Petitionary Prayer
It can be hard to see how human prayers could affect what God does. For one, God, perhaps, would be unchanging and unaffected by anything other than himself. Secondly, God would be infinitely knowledgeable and, thus, already aware of our needs. And he would be infinitely benevolent and powerful, too; so he would already have the will and ability to make the world as good as it could be overall.
One might suggest that in making petitionary prayers where you asked God for something, he might
give it to you so as to reinforce your relationship with him. One of God’s aims would always be to make the world as good as possible overall. And part of what would make the world better are human relationships with God because such relationships would be a great good, such that their existence would add value to the world. So God would want to cultivate such relationships. One way for God to reinforce our relationship with him when we’d initiated it would be to give us what we asked for. Blessing us that way would incentivize us to continue to seek a relationship with God. If that’s why God would give us what we asked for, then whether he gave it to us would depend almost strictly on whether we had initiated a relationship with God.
But a couple of things seem off about this. One, it does not seem to be that giving us anything we ask for is what God would do. Rather, it seems like God would give us only the things we ask for which are in accordance with the overall good of the world. But if that is so, why would God need a petitionary prayer from someone in order to initiate those things? Wouldn't God do what is in accordance with the overall good no matter what? It seems that that would necessarily be his will. So wouldn't the only adequate petitionary prayer be something like 'Your will be done'? Second, if God's will is to bring about the overall good, it just seems lucky if you happened to pray for the right thing. If this is correct, and the view above is correct, then one's relationship with God would seem to be based on luck. For one who just happened to pray for a specific thing that God already wills to do, he or she would see their petition "fulfilled" and be on track for a relationship with God based on chance. It does not seem like there are cases where God wouldn't have given you something you asked for if you hadn't initiated a relationship with him. It seems too strange to say that a human would affect God in this way. God knows what you want because he is omniscient. God can make that happen because he is omnipotent. And God would create an overall good world in which God would cultivate relationships with its inhabitants because he is omnibenevolent. Additionally, if God knows that giving you want you want (so long as it is in accordance with his will) will help cultivate a relationship with you, then he will give you want you want without you praying for it.
1. God necessarily acts to bring about overall good in the world.
2. Part of what brings about overall good in the world are human relationships with God.
3. God will necessarily cultivate relationships with humans.
4. God knows everything that everyone wants whether they pray for it or not.
5. God giving one what they want helps them cultivate a relationship with him.
6. IFF what one wants aligns with the overall good of the world, God will necessarily give one what they want.
7. Therefore, IFF what one wants aligns with the overall good of the world, God will give one what they want whether or not they pray for it.
One might suggest that in making petitionary prayers where you asked God for something, he might
give it to you so as to reinforce your relationship with him. One of God’s aims would always be to make the world as good as possible overall. And part of what would make the world better are human relationships with God because such relationships would be a great good, such that their existence would add value to the world. So God would want to cultivate such relationships. One way for God to reinforce our relationship with him when we’d initiated it would be to give us what we asked for. Blessing us that way would incentivize us to continue to seek a relationship with God. If that’s why God would give us what we asked for, then whether he gave it to us would depend almost strictly on whether we had initiated a relationship with God.
But a couple of things seem off about this. One, it does not seem to be that giving us anything we ask for is what God would do. Rather, it seems like God would give us only the things we ask for which are in accordance with the overall good of the world. But if that is so, why would God need a petitionary prayer from someone in order to initiate those things? Wouldn't God do what is in accordance with the overall good no matter what? It seems that that would necessarily be his will. So wouldn't the only adequate petitionary prayer be something like 'Your will be done'? Second, if God's will is to bring about the overall good, it just seems lucky if you happened to pray for the right thing. If this is correct, and the view above is correct, then one's relationship with God would seem to be based on luck. For one who just happened to pray for a specific thing that God already wills to do, he or she would see their petition "fulfilled" and be on track for a relationship with God based on chance. It does not seem like there are cases where God wouldn't have given you something you asked for if you hadn't initiated a relationship with him. It seems too strange to say that a human would affect God in this way. God knows what you want because he is omniscient. God can make that happen because he is omnipotent. And God would create an overall good world in which God would cultivate relationships with its inhabitants because he is omnibenevolent. Additionally, if God knows that giving you want you want (so long as it is in accordance with his will) will help cultivate a relationship with you, then he will give you want you want without you praying for it.
1. God necessarily acts to bring about overall good in the world.
2. Part of what brings about overall good in the world are human relationships with God.
3. God will necessarily cultivate relationships with humans.
4. God knows everything that everyone wants whether they pray for it or not.
5. God giving one what they want helps them cultivate a relationship with him.
6. IFF what one wants aligns with the overall good of the world, God will necessarily give one what they want.
7. Therefore, IFF what one wants aligns with the overall good of the world, God will give one what they want whether or not they pray for it.
Comments (27)
8. Therefore prayer is useless. God only answers the prayers for things he was going to do anyway, and only to those who already have a relationship with god would pray, leaving the only remaining reason to answer the prayer (cultivating that relationship) not applicable.
:roll:
We plan, God laughs.
[quote=Jimbo the Lizard King]When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer.
Petition the lord with prayer.
Petition the lord with prayer.
