustrates how entailment is "mechanical". It claims states of constraint that are absolute. And speaks to the way such states can be constructed.

So as I say, the physical reality is different. Constraints can never be absolute. Freedoms - either as ontic material entropy or epistemic informational uncertainty - can only be minimised, not eliminated. It is an important discovered fact of nature that it is indeterministic in the final analysis.

Also, constraints in nature tend to be contextual or holistic. A mountain or an earthquake are events produced by circumstances not of their own making. It is the accidents of plate tectonics and other geomorphic forces that entail the building of a mountain, the fissuring of a fault-line.

So there is a way that nature is.

Then life and mind come along and can play logical (or semiotic) tricks. They are modellers in a modelling relation with the world (a model being a formal system of entailment connected to the world by "acts of measurement").

So a modeller seeks to impose constraints on freedoms (ontic or epistemic, material or informational) in pursuit of some overarching purpose. There has to be a reason for being reasonable. And while it is still impossible for such constraints on nature to be absolute, it is not that hard for constraints to be "good enough" to achieve a purpose. A model can be indifferent to any difference which doesn't make a difference (to it).

And where a modeller really wins out over nature is the ability to construct states of constraint. A modeller can stick bits of an argument together to form some strait-jacket arrangement which forces nature into some tight corner.

That is the basis of the mechanistic view of reality. Petrol vapour explodes given a spark. But if you wrap that explosion around with pistons, cylinders, crankshafts and all the other bits of an engine - plus have control over the timing of the vapour puffed into a cavity, and the spark that ignites it - you are in business. You can drive right over nature in your SUV.

All life constructs these kinds of mechanisms. A bird makes a nest to protect its eggs. A spider spins a web to trap flies. At work is a mind that can build something that serves a purpose in mechanical step by step fashion.

So if we are looking for the origins of logic, for the reasons why it might be an abstraction that works, it is easy enough to see those origins in the rise of life and mind as a semiotic modelling relation.

First comes the ability to impose some state of constraint on nature (one that serves a purpose and is not merely an accident). And then comes the ability to assemble systems of constraint, step by step.

Thus entailment is indeed all about implication. It is about constructing states of constraint (material or informational) that restrict nature to such a degree it has no choice but to behave in a desired way. The rules of logic are all about encoding that biological imperative - the modelling relation - in the most abstract and universal set of rules we can imagine.

Again, the fact that nature is at base indeteministic - incapable of being completely constrained, is something that is left out of normal discussions of logic and thus results in great confusion when it comes to non-pragmatic "theories of truth".

But pragmatically, it's not a big deal as naturally all the attention of logic-users goes to what logical thinking can achieve. So it is the ability to construct arguments - formal systems of entailment - that gets celebrated. It is a remarkable fact that modellers can regulate the world to the degree that their desires can be reliably cashed out in systems of logical necessitation.

We can just get in our cars and ... drive.
Terrapin Station December 14, 2016 at 23:17 #38647
Quoting apokrisis
This illustrates how entailment is "mechanical". It claims states of constraint that are absolute. And speaks to the way such states can be constructed.

So as I say, the physical reality is different. Constraints can never be absolute. Freedoms - either as ontic material entropy or epistemic informational uncertainty - can only be minimised, not eliminated. It is an important discovered fact of nature that it is indeterministic in the final analysis . . .


Like usual, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. Even things that seem to me should be simple I don't get. For example, "It claims states of constraint"--I'm not sure what "It" is given the way you've constructed your sentences. I just can't follow you most of the time.
Mongrel December 14, 2016 at 23:38 #38656
Quoting John
I think the ability to see what is entailed by propositions and situations must be an intuitive capacity; entailment is simply knowable a priori and cannot be analyzed further.


That's a fascinating take. Why do you say that?
apokrisis December 14, 2016 at 23:41 #38658
Quoting Terrapin Station
For example, "It claims states of constraint"--I'm not sure what "It" is given the way you've constructed your sentences.


"It" is "entailment", of course. And the construction of the sentences indeed entails that interpretation on any reasonable view.

"Entailment" is the subject of the first sentence. So under normal grammatical conventions, the use of the pronoun "it" continues to refer to "entailment" unless some other information is introduced.

Your reading has already been epistemically constrained by the mention of "entailment" and so the meaning of "it" is logically entailed - even if, as you point out, what could stop and protest that your understanding of "it" is not absolutely constrained. There remains still a possibility of uncertainty.

Thus you illustrate my points nicely. Even if that is the last thing you want to do.

Quoting Terrapin Station
I just can't follow you most of the time.


But that's not because I'm a poor writer. It's because you never seem to put much effort into understanding things before you tap out your replies.




