Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh? Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was
Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?
Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.
Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.
Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.
It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.
Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?
That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.
Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.
Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?
Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?
Why and how does knowledge kill us?
If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?
The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.
This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.
The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.
In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.
Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.
Thoughts?
Regards
DL
Most, as well as scriptures, say that it was through Adam, even though Christians sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh’s plan.
Given the necessity, Adam, from that, may not be the culpable one and his punishment would be unjust.
Satan had already sinned in heaven before being cast into Eden.
It can be truthfully said that she was the first sinner on earth if we ignore Yahweh.
Further, would you say that Eve sinned, given that Satan or the talking serpent deceived her?
That deception would take lies, and that is a sin, and that sin also preceded Adam’s sin.
Many do not see what the serpent says as a lie, which complicates things.
Was the initial sin, regardless of who did it, a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan like Christians sing in their Exultet hymn?
Did Yahweh lie when he told Adam that he would die if he educated himself with the knowledge in the Tree of Knowledge?
Why and how does knowledge kill us?
If it does, should we keep our children as blind to it as Adam and Eve initially were?
The Eden myth can get quite complicated, especially when Christians call it a fall, then say it was necessary so as not to derail Yahweh’s plan.
This last being what the Jews wrote into their myth and which they say is not the Original Sin of the Christian interpretation, but more like the Original virtue that the Jews call it.
The opposite of what Christianity says, if you ignore their happy fault view.
In terms of first sin, I see Yahweh, since sin was necessary to him as the first sinner, followed by Satan, Yahweh’s loyal opposition and teacher of humankind, and then Adam.
Why Eve at the end of Genesis 3 has to then be second class to Adam, --- he shall rule over you, --- would seem like Yahweh punishing the wrong party.
Thoughts?
Regards
DL
Comments (79)
In a word no. That theory is an old ancient paradigm/Judeo Christian translation issue. Think of sin or evil as intrinsic finitude. Imperfection in the ability to do things correctly; ignorance.
Existentially, imperfection or finitude is another name for temporal-ness, mortality, limits of all knowledge about consciousness, and the universe, so on and so forth. Adam and Even is just a metaphor in Christianity and not meant to be taken literally.
Evil=Ignorance.
Next question. LOL
Genesis explains why snakes don't have legs. It also explains why childbirth is so traumatic for humans and why women are physically weaker.
Genesis is part cosmology, part history, part politics, and part science. Ancient people didnt divide these fields up the way we do.
Yet the vast majority of Christians have to be literalists, to some extent, to believe their dogma and religion.
Regards
DL
So you think Yahweh augmented the pain in child birth out of spite?
Do you have anything scientific to show that serpents had legs in the past?
They are also still supposed to be around but I have yet to chat with one. You?
Regards
DL
Is there any import associated with regurgitating the ancient paradigms?
In other words, what are you trying to argue for or against? It seems as though you're struggling to reconcile something... , no?
God was not known in Genesis as Yahweh, but later in Exodus at 6:3, God reveals his name as having been Yahweh. Despite this claim in Exodus, it's been questioned by biblical scholars whether El-Shaday, which was his name in Genesis, was actually a different, and more ancient God of Egypt named El. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_History_of_God.
Your question therefore cannot really be answered without first asking from whom's perspective are you asking it. The Christian tradition provides its analysis to the question but then so does the Jewish tradition, and then there would be a secular response as well, which wouldn't come from a position of faith, but would come from a position of historical and literary analysis. From my own perspective, the secular discussion is the most interesting.
Yes, that being the answer to why Christians are so conflicted on Eden and cannot seem to decide if we fell or were elevated, yet the myth has been used by Christians to accentuate their homophobia and misogyny and refusal to grant all women and gays full legal status that they deserve.
Regards
DL
I agree.
As to perspective, I mentioned the Christian take and the Jewish take.
I did not mention the roots of the Jewish myth as coming out of Egypt and Sumer.
I don't care about the latter as the homophobia and misogyny in Christianity today is from their not understanding Eden and sin.
Regards
DL
24% of Christians take the bible to be literally true. https://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx. The view is most prevalent among evangelicals and fundamentalists.
