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Is consciousness located in the brain?

Wheatley December 05, 2019 at 04:48 9350 views 49 comments
From here on I'm going to assume that consciousness plays a role human behavior. I think it's pretty obvious that consciousness plays a role in human behavior. Just try to have a normal conversation with someone while they are knocked out. You can't.

Behaviorist psychologists talk about stimulus and response, but by doing so they neglect the mind. They might do better to talk about stimulus, mind, and response. There's something in between the stimulus and response, and that is the mind.

Here's where consciousness fits in to all of this. Consciousness is surely a state of mind, so it fits into the stimulus, mind, and response, sequence. The question: "Is consciousness located in the brain?", is dependent on whether the mind is located in the brain (because consciousness is a state of mind). I think it is, mind and brain are intimately connected, and where else would it be located?

Thoughts?

Comments (49)

khaled December 05, 2019 at 06:09 #359180
I don't think you "locate" mind. Can you point to it? Extract it? Throw it around? No, then you can't "locate" it can you.
Wheatley December 05, 2019 at 06:33 #359187
Quoting khaled
I don't think you "locate" mind. Can you point to it? Extract it? Throw it around? No, then you can't "locate" it can you.

If the mind really is inside your brain then I don't think you would able to do any of those, at least not with current technology.

I don't believe your reasoning is correct here. Can you point, extract, throw around, all brain activity? No. Does that mean that some brain activity doesn't have a location in the brain? No.
BC December 05, 2019 at 07:18 #359194
Reply to Wheatley Yes, consciousness is in the brain as a whole. It seems to be an emergent property of the brain's activity--that is, it isn't located in a particular gyrus or sulcus. Some people are bothered by consciousness not having a location in the atlas of the brain. It doesn't bother me. I'm just glad it's there.
khaled December 05, 2019 at 08:05 #359199
Reply to Wheatley I'm trying to say that mind isn't a physical object. What you're asking for is akin to asking "Is heat located in a hot iron". I just think it's a category error to try and "locate" a property. Where is the color purple on thephilosophyforum's heading?
I like sushi December 05, 2019 at 08:21 #359208
Reply to Wheatley I think there is a common misconception about the ‘extent’ of consciousness. Meaning, people have a tendency to think of consciousness neatly packaged away in some specific area of the brain - this is never the case for anything as there are ‘networks’ of items intertwined in many ways on many ‘layers’ (both literally and metaphorically).

The most useful person to turn to in this situation - as far as I’ve found - is Damasio. The whole body gives us consciousness even if we’re not attentive to it. In terms of behaviorism we ‘feel’ scared; meaning our conscious experience of an ‘emotion’ is ‘feeling’ (muscular tension, sweating, and increased heart rate). The interconnectedness of the brain organ (which is itself essentially a group of separated ‘areas’ we’ve partially created due to physical divisions and archaic maps that were based on a handful of research papers - hippocampus, Wernicke’s area, etc.,.) with various parts on the body and via numerous lines of communication (biochemical and/or via nerve cells) quickly makes the idea of nailing down a specific area of ‘consciousness’ as a little silly. If you think about having your arm chopped off you may still experience pain in the arm that isn’t there, butI can guarantee you won’t experience pain in the arm that isn’t growing out of your back because it never existed - then again ... I imagine some state of psychosis may induce such an experience, but you get the idea ;)

There is a very limited scope of terms in this area. Over the centuries we’ve used ‘spirit’, ‘self’, ‘ego’, ‘soul’, ‘mind’, ‘ken’, ‘consciousness’, ‘agent’, ‘memory’, ‘subject’, ‘monad’ and several dozen more in hundreds of languages. It’s a minefield for misconception, misunderstandings and misrepresentation.

Personally I just like to say I ‘experience’ and leave it at that. What is ‘experience’? Well, hopefully I don’t need to explain to you the gist of what ‘experience’ is as you’ll be ‘having it’ now. After that the only question I really have is why you’re asking anything more and to what end? Are you pushing a personal agenda or simply flying in the face of an existential type line of questioning?

