You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

An hypothesis is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false.

Banno January 24, 2020 at 01:21 9225 views 126 comments
An hypothesis is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false.


This is the opening sentence on the Wiki Article Falsifiability.

Is it right? How else would you summarise falsifiability in ten words or less?

Asking for a friend.

Comments (126)

Marchesk January 24, 2020 at 01:26 #374831
Reply to Banno "Some" observation "might" show it to be false? Sounds a bit weak.

What if it's one study that shows a hypothesis could be wrong? Does that make it falsified, or does the study need to be replicated first, and any correlations vs causations worked out?
Streetlight January 24, 2020 at 01:35 #374833
It's not right because the indefinite article should be 'a' not 'an', given that 'hypothesis' does not begin with a vowel.

But, uh, otherwise, seems right.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 01:37 #374834
Reply to StreetlightX ah, fair point.
Pfhorrest January 24, 2020 at 02:29 #374849
Besides the indefinite article, it sounds straightforwardly correct to me, but if people are being so dense as to not understand it, maybe couch it in a conditional: "if it is false, there is some observation that can show it to be false".
Metaphysician Undercover January 24, 2020 at 03:00 #374872
Quoting Pfhorrest
Besides the indefinite article, it sounds straightforwardly correct to me, but if people are being so dense as to not understand it, maybe couch it in a conditional: "if it is false, there is some observation that can show it to be false".


This is not a proper rendition. Because of the subjective nature of "observation", there are limitations to what can be observed. There are things which are beyond the capacity of human beings to observe. We might still say that there is truth or falsity relating to these things, despite the fact that they cannot be observed.

The op speaks of the "falsifiability" of a hypothesis, not whether the hypothesis is true or false. And, like "observation", "falsifiable" refers to a human capacity. So it avoids the issue of hypotheses which might be true or false which cannot be observed as such, by speaking not of whether the theory is false, but whether the theory is falsifiable, and this is limited to the capacities of human beings to falsify.
Pfhorrest January 24, 2020 at 04:30 #374908
I think you misunderstood. I'm saying to add the "if it is false" to the definition in the OP: "An hypothesis is falsifiable if, if it is false, some observation might show it to be false". Because people seem to be objecting to the definition in the OP on the grounds that "some observation might show it to be false" is only true of hypotheses that are actually false, and so rules out hypotheses that are true from being falsifiable.

All of that sounds like just someone has reading comprehension problems, to me, so I think maybe explicitly adding the "if it is false" part could clear things up for them.
Noble Dust January 24, 2020 at 04:59 #374912
Reply to Banno

Are hypotheses falsifiable in the first place?
creativesoul January 24, 2020 at 05:33 #374928
Observation...

or...

...contradicts with, or stands in direct opposition to some other bit of knowledge(statement) that has been previously verified?

:brow:
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 06:22 #374933
Reply to Marchesk It's not saying that a single observation would prove it false, it is saying that it has the quality of being able to be countered by observations. One can observe things that act as counter-evidence.
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 06:26 #374934
Reply to StreetlightX That's complicated...

H’ represents a consonant sound, so we would expect ‘a hypothesis’, and that is what many say and write. However, where the stress in a word beginning with a sounded /h/ is on the second or subsequent syllable, some native speakers precede the word with ‘an’ rather than ‘a’, so you will also see and hear ‘an hypothesis’. But if you say and write ‘a hypothesis’, you will not be wrong.

alcontali January 24, 2020 at 06:28 #374935
Quoting Banno
How else would you summarise falsifiability in ten words or less?


It works until it doesn't anymore. ;-)
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 06:29 #374936
An hypothesis is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false.
An hypothesis is falsifiable if counterevidence relevent to such an hypothesis could be observed.

14 words, sigh.


Noble Dust January 24, 2020 at 06:30 #374938
Reply to Coben

I grew up with a friend who's mother would pronounce "white" as "h-wite". Suffice it to say that I'm a strong believer in the use of "a" preceding a word beginning with a silent "h".
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 06:38 #374941
Reply to Noble Dust Not to pull the thread to far off track, the 'h' isn't silent, like it is in 'honor', but unstressed. I definitely use an before words with silent a silent h, but I even use it here where I do pronounce the h, but much. A hy po...it feels like I am stuttering. An hypothesis flows for me. Not saying a before it is wrong, however.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 06:40 #374942
Reply to Marchesk so....

Think of this as what appears if you were reading an article and came across "...falsifiability..." in an article, and you selected it and clicked on "Look up"... a short text to remind some folk and inform others, with more information available as needed...

Indeed, that is what happens if your browser is accessing Wikipedia.

So if you want more detail, and the answer to your questions, you read the rest of the article.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 06:41 #374943
Reply to Coben so "An 'ypothesis" it is!
Noble Dust January 24, 2020 at 06:43 #374944
Reply to Coben

Fair enough.
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 06:48 #374946
Reply to Banno
Oh, I say that 'h', I breathe it, man.
Quoting Banno
How else would you summarise falsifiability in ten words or less?

If it's wrong, I might notice.

6 words

Streetlight January 24, 2020 at 06:59 #374947
Reply to Coben Ah. Silly ache.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 10:52 #375003
I did some research and - of course - "a" is a now accepted American mispronunciation.

"an" it is.
Virgo Avalytikh January 24, 2020 at 10:57 #375005
The way I learned it, when I was leaning English, is that 'an' is correct, in British English, before a word beginning with 'h', if the accent lies on any syllable other than the first.
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 11:59 #375010
Quoting Banno
How else would you summarise falsifiability in ten words or less?

Perhaps a better approach for concision is via the negative. If a non-falsifiable hypothesis is false, no one will ever know.

It is 11 words, but I think the word 'might' opens all sorts of doors.
TheMadFool January 24, 2020 at 13:02 #375014
How about looking at this from the viewpoint of necessary and contingent truths?

If a theory/proposition is necessarily true then it is necessarily unfalsifiable. On the other hand a theory/proposition that is contingently true, it is necessarily falsifiable.

Since we're after necessary truths we need to identify contingent truths and the only method available is to falsify theories/propositions under consideration because that's the only available method to discriminate the two.

A contingent truth would be one that is true by virtue of the pecularities of the circumstances that surround it e.g. moving objects eventually come to rest (on earth). However, the necessary truth is that moving objects will continue to move without an opposing force. The method to identify which is which is to falsify one of them, as was done by scientists.

Is there another way to tell apart necessary truths and contingent truths? Since both can be confirmed, there's only one avenue open to us viz. falsify.
creativesoul January 24, 2020 at 16:52 #375055
An hypothesis is falsifiable when contradicting observations or verified statements.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 18:09 #375067
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh Interesting. Are there examples where it doesn't?
Banno January 24, 2020 at 18:11 #375068
Reply to creativesoul That does not look to me to be even a sentence.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 18:12 #375070
Reply to TheMadFool Ten words or less?
fdrake January 24, 2020 at 18:15 #375072
Falsifiable hypotheses are refutable by experiments.
Zelebg January 24, 2020 at 18:26 #375077
Reply to Banno
How else would you summarise falsifiability in ten words or less?


Hypothesis is falsifiable if predicts observation that will either prove it true or false.

There has to be explicit prediction, if not even suggestion of viable experimental setup. I assumed possibility of 'proving false' is the same as 'proving true', so I guess I'm saying falsifiability is the same thing as testability.
Virgo Avalytikh January 24, 2020 at 18:58 #375104
Reply to Banno

Presumably, it would mean that you don't use 'an' with one-syllable words, like 'house'.
god must be atheist January 24, 2020 at 19:40 #375122
Quoting Virgo Avalytikh
The way I learned it, when I was leaning English, is that 'an' is correct, in British English, before a word beginning with 'h', if the accent lies on any syllable other than the first.


A gentleman in London, England, walks to work a boisterous day. He encounters a young woman. A sudden whiff of air lifts her skirt. The gentleman, such as he is, attempts to diffuse the potential of the otherwise embarrassing situation. He says, "A bit airy, isn't it?" The young woman answers, "Well, what did you expect, feathers?"

Needless to say, the two spake British English.
god must be atheist January 24, 2020 at 19:50 #375124
Here in Canada, I play cards with many different groups of players. One includes a British immigrant from Dorchester. It's now a constant gentle joke, jostling-like, that when someone declares Hearts to be the trump suit, we no longer pronounce the H which is otherwise customary around here, and we no longer pronounce the R either, much like the immigrant from Dorchester, who is, incidentally, a likeable, very gorgeous woman. (Married. Happily. Not to me.)

So when we declare HHHearrrrts to be the trump suit, we say now, in that group, something that "oughts" would sound if pronounced phonetically. (??)

The immigrant does not take this as an insult, as it is not meant to be one at all.
Virgo Avalytikh January 24, 2020 at 19:56 #375127
fdrake January 24, 2020 at 20:06 #375136
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh

Think it's hairy->airy which sounds like aerie which is a place where birds are kept. Presumably a joke about how British people are terrible at speaking English, or that standards for proper English aren't actually adhered to by some (many) British native speakers.

Where I grew up in Scotland, we'd mostly use one tense of the verb "to go", we'd say "gan". Gan could mean "I am going", "I went" or "I will go". Also "meet with", "date" and "have sex with". We have thoroughly ridiculous accents.

god must be atheist January 24, 2020 at 20:09 #375138
Reply to fdrake ta, Fdrake.

The man said "it's airy", meaning, a bit windy.

The woman, who probably was of lower classes, had been wont of pronouncing "hairy" as "airy".

So the rest you have to fill in with your power of directed imagination, I'm afraid, as it is not fit for printed words in a PG13 website.
Deleted User January 24, 2020 at 21:14 #375159
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Banno January 24, 2020 at 23:59 #375206
Reply to Coben I agree.

In the end, so far as there is one on Wikipedia, hypothesis was changed to claim - which will end that part of the debate, at th expense of erudition.
Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:03 #375208
Reply to alcontali :cool:

It works, but I don't think it would last the test of time.

Best propper answer so far, though.
Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:04 #375209
Quoting Noble Dust
I grew up with a friend who's mother would pronounce "white" as "h-wite".


Which is to say, she was Catholic...
Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:09 #375212
Reply to fdrake Might work with a follow on about non-falisfiable...

SO

U(x)f(x) - all swans are white - falsifiable

?(x)f(x) - this is a white swan - verifiable


Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:09 #375213
Quoting Zelebg
Hypothesis is falsifiable if predicts observation that will either prove it true or false.


But the bold bit is wrong.
Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:16 #375216
Reply to tim wood Of course it is incomplete. See the context.

Your alternative?
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 00:20 #375218
Reply to Banno
But the bold bit is wrong.


According to what?
Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:20 #375219
Reply to Zelebg ...reality.
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 00:38 #375228
Reply to Banno
I only now see you are not talking about my bold, but yours. In any case, can you articulate some explanation for your assertion?

You test a hypothesis, and you either measure what is predicted or not, therefore you either prove it true or you prove it is false.


Banno January 25, 2020 at 00:48 #375232
Reply to Zelebg You can't prove it to be true. But your assertion means you have not read Popper. Hence, you can be of little help here.

Don't be offended. You are not alone.

Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 01:26 #375242
Reply to Banno
You can't prove it to be true.


You're right. I did not realize what I was saying. Then this:

A hypothesis is falsifiable if it predicts observation that can prove it false. Without explicit and viable experimental proposal I’d say it is at most ‘potentially falsifiable’.
Janus January 25, 2020 at 02:20 #375249
Banno January 25, 2020 at 02:27 #375250
Reply to Zelebg Cool. I'm thinking Falsifiable is potentially false.
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 02:50 #375257
Reply to Banno
I'm thinking Falsifiable is potentially false.


I would limit it to what is testable right now, otherwise you could argue something like many worlds QM hypothesis is potentially testable in the future. That is why I insist falsifiable hypothesis should come together with actual experimental setup proposal using available technology.
Deleted User January 25, 2020 at 03:12 #375266
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 03:35 #375273
Quoting Banno
That does not look to me to be even a sentence.


You're right.

:razz:

Falsifiable hypotheses are about observable entities.

Banno January 25, 2020 at 03:45 #375277
Reply to tim wood But that doesn't say what falsifiability is.
Banno January 25, 2020 at 03:45 #375278
Reply to creativesoul Yeah - but what about them...
Moliere January 25, 2020 at 03:57 #375280
Reply to Banno I can't think of another way to say it that's any different from the wiki.

Banno January 25, 2020 at 04:13 #375283
Reply to Moliere Yeah, me neither. Hence this thread.
Streetlight January 25, 2020 at 05:57 #375317
The two things that stand out to me I guess are that:

(1) Any way to formulate falsifiability will need to include some kind of modal word - can, should, might, ought, must, etc. This referring to the '-ability' part of falsifi-abiliy. There must be a capacity of some kind involved.

(2) I would include a reference to falsifiability being a matter of principle (de jure) and not fact (de facto); As in, that which is falsifiable is so in principle regardless of whether one does in fact have some evidence that would make it false.

---

I still don't like "an" hypothesis because I breathe out the "h" and it sounds awful! Team "a" ftw.
alcontali January 25, 2020 at 06:16 #375328
Quoting Banno
U(x)f(x) - all swans are white - falsifiable
?(x)f(x) - this is a white swan - verifiable


U(x)f(x) : [math](\forall x \in D)f(x)[/math] or even U(x,D)f(x)
?(x)f(x) : [math](\exists x \in D)f(x)[/math] or even ?(x,D)f(x)

Explicitly mentioning domain D is important, because it must be effectively enumerable, i.e. in one way or another, be traversable. Therefore, the set must be in one way or another, indexed, i.e. well-ordered.

Since the entire set of swans is in practical terms not enumerable, the use of universal quantifiers is not supported for swans.

