Tao Te Ching appreciation thread
Tao Te Ching.
Just an opportunity to show love and appreciation for some of the most powerfully mind expanding words ever written. 81 short pages of distilled, concentrated wisdom which remains as relevant as ever. When i first encountered it, there were two reactions. Firstly, it seemed like it was a way of thinking that went in the completely opposite direction of nearly everything else. Secondly, it seemed to whisper things that i felt in the bones that could not be put into words. Usually only music seemed to work that magic.
There are several audio recordings of the Tao Te Ching. I prefer to listen to it because it seems to be mentally processed differently as opposed to reading it. The readings by Jacob Needleman, Ursula Le Guin, and Steven Mitchell are excellent, and each brings out a different flavor as well as being different translations.
Please share your thoughts about and experiences with this book. Thanks!
Just an opportunity to show love and appreciation for some of the most powerfully mind expanding words ever written. 81 short pages of distilled, concentrated wisdom which remains as relevant as ever. When i first encountered it, there were two reactions. Firstly, it seemed like it was a way of thinking that went in the completely opposite direction of nearly everything else. Secondly, it seemed to whisper things that i felt in the bones that could not be put into words. Usually only music seemed to work that magic.
There are several audio recordings of the Tao Te Ching. I prefer to listen to it because it seems to be mentally processed differently as opposed to reading it. The readings by Jacob Needleman, Ursula Le Guin, and Steven Mitchell are excellent, and each brings out a different flavor as well as being different translations.
Please share your thoughts about and experiences with this book. Thanks!
Comments (81)
What it expresses is a minimalistic Fractal Dragon equation within a broader Mandelbrot pattern of the I-Ching, or what can be described as the assertive masculine within the receptive feminine, and it does so by being able to treat every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value. A complete expression of the text would require some 4,430 poems, but 430 are enough to provide a good representation, however, in over 2,500 years roughly a 150 or so is the best anyone has managed to extrapolate. Within twenty years computers should be powerful enough to do the job.
Yes, totally understandable what you are saying about studying 6-10 translations minimum to get a fuller effect. And time, lots of time. Maybe since the original Chinese characters/pictographs were broader in meaning than, for example English equivalent words, it is near impossible to capture its meaning in one translation. The deep subject matter makes it more difficult. But that is the beauty of it. By reading multiple translations, one can pick and choose which ones really illuminates a particular verse. Some make me go "???" Some make me think "ok, that's very well put!". And some just blow my socks off and bring tears. But it also depends on one's circumstances and state of mind. (Almost like choosing a fine wine to go with dinner. :) )
According to who? It that something that requires validation, or can anyone say that?
According to me. They say when you master it you become part of what the Taoists call the "Yin World" and whisper about among themselves knowing no outsider could possibly understand much less accept what that means. When you master the text it tells you what to write and, among Rainbow Warriors, the proof is in the pudding with our poetry being considered the best indication of how good someone's personal philosophy happens to be.
That and five bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.
it becomes like the sea:
all streams run downward into it.
The more powerful it grows,
the greater the need for humility.
Humility means trusting the Tao,
thus never needing to be defensive. A great nation is like a great man:
When he makes a mistake, he realizes it.
Having realized it, he admits it.
Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults
as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy
as the shadow that he himself casts. If a nation is centered in the Tao,
if it nourishes its own people
and doesn't meddle in the affairs of others,
it will be a light to all nations in the world.
-chapter 61 (from ios app by John Bogil)
"a nation... centered in the Tao". One hopes that it is still possible at this point. May the leaders of the world act in accord with this ideal. To the extent that they do may be our only hope. As for me, removing the Berlin walls in my mind and the barbed wire in my heart is almost a full time occupation. But it's a good start.
I recall the story of the extraordinary Matteo Ricci. He was the first Christian missionary in China, a Jesuit, who arrived in the early 16th Century. He mastered classical Chinese and many branches of classical Chinese learning, and dressed as a Buddhist monk (and later a Confucian scholar). He stayed for more than 20 years and so impressed the Chinese that they gave him an imperial state banquet on the eve of his departure. At this banquet, he was asked to speak, and amazed his hosts, when he rose to his feet and delivered improvised classical Chinese verse.
Matteo Ricci, dressed in Confucian scholarly attire.
(Regrettably, the Dominicans and Franciscans, who arrived a little later, felt Father Ricci had been far too accomodating to the heathen and caused such offence to the Emperor that within a few generations, Christians had lost the priviledged position that the incomparable Ricci had brought them.)
Its a western anarchistic hippie thing that evolved into what is known as the Rainbow Gathering. Back to the land hippies would meet in a national forest every solstice and equinox to celebrate their own holidays. There are no leaders, just hippies who call themselves the Rainbow Family Tribe and organize themselves using a handful of traditions including no violence or money exchanging hands at a gathering. Many of us have invented our own additional traditions including extrapolating poetry from the Tao Te Ching and combining it with Socratic wisdom.
The poetry is actually a well known genre that is popular around the world and all the metaphors it incorporates are agreed upon by the people who read and write it because its all mathematical. You could say we are carrying on a prehistoric tradition in developing the mathematics of nature that express how love rules the physical universe.
Why can't the ones with power and wealth comprehend it? What is the necessary link between power and wealth ability of comprehension in this case?
Its memory systems logic with a chicken flock providing the classic example. The lights are on when nobody is home and the mob is going on autopilot just following the money around like so many cattle. Like a good autopilot on an airplane their reactionary politics prevent the cattle from mindlessly stampeding over the nearest cliff more often. Forty years of studies have finally confirmed that the republican party is organized along the lines of a flock of chickens, but they just represent the obvious tip of iceberg of all the revelations coming about how civilization actually functions.
Within twenty years computers will catch up to all this nonsense and the fundamentals of systems logic are now being revealed by the mathematicians and physicists. Already we can predict the tipping point of such systems, like predicting the temperature at which something will boil, and can now mathematically predict how to destroy the resilience of organizations like the republican party. It seems Asimov was right about "psychohistory", except, instead of quantum mechanics it requires systems logic.
Screw the civilized mystical Taoists, these are the primitive pragmatic tribal roots of Taoism. Contemplating your naval and playing politics might be productive in some ways, but the world needs more than that these days. We allow our poetry to speak for itself and beautiful words are honest words that can defy even unbalanced gravity hanging in the air between us.
And you could put that in your pipe or bong and smoke it! (lol! :D )
What stops the Republican party from doing the same? And more importantly, if you can predict with mathematical precision, then please predict for me how to destroy the resilience of Coca-Cola because I want to open a beverage company competing with them and winning :P
Quoting wuliheron
What does the world need then?
It will be another twenty years before the computers can spit out the numbers, and probably a hundred before they'll collected most of the basic information required, but the beginning of the end will be within twenty years with the introduction of a Theory of Everything. Robots might take over our jobs, but that's just an indication that money is becoming less important than information and the ability to use it. What the world needs is a metaphoric Theory of Everything and Nothing that can give humanity back their sense of humor which has been suppressed in favor of seeking truth and beauty in the name of growth and progress.
Okay, but I gave you a practical problem. I wanna beat Coca-Cola. How do I go about it? If this beginning of systems logic cannot even suggest a path to do that, why should I trust it? It seems to be no better than classical theories that we already know - they too fail to give a way.
And you haven't answered the question of what the world actually needs, I'm curious what you think that is!
Systems logic is already being used in countless ways including to make weather predictions and meteorologists are already talking about implementing weather control both on local levels and globally. You can run, but you cannot hide from your own truth.
Sure it is used, but that's not what I'm asking for. I've actually studied and worked with chaos theory for engineering purposes with regards to structural dynamics. So I know it exists and it is used. But I gave a specific problem. How does one compete with Coca Cola in the production and sale of canned coke? How does systems logic answer THIS kind of question? This isn't a technical question - what is the weather over there, or what happens to this column in such loading/vibration conditions. I'm asking how systems logic helps address these non-technical, non-numerical problems.
