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Homo suicidus

TheMadFool September 07, 2019 at 07:55 7100 views 24 comments
Humans are defined as rational animals. I believe homo sapiens means rational ape. This definition, on first pass, looks accurate. I mean rationality, as an ability, seems to have reached its peak in the human form.

However, quite surprisingly, this definition is not as good as it sounds. Animals are perfectly capable of rational thought. They wouldn't survive if they were NOT rational.

Looks like I'm saying the definition is too broad, including more than it should. Owls are rational for example and we do say "as wise as an owl"

So, I would like to know if the definition can be improved or even perfected.

Personally I think one only-human ability is symbolic thinking. No other animal is capable of it except for chimpanzees/dolphins/etc. This ability too is unable to make the distinction between humans and animals.

How about suicide? I'm quite serious about this. Suicide hasn't been observed in non-human animals as far as I know. We could define humans as homo suicidus. This is surely the best definition of humans.

Comments (24)

uncanni September 07, 2019 at 13:32 #325541
Quoting TheMadFool
Humans are defined as rational animals.


But how much of the time are they irrationally driven by emotions both conscious and repressed? I think the rational capacity of our species is over-rated. In fact, I'd define rational more along the lines of ability to survive and guarantee the survival of one's species, and we're not doing well at all in that capacity.
Shamshir September 07, 2019 at 14:11 #325568
Quoting TheMadFool
Suicide hasn't been observed in non-human animals as far as I know.

What of the insects?
Daniel C September 07, 2019 at 14:37 #325580
We are rational and so are other animals. But, there is something special about human rationality which make us distinct from all other living creatures. Our consciousness is structured in such a way that we are in a position where we are "present to ourselves": this "presence to ourselves" enables us to be conscious of ourselves as selves, creating in this process an "Id / ego / I. The very fact of this discussion taking place, is proof of this: without being conscious of my consciousness "I" will not be present to write this comment resulting in no comment from me or from anybody else. To reflect, is to be on a specific cognitive level, but to reflect on reflection is to be on a completely different level, much more advanced than the previous one.Only humans are capable of doing this! (My dog will not be able to participate in this discussion despite his "high intelligence".) My Latin is weak, but an attempt to name us in our distinctiveness will be something like: "homo sapiens ego".
BrianW September 07, 2019 at 15:16 #325589
Quoting TheMadFool
So, I would like to know if the definition can be improved or even perfected.


How about homo intellect (or whatever the latin for intellect is). There is an idea that intellect is the capacity to 'know that you know'. It's not just about awareness or thinking, but also recognising the awareness or thoughts. For example, an animal can apply rationale to some degree (I have cats and I have seen it happen), but they can't know what rationale is. So, probably, they can think (make certain considerations) but they can't think about or reflect on those thoughts. And I think it also applies to animals which can mimic human expressions.
Hanover September 07, 2019 at 15:43 #325594
Animal suicide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide
TheMadFool September 07, 2019 at 15:48 #325597
Quoting Shamshir
What of the insects?


Suicide in insects or rationality in insects? Tou probably mean the latter. I think insects are capable of simple logic bu which I mean we might find it relatively easy to program a robot to mimic an insect. Insects are simple logic machines.
TheMadFool September 07, 2019 at 15:52 #325600
Quoting Hanover
Animal suicide


Thanks for the link. It appears that the cases of non-human suicide are caused by parasitic brain infections. The believable stories are anecdotal so dubious.
TheMadFool September 07, 2019 at 15:55 #325601
Reply to Daniel C Reply to BrianW Your definition based on self-awareness is a good one but I think some apes pass the mirror test

petrichor September 07, 2019 at 16:20 #325604
Quoting TheMadFool
Animals are perfectly capable of rational thought. They wouldn't survive if they were NOT rational.


What do you understand rational to mean? The understanding I have of the word makes me surprised that you would say this. Clams survive, and they are certainly not rational in any sense that I understand the word. They don't even have a central nervous system! Could their behavior be said to be rational? In other words, would a rational agent in their circumstances act as they do? Perhaps! But evolutionary forces may simply have selected for behavior that serves their survival interests. It likely has nothing to do with rationality on the part of the clam itself.
Daniel C September 07, 2019 at 16:59 #325613
TheMadFool. If so, why is it that I don't find any contribution on this forum written by an animal? If you are right, there must be at least one or even a few, written say by chimpanzees. Or, is it perhaps a matter that these animals are simply not interested in these human discussions and have decided not to participate? Can't help to wonder, or is there something else that I am missing?
Mww September 07, 2019 at 17:34 #325626
Anthropomorphism......science being pretentious because a human told it to.
Shamshir September 07, 2019 at 18:11 #325652
Sunnyside September 07, 2019 at 19:07 #325683
Reply to TheMadFool How should we recategorize humans to more accurately reflect our nature? Is suicide relevant to this recategorization? What seems to set us apart is an increased capacity for reasoning, homo intell?ctus would fit the bill. Suicide? Really? Oh, wait...the nuclear bombs....
BrianW September 07, 2019 at 19:20 #325688
Quoting TheMadFool
Your definition based on self-awareness is a good one but I think some apes pass the mirror test


Ok. Then, the only real difference left that I can note would be that humans can reflect without the impetus of an external influence, kind of like meditation. Our defining factor would be that we can interact through abstract forms, e.g. ideas, ideals, etc. So, that would make us something like homo philosophicus :grin: - I know, it's like there's a joke in there somewhere.
New2K2 September 07, 2019 at 19:47 #325699
I was thinking over this and I came to the conclusion that the two defining characteristics of Humanity is our absolute Dissatisfaction and the passive fear and understanding of death
180 Proof September 07, 2019 at 21:12 #325726
"Homo suicidus"?

I think our species' uniquely distinctive characteristic - functional defect - is Stupidity, that is, the path-of-least-cognitive-effort reflex of

(a) answering the wrong questions or
(b) solving pseudo-problems or
(c) pretending to know what isn't - can't now/ever be - known or
(d) pretending not to know what is demonstrably - even ineluctably - known or
(e) playing lose-lose games "to win" (e.g. scapegoat violence) or
(f) (other yet-to-be-defined varieties of oblivious self-sabotage ...)
(g) some combination of (a thru f)

- perhaps as a spandrel of language-instinct/use (i.e. discursive rationality). "Suicide", as has been pointed out, is clearly a more common - natural - occurrence across many species than the 'human, all too human' meta-cognitive vice of Stupidity (i.e. folly); so it seems to me more proper, or precise, - and honest - to define our species as homo insapiens instead.

And if so, what use to ourselves (or, charitably, as exemplars) are 'we philosophers' if, fundamentally, we're not ironic fools committed (via reflective study & creative critiques) to life-long withdrawal & recovery from folly ... i.e. to be a gadfly or a Gump? - that's the (right?) question, or so it seems. Or maybe this quixotic 'fixation' expresses - exposes - nothing more than my own peculiar folly ...
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 00:54 #325796
Quoting petrichor
What do you understand rational to mean? The understanding I have of the word makes me surprised that you would say this. Clams survive, and they are certainly not rational in any sense that I understand the word. They don't even have a central nervous system! Could their behavior be said to be rational? In other words, would a rational agent in their circumstances act as they do? Perhaps! But evolutionary forces may simply have selected for behavior that serves their survival interests. It likely has nothing to do with rationality on the part of the clam itself.


The rationality of clams may not be so obvious as that of an ape but that doesn't matter. Apes are rational and if we define humans as "homo sapiens" then apes are included in that definition. That's a bad definition.
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 00:58 #325797
Quoting Daniel C
TheMadFool. If so, why is it that I don't find any contribution on this forum written by an animal? If you are right, there must be at least one or even a few, written say by chimpanzees. Or, is it perhaps a matter that these animals are simply not interested in these human discussions and have decided not to participate? Can't help to wonder, or is there something else that I am missing


Again the word "rational" includes animals like apes and dolphins, etc. It may be that language ability has peaked in humans but notice I say "peaked" because whales and birds vocalize too. Isn't that language too? Basically, using an ability that has developed maximally in humans can't be used as part of the definition because the definition is not as exclusive as required.
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 01:04 #325803
Quoting BrianW
Ok. Then, the only real difference left that I can note would be that humans can reflect without the impetus of an external influence, kind of like meditation. Our defining factor would be that we can interact through abstract forms, e.g. ideas, ideals, etc. So, that would make us something like homo philosophicus :grin: - I know, it's like there's a joke in there somewhere.


I think we shouldn't use any characteristic that is supposedly highly developed in humans but still present, to some degree, in others. Cheetahs are the fastest land mammals but we don't define cheetahs as Acinonys "fasticus"
Changeling September 08, 2019 at 01:05 #325805
I remember someone on here a while ago said that suicide is what sets us apart from the beasts in that it's the ultimate freedom of our existence - that we can end it if we so choose. They also said not to do it and worded all this better than me
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 01:18 #325810
Quoting Evil
ultimate freedom of our existence - that we can end it if we so choose.


I'd like to say "that's beautiful" but that would downplaying the suffering of the many who've ended their lives, unable to face pain.
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 01:19 #325812
Quoting Shamshir
Both


Where have insects committed suicide?
Changeling September 08, 2019 at 01:45 #325824
Quoting TheMadFool
unable to face pain.


Do you know what the pain is? A friend killed herself 2 nights ago and I don't know what to make of it..
TheMadFool September 08, 2019 at 03:15 #325834
Quoting 180 Proof
"Homo suicidus"?

I think our species' uniquely distinctive characteristic - functional defect - is Stupidity, that is, the path-of-least-effort reflex of

(a) answering the wrong questions or
(b) solving pseudo-problems or
(c) pretending to know what isn't - can't now/ever be - known or
(d) pretending not to know what is demonstrably - even ineluctably - known or
(e) playing lose-lose games "to win" (e.g. scapegoat violence) or
(f) (other yet-to-be-defined varieties of oblivious self-sabotage ...) or
(g) in a given instance some combination of (a thru f)

- perhaps as a spandrel of language-instinct/use (i.e. discursive rationality). "Suicide", as has been pointed out, is clearly a more common - natural - occurence across many species than the 'human, all too human' meta-cognitive vice of Stupidity (i.e. folly); so it seems to me more proper, or precise, - and honest - to define our species as homo insapiens instead.

And if so, what use to ourselves (or, charitably, as exemplars) are 'we philosophers' if, fundamentally, we're not ironic fools committed (via reflective study & creative critiques) to life-long withdrawal & recovery from folly ... i.e. to be a gadfly or a Gump? - that's the (right?) question, or so it seems. Or maybe this quixotic 'fixation' expresses - exposes - nothing more than my own peculiar folly ...


Yes, I think that's a better name for humans. Humans, being rational and yet, "exclusively" capable of stupidity, must stand out from the rest. How ironic that is since we've used our brains to discover that we actually don't have brains.