It is safe to use universal quantifiers only with some carefully chosen Platonic collections of abstract objects, even of infinite size. In the physical universe, it may occasionally work for finite, relatively small-size collections, but in the general case, it actually doesn't.
Pfhorrest January 25, 2020 at 06:29 #375333
Reply to Banno Maybe the problem isn't with the phrasing but with other wikipedians' reading comprehension.

If I have the time and inclination I might comment on the talk page myself.

In the mean time, here's a uselessly tautological definition:
Falsifiability is the ability to be shown to be false.
Banno January 25, 2020 at 07:42 #375351
Quoting Pfhorrest
Falsifiability is the ability to be shown to be false.


:up: That's true.

I might try drawing attention to the page on the philosophy project... I'm the only one editing the article at present, so the objections amount to nothing.

Banno January 25, 2020 at 07:45 #375352
Reply to alcontali ...except that this is an intro; keep it simple.

But that discussion of the logic of falsification has been removed from the article is one of the things I plan to correct.

You might have a look.
Virgo Avalytikh January 25, 2020 at 09:01 #375360
Quoting Janus
An hyphen?


No.
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 09:44 #375366
Reply to Banno
You might have a look.

[edit: quote corrected]

Is any of the theories of consciousness falsifiable? And shouldn't article provide sufficiently precise definition so we can make that distinction?
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 10:20 #375369
A claim that renders counter-examples verifiable.
Virgo Avalytikh January 25, 2020 at 10:24 #375371
Reply to Zelebg

I don't understand the question.
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 11:29 #375383
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh
Mistake, I was quoting Banno.
Zelebg January 25, 2020 at 18:42 #375453
Reply to bongo fury
A claim that renders counter-examples verifiable.


I love conciseness and find your expression artfull. However, words “renders” and “verifiable” are very complex and thus too vague and ambiguous to be used in this definition. It’s kind of like talking about points and lines in terms of cubes and dodecahedrons.

The primary purpose of any definition is to draw strict boundaries around the concept being defined, so it can be differentiated from all the other concepts. And the question is - what are the essential properties or boundaries that definition of ‘falsifiability’ must address?

a.) hypothesis implies or explicitly states at least one empirical prediction
b.) this empirical prediction must satisfy:
1. if test measurement differs from the prediction, hypothesis is deemed false
2. proposed empirical prediction must be realizable with current technology

Maybe I’m forgetting something, but surely without that last clause b.2.), definition of falsifiability will be useless and pointless since any hypothesis can potentially argue one day it will be testable.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:08 #375469
Reply to Banno

True statements cannot be falsified.
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 19:16 #375479
Reply to creativesoul

Nobody claimed otherwise.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:18 #375481
Reply to bongo fury

Right. Just seems rather relevant.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:21 #375484
If true statements cannot be falsified, then falsifiability fails as a standard for truth, and/or warrant.
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 19:22 #375485
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:24 #375487
Verifiability takes precedence, particularly regarding foundational premisses.
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 19:36 #375496
Reply to creativesoul

You lost me.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:40 #375498
Some true statements are verifiable, but no true statement is falsifiable.
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 19:55 #375502
Quoting creativesoul
no true statement is falsifiable.


I don't see why not, if it is the kind of statement that would make its counter-examples, if it had any, verifiable.

creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:57 #375503
True statements are unable to be shown as false for they never are.

Better?
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 19:58 #375504
Reply to bongo fury

Do you have an example that demonstrates your proposed scenario/situation?
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 20:34 #375537
Quoting creativesoul
True statements are unable to be shown as false for they never are.

Better?


How could it be when it ignores my formula and the clarification?

Quoting creativesoul
Do you have an example that demonstrates your proposed scenario/situation?


I dunno... any universal claim that currently looks like it could be true.

F = (within some tolerance) ma?

Any pair of particles produced by sub-atomic decay are entangled?

They are the kind of statement so conducive to experimental testing as to convince us that some of their counter-examples, if they had any at all, would be observable.
Janus January 25, 2020 at 21:05 #375546
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh If 'an hypothesis' why not 'an hyphen'?

creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 21:50 #375564
Reply to bongo fury

So... I'm a bit confused. Where is the true statement that is able to be shown as false?
Virgo Avalytikh January 25, 2020 at 22:07 #375572
Reply to Janus

Because in 'hypothesis' the accent is on the second syllable, but in 'hyphen' the accent is on the first. At least the way I pronounce them.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 22:13 #375574
Quoting bongo fury
Any pair of particles produced by sub-atomic decay are entangled?


Is this meant to represent an example of a true statement that is falsifiable?

:brow:
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 22:17 #375575
Either all pairs of particles produced by sub-atomic decay are entangled or they are not. If they are not then the statement is false. It would take observation of particles produced by sub atomic decay that did not subsequently 'exhibit' identical properties to falsify the statement, but that situation cannot even occur if the statement is true.
bongo fury January 25, 2020 at 23:00 #375588
Quoting creativesoul
It would take observation of particles produced by sub atomic decay that did not subsequently 'exhibit' identical properties to falsify the statement


Yes, but not to qualify it as falsifiable. It takes heat to melt a piece of butter, but not to qualify it as "melts at less than 100°C", even though I ate it cold.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 23:07 #375590
Quoting bongo fury
It would take observation of particles produced by sub atomic decay that did not subsequently 'exhibit' identical properties to falsify the statement
— creativesoul

Yes, but not to qualify it as falsifiable


To be falsifiable is to be able to be shown as false.

Agree?
Deleted User January 25, 2020 at 23:12 #375592
Reply to creativesoul Quoting creativesoul
Either all pairs of particles produced by sub-atomic decay are entangled or they are not. If they are not then the statement is false. It would take observation of particles produced by sub atomic decay that did not subsequently 'exhibit' identical properties to falsify the statement, but that situation cannot even occur if the statement is true.

My interpretation of what you are saying is that since true hypotheses cannot be falsified, since the evidence will end up supporting them, then they don't pass Popper's criterion. But this is confusing some kind of final knowledge with what we experience.

We put forward an hypothesis. We don't know if it is true or false from our limited perspective. But we can judge, at least to some degree,whether

if

it were false, it would be falsifiable.

True ones will not end up getting falsified. But the criterion still makes sense since we are in a limited knowledge in situ, in time perspective.

If someone says there is a universe beside ours that cannot in any way be observed or experienced and no effects from it arise in our universe and we can never go there.

It might be true. It might be false. But it doesn't pass falsifialibity. We can say that. It's truth, should it happen to be true, does not stop us from saying that it isn't possibly falsifiable.

The can in can be falsified.

Is not the same kind of 'can' involved in whether true things can be disproved. It's a category confusion.



creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 23:20 #375594
Quoting Coben
My interpretation of what you are saying is that since true hypotheses cannot be falsified, since the evidence will end up supporting them, then they don't pass Popper's criterion


I am saying that true statements cannot be shown to be false. If a statement cannot be shown as false, then it is unfalsifiable. I'm not making any assessments regarding Popper's criterion... at least not intentionally. If what I say pertains to Popper's criterion, then it is purely coincidental.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 23:21 #375595
In order for a claim to be falsifiable it must already be false... or it's a prediction... which is neither true or false at the time it's first spoken/uttered.
creativesoul January 25, 2020 at 23:28 #375598
"Butter melts at less than one hundred degrees" is true, despite it not melting at all temperatures below one hundred degrees.
Janus January 26, 2020 at 00:28 #375606
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh Ok, so if I pronounce it with similar emphases to 'hypodermic', that is "hypo-thesis", then I should use 'a' instead of 'an'?

I guess it makes sense then.

So...an heuristic?
bongo fury January 26, 2020 at 01:52 #375621
Quoting creativesoul
To be falsifiable is to be able to be shown as false.

Agree?


Well yeah, vaguely, but that's exactly where the thread started. My formula (with modal inflection if required, but it's implied, so 6 words, and I think I win) is just a straight guess at a gloss that would (to me) explain and justify the widespread acceptance of the notion.

Quoting creativesoul
"Butter melts at less than one hundred degrees"


But the question is whether there is any problem with saying that a particular piece of butter (a particular statement) satisfies "melts at some temperature less than 100°C" (satisfies "renders counter-examples verifiable") even though it never got the chance to melt (to render a counter-example verifiable), because I ate it cold (because it had no counter-examples).
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 03:28 #375643
Reply to creativesoul
No true statement is falsifiable.

True statements cannot be falsified.


Those are two different claims. First one is wrong.


To be falsifiable is to be able to be shown as false.


Possible, not able. Almost synonyms, which is why jump to error is not obvious...


If a statement cannot be shown as false, then it is unfalsifiable.


A claim is falsifiable if some observation might show it to be false, says Wikipedia. So, proving a statement to be true does not invalidate the status of that statement as being falsifiable.

Additionally, instead of ‘claim’ or ‘statement’, better fit is ‘prediction’, which is a special kind of statement, a claim that invites verification. The word ‘prediction’ is meant to be used in exactly this context of testability, verifiability and falsifiability, it carries additional useful information. Therefore, to sum it up:

Falsifiability is testability.

A prediction is falsifiable if it is testable.
Banno January 26, 2020 at 03:51 #375646
Reply to Virgo Avalytikh That works for me, although doubtless it is a post-hoc rule.