The question behind the questioning is usually more telling. Questions without their dead parents are kind of in free fall more often than not - I’d say especially so in this case as the terms lack universal application in day-to-day speech. We can at least all agree, well enough, that ‘experience’ isn’t a term we’re going to deny where terms like ‘mind’ or ‘spirit’ create an instant shudder down many people’s spines.
christian2017 December 05, 2019 at 10:38 #359232
Reply to Wheatley

Sometimes i think we all share the same collective conscious. Your consciousness is a subset and so is mine. We are held responsible to some extent for how we carry ourselves out in terms of how we view the world. Perhaps the universe in its entirety is the whole set of all consciousness. I understand this is a common concept in eastern philosophy.

Ofcourse this is all speculation.
ovdtogt December 05, 2019 at 11:33 #359265
Quoting Wheatley
"Is consciousness located in the brain?",


All living things show a degree of 'consciousness'. Every cell in your body has 'consciousness'. You are the accumulation of all the cells in your body. Thought is a byproduct of your brain. You identify yourself with your thoughts. You believe you are your thoughts.
Enrique December 05, 2019 at 12:03 #359272
Reply to Wheatley

According to Demasio, some of the ancients believed the mind was located in the chest, as the heart. The concept of mind can change. Future research will probably theorize the mind as more than a product of traditional solution chemistry happening on a microscopic scale in neurons.

Reply to ovdtogt

That's probably accurate, science and philosophy identify our minds as our thinking, and we perceive our thoughts to be occurring in our brains, so we look for mind in the understanding of a particular brain region, but this Early Modern concept is being revolutionized.
ovdtogt December 05, 2019 at 12:48 #359281
Reply to Enrique Exactly. Consciousness is a 'whole body' experience. And our perceptions are 'hallucinations'.
Pantagruel December 05, 2019 at 14:37 #359307
Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, there is a well-studied cognitive phenomenon called either "embedded cognition" or "embodied cognition" which quantifies the extent to which cognitive processing is actually a function of environmental cues. ie. consciousness exists 'in situ'. I first encountered it in a book called "The Embodied Mind". I think the principle has merit, and, to the extent it is true, has interesting implications for such things as "collective consciousness", which is one of my pet concepts.
Deleted User December 05, 2019 at 14:49 #359312
Quoting Enrique
According to Demasio, some of the ancients believed the mind was located in the chest, as the heart.
And there is a complicated nexus of nerves near the heart. Also one near the gut. The idea that we have gut reactions (with a cognitive content) and heart values and cognitive processes are likely to be true, not just metaphors.

bert1 December 05, 2019 at 22:12 #359449
Reply to Wheatley I don't think it is right to say phenomenal consciousness is located in the brain, but I think identity very likely is. It seems to me that when people say 'consciousness' they are sometimes confusing it with identity.
I like sushi December 06, 2019 at 02:02 #359542
Reply to bert1 Show me a human whose brain has been removed that is conscious. I can refer to cases where humans are conscious whilst lacking numerous organs (except the brain). Evidence matters.
bert1 December 06, 2019 at 17:34 #359690
A human whose brain has been removed has lost its identity, and therefore cannot be a subject, it seems to me. I think identity is what comes and goes, the units change.

What evidence are you referring to? Things like someone getting knocked out, psychoactive drugs changing experience by acting on the brain, that kind of thing?
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 18:11 #359700
Quoting I like sushi
Show me a human whose brain has been removed that is conscious. I can refer to cases where humans are conscious whilst lacking numerous organs (except the brain). Evidence matters.


A human who has had his heart removed is not demonstrably conscious either. The brain may be integral to the operation of the organism, the organism may still be, in the broadest sense, conscious, in the sense that consciousness is actively engaged in an ongoing information exchange with the environment in many different ways.
ovdtogt December 06, 2019 at 18:35 #359711
Quoting I like sushi
Show me a human whose brain has been removed that is conscious. I can refer to cases where humans are conscious whilst lacking numerous organs (except the brain). Evidence matters.