The word "dogma" has a very specific meaning in the Catholic faith, which isn't really applicable to Protestants, so your claim that literalism is necessary for all Christians so that they can sustain their dogma is unclear because it's not clear what Protestant dogma would be (and it's not clear if you use the term Christian to include all denominations, including Mormons who have a a very distinct theology).
I'd also point out that a claim that the Bible is to be understood by construing it using simplistic literalism is difficult to maintain. It's unclear why anyone, including God, would be limited to speaking in purely stark terms and why the use of metaphor would be off limits
There are specific passages forbidding homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) which are not part of the Eden story of Genesis. That is, the anti-homosexuality laws do not derive from Genesis, but they are explicitly stated in Leviticus
Sigh.
How often have you heard some a hole Christian say, god said Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve?
How often have you heard, he shall rule over you, when Christians are trying to justify their misogyny?
Regards
DL
Ahh, there it is. The hidden agenda/ axe to grind. Well, not sure where to begin other than you seem stuck on misinterpretation. Regarding homophobia, the Christian Bible is not a modern day medical science book. The notion that someone like Jesus would condemn Gay's is indeed an old paradigm/interpretation/translation error. For the most part, people are born that way.
Therefore, as you've claimed above, if it (these things) are indeed a myth, then I urge you to listen to yourself and those who are trying to guide you. Those who are making distinctions between, say; dogma, fundamentalism, literalism, allegory, metaphor, interpretation, human translation error, lost Gospels, early church politics, etc., I would strongly recommend you study same.
I sincerely hope you can get over this angst. After all, in the 21st Century information age, shouldn't you be more sophisticated in your perspective on these things?
I sense an interminable axe to grind here. Be well my friend.
Quoting Hanover
All who believe in Jesus and or the Christ, have to read scriptures literally as that is the only place, basically, where anything is said of a Jesus.
I think that that is the vast majority of Christians. Mind you we have to ignore Jesus' description of believers or those with faith. If I go by his standard, there are no Christians at all.
Quoting Hanover
Actually, scriptures say that if one wants to perfect ones wisdom, one has to get out of the Christian viewpoint and loo elsewhere for perfection in thought.
As you pointed out, Jesus himself used metaphors for the peasants. He also had a more complicated teaching for the disciples.
Your stat is belied by other surveys that put belief in Jesus at about 70% and in hell which is even higher.
Regards
DL
Been there and don that a long time ago.
Quoting 3017amen
On my axe to grind.
If you are happy with the homophobia and misogyny, then do nothing to fight it.
You not understanding, and trying to discourage the seeking of a better view for gays and women, and just let those continue, you are not much of a man.
Keep your satanic advice as I live by the Golden Rule.
Regards
DL
"Therefore, as you've claimed above, if it (these things) are indeed a myth, then I urge you to listen to yourself and those who are trying to guide you. Those who are making distinctions between, say; dogma, fundamentalism, literalism, allegory, metaphor, interpretation, human translation error, lost Gospels, early church politics, etc., I would strongly recommend you study same."
Could you image the first time someone saw a snake moving? Weird. Or the first time someone reported a homosexual act. "You put what in .. what?"
Been there and done that.
Regards
DL
This isn't responsive to my claim that the biblical prohibition against homosexuality derives from Leviticus and not Genesis.
Believers are not listening to their hierarchies. Not surprising given the amount of lying the preachers of the supernatural based religions have to do.
Regards
DL
Eve may have seen the forked tongue of the snake and thought of the underside of Adam's penis and not wanting to be obedient to him but to possess him through knowledge of the tree, she went and ate.
Were the first humans were truly vegetarians? Their evolutionary ancestors ate meat ("were dirt" as Genesis says) but were Adam and Eve were an evolved identical twin couple? I was thinking about males and females. I think they are inversions of each other with the male simply being more assertive (because of the fall?). Men have penises, women have vaginas, men have balls and women have boobs, females have a clitoris and men have a prostate.
The Bible account presents a difficulty for me though. Why would Adam tell Eve not to touch the tree? At least it seems he did since God told Adam simply not to eat from it but Eve told the snake she wasn't allowed even to touch it. It doesn't sound reasonable to say God gave a different unrecorded command to Eve. But why didn't Adam trust Eve? I don't see how he wouldn't have trusted her at first since God presented her to him. Did they have relations in the garden and after they opened up to each other he became fearful of her femininity?