(singing, accompanied by a piano and soft horns)
What... the... world... needs now...
is love... sweet love
It's the only thing, that there's just too little of...
Now, everyone join in! What the world needs now...
(L) O:) (L) (sorry! thanks for playing the straight man. lol)
Coca Cola is a money making machine and not a product. Already computers have taken over perhaps 30% of the business of Wall Street because they are faster and becoming more complex than even people. Humans are just much too slow for too many of these tasks and systems logic can be self-assembling where you just have to apply the fundamentals and watch what it does.
Well yeah good luck with that. Very often when people run out of things to say they speak of love, but they do so vacuously, with love meaning only some vague kind of compassion, with no specific way to implement in practical situations. So it's just like getting each other drunk on cheap wine.
Love is synonymous with the truth and not another academic or political platform to be debated. If academics and politicians can't use the word then its because civilization can't because they are always too busy fighting over weapons, money, and resources. Hence, the reason we just elected a bigot, professional wrestling fan, and reality TV star president.
Ok I know about this too. I know that stock trading is getting handed over to the computers with more and more complex models at predicting market moves. James Simmons, the billionaire and mathematician who runs a hedge fund operates according to such principles and has been very successful himself. But again I don't care about systems logic answering this kind of question. These are questions which have numerical answers, and depend on numbers alone. That is indeed doable. I'm interested about a different kind of question as I said before.
So yes okay, Coca-Cola is a money making machine. Suppose my intention is to make another money-making machine competing with Coca-Cola in the production and commercialization of canned coke. How does systems logic practically help me in solving such a problem? This problem cannot be answered by vague words, nor by numbers. So how does systems logic actually help?
Henry Ford was the first to develop the assembly line and, today, the major industries and governments are all investing countless billions in self-assembling technology. Reel to reel printing and other types of self-assembly including computers and a new self-assembling quantum computer even. Its analog logic which rules reality as we know it and, while we've master digital logic which is easier for error correction, the analog is about to show us the foundations of mathematics. Self-assembly is pattern matching which means its like assembling a giant jig saw puzzle where you have no real choice but to learn as you go and merely by assembling the puzzle new and greater truths are revealed about how to assemble it even better.
Okay so it seems to be that you propose that a straight answer cannot be given because we simply don't know it and we must advance towards an answer, and we will get it by doing. Just like in chess you cannot say in the beginning how exactly you will overcome an opponent. I agree with that, pretty much. But certainly a first move has to be made right? How does systems logic help us choose that first move, that every journey must begin with?
There are people around the world assembling all the pieces as fast as they can with scientists having long ago divided themselves into four groups that are each searching for specific fractal recursions in nature. Commercial companies as well have joined in the action with Microsoft announcing they are now building a topological quantum computer. If my own theory is right, they will require four distinctive topological computers in order to predict roughly half of just about anything humanly imaginable. AI research and a Theory of Everything are one and the same thing.
Okay but that's not an answer to the question is it? You haven't explained how it actually happens that a non-numerical answer of this kind could be provided by numerical means.
My own view is we are staring into the abyss and logic actually revolves around what is missing from this picture or, bullshit if you prefer. Hence, our Rainbow poetry and the Tao Te Ching can describe life, the universe, and everything as a systems logic by merely treating every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value. Once you have the complete 430 poems it should be easy enough to translate into the metaphoric emotional-logic of Intuitionistic mathematics. They're about four times as complex as those of classical mathematics. It means logic and jokes, beauty and humor, are two ends of the same spectrum explaining why mathematicians are suddenly showing intense interest in humor and have already created the first quantifiable theory of humor. Its an expression of particle-wave duality.
But that's not really what you mean. You don't really mean that every word has no intrinsic meaning or value. All that you mean is that the intrinsic meaning or value of the word is given always from the outside (in other words is transcendent) - from the context in which it is employed. The whole (or God) gives shape and being to the part.
Quoting wuliheron
I take it from this that you believe that everything is, at its foundations, mathematics. Is this true? And if it is, why do you think this is so?
The first quantifiable theory of humor has already established its validity with empirical evidence by describing what is observable. That's what quantifiable means, either the numbers add up or they don't and they made their discovery studying Dr Seuss. Anything low in entropy can be considered funny, which is polite technobabble for humor revolves around bullshit or what's missing from this picture. Already two computer systems have been built that can produce funnier than average jokes and the academic slapstick is just getting started with the federal government admitting they have classified a few jokes as "Vital to the National Defense" because of the analog systems logic they contain.
And I do mean every word can be treated as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value, what others refer to as "Oneness" mysticism can also be interpreted as humor or any number of things because every word is treated as a variable. Some have said the Tao Te Ching is the deepest philosophical well on the planet, but its also the deepest pile of crap imaginable.
Its metaphorical or analog logic where what's real and imaginary isn't the issue because its both. They say the first thing you learn about systems logic is that half the planet doesn't know such a thing is possible, which, includes the English speaking half. Donald Hoffman is a Game theorist who discovered, according to all the evidence, if the human mind and brain had ever resembled anything remotely like reality we would have become extinct as a species.
Its modern Contextualism or Functionalism which asserts that knowledge without faith is a contradiction in terms. Its the Socratic school of thought that we must all have faith in our own awareness in order to possess any which, of course, includes having faith in our own knowledge. Either you have a personal truth or, all I can say is, good luck with that.
I agree with the Socratic.
The role of Taoism in Chinese culture is broadly speaking 'counter-cultural'. Taoists are often depicted as vagabonds or recluses, and some of the best-known Taoist literature, such as the marvellous Chuang Tzu, regularly poked fun at the Confucian scholars for being stuffy and bound by convention. Over the centuries Taoism assumed many forms, and also absorbed a great deal of folk religion, magic and medicine, but the archetypical Taoist sage is definitely a loner, someone on the fringes of society - along the lines of the original sceptics and cynics in ancient Greek culture.
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action. Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the way of the Way.
-chapter 43
Quoting Hanover
Teaching without words is merely how we express the self-evident truth that the greater context of the truth only asserts itself within the silent void. Either you have personal integrity and you can express poetry in motion or you don't and fall on your butt and you can learn how to do this in any number of disciplines such as martial arts, dancing, or writing poetry as I do. My Rainbow Poetry expresses the silences between the notes and pauses in our more heartfelt conversations because, paradoxically, treating every word as a variable with no intrinsic meaning or value lends them collectively all that much more meaning and value because the greater context of the truth decides the value of everything and the more we surrender to our words the more they can express.
Beautiful words are honest words which can defy unbalanced gravity itself and change the world as it we know it for the better only because they come from the heart and the spark within which can never die. If you have no personal truth philosophy is just another word spouted by con-artists and wannabe comedians. This is what Socrates taught, that philosophy is about ethics and personal integrity. Humorously, it can also be expressed as the principle of, "As others have taught, so must I, great behinds stink alike anonymously." Often I tell people, "When the student is poorly prepared, the master is rudely awakened" for we are all our own worst student and the master within us is rudely awakened when already believe we know all the answers.
Many people find the idea of ethics and values altogether worthless in our modern material world.
When starting the thread, it was a coin toss whether to put it in General Philosophy or Philosophy of Religion, if that is what you are referring to. The moderators could move it to the appropriate sub-forum if necessary.
Interesting aside.
Fair enough. I just wonder if it's either, though. I find this more a theological discussion than a philosophy of religion discussion. Assuming I come into this discussion with the notion that these Eastern belief systems are B.S., it seems I'd have no place in this discussion other than me constantly screaming that I'm a non-believer.
On the other hand, if you were debating whether the Tao itself made sense and were presenting logical and empirical bases for your position, then it would be a philosophical debate and my screaming that I'm a non-believer would be misplaced.
The Art of War is not as familiar to me, but is filled with insights that could be applied to the give and take of daily life:
“He who advances without seeking fame,
Who retreats without escaping blame,
He whose one aim is to protect his people and serve his lord,
The man is a jewel of the Realm”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“If those who are sent to draw water begin by drinking themselves, the army is suffering from thirst. [One may know the condition of a whole army from the behavior of a single man.]”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:
(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
“In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity”
? Sun Tzu, A Arte da Guerra
Quoting 0 thru 9
To seek fame is to be attached to a goal which doesn't have practical value - fame isn't going to make you win, nor help you rule over the realms.
Quoting 0 thru 9
To escape blame is to never learn from your mistakes, and the moment you stop learning defeat becomes certain.
Quoting 0 thru 9
Your goal has to be driven by something greater than yourself - you can't do it for yourself, you must do it for a grander ambition, for a much greater purpose, which will rally you and everyone else around a common target - which will give you the motivation to do anything - even risk your own life, for its achievement.
Quoting 0 thru 9
To this man shall be handed all the kingdoms, and he shall rule over all of them, because only he deserves.
Quoting 0 thru 9
The cause before the person.
Quoting 0 thru 9
The reckless general does not plan and have the patience to wait for the right conditions to launch his attack and thus sends his troops to perish.
Quoting 0 thru 9
The coward does not have the cojones to stand his own ground and fight, and the moment things get rough, he would rather surrender than keep going. He has no dignity.
Quoting 0 thru 9
Your enemy will use any means necessary to get you to make a mistake. Thus even your so called hasty temper has to be controlled. Fake a hasty temper, in truth be controlled, and be capable any moment to put an end to it.
Quoting 0 thru 9
A man who wants honor, doesn't really want victory.
Quoting 0 thru 9
Do not over-extend, do not ask for more than can be currently given. Patience will win the day. Win slowly, but surely.
Quoting 0 thru 9
Only in chaos is there a chance to be great. In stable times, there is no greatness. All greatness, and all heroes, are born out of disaster. The hero thirsts for disaster, so that he may put it right.
Watch or read The Three Kingdoms. Make notes on both Liu Bei and Cao Cao. Identify what strengths and weaknesses each have, and why Cao Cao wins at first, and why Liu Bei inevitably wins in the end. See, for example, how Liu Bei, even though he's losing battle after battle, is actually winning. Understand why. The difference between him and Cao Cao is that Cao Cao is fighting for his own glory and power - he has no larger mission. His men follow him out of fear - the moment they find a better master who is likely to win, they will all leave. But Liu Bei is losing - and yet, he builds an array of people, across the entire realm, who know that he is righteous, who know that he will fight for them, who know that he will govern with sincerity and integrity. And these people - when they shall be called - will be willing to go to their graves like beds for him. Whereas Cao Cao will be betrayed when the situation looks bad for him, Liu Bei will be obeyed and followed, even if it means death. So while outwardly it seems like he's losing, the truth is that he is acquiring capital, building up the most important resource in war - loyalty and a team - whereas Cao Cao impatiently hurries towards victory, Liu Bei is like the cunning serpent, waiting and waiting and waiting, because he knows that the more time passes, the more certain his victory shall be.
And let's not forget that China has been dominating most of history, economically:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/06/the-economic-history-of-the-last-2-000-years-in-1-little-graph/258676/
Thanks for the thoughtful responses and commentary. Most appreciated! Feel free to post further lines from either the Tao te Ching or The Art of War, and a response or insight. (this goes for anyone wishing to contribute, of course). And will check out "The Three Kingdoms" when possible. Thanks for the introduction to it!