Nice.
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 04:17 #375649
Reply to Zelebg

If we lose "statements" and stick with predictions, things change rather remarkably. There are no true predictions(when uttered). We may agree on more than not regarding predictions.
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 04:20 #375650
Quoting bongo fury
To be falsifiable is to be able to be shown as false.

Agree?
— creativesoul

Well yeah, vaguely, but that's exactly where the thread started.


I find no issue with that, so it's something to keep in mind. If we arrive at something which contradicts it, we aught pause and reconsider.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 05:12 #375655
Reply to creativesoul
If we lose "statements" and stick with predictions, things change rather remarkably.


Also confirmed/falsified instead of proved true/false brings more sense into sentences like this: first experiment confirmed prediction, but hypothesis remained falsifiable and it was tested again, however negative result falsified prediction this time, so at the end conclusion is inconclusive and the hypothesis remains falsifiable, forever, regardless of how many times it will be confirmed or falsified in the future.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 07:39 #375672
Reply to creativesoul
If we arrive at something which contradicts it, we aught pause and reconsider.


There is a lot to reconsider. We have definitions of two concepts for verification, testability and falsifiability, both useless, less and more.

Wikipedia says testability is falsifiability with added concern that “there is some real hope of deciding whether it is true or false”, one day. Could it be any more vague? Of course, just take that whole part out and we get falsifiability, completely open to interpretation, or worse, without any interpretation.

Testability implies falsifiability, making it redundant, but scientific theories are defined by both testability and falsifiability, so there must be some real difference between the two or something doesn’t add up.

Wikipedia on testability has a bit of information that is completely missing from the falsifiability article itself -- falsifiability means counterexamples to the hypothesis are logically possible -- whatever is that supposed to mean and however it is supposed to apply in practice, or not.

Obviously now, definition of falsifiability needs to be far more specific, and if testability has additional concern of practical viability for experimental verification, then falsifiability must deal with the additional concept of ‘counterexample’ and narrow it down, or it remains pointless. Let me illustrate...

a.) I hypothesise life after death and predict all kinds of phenomena like near-death experience, ghosts, communication with the dead. Are those falsifiable predictions? Are they testable?

b.) I hypothesise many worlds, infinite number of universes and predict we will be able to see some kind of overlap when we discover super-strings or build a telescope three times the size of the Moon. Are those predictions falsifiable? Are they testable?

c.) I hypothesise consciousness is ‘integrated information’, it’s just how integrated information feels inside, and I can accurately predict levels of consciousness in awake, sleeping, anesthetized and comatose people. I also accurately predict already known observation that cerebellum is not relevant for consciousness. My hypothesis has been independently confirmed many times with strong evidence, it’s a theory, but are my predictions falsifiable?

d.) I hypothesise photons are made of unicorn tears, and I explain everything with a story that makes sense as much as quantum mechanics, but my equations are the same as QM, so I make all the same predictions and my theory is already validated as much, but can my predictions really be considered falsifiable? And even if they can, does that necessarily mean my hypothesis is falsifiable?
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 08:02 #375674
No ordinary statements or claims here. Testability deals with predictions, and falsifiability with counterexamples.
Deleted User January 26, 2020 at 08:04 #375676
Quoting creativesoul
In order for a claim to be falsifiable it must already be false... or it's a prediction... which is neither true or false at the time it's first spoken/uttered.
Right but we don't know if it is true or false. When we say something could be falsified. We mean, if if it were false. What it refers to has qualities that allow for counter-evidence. It's a different type of 'can' or 'could'. And it is subjunctive. There is a subjunctive implicit in the sentence. If it were the case that is is false (and right now we do not know if it is) we will be able to falsify it. Some things that are false need nto have this aspect. I get your point, and perhaps it should be made more explicit in a description of falsifiability, but I think it also rests on an equivocation.

Deleted User January 26, 2020 at 08:05 #375677
Reply to creativesoul I'd say that is a misleading statement and a confusing one. I would not call it simply true, nor would I say it is simply false. Truth and falsehood are not binary.
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 08:06 #375678
Reply to Zelebg

I'm refraining from objecting.

Predictions are ordinary statements about what will happen.

creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 08:07 #375680
Reply to Coben

Pardon me. Multiple conversations with multiple participants. Are you referring to the claim about butter?
Deleted User January 26, 2020 at 08:16 #375681
Reply to creativesoul Yes. If you click on your name in red with the arrow in my post (and this is a general rule) it will jump you to the post I (or anyone) is referring to. So you can always check that way what the heck people are referring to, even if they don't quote.
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 08:25 #375684
Reply to Coben

What would it take for it to be true?

Butter would need to melt at any temperature below one hundred.

So...

It's true.

No?

:brow:
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 08:28 #375685
What would it take for it to be false?

Butter would not melt at any temperature below one hundred.

Butter does.

So...

It's not false.
bongo fury January 26, 2020 at 10:34 #375697
Quoting creativesoul
I find no issue with that, so it's something to keep in mind. If we arrive at something which contradicts it, we aught pause and reconsider.


Missing the point of the thread, which I take to be: what clarification of that vague and ambiguous assertion (the one you are pleased that I find vaguely agreeable) would convey the scope and central tendency of the un-packings that Popper and his followers would likely give it, so that the wiki article might (with this clarification) better help the reader avoid common mis-readings and (from the falsificationist point of view) spurious objections, such as yours.

I might worry that my formula had failed its task in your case, if you didn't already admit to being uninterested in likely falsificationist unpackings of the assertion.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 16:29 #375741
Reply to Banno
In case you missed, I mentioned a piece of information missing from the article.

[i]The Solution of Falsifiability
In Popper's later work... statement being falsifiable "if and only if it logically contradicts some (empirical) sentence that describes a logically possible event that it would be logically possible to observe." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_problem[/i]

Thus, this should work better:

A prediction is falsifiable if it logically implies counterexample.
A prediction is testable if it is falsifiable and empirically feasible.


It doesn’t make sense a prediction could be falsifiable but not testable, so some things need to switch places, but nevertheless let us test these definitions and see if can falsify, or confirm temporarily, the definition of falsifiability itself...
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 16:31 #375743
a.) I hypothesise life after death and predict all kinds of phenomena like near-death experience, ghosts, communication with the dead. Are those falsifiable predictions? Are they testable?

These contradict scientific consensus, so it is not obvious what the predictions are in terms of empirical observations. Without explicit experimental proposal we only have empty assertions, we do not know what the prediction actually is and thus no way of knowing what possible counterexamples it may imply.

So the first step for a hypothesis to become a scientific theory is to describe exactly where, what, how and when at least one prediction is to be observed.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 16:33 #375744
b.) I hypothesise many worlds, infinite number of universes and predict we will be able to see some kind of overlap when we discover super-strings or build a telescope three times the size of the Moon. Are those predictions falsifiable? Are they testable?

Telescope prediction is falsifiable, we either observe that overlap or we don’t. But I would not classify it as testable nor scientific. What’s the hurry? If we ever manage to build such a huge telescope, then your hypothesis will become testable and falsifiable, just wait.

Superstrings prediction, being out of realm for observations with current technology, must also be extra precise in defining experimental setup, otherwise it can not be classified as testable or falsifiable.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 17:14 #375768
c.) I hypothesise consciousness is ‘integrated information’, it’s just how integrated information feels inside, and I can accurately predict levels of consciousness in awake, sleeping, anesthetized and comatose people. I also accurately predict already known observation that cerebellum is not relevant for consciousness. My hypothesis has been independently confirmed many times with strong evidence, it’s a theory, but are my predictions falsifiable?

Predicting already known cerebellum observation sounds suspicious, for some reason. In any case, I do not see how this can be falsifiable, it would be a biological paradox.

But predictions of the levels of consciousness are independently confirmed as quite accurate and currently it is the basis of the only method for such analysis in coma patients. Predictions fail, say 10% of the time, and this is considered confirmation, so to what percentage prediction failure has to rise in order to be deemed as falsification?

And here we also have infamous ‘explanatory gap’ and mind-body problem. I’m afraid any hypothesis trying to explain what _is consciousness, as opposed to _how it works, can not, in principle it seems, produce any prediction based on empirical observation.

Most such theory may propose to define consciousness inevitably falls among the lines of “that’s how quantum collapse feels inside”, “that’s how information feels inside”, or “that’s how universe feels inside”.

We must therefore conclude that all of those so called theories of consciousness are ultimately untestable and unfalsifiable, definitely not scientific, but more like a crackpot fringe.
Zelebg January 26, 2020 at 18:00 #375787
d.) I hypothesise photons are made of unicorn tears, and I explain everything with a story that makes sense as much as quantum mechanics, but my equations are the same as QM, so I make all the same predictions and my theory is already validated as much, but can my predictions really be considered falsifiable? And even if they can, does that necessarily mean my hypothesis is falsifiable?

QM. The whole theory is based on statistical simplification of measurement tables and predictions thus follow “naturally”, kind of like my prediction that the sun will be bright when you look at it.

In QM you first measure, then you hypothesise by abstracting description of that experimental setup and explaining it with whatever nonsense, so then you just simply predict what you already measured.

We must therefore conclude that quantum mechanics is a fraud, I mean it is not falsifiable and thus not scientific, more like a crackpot fringe.
creativesoul January 26, 2020 at 21:50 #375878
Quoting bongo fury
the question is whether there is any problem with saying that a particular piece of butter (a particular statement) satisfies "melts at some temperature less than 100°C"...


All butter melts at some temperature less than one hundred degrees. So, I suppose I'm not seeing this problem that you're referring to.
Banno January 26, 2020 at 23:34 #375924
Quoting Zelebg
In case you missed, I mentioned a piece of information missing from the article.


SO, go fix the article.

Be Bold - all you gotta do is click Edit.
bongo fury January 27, 2020 at 10:18 #376086
Quoting creativesoul
this problem that you're referring to.


I am?

Quoting bongo fury
But the question is whether there is any problem with saying that a particular piece of butter (a particular statement) satisfies "melts at some temperature less than 100°C" (satisfies "renders counter-examples verifiable") even though it never got the chance to melt (to render a counter-example verifiable), because I ate it cold (because it had no counter-examples).


Just to be clear, the question was meant to be rhetorical, and the answer no.
sime January 27, 2020 at 11:51 #376101
It's a complex, ill-posed and frankly outdated assertion. Firstly, an observation O can only materially entail the contradiction of a hypothesis H in a closed finite world. For in an open-world, the meaning of the material implication O => ~H isn't empirically reducible to observations, and is instead an auxiliary hypothesis, A, which isn't itself entailed by some other observation on pain of infinite regress. So in an open world we have A => ( O => ~H) , and hence O => (~A OR ~H)
bongo fury January 27, 2020 at 12:41 #376115
Quoting sime
It's a complex, ill-posed and frankly outdated assertion. Firstly, an observation O can only materially entail the contradiction of a hypothesis H in a closed finite world. For in an open-world, the meaning of the material implication O => ~H isn't empirically reducible to observations, and is instead an auxiliary hypothesis, A, which isn't itself entailed by some other observation on pain of infinite regress. So in an open world we have A => ( O => ~H) , and hence O => (~A OR ~H)


And secondly?
Zelebg January 27, 2020 at 15:11 #376135
Reply to sime
For in an open-world, the meaning of the material implication O => ~H isn't empirically reducible to observations, and is instead an auxiliary hypothesis, A, which isn't itself entailed by some other observation on pain of infinite regress. So in an open world we have A => ( O => ~H) , and hence O => (~A OR ~H)


Can you show that idea with practical example?
Deleted User January 27, 2020 at 15:56 #376151
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
creativesoul January 27, 2020 at 16:04 #376157
Falsifiable hypotheses can be shown to be false.
creativesoul January 27, 2020 at 16:05 #376158
Current or future observations refute falsifiable hypotheses.
sime January 27, 2020 at 17:29 #376187
Quoting Zelebg
Can you show that idea with practical example?


Dark Energy hypotheses in physics are currently the most fashionable example as to why falsification isn't used in practice. Rather than considering the Hubble data of the speed of receding galaxies as refuting General Relativity, Physicists instead 'fix' GR as being true by proposing new and (individually) untestable auxiliary hypotheses so that GR still 'works in combination. In fact, to my understanding Dark energy isn't even at the stage of being a well-defined 'hypothesis'.

Auxiliary information also includes the trivial and taken-for-granted assumptions that your instrumentation is in 'full working order', that the laws of physics haven't changed since you began the experiment, that you aren't hallucinating, etc. etc. In short, no hypothesis is ever tested in isolation, and the auxiliary assumptions upon which the credibility of experiments rests aren't even exhaustively stateable, let alone formally stateable. Hence the reason why falsification isn't a good model of science or epistemic judgements in general. It's rooted in the archaic notion of logical Atomism - the idea that language has legible denotational semantics where the truth of a proposition stands or falls in isolation of the truth of every other proposition. But this is only true in toy-world scenarios described in an artificial language.

bongo fury January 27, 2020 at 17:49 #376196
Reply to sime

Yes, if the thread is about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#Criticisms
Zelebg January 27, 2020 at 18:41 #376223
Reply to sime
Hence the reason why falsification isn't a good model of science or epistemic judgements in general.


Alternative? Common auxiliary “side-effect information” inherent in empirical observation is a general problem we have to accept and ignore, what else?

I’d say dark energy example does not show failure of falsifiability, but astronomy. Also, theories of consciousness, like panpsychism, how is it any more scientific than religion? And what is it that separates hypothesis like religion from scientific ones if not falsifiability?
Banno January 27, 2020 at 21:50 #376307
Reply to tim wood Too wordy.
Banno January 27, 2020 at 21:51 #376309
Reply to creativesoul Yep; but apparently this is too brief.