But since creation was supposedly perfect then she would have been pregnant at the time of the Fall and Adam would have been less likely to let her eat from the forbidden tree ("Adam who was with her"), for the sake of the child.
So the story has a flaw in my opinion
Were the sexual positions allowed by God different before and after the fall?
"Wanting to know more
Always allowed to roam
Will the valley ever tear
For she felt just like home"
Yes it was, just not to your satisfaction. I did not know I had to stroke your ego for every little thing you get right.
I usually speak to what I disagree with and not what I agree with. That seems to be how people respond to me.
Regards
DL
It does not logically follow that a literal reading of the NT is required just because it is the only source of information about Jesus. I don't follow that line of reasoning at all.Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
That stat is unrelated to my poll which spoke to the percentage of believers who accepted a literal meaning to the bible. Your poll relates to entirely different subject matter.
Only the stupid and brain dead will believe in a literal hell.
The liars must have gotten to you early.
I sympathise and hope you recover.
Regards
DL
Not for gaining their education and no longer being blind to their nakedness.
Yopu do not likely walk about in the nude around others and should understand why A & E did not like to do so either.Quoting Gregory
No comment as there is nothing in the myth to indicate any sexual content till gen 4 on.
Quoting Gregory
Just close according to naturalists. Our closest relative is 95% vegetarian and 5% meat eater.
Man has to cook his meat or it is too hard for us to chew as we do not have the right teeth.
Quoting Gregory
Try testosterone and not sin as the cause of male aggression.
Quoting Gregory
No. The opposite is indicated. Their eyes were close to sexual notions till after they ate.
Quoting Gregory
That is because you are not reading it right or accurately. Just read it as is and it becomes more simple and clear.
For your consideration.
God is said to have punished A & E for disobedience. Did you note that A & E were told to reproduce way back in Gen 1, yet they were not punished for that first disobedience.
Quite the glitch. No?
Regards
DL
.
Not to your genocidal prick of a god please. He is more satanic than Satan if you could all the bodies and include all the innocent babies and children.
I hope your thinking matures and you put away the things of children. That being your brain killing supernatural beliefs.
If you are going to stupidly read your myth literally, then remember that by Jesus' standard, there are no real Christians as they could do all Jesus did and more.
You are either lazy like Satan, or lying to us about your beliefs.
Regards
DL
LOL, now that's a novel idea Frank! Perhaps he will get that reasoning; at least it seems consistent with same!!
I'm praying for your soul, you are condemned to hell brother! Is that what you want to hear?
Hahaha
My post spoke directly to literalism.
WTF do you think it refers to?
Regards
DL
Satan is going to get you, watch out!!!!!!!
Run and hide, quickly!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
I'm lazy like Satan.
You go ahead and pray to the satanic Yahweh.
That will show just hoe low you will go, morality wise.
Regards
DL
You are also quite the liar.
Regards
DL
All the biblical characters fear me. I am hard on imaginary constructs.
Regards
DL
You should not take advantage of a guy with no memory for faces and names.
Regards
DL
Knowledge can only occur if you can think ‘I think therefore I am’. If you know something happened then you think you know something happened. It’s because of our thinking that we are self conscious and we are fearful. If we don’t think at all then we are always happy and in a ‘heaven’. Think about it, if you don’t think you wouldn’t think to wear clothes as you wouldn’t think about people judging you or keeping warm. So once a person thinks they give rise to suffering and pain as our own thinking makes us suffer. I suppose the fruit of knowledge, although it sounds tasty, removes the eater from a heaven.
If you have ever watched a cartoon named sponge bob you can see this as sponge bob is mostly happy as a result of not thinking too much and another character named squidward is really depressed and angry as he thinks too much and is quite clever. ( this is all theoretical by the way, so if there are discrepancies let me know )
So when you have knowledge you lose your innocence. A part of you dies.
Correction* You wouldn't be happy, you would just be. Sounds quite boring eh.