Janus December 15, 2016 at 00:07 #38665
Reply to Mongrel

I think insight is required to see entailment. It can't be just be a matter of following rules, because, for a rule to be usable, we must be able to see how to follow it, which would entail either insight or further rules about how to follow it. The latter would lead to an infinite regress, so I conclude there must be sheer insight (intuition) at work in all our thought.

I think it follows that insight is intrinsic to both analysis and synthesis. In the former we intuit how things may be broken down into parts and in the latter we can intuit how elements not obviously related to one another may possibly be related.
jkop December 15, 2016 at 00:54 #38674
Reply to John
Insight, or rhetorical reason, which precedes the argument that entails. Like a skill that one acquires which enables identification of entailment.
Janus December 15, 2016 at 01:00 #38676
Reply to jkop

Are you saying that insight is required in order to construct arguments (structures of entailment)? If so, I would agree; insight is certainly required at least as much to construct arguments as it is to follow them. The former (at least) requires both synthesis and analysis.
Cavacava December 15, 2016 at 02:10 #38686
Reply to Mongrel

A: I said, "I have a dog."

If one knew everything about my dog, one would knoFw all sorts of things about how she relates to aspects of the universe... that she likes tennis balls, that she weighs 15 lbs, how far she is from Neptune, and so on. These are truths entailed by A. Is that right?

That's sort of making use of Leibniz's complete individual concept.


Your question about the dog lead me off in another direction (for a minute).

Do you think there are other types of entailment besides logical? I think entailment works within a Hegelian dialectic. A dialectical movement which preserves and negates both premises and in doing so generates a synthesis which is negatively determined. I guess what is entailed must be part of the synthesis.

Hegel dialectic has three moments:
1) understanding of the subject, its definition, what it means.
2) It cancels, negates and preserves 1) in a moment of self-sublation
3) the moment in which a new unity is grasped, the synthesis.

I also thought about entailment that might be involved in genealogical arguments, but these arguments are, it seems to me, to me more speculative reconstructions of history, which offer alternate explanations and suggest new possibilities. I not sure but don't think anything like logical or dialectical entailments are involved.



jkop December 15, 2016 at 09:02 #38748
Reply to John
Well, I suppose one could identify entailment (say, as a recognizable pattern, possibility, or state of affairs) regardless of insight on what entails or why. An ability to identify the relation is sufficient.
Janus December 15, 2016 at 09:40 #38751
Reply to jkop

Recognition of patterns equals intuition, no?
Terrapin Station December 15, 2016 at 11:14 #38759
Reply to apokrisis Quoting apokrisis
"It" is "entailment", of course. And the construction of the sentences indeed entails that interpretation on any reasonable view.


But entailment isn't something that can make claims about anything.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting for you to write any differently than you do. I'm just letting you know that your writing is often impenetrable for me.
Mongrel December 15, 2016 at 14:40 #38782
Quoting andrewk
I don't know if I agree with it in general. I am dubious about words like 'anchoring'. But in this case it seems an OK question, the answer to which, I think, is that it is anchored in our nature: we are programmed by evolution to be inclined to follow the rules of the logic game.


Witty didn't use the word "anchoring" when he noted that rule following can't go on forever. Logical positivists sought to externalize it. Quine showed that we can't externalize it. It's apriori.

And you're committing the Evolution fallacy: "Evolution explains p" while p is used to explain evolution.
Mongrel December 15, 2016 at 14:47 #38784
Quoting Cavacava
Do you think there are other types of entailment besides logical? I think entailment works within a Hegelian dialectic. A dialectical movement which preserves and negates both premises and in doing so generates a synthesis which is negatively determined. I guess what is entailed must be part of the synthesis.

Hegel dialectic has three moments:
1) understanding of the subject, its definition, what it means.
2) It cancels, negates and preserves 1) in a moment of self-sublation
3) the moment in which a new unity is grasped, the synthesis.


This is kind of trippy. The object of entailment isn't a proposition here. It's a pending comprehension of the dependence of the subject?

May be off track from your thoughts here, but I see a trail here leading to the object of entailment in all cases being Everything. That's also happening with my use of Leibniz's CIC to explain entailment.. and it's also the reason entailment is not a useful concept for describing truthmaking... every thing ends up being a truthmaker for every truth-bearer.

Quoting Cavacava
I also thought about entailment that might be involved in genealogical arguments, but these arguments are, it seems to me, to me more speculative reconstructions of history, which offer alternate explanations and suggest new possibilities. I not sure but don't think anything like logical or dialectical entailments are involved.


I happen to be reading Geneology of Morals right now. Ha!
Mongrel December 15, 2016 at 14:49 #38785
Quoting John
I think it follows that insight is intrinsic to both analysis and synthesis. In the former we intuit how things may be broken down into parts and in the latter we can intuit how elements not obviously related to one another may possibly be related.


Yeah... the very concept of entailment (that things are related) has to be apriori knowledge.
jkop December 15, 2016 at 20:56 #38863
Reply to John
I don't know whether the ability to recognise something requires intuition or insight. To intuit, or see, are modes of perception, and what sets the intentional features of the entailment relation that you intuit might just be the present brute reality of the relation. For example, a sea urchin hardly intuits anything (it has no brain), yet acts as if it would intuit the entailment of present predators (e.g. scoops up gravel to hide).
andrewk December 15, 2016 at 21:00 #38866
Quoting Mongrel
And you're committing the Evolution fallacy: "Evolution explains p" while p is used to explain evolution.

No.

Evolution explains q, while p explains evolution.

q is the proposition 'Humans can't help but use logic'
p is 'Logic'

p=/= q
Mongrel December 15, 2016 at 21:11 #38868
Reply to andrewk I don't think there's any need for me to walk you through what you actually said.
andrewk December 15, 2016 at 21:16 #38870
Reply to Mongrel Of course not. A courteous retraction of the 'fallacy' accusation would be perfectly sufficient.
Mongrel December 15, 2016 at 21:58 #38881
Reply to andrewk Too busy to think it through then, huh? OK.
Janus December 15, 2016 at 22:43 #38894
Reply to jkop

I would say that since the sea urchin is a living creature it perceives, which is the same as to say intuits, patterns, however minimally.

Also, there is a distinction between cognition and re-cognition. Although it might also be said that cognition must always already involve recognition. In any case recognition is not merely the registering of a pattern, but the knowing of that pattern as being the same as or alike to another. Such a thing obviously cannot be rationally deduced, so I conclude that it must be intuited.
Janus December 15, 2016 at 22:45 #38897


Reply to Mongrel

Agreed. :)
Janus December 15, 2016 at 22:46 #38899
Reply to andrewk

Are you only claiming that evolution explains why people use logic, or are you claiming that evolution explains the form that logic itself takes?
andrewk December 16, 2016 at 01:16 #38933
Reply to John Hooray, a polite interlocutor! Excellent, and a good day to you John!

To your question: it is the former I was thinking of. Now that you mention it, I think that evolution may possibly also have a role in the type of logic we mostly tend to use - eg a preference for including double-negative elimination in our rules rather than restricting ourselves to constructivist logic, but I am less sure of that.
apokrisis December 16, 2016 at 01:31 #38938
Quoting John
Also, there is a distinction between cognition and re-cognition. Although it might also be said that cognition must always already involve recognition. In any case recognition is not merely the registering of a pattern, but the knowing of that pattern as being the same as or alike to another. Such a thing obviously cannot be rationally deduced, so I conclude that it must be intuited.


Pattern recognition or pattern matching is more evolutionarily basic than cognition or deduction. And it follows from inductive learning. That is Hebbian association or Bayesian prediction.

You don't even have to think to recognise. It works at the level of habit.

So intuition would be what Peirceans would call abduction - the flash of insight which counts as inference to the best explanation. It is being able suddenly to see how a deductive account could supply the correct explanation. So rather than working it out step by step, the whole of the answer can be seen as if retrospectively.

And yes, that is an advanced form of recognition or pattern matching. Studies of creative thought show how we can juggle ideas about until they suddenly snap into place - finding a suitable fit with a schema or conceptual structure already in use for something else.

So we can recognise "this current problem" as a variant of "that old familiar problem". But it is the deductive structure we recognise as having a probable fit - so rather abstract features and relations, rather than concrete details, like the feathers, beak and tail that allow us to categorise a bird as a bird in a flash of pattern matching.
apokrisis December 16, 2016 at 01:34 #38940
Quoting andrewk
Now that you mention it, I think that evolution may possibly also have a role in the type of logic we mostly tend to use - eg a preference for including double-negative elimination in our rules rather than restricting ourselves to constructivist logic, but I am less sure of that.


Strewth. If formal logic arose within the gene pool of ancient Greece, how on earth did all of us without Mediterranean bloodlines manage to master it? Incredibly speedy convergent evolution?
Janus December 16, 2016 at 01:50 #38945
Reply to apokrisis

Yes, I agree with you that we can recognize abstract formal patterns as well as material formal patterns. And I do think you are right in the sense you put it that recognition is more basic than cognition. It does seem kind of strange to say that, though, since re-cognition seems to mean 'cognition again'.
Janus December 16, 2016 at 01:52 #38946
Reply to andrewk

Thanks Andrew, I don't have a ready response to your conjecture here; I'll need to think about it more. Or perhaps it would help if you fleshed it out a bit.