In the movie "Do the Right Thing", there is a scene where a crowd has gathered after a near accident involving a child and a car. The police arrive and ask if anyone saw what happened. The character played by the wonderful Ossie Davis intones in a deep voice, "Those that know, don't talk. And those that talk, don't know." To which the officer replies, "What is that, voodoo?" Very interesting little scene indeed. The tragic and comic balanced artfully. The line referred to being from verse 56 of the Tao:
Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know. Close your mouth,
block off your senses,
blunt your sharpness,
untie your knots,
soften your glare,
settle your dust.
This is the primal identity. Be like the Tao.
It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
benefited or harmed,
honored or brought into disgrace.
It gives itself up continually.
That is why it endures.
yet keep to the female:
receive the world in your arms.
If you receive the world,
the Tao will never leave you
and you will be like a little child. Know the white,
yet keep to the black:
be a pattern for the world.
If you are a pattern for the world,
the Tao will be strong inside you
and there will be nothing you can't do. Know the personal,
yet keep to the impersonal:
accept the world as it is.
If you accept the world,
the Tao will be luminous inside you
and you will return to your primal self. The world is formed from the void,
like utensils from a block of wood.
The Master knows the utensils,
yet keeps to the the block:
thus she can use all things.
-chapter 28
Every year, every month, every day, every nanosecond is a brand new block of wood to carve. What will we make with it now?
I'm a master of The Sneetches.
"[i]Who knows his manhood's strength,
Yet still his female feebleness maintains;
As to one channel flow the many drains,
All come to him, yea, all beneath the sky.
Thus he the constant excellence retains;
The simple child again, free from all stains.
Who knows how white attracts,
Yet always keeps himself within black's shade,
The pattern of humility displayed,
Displayed in view of all beneath the sky;
He in the unchanging excellence arrayed,
Endless return to man's first state has made.
Who knows how glory shines,
Yet loves disgrace, nor e'er for it is pale;
Behold his presence in a spacious vale,
To which men come from all beneath the sky.
The unchanging excellence completes its tale;
The simple infant man in him we hail.
The unwrought material, when divided and distributed, forms vessels. The sage, when employed, becomes the Head of all the Officers (of government); and in his greatest regulations he employs no violent measures.[/i]"
-Laozi, "Daodejing", ch. 28, Legge translation.
http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing28.php
Alright. First line: "Who knows his manhood's strength, Yet still his female feebleness maintains". This relates to the first two chapters of the "I Ching", "The Creative" and "The Receptive". This line is about wu-wei, maintaining non-action in the midst of change. Miyamoto Musashi notes, in his "Book of Five Rings" (Scroll of Emptiness):
"In emptiness there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, mind is empty."
Links to the relevant chapters of the "I Ching":
http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#1
http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#2
Right.
Second line. "As to one channel flow the many drains, All come to him, yea, all beneath the sky."
The first part, "as to one channel flow the many drains", alludes to water and it's symbology in classical Chinese parlance. In this sense, water represents a yin attitude. The "I Ching" notes (hexagram 29, "Water"): "Water reaches its goal by flowing continually. It fills up every depression before it flows on."
Hexagram 29:
http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#29
The second part states "All come to him, yea, all beneath the sky". This is explained in line 5 hexagram 1 of the "I Ching":
"Things that accord in tone vibrate together. Things that have affinity in their inmost natures seek one another. Water flows to what is wet, fire turns to what is dry. Clouds (the breath of heaven) follow the dragon, wind (the breath of earth) follows the tiger. Thus the sage arises, and all creatures follow him with their eyes. What is born of heaven feels related to what is above. What is born of earth feels related to what is below. Each follows its kind."
It also alludes to the mysterious forces emanating from sage kings like Yao, Shun and Yu, as outlined in the relevant chapters of the "Shang Shu" (China's early sage kings are considered as model rulers according to daoists. They are held in the highest reverence.).
The final line of the first paragraph states: "Thus he the constant excellence retains; The simple child again, free from all stains." This is explained in chapter 25 of the "I Ching", "Innocence/the unexpected:
"Ch'ien, heaven is above; Chên, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chên is under the influence of the strong line it has received form above, from heaven. When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost."
http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#25
The same concept returns in the "Zhuangzi" (outer chapters, "Heaven and Earth", 8):
"In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)."
