Is god a coward? Why does god fear to show himself?
Is god a coward? Why does god fear to show himself?
Our gods do not speak to us. Ever wonder why not?
God cannot even speak or reproduce without a human female and is definitely not an all-powerful being.
To be relevant to theist, god must be real. The only way to date that that reality can be confirmed is contact at the consciousness level, yet those who claim that never offer anything worth listening to.
Billions now seek that mental touch daily; yet all go wanting. All while those who lie about god, all the preachers who preach of a supernatural god, get the cash from their sheeple.
If gods are the cowards they seem to be, as they remain absent, never showing their supernatural presence, or even communicating with us, --- then why call those cowards gods.
Why do we create or even acknowledge such cowardly absentee and inferior demiurge gods?
Cowardly, silent absentee gods are not worthy gods. They are useless to us.
Do you agree?
Regards
DL
Our gods do not speak to us. Ever wonder why not?
God cannot even speak or reproduce without a human female and is definitely not an all-powerful being.
To be relevant to theist, god must be real. The only way to date that that reality can be confirmed is contact at the consciousness level, yet those who claim that never offer anything worth listening to.
Billions now seek that mental touch daily; yet all go wanting. All while those who lie about god, all the preachers who preach of a supernatural god, get the cash from their sheeple.
If gods are the cowards they seem to be, as they remain absent, never showing their supernatural presence, or even communicating with us, --- then why call those cowards gods.
Why do we create or even acknowledge such cowardly absentee and inferior demiurge gods?
Cowardly, silent absentee gods are not worthy gods. They are useless to us.
Do you agree?
Regards
DL
Comments (212)
Before anyone can make these claims, they must prove the existence of these gods.
Otherwise they are giving credence to the believers' ideas they are trying to demolish.
Hard to quote Gnostics when they believe in many odd things.
Other deists (like you) base their own idiosyncractic rationale on attacking more conventional believers.
Why don't you just admit that without convention to kick against you would have nothing to say ?
The atheist merely smiles at this game and brings to mind the adage 'garbage in..garbage out' !
I suggest it is that is your fear of the collapse of your house of cards which drives you !
I tend to agree concerning this poster. Not only is he engaged in an exercise that produces no fruit, but also he is annoying and insufferable.
That's a possible interpretation. The latter question assumes that if there is a God, then the reason God is not experienced by those God is not experienced by is that God is afraid. How do you know this must be the case?
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Presumably you mean Mary and Jesus,here. So this is about Christianity. How do you know that is the only way God can do it? God did that, in the NT. Did I miss the part where it says that is the only way? Perhaps the idea was to go through the experience of being a human, which includes, then, the womb and the birth and, well, the mother. I don't know. How do you know the Bible means God could only do it that way?Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopThey offer a set of practices, ones that often lead to experiences that practitioners consider to be of God. Some Christians would argue that to be successful takes great time and effort. Some even spend a lot of time in retreat, in silence, in regular prayer and service and contemplation. This seems effective to many of those people. Have you tried that?Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopThey all lie? How do you know that? That seems extremely unlikely to me. I think many preachers are sincere, even if I do not share their beliefs. Here you say they all are lying. How do you know that? There are also preachers who do not take money from the people they preach to. Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopIt seems like people find use in their experiences and appreciate them. Not all, but many.
Nicely said.
I have noted that, yes.
Regards
DL
Not when one is just analyzing a myth.
Regards
DL
I appreciate that given all the lies that the inquisitors put out there to justify their many inquisitions.
Best to ask a modern Gnostic Christians what his beliefs are because Gnostic Christianity is a perpetual seeking religion that has evolved along with man's moral thinking.
For instance, we see the worth of modern secular law as compared to the barbaric laws that Christians and Muslims would enact if given the power.
What odd thing did you have in mind.
If it lacks logic and reason or is supernatural, it is likely a lie. We hold no supernatural beliefs.
Regards
DL
I suggest you read this if you are going to reply to me or you will like my next reply even less.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt
Regards
DL
Perfect.
Regards
DL
That is not what I do you lying piece of human garbage.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
I do as much as I can against the evil mainstream religions on that front and only bring Gnostic Christianity in on occasion.
If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”
Regards
DL
1. For confirming your own smallmindedness by anthropomorphising 'God' by assigning the human trait of cowardice.
2. For underscoring the maxim that 'abuse is the language of the inarticulate'.
I conclude that your faith in your own mythology must be pretty shaky to risk being so easily demolished by a mere atheist like me ! :naughty:
Fear is a component or analogous to insecurity. Have you read the Ten Commandments.
Did you note the insecurity/fear?
Quoting Coben
If god could reproduce true or some other way, I cannot see him, as a member of one species, using bestiality to reproduce. Especially given that the last time the sons of god used the earth as a brothel, god got quite upset and used genocide against his own grandchildren.
The Christian myth does get too stupid for words sometimes eh?
Quoting Coben
Sure. Such are common, but what they are finding is not a genocidal and infanticidal god. No one in their right mind would seek such a prick of a god.
I think I just said something about Christians and Muslims here.
Quoting Coben
Yes, and was rewarded with my apotheosis.
Quoting Coben
If so, how is the supernatural realm accessed?
You might have forgotten that The Abrahamic god has historically been said from the start to be unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways.
That is what preachers begin with, then tell us all the know of the unknowable and fathom of the unfathomable. What could their words be but lies?
Quoting Coben
Indeed. as shown with inquisitions and jihads.
Regards
DL
All actions are physical, and god is non-physical. So he can't do anything. Which means he can't show himself.
I agree that belief in such would be stupid.
I hope you can agree that it is our duty to others to try to kill all such beliefs in those who use them for evil reasons.
I gave fresco the following above. Here again if you missed it.
If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”
Regards
DL
Only children, those with over inflated egos and ass holes take a win they have not earned or would gloat over it.
Regards
DL
Then if he is not all powerful the way god is described, why call such an inferior creature god?
You also just denied gods ability to reproduce, as Mary, a woman he coveted, is also a part of the physical.
Regards
DL
...and you think this is a viable subject for a philosