Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?
Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?
God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.
Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.
Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.
Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?
There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.
If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?
Thanks.
Regards
DL
God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.
Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.
Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.
Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?
There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.
If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?
Thanks.
Regards
DL
Comments (65)
Even if the God of the Bible condemning someone to hell forever is just, it is still not necessary for the God of the Bible to do such a thing. The reason is that the Bible claims that God is all powerful, therefore the God of the Bible can resolve any matter without causing any suffering.
I agree. A good god would do the good thing and not the evil thing.
Regards
DL
I do not think that the original poster is trying to prove that the Bible is true. I think the original poster is just wondering if condemning someone to hell forever over somethings is a just punishment.
Sorry buddy. This does not make a lot of sense to me and sounds more like trying to justify what cannot be justified.
Are you suggesting that god's inspiration is so inept or shallow that his scribes cannot get his dictation right?
Would a god who wishes to give us a message not make sure it is well written before sending his draft to the printers?
Regards
DL
You are correct but these questions often end in going in various different side roads.
I am used to theist deflecting whenever morals are under discussion.
They do not want to touch on that issue with a 10 foot pole, which shows the deapth of the hipocracy in some of them.
Daniel. This answer was not intended to include you. I do not know your motivation.
If it does, no apology buddy.
Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop, I hope my motivation is clear to you now and that you also understand why I do not take your question to be a valid question. However, please accept that I respect your right to accept the Bible as a book of truth. I am in favour of religious freedom, find all the major religions of the world fascinating subjects in spite of the fact that I find myself in continuous disagreement with them on many matters. That being said, I remain in a process of being a lifelong student and always try to open myself in this learning process in an attempt to understand them better and gain more insight.
Here's what Thomas Jefferson had to say about it:
“Indeed I tremble for my country when reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever..."
Maybe we should hope not.
I understand your point.
If god is not just, why call him good and just?
As a Canadian who used to respect Americans, I wish real Americans would come back.
It looks like I will have to wait for the next generation to grow up.
I miss my old American friends and hope the U.S. gets well soon.
Regards
DL
Like many Christian beliefs, yes.
The thing is, Yahweh is a genocidal moral monster. Would you drink from his cup?
I would pass real quick.
Regards
DL
I used to participate on a very different forum, The Lycaeum, in the late '90s and early '00s, and I am pretty sure this same guy, under the same handle, was pursuing the same thing there.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
... and he always closes his posts with Regards, DL.
He abandoned that for a while, but old habits die hard.
===================
My take on the original topic: There is no god, so there is no just god or unjust god. Just say no to god.
Absolutely.
Do you like the present mainstream misogynous and homophobic religions and their genocidal slave wanting gods?
I do not and see better options out there.
Should we not all strive to follow the best ideology we can find while trying to mitigate the harm of the mainstream garbage religions?
Regards
DL
Guilty as charged. That particular forum did not last long on my favorite list.
Regards
DL
That I do not recall but then I have a poor memory. Good research.
Regards
DL
Oh yeah? Why not?
I did not find any interesting people to chat with.
I do recall the one guy that was not bad but that was about it. You might have noted that it is not a super active place, if it is still open.
I joined the site to see what they had to say about the insight and apotheosis that some say some drugs produce. I did not find any. Not even anything that was superior to my own apotheosis. At least I could articulate mine while no one there seemed able to articulate theirs.
Regards
DL
It's long gone.
I guess that most had my same opinion.
Long live this place as there are a good number of decent minds here.
Regards
DL
The very odd time, I change a mind from an immoral point of view to a moral point of view.
I help a person gain the most powerful gift that can exist. A better point of view.
All I did was point out the obvious.
Here is a recent conversation.
----------------
Ok...we both know that infanticide is wrong, but what exactly is it about it that is wrong?
wildcat
You just became your Father and ascended to the Judgement seat.
I did not think I would ever see such a rare thing.
You might be one of the chosen of the Gnostic Christian Jesus. He recognizes by your works and deeds and would see that you irrefutably have added gain to your moral sense. You created a paradigm shift in your own mind. Likely now what is a Christ consciousness.
What is wrong with infanticide is covered by the Golden Rule as well as being a commandment in every decent religious and political legal system.
Even as we all ignore it and kill to this point where we are engineering our own extinction.
That human extinction has already begun. Ask any child to confirm this fact.
The immoral are very dim and I am please that you have brightened.
Your new light brings tears to my mind’s eye.
Thank you for the pleasure and pain.
My best regards.
DL
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”
Regards
DL
Nicely done.
Christians should discern the lack of justice justice as well.
Regards
DL
Thanks for this.
Regards
DL
This puts not only the New Testament in an entirely new perspective, but also severely puts to the question the position that Christianity came forth from Judaism.
When Christianity is viewed through this new light, it gives room for entirely different interpretations of heaven and hell.
If you're interested in this matter, I can share the sources with you.
Sure, ones POV will change when one changes ones view of what god is.
Christianity is Judaism 2.0 and Islam is Judaism 3.0. This is undeniable.
I have not seen any Christian denounce Yahweh as a fraud. Have you?
Regards
DL
You said: "Sure, ones POV will change when one changes ones view of what god is."
So I think you answered your own question. The Christian God did not condemn us, we humans condemned him.
After having read much material on the subject, I am no longer sure whether this is true.
If you're interested, there are a number of lectures available on the subject on YouTube.
This is one of them;
What the video suggests is, like I have stated earlier, that the teachings of Jesus were Cynic, thus Hellenistic, in essence, and that much of what is practiced by Christians today in based on what has been added at much later dates and has little to do with Jesus's original teachings. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of the New Testament being of an allegorical nature, rather than a literal one.
I thought the point of acceptance of Jesus as your savior was to avoid eternal condemnation and gain salvation for your sins. It would seem then that you stand condemned but have a path for salvation, such being the whole glory of God giving his son to redeem the sinners.
Of course, being a Christian, you might feel no longer condemned because you've taken the path that you believe leads to all sorts of wonderful outcomes. Me, not as a Christian, and being I suppose condemned to the discomforts of hell, take the view that the Christian god isn't so benevolent.
Yes, I agree to your first point.
The idea of Hell is another Bible translation error. So you're okay!
This is an interesting approach that pervades much of Christian thought (and I suspect many other religions). Because the truth of Christianity is based upon past events, any current attempt to alter the way it is practiced must be justified upon a reinterpretation of past events. . You see these restorative attempts with Protestantism moving from Catholicism and, even in dramatic reinterpretations like Mormonism, they again claim themselves restoring the purer faith, not that they've arrived at a new belief system..
These efforts permit an ever changing interpretation and reinterpretation based upon current ethical standards, but ironically justified upon claims of conservation of the prior true practice.
Just an observation.
Of course you mean far-right Fundamentalist's, no? At least that seems to be the target of your interminable axe to grind... .
Free yourself, become a Christian Existentialist like me! (In layman's terms: Spirituality.)
The whole of the bible is allegory.
I read it as an esoteric ecumenist and see what happens in the bible as what sages want us to think is supposed to happen in all of our minds.
Have a look at the creation painting in the Vatican and note that god is sitting in a representation of the human right hemisphere of our brains.
That thinking is exemplified with these quotes and the thinking behind them.
Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
This is close to the Gnostic Christian thinking as it shows the savior ascending from within us and not descending form outside of us somewhere.
Regards
DL
Christianity was taken allegorically by 2nd-4th Century Christians which is its formative stage.
Fundamentalism came later. Strange, but true.
But see:
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
This means that God is not a prick, nor is he genocidal because we can't take the claims of what he did literally. It is the story you must read, at least according to you, without regard to the literal translation. For that reason, if the Bible claims he killed all sorts of people, he literally did not, so you must decipher the meaning of the allegory.
You are more gentle with your criticism than I.
I no longer mince words and use more of the language used in this quote.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
? Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
[deleted]
Regards
DL
Not to the church's lying preachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
Regards
DL
Sure, but that doesn't make your point, which is that the Bible ought be interpreted in an allegorical way, but it instead inflames and derails the conversation, pitting the insulted believers against the smug non-believers. It's just a waste of time when it phrased this way.