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth#n2792
The rest of the chapter basically repeats what's being said in the first paragraph.
The first few lines of Chapter 1 are:
The way you can go
isn't the real way.
The name you can say
isn't the real name.
I was on the train heading home from work while reading this. The 2nd set of lines made some sense to me, probably because of my Western viewpoint. "A name for something isn't the real thing". But the first 2 lines were confusing. As I was riding the train, I realized the station map and the (automatic) announcer on the train were going backwards; it was set to a different part o the city. We were going over a particularly long stretch between stations, and periodically the automatic announcer would say "this is 30th Ave", and then the train crew would cut it off because it was wrong. Of course, we were headed in the "right" direction the whole time. So, "the way you can go/isn't the real way", indeed.
There really isn't much to go on. We have the account of Sima Qian, and... that's about it. The rest is conjecture, and even Sima Qians account doesn't hold up that well. Then there's the discussion on the authorship of the "Daodejing" itself, and if Li Er (Laozi) served as a mouthpiece for other anonymous writers or not.
Such be the case, the Dao De Jing is as understandable or understandable as a good read of Shakespeare, and as with Shakespeare, meaning will change as the reader's experience evolves. As for me, I look upon the Dao De Jing, not as a book of wisdom but rather a book of chants that ancient people sang together to utter their view of life. It the view that is not too dissimilar from Heraclitus who saw the universe as Lagos in flux. If nothing more, this thought is enough to make these two philosophies worthwhile to study. The ideas of the Fao De Jing are for us to discover and in so doing provide us with a deeper understanding of the universe. Such an understanding can only be derived via experience though books can certainly lead us to different paths to explore.
No matter how beautiful and perfect
One cannot fly with one wing
A diamond with a defect
With Yin being their left wing, and Yang their right,
The harmonious one lifts the world up into flight.
Hey, thanks! Great responses and insights. You get to pick the next chapter to discuss! (Y)
(Well, actually anyone can pick any chapter they want. But a good answer deserves a prize.)
:D
Well, I particularly like chapters 5 and 11:
"[i]Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.
May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a bellows?'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.
Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see;
Your inner being guard, and keep it free.[/i]"
-Daodejing, Legge translation, ch. 5.
"[i]The thirty spokes unite in the one nave; but it is on the empty space (for the axle), that the use of the wheel depends. Clay is fashioned into vessels; but it is on their empty hollowness, that their use depends. The door and windows are cut out (from the walls) to form an apartment; but it is on the empty space (within), that its use depends.
Therefore, what has a (positive) existence serves for profitable adaptation, and what has not that for (actual) usefulness.[/i]"
-Ibid. ch. 11.
The great Tao flows everywhere.
All things are born from it,
yet it doesn't create them.
It pours itself into its work,
yet it makes no claim.
It nourishes infinite worlds,
yet it doesn't hold on to them...
...Music or the smell of good cooking
may make people stop and enjoy.
But words that point to the Tao
seem monotonous and without flavor.
When you look for it, there is nothing to see.
When you listen for it, there is nothing to hear.
When you use it, it is inexhaustible.
I didn't know this thread existed. Yay Tao!!
I like this verse because it is a milder restatement of the first verse, my favorite - "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao."
Lao Tzu, what a funny guy.
Clearing out the attic, and it's full of work done and forgotten. Stuff that I might get round to using, too good to throw away - wood, cloth, and above all paper. Childrens' school work, art projects, my poems, half written stories, philosophy notes journals. If I was famous, it would be an archive worth a fortune for academics to trawl through. As it is, the recycle bin is going to be very full every week for the foreseeable.
So I'm imagining god or the drowning man, or you, going through my actual life, deciding whether any of it is worth keeping... there are a few things that I still want to keep, and a few that my children will hold onto; perhaps I have said a kind or helpful word here and there...