The brain may not be conscious. But if the body stays alive, the body can be considered conscious. I think we confuse consciousness with self-consciousness, which is awareness of oneself. This is the highest form of consciousness that we know of but all awareness is consciousness. All life contains consciousness, otherwise it could not survive.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 18:43 #359718
I have mentioned "embedded cognition" before, it didn't generate much interest. So I cut a quote from a UCLA professor of psychiatry, also arguing for essentially embedded cognition. He describes how a key feature of mind is "the emergent self-organizing process, both embodied and relational, that regulates energy and information flow within and among us." Which implies "In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves. Siegel argues that it’s impossible to completely disentangle our subjective view of the world from our interactions."

As it happens I'm also currently doing a lot of reading on systems theory, which is the emergent self-organizing processes he is describing.
ovdtogt December 06, 2019 at 18:48 #359722
Quoting Pantagruel
"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves.


So when I am hammering in a nail it is in fact my brain that is doing it, not my arms, hands and hammer?
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 18:50 #359723
Quoting ovdtogt
So when I am hammering in a nail it is in fact my brain that is doing it, not my arms, hands and hammer?


So, I am fascinated by your thought processes. I provide examples and arguments parallel or directly supportive of your positions, and you seem to repeatedly misinterpret them as contradictory or antagonistic. Maybe you are a little defensive?

No, the exact opposite, when you are hammering in a nail it is a holistic experience. Exactly what the UCLA professor says, which I have always believed, as a proponent of embedded cognition.

Edit: Sorry, it is frustrating enough to be misinterpreted by someone with whom you disagree, let alone someone you don't!
NOS4A2 December 06, 2019 at 19:05 #359725
Reply to Pantagruel

Great point. Consciousness would need to permeate through the entire organism, beginning and ending at the surface of the skin. I would argue “consciousness” is a direct one-to-one ratio with the entire body. If a man loses a finger, for instance, he is that much less conscious.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:08 #359727
Reply to NOS4A2 To whatever extent he loses some operational capacity, perhaps so.

The professor quoted above goes on to say, if he is asked to describe the shore, it is neither land, nor, sea, it is both. Likewise, you really can't say where the boundaries of an organism are. It depends on which systems you are looking at, digestive, tactile, endocrine, etc. They have different interactive boundaries.
NOS4A2 December 06, 2019 at 19:17 #359729
Reply to Pantagruel

Assuming the professor is Lakoff, take a Read of his book “Philosophy in the Flesh” if you get a chance.

I think an organism has a boundary by virtue of it being finite. The organism begins and ends at its surface.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:21 #359730
Reply to NOS4A2 But the point is, what is a surface? It is an interaction with the environment. Digestion is a surface. Respiration is a surface. The skin is a tactile boundary. Some organisms can react to chemical concentrations that are extremely tiny and relate to sources that are extremely far away from them. Their "surface" can be quite some distance exterior to their physical shell.

Edit: ooo..the embodied mind and its challenge to western thought, that does strike a chord. Thanks.
ovdtogt December 06, 2019 at 19:21 #359731
Reply to Pantagruel Sorry I must be thick because I just don't understand this sentence.

Quoting Pantagruel
"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves.


Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:23 #359732
Reply to ovdtogt Better than being wrong :) JK.
NOS4A2 December 06, 2019 at 19:25 #359733
Reply to Pantagruel

Well, I wouldn’t go that far. The human skin is a surface given that the human organism does not extend beyond it.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:33 #359735
Reply to NOS4A2 Again, it depends on the type of interaction and there are many that are not limited to the surface of the skin. There is an excellent essay on perception and activation in the frogs eye. Similarly, the boundary between brain and body isn't straightforward, innervation and ennervation can take place at different locales, depending on the mechanisms and how they involved. When I read the essay in question, I had a really clear insight how the frogs eye was essentially just part of its brain (central nervous system). I have a photocopy of it somewhere, I'll take a look. It is just a logical extension of the concept of embodied cognition. The lines between environment and entity can appear to be clear cut, but they are not necessarily so.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:38 #359737
Reply to ovdtogt Quoting ovdtogt
?Pantagruel Sorry I must be thick because I just don't understand this sentence.