I have passed that stage thanks to my apotheosis. Spirituality is a two sided sword and mine swings both ways while yours only seems to have on cutting side.
Regards
DL
Dude, with all due respect, get over it man.
I understand the danger's of Fundamentalism/literal interpretations of the Bible and have your ear.
But why not take this same anger-energy and make glass-half-full changes, instead of glass-half-empty?
Are you an activist in your community? Have you ever thought of it? How about starting a Church?
God Bless you man, I'm just trying to help... .
I will get over it when the mainstream religions are no longer homophobic and misogynous and stop denying half of the worlds population equality.
You go ahead and ignore that much evil if you like. I will not.
[deleted]
Regards
DL
Are you a Christian? LOL
No. Hell no.
Please do not insult me. [deleted]
Regards
DL
It is slightly more complicated than "all of the Bible is allegory".
One can observe very striking differences between scripture that is attributed to Saint Paul and those scriptures that have been identified as being older; those of Matthew and Luke. Matthew and Luke, containing the teachings of Jesus, bear far more resemblance to wisdom literature than religious scripture. They contain no miracles, no post-resurrection, etc.
The fact that Paul's writings differ so much from earlier writings means that it needs to be looked at most suspiciously, including all that it influenced. Ironically, most of what modern Christianity teaches is Pauline in nature.
So what this could mean, possibly, is that if one wants to understand the actual teachings of Jesus, most of the New Testament can be tossed in the garbage.
Furthermore, it is no secret that parts of Christianity have sought links with Judaism, especially Rome. This could explain the resemblance of the Christian God to the Judaic God. However, if the above may be true, these links are non-existent, and these resemblances are forgeries, later additions made with a different agenda than staying true to Christian teachings.
While I have read much on the topic, I realize I am no expert on this topic. So if you are interested I can provide some links to persons who do a much better job at explaining all of this.
Oh I think I'm understanding now. Are you an angry Atheist?
You show a poor understanding.
The Gnostic Christian ideology is superior to atheism, although they are doing better now that they have started opening atheist churches.
It took atheists long enough to start understanding why religions form in the first place and they have finally started thinking of their children above themselves.
Now if we would all do that in terms of the eco system we are passing down to them. All we are doing is insuring that our children will go extinct or face greater challenges than we have.
Regards
DL
You certainly don't come across that way. My understanding of the Gnostics is that they endorsed Love and Spirituality....
Absolutely.
I try hard to show Christians how to love and express their spirituality by showing them why they should not be homophobic and misogynous not believe that a genocidal god is good.
I hope you have the moral sense to do the same. It is the Christian thing to do even if they have forgotten Jesus' teachings.
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
I love a lot and that brings out my hate against the misguided causes of Christian hate.
Regards
DL
I don't remember seeing any love in any of your posts, just bitter hatred against not just religion and religious institutions, but religious people. I've tried to make it clear how repellent I think that is.
Most religions and lying preachers star from that point, I agree. Unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways is what I hear.
Then the same lying preachers start rhyming off what they know of the unknowable, fathom of the unfathomable and can somehow take the mystery out of god.
Obviously all the preachers for the supernatural gods are lying preachers.
Right?
Regards
DL
You wrote that you "love a lot." I just commented that I have not seen evidence of that in your time here on the forum.
I think that the quoted statement is a sign of hatred and intolerance of a class of people based on your personal prejudice. Most legal and moral classifications of discriminatory behavior include specific reference to discrimination of people on the basis of religion. I think the fact that the forum does not include that in its guidelines is a sign of the prejudice against religion and religious people that many people here feel. I also think it is wrong.
Do you see anything wrong or inaccurate in the following. Sure, some of it is pure opinion, but I can back it up all you want.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
Yes, that's how I was able to highlight the problem with the kind of questions you're asking with that analogy.
Do you?
Perhaps you just are not looking the right way.
Love gives birth to hate.
Where does hate come from if not born of love?
Regards
DL
Absolutely and I proudly plead guilty as charged.
If you think it moral to tolerate those who do not tolerate gays, women and other religions as equal, and refuse to grant all equality, then you are showing a corrupted moral sense.
Give this a listen if you have the time.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zqvjy
Regards
DL