You cannot petition the lord with prayer![/quote]
The monk bought lunch, baby. :wink:
[quote=By the way, which one's Pink?]Far away, across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic
spell[/quote]
Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending ... but why? :confused:
[quote=Rollin' down Rodeo ...]Turn on the radio, nah fuck it turn it off
Fear is your only god on the radio
Nah fuck it, turn it off
Turn it off, turn on the radio, nah fuck it turn it off
Fear is your only god on the radio
Nah fuck it, your saviour's my guillotine, crosses and kerosene[/quote]
'Cause ya know why all the world's jails and churches, don't ya? :brow:
[quote=Stevland Morris]When you believe in things
that you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
superstition ain't The Way ...[/quote]
... or like another (older, better) "good book" says:
The Way that can be spoken is not the eternal Way
:death: :flower:
When you pray, does god respond with confirmation or commands? In what way does he do that exactly? (A voice? A feeling he creates in you?)
So prayer is just thinking about god, essentially?
Interesting. How do you know god has anything to do with it? It sounds like its your own thoughts that are helping, an act of meditation.
I understand, thanks.
I hope that's not too harsh
Quoting DingoJones. Wrong...
It is not meant to affect what God does. It is meant to effect what you do.
You bring up a few interesting points.
For one, you ask, “Why would God need a petitionary prayer from someone in order to initiate those things we ask for which are in accordance with the overall good of the world?”
In response, I’d like to raise this question: what if petitionary prayer actually does serve as the turning factor in God deciding to do a certain good, but because of God’s omniscience, he already knew that you would pray for it, even way before you prayed for it, and simultaneously knew that he would grant you your request? Maybe God does grant petitionary prayers sometimes, as a sort of reward for the person who prays them.
And if the person did not pray the petitionary prayer, God wouldn’t necessarily punish them, but he might choose a different type of action that would still result in the same amount of net good that would’ve resulted if the person did ask God for something directly. For example, say that Christian really wants to go to College X. He prays that he is accepted to College X, and as a reward for his petitionary prayer, God grants his request. Christian is accepted into and attends College X. Let’s assign the arbitrary numerical value of 93/100 to denote the net good out of Christian’s experience at College X, in terms of his personal and academic happiness and success. In an alternate situation, Christian really wants to go to College X, but Christian doesn’t pray that he is accepted to College X. Christian isn’t accepted into College X, but he is accepted into College Y. He attends College Y, and this college experience also yields a 93/100 net good. Each of the two situations led to the same amount of net good – God just chose Christian’s preference of good, as a small reward for his petitionary prayer.
It’s important to note that God is omniscient and Christian has free will. Christian still has the free choice to decide where he wants to go to college, and he freely decides if he prays about it. But because God knows about Christian’s petitionary prayer in advance, he knows what he will decide in advance. If Christian changes his opinion last minute and decides not to pray, well then God already knew about that too. So just because God knew what Christian would do does not mean he chose what Christian would do.
In a different light – even if this answer above does not work, and God doesn’t need petitionary prayer at all in order to give him permission, so to speak, to initiate certain things – what if petitionary prayer has functions outside of just asking for something?
Maybe God’s intention with petitionary prayer is to grow his relationship with his followers – not in the sense that he grants them what they wish for, so their relationship grows in that way. But in the sense that he wants Christians to feel like time spent in prayer is time well spent, regardless of the type of prayer, because they are talking to God and partaking in fellowship with him. Maybe God’s chief purpose of petitionary prayer is to actually reveal things to the person praying – to give them insight or ideas about what they should do, or how to handle a certain situation.
In this way, petitionary prayer would have a valuable function outside of just influencing God to take action.
Hope these thoughts make sense. I’d be curious to hear your response.
:chin: :up:
What about people praying for world peace or a cure for cancer or the like. These are unequivocally aligned with the overall good of the world and yet remain unrealized even to this day despite the earnest prayers of millions.
If anything this brings to light how, everything considered, improbable it is that god will answer prayers for personal benefit.
However, there's the issue of how distinct the individual is from the world. Isn't the world just made up of individuals? Doesn't the happiness of each individual, however that maybe achieved, constitute what you call the overall good? If yes, then god should answer our prayers whether it was for a brand new TV or world peace. If no, then that would mean the overall good is not the same as individual happiness which seems odd because the world to which the overall good applies to doesn't and can't experience the good or bad except in terms of the individual human beings that constitute it.
I guess I'm saying the overall good doesn't make sense if it's contrasted to the individual good in a way that tries to prove that only prayers for the overall good will be/should be answered to by god. It's like someone saying I'll help the Jedi but not Luke Skywalker or Yoda or Mace Windu. Sorry for the poor analogy but it gets the point across.
The best I can think of is some form of 'tough love' - that life's harsh experiences actually combine to make us better people in the long run.
So we all have to get our fair share of pain on this earth, else we won't appreciate heaven.
That depends on how the human mind works. It doesn't have to be that way (if there were a God, he could make people to always just feel good all the time), and it doesn't seem to be that way for all people in the actual world. When I was younger I seemed to be better able to appreciate pleasures than I am now as a traumatized adult who's been through a lot of pain.
One of the laws of common sense that constrain God's actions could be: 'in order to appreciate a maximum, one has to have experienced a minimum'?
Leading to you have to have experienced pain else you won't get full benefit from heaven.
(I knew it :joke: )
Yes, I think Nietzsche correctly noted the difference between the pagan perspective and the Christian perspective, though Dionysus isn't the god I'd appeal to in making the distinction. The pagan view of prayer and in other things is very practical, grounded in our experience of life in the world, not in our rejection of it. Of course one propitiates the gods; any sensible person would.
We no gods, no masters types - "pagan" or otherwise - have never been a "sensible" bunch I guess.
Most of the old pagans probably accepted there were masters wherever there were people. Gods as well, I think. I don't think the existence of God was a subject of much debate, then, except in Athens.