"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves.
— Pantagruel

Not just the thoughts "Do this. I am doing this. I did this." The whole experience, the actions, the interactions. I think the notion "holistic" works. Like you said, the act of hammering, not reduced to an intention or a brain signal. The whole event and context.
ovdtogt December 06, 2019 at 19:43 #359738
Quoting Pantagruel
Not just the thoughts "Do this. I am doing this. I did this." The whole experience, the actions, the interactions. I think the notion "holistic" works.


Quoting Pantagruel
"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves.


Okay, but which problem does it solve, looking at it 'holistically' that we couldn't solve or understand otherwise?

I would expect a theory or hypothesis to answer a previously incomprehensible issue or unsolvable question.

Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 19:47 #359741
Reply to ovdtogt K. Your basic position is that consciousness is a "whole body experience". This is extremely close to that, extends a little further but essentially is compatible.

Unless there are two ovdtogt's on here and you're the other one?
ovdtogt December 06, 2019 at 19:54 #359744
Quoting Pantagruel
Your basic position is that consciousness is a "whole body experience".


Not quite. I believe consciousness is essential to life. No life without consciousness. The 1 cell organism has to be conscious (aware) of it's surrounding for it's survival. Consciousness lies at the root of life. As you add the senses (sight, sound, touch, taste.....) these are all conscious enhancements. Then you get the even higher cognitive conscious abilities and ultimately the self-consciousness that we posses.
It is all part of 1 continuum. From very primal to very complex consciousness.
NOS4A2 December 06, 2019 at 19:59 #359747
Reply to Pantagruel

I suppose I’ll have to read the arguments. The shore analogy doesn’t quite cut if for me.

But I agree that there is no clear cut boundary between brain and body, or any organ for that matter.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 20:08 #359751
Ok, I think this will clarify my perspective for both you guys. I just grabbed a free Scribd account and did a quick skim through the book you recommended, "Philosophy in the Flesh". Where I follow Varela, Thompson, and Rosch is cited on page 94:

More recently, Varela, Thompson, and Rosch have drawn on embodied cognitive science...to explain their "enactive" notion of experience..."First, that cognition depends on the kinds of experience that come from having a body, and second, that these individual sensorimotor capacities are themselves embeddded in a more encompassing biological, psychological, and cultural context" p94

i.e. It is all fine to consider the sensorimotor nexus as the correlate of consciousness, but that nexus itself necessarily operates within a complex context, and that context itself forms part of the framework of consciousness.

So, maybe you don't agree, or go this far, but, yes, this is my own position too.

Serving Zion December 06, 2019 at 20:48 #359765
Reply to Wheatley By naming "the consciousness" it seems you are describing the sense of self - the thoughts I have, my awareness of who I am. Of course my thoughts, as being conscious thoughts, happen in the brain. My thoughts appear to me to be located behind my eyes. But there is more to my consciousness than my thoughts, because also the gut and the heart are contributors to the spirit's sense of ease.
NOS4A2 December 06, 2019 at 21:03 #359770
Reply to Pantagruel

I agree. we’re always situated (I think that’s another term they use) in an environment. Simple notions such as “inside” or “up” would be impossible without both the body and the context within which it exists.

Embodied cognition will probably supersede the computational theory of mind in my opinion. If the Moravec paradox can be applied to humans, a great deal more cognitive resources go into simple movements (like the act of taking a step) than any high-level reasoning. It’s why they can get AI to play chess but getting it to open a door is extremely difficult. Embodied cognition when applied to AI has led to interesting results.
Pantagruel December 06, 2019 at 21:26 #359771
Reply to NOS4A2 Interestingly, I read quite an early book by Paul Churchland called "Neurocomputational Perspective" and he talked about how, if we could come to attain a deep enough understanding of the neurochemical processes of the brain, we might be able to come to have a direct subjective experience of what those processes are doing, in the same way we experience a wavelength of light as "red". It was an interesting direction to take neurocomputation for sure.
Enrique December 06, 2019 at 21:31 #359774
Reply to Pantagruel

...the frogs eye was essentially just part of its brain


Has anyone proposed a biological mechanism for how a function such as vision integrates with the rest of the brain? Many neuroscientists claim that the eye-related brain processes of an organism such as a frog are merely an automatic stimulus/response system, but this is almost ridiculous in the context of common sense observation. The activity of a sense organ such as the eye has got to be a sensory abbreviation for the sake of greater efficiency within very specific conditions, such as the quick reflexes required for predation or some kinds of precarious balancing, not at all a primary cause of motivity or even perception in general.

What is the relationship between incoming and outgoing brain processes, and are all outgoing brain processes what we could regard as "conscious awareness"? If so, any theories of how awareness integrates with the holistic consciousness phenomenon, and what makes awareness graduate to self-awareness?

These inquiries might be unanswerable at this stage of science, but worth some thought at least.
I like sushi December 06, 2019 at 23:46 #359804
Reply to Pantagruel Iron lungs, heart transplants and such demonstrate the case well enough for me.

Reply to ovdtogt I don’t confuse the two.

I don’t think there is a discussion to be had here so I’ll bow out unless the OP has something to say.
ovdtogt December 07, 2019 at 00:48 #359819
Quoting I like sushi
?ovdtogt I don’t confuse the two.


cryptic
RegularGuy February 09, 2020 at 08:24 #380513
Quoting Wheatley
I think it is, mind and brain are intimately connected, and where else would it be located?


It has been said that the gut is the second brain. Consciousness occurs in at least some living creatures. Why couldn’t it pervade the universe? What you call cognitive science might not be all that there is. You might say science explains everything. I might say that science is a method to try to explain things. It’s a paradigm. Why am I wrong in saying that consciousness orders the universe giving us the laws of nature? How do you explain where the order comes from? How do you explain that the universe is at all explainable?
Wheatley February 09, 2020 at 08:28 #380516
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
Why couldn’t it pervade the universe?

As far as we know conscious awareness is a biological phenomenon. Its function is to help creatures react to their environment.
RegularGuy February 09, 2020 at 08:33 #380519
Quoting Wheatley
As far as we know conscious awareness is a biological phenomenon. Its function is to help creatures react to their environment.


That’s metaphysics.
Wheatley February 09, 2020 at 08:37 #380522
RegularGuy February 09, 2020 at 08:37 #380523
Quoting Wheatley
You sure?


Absolutely.
Wheatley February 09, 2020 at 08:38 #380524
Qwex February 09, 2020 at 12:52 #380596
Consciousness is located in the brain, but it's not all about it's locale. The heart puts consciousness in that position.

I've held this belief for a long time, anyone care to change my mind?
Zelebg February 09, 2020 at 16:15 #380647
Reply to Wheatley
Is consciousness located in the brain?


Consciousness is located in the whole body like a computer program is located all over computer’s integrated components, connecting wires and peripherals it uses. Obviously some parts are more relevant than others, like hand / mouse vs. brain / cpu.

However, you could say that a computer program is really only actualised on the display screen, for example, and that it is the display then where a program is actually located. And that would be more in line with asking “where is visual qualia located in the brain”, that I think is better, more specific question, which includes more interesting questions such as how is it visual qualia arranged in the brain-space, how big are individual pixels, and what are the colors represented with.
Marchesk February 09, 2020 at 16:34 #380650
Quoting Bitter Crank
Some people are bothered by consciousness not having a location in the atlas of the brain. It doesn't bother me. I'm just glad it's there.


The only thing that bothers me about consciousness is that I just can't turn it off when I want to. If I could go p-zombie mode for undesirable situations, that would be nice.
IvoryBlackBishop February 10, 2020 at 09:50 #380992
I've heard some suggest that the brain is a "receiver" of consciousness rather than a "generator".