I'm not sure why I would expect you to read all of below but an oversimplification of everything below is:
Jesus Christ is extremely smart and can predict everything. People's destinies are to some degree changeable at the next moment in the future but only if they are willing to feel bad about their judgement abilities at the next moment in the future. 1st Corinthians chapter 3. It is very hard to judge a persons character. There are 100s of variables and so on and so on. I feel you are the only person on this forum i'm authorized to "evangelize" because you always try to "evangelize" all of us to your form of christianity.
On that professor's notion of is Jesus Christ schizophrenic?
Its hard to feel completely comfortable with why Satan was created and why (despite predestination doesn't directly directly directly directly contradict free will) he allowed us to make bad decisions. The Bible says the God/Jesus Christ doesn't think the way man does. I speculate that prior to the creation of the angels and the mortal non living gods that God perhaps some measure felt for whatever reason to start creating entities beyond the Trinity. While I personally am not opposed to the idea of the Holy Trinity and I do not fall out side of the orthodoxy of Trinitarianism, I do believe focusing on the theology of Trinitarianism as though it was core Christian belief, changes our focus from Jesus Christ's personality to some lesser Biblical truth. I don't believe Trinitarian theology is paganism but I feel the Christian church should focus on the personality of Jesus Christ as laid out in the old testament and the new testament. And once again a careful reading of the major prophets of the old testament will reveal a God and also a Jesus Christ that truly showed compassion to the people of the old testament and also to the people of the new testament. Now many will say that Jesus Christ wasn't alone before he created the angels and the other entities however perhaps my frailties make me fail to see beyond the idea that if i'm inclined to play a video game or build a tower out of a deck of cards, that there is either a sharp or dull impulse to push me towards that endeavor. We people have a God given dna and also a nurturing of our development (the situations we are put into) that sharply influence are predispositions. God/Jesus Christ I would argue based on the name Jehovah ("I_AM" or "I_AM_WHAT_AM", the latter being a questionable interpretation as far as I know) does not inherently know his origins nor can give a complex answer that caused him to have the personality that he has. We don't have that "problem". So let me speculate that when Jesus Christ decided to start creating the angels, mortal non living gods and other entities I believe under my understanding of what i consider rational, the actions of Jesus Christ/God in the beginning are sometimes attributed to what would commonly be called true randomness (as opposed to computer generated randomness or even the seemingly random nature of our Universe). I'm not saying that the personality of God/Jesus Christ is random but that due to my frailties I don't know how to describe this concept in a more accurate way.
So at some point he created entities that do not include the Trinity (I suppose the Trinity existed outside of time and forwards and backwards through eternity). I also speculate God/Jesus Christ spent time in the beginning just sitting there trying to understand what was going on before he started creating entities. I also speculate the time period prior to this "age" or self awareness loops around and some how pushes Jesus Christ into a sort of looping God/being that exists outside of time and thus you could say the time before time should more accurately be defines that substance or deity always has existed outside of time. Most of what i am writing in this post is my own speculation (perhaps shared by many Christians).
When he created the entities such as angels or mortal and non living gods, did he create them as spiritual or "physical" creatures (angels are created so you could say they are creatures). To my current understanding of the Bible the angels and mortal non living gods are spiritual. The question i ask is to what degree do these creatures have the tendency to mimic their creator. To what degree (1 to 100%) is their conduct predictable. Humans are 100% predictable but are gods or angels 100% predictable. And once again is 1% or 100% predictable? Satan was actually number 2 to Jesus Christ right from the beginning. Many of the demons to my understanding were in fact angels at one time. For now on i will refer angels (perhaps good servant gods) as angels and bad angels and also demons as "bad gods". So we have the Trinity, the angels and then the bad gods.
At some point Satan betrayed Jesus Christ/God and so on and so on.
Why do I say in the classical sense that Jesus Christ/God is not schizophrenic but at the same time Christianity is not a dualist religion. The Bible says
that God does not think at all like the way people do, so let me say this: I speculate the need to create Satan as to some degree inferior to the Trinity was in compliance to the basic logic that if you were an ancient warlord or ancient king, your ruling was not based on a hereditary nature but your kingship was attained through merit. This is not something you can say for modern kings. I speculate God/Jesus Christ gave Satan to some degree an inferior nature to the Trinity because this is not unkind but it is simply logical and rational. I would argue this could be said of all entities and it even carries over into the creation of people but I speculate that the relationship between the former concept and intended human frailty is atleast mildly close but it might not even qualify as a linear relationship (and ofcourse not one to one considering a one to one relationship is a type of linear relationship).
I would like to speculate and here i have much misgivings about this speculation (keyword speculation) that Satan surprised to some degree God/Jesus Christ considering his nature was spiritual rather than matter. I do believe perhaps matter and energy can be built from spiritual substance but perhaps we could say matter and energy is an extremely complex dancing of spiritual forces that vibrates continuously and makes matter and energy have the qualities that we witness on a daily basis. Perhaps dealing with Satan is like my brother playing me (the opponent) in chess, my brother is much smarter than me and will probably will win the match but he must stress slightly over the issue. I would argue if Jesus Christ played any human in chess, the match would in all practicality be over before it started considering the realities of Scientific determinism. Jesus Christ, I speculate, stresses to some degree when dealing with non living gods but when dealing with people the results of what would happen came in before anything took place. My last speculation is that to some small degree Jesus Christ acts as a sociopath only in the sense that he does a criminal profile of all the entities he ever created. In that sense (and i stress this is a very remote and vague relationship) to some very small degree that God/Jesus Christ can be said to have minor similarities to someone who has schizophrenia.
I will go on to further to say in the end each Christian will never worship another Christian, but we the Porcelain chess pieces on his chess board will be all worshiped by the living God. Is it lawful for God to love and adore his wife (The Christian Church). I speculate that it is. We the christians were used as living sacrifices to manipulate the great spiritual powers (angels and non living gods) that were in Heaven.
On why God/Jesus Christ gave us inferior and imperfect dna as opposed to perfect dna like himself, I speculate there are various reasons for that: going beyond the fact that Jesus Christ achieved his status as an ancient king or warlord achieves his status being not through heredity but through merit, I believe among many other reasons, Jesus Christ wanted to show love to an animal similar to him and to love an animal not because of what that animal can do for him but for what that he (Jesus Christ) can do for that animal. There is only one marriage or sexual relationship in heaven and for all eternity and that the marriage between Jesus Christ and the Christian Church. Once again just about all of this falls outside the pale of orthodoxy and is mostly speculation.
I'm an independent fundamental baptist and the KJV, New Arabic Version, the ESV and the Hebrew all point to an old earth. Genesis chapter 2 (check out the New Arabic Version first). A Catholic Bishop from the instruction from the Roman Papacy came up with the 6000 year number. Proverbs chapter 1.
Sin was born with the egg. Only we didn't have bodies to make it or hearts to know it. Sin is a single cell.
Sorry about that. But you're still going to hell.
When a law is well written, mercy is built into it or not required.
Mercy is arbitrary and a rapist, for instance, should not get mercy just for voting for the judge.
If a victim, we would likely tell the judge where to shove his mercy.
Regards
DL
I need proof of hell, and see none, and know that it is illogical and god destroying if a god would have to create such a place, --- for purposeless torture and death.
Regards
DL
I agree.
Sin is natural and we would not exist if sin was not here and now.
Regards
DL
Buddy.
You started with this flat out lie and you want to chat!!!
Stop lying and I am here for you.
No I did not bother reading your other lies. I am careful with mine and if you cannot be ------
Regards
DL
Yes, but a better you is born. One could say reborn.
I have experience a paradigm shift due to new knowledge. It is quite a process.
I think it advisable that we should perpetually seek new knowledge and gods and thus not end in the idol worship of what we think is the final answer.
Regards
DL
Volcanoes.
Life is full of lies, get over it! Hahaha
Seriously, you say you've studied the bible: see Ecclesiastes!
Otherwise, you better hide, Satan's coming to get you!!!!!
Just a little tough-love brother. Like Frank said, you're too easy :joke:
I try to reduce that harm, while the Christians do not even see the harm, given that their moral sense has been corrupted.
You keep smiling and laughing at all those victims. That's a good mental midget.
Regards
DL
Christianity is misogynous and homophobic. How should you resolve that problem?
Better hurry and answer that, Satan's coming!!!!
All I can do is try to have people recognize that they have no just cause for their discrimination against women and gays.
Regards
DL
Good! But are you now suggesting one should throw the baby out with the bathwater ?
Is a genocidal son murdering baby worth saving?
Regards
DL
Not sure I'm following that one. Are you suggesting there is no forgiveness in life?
The baby you referred to was Yahweh. No?
Or did you mean his homophobic and misogynous genocidal god loving religion?
Regards
DL
No argument from me on this.
It bears repeating to all Christians and I do whenever I can.
Regards
DL
No, the baby who suffers from interminable angst.
No wait, you stand corrected, maybe we should throw the angry baby out!! That might end your suffering!!
LOL
Lets say Jesus Christ didn't exist but i believed he did, that wouldn't be a lie that would be me being deluded. You don't appear to be very open minded. Read what other people say or don't but i'm not going to pretend your something worthy of being called a bishop. Maybe you should change your name. Next thing is you accuse me of not being a christian. The thing is neither of us know anything about each other. The you say, you know my actions by my words. The problem with that is many people who think they are open minded are in fact just snobs who really just are irrational. So lets talk philosophy and religion and leave out all the bullshit. Read it or don't read it, other than that i don't give a shit.
Go away and take your lies with you.
Regards
DL
We should be friends. Both of us do that shit all the time on this forum. Perhaps we should both be kicked off. You sir are one deluded fuck.
Why not say sin was born with the sperm. It sounds like you are trying to make it out like sin is something of patriarchy. Are you aware that suicide is much much higher among males? Much of society gets their perception of reality from the pretty men and women from hollywood. Jesus Christ was a physically ugly man (Isaiah chapter 53)
The thing is you could ask me to apologize, however an apology on an online forum means almost nothing. Perhaps we could both be more understanding of other people's view points. How do you treat a restaurant worker when they don't make your food right?
Christians, with their homophobic and misogynous teachings, would berate a gay or woman but not a straight male.
Thanks for the opportunity to show your garbage religion at work.
Gnostic Christians are universalists and would just ask for a redo regardless of sexual orientation or gender.
Regards
DL
Yet the bible is clear that Adam's loins were not involved as he did not even know he was naked before eating of the tree of knowledge.
Sin must first be triggered by the mind and saying that loins can sin is a false premise. Loins cannot plan to do good nor evil. They do not think.
Quoting Gregory
Original Christianity interpreted the Jews, who had interpreted the myths from Sumer and Egypt.
If Protestants have no authority then neither do Islam Christianity as a whole not Judaism.
I think that we should all feel this way and then perhaps the religious will stop starting wars.
Quoting Gregory
By pedigree, are you saying that their interpretation and distorting of the Jewish myth is better, --- or are you referring to their inquisitions and witch burnings as well as their lower levels of inquisitions and jihads against women's and gay's equality today?
Regards
DL
Just that they base their belief on a number of old documents by Jesus and say "we are the only Church which claims to teach with infallible authority of Jesus." If someone wants to remain a Protestant because they are sure the Spirit is with them, Catholics have no argument against that
??
There are no documents signed by Jesus that I know of.
He was illiterate and followed the Oral Torah. He may have been a Pharisee because they also put man above god, just as Jesus did, in the words that the scribes put into his mouth.
That is why people were excited when the Nag Hammadi find showed what some things that were the original sayings of Jesus.
Regards
DL
That may be true, but we do know that some of their teachings were plagiarized and or forged.
Even the name Christian was likely plagiarized from the Chrestians since there are documents known to be altered from Chrestian to Christian.
Regards
DL
William Craig says the resurrection is history, but what of Fatima and thousands of other such? He reasonably should become Catholic so long as he says atheists need to accept the resurrection as history
ok.
He is a liar just as all preachers of supernatural gods are. They have to be given that they have no access to a supernatural realm.
Intelligent people know this and will recognize the lies.
Regards
DL
You would not be able to know, so, like all religious or spiritual thoughts, we would have to gage them by their moral content.
If Christians did that, they would reject their genocidal god and stop thinking of that prick as good.
Believers tend not to care if they follow satanic ideas or if they are moral or not when the idea is from their god.
Take the Jesus died for me lie. A self serving view that they reverse by saying Jesus is serving them, while they ignore that Jesus would have to break the laws he said he came to fulfill.
That is stupidly analogous to a master dying for his slave. Stupid is as stupid thinks.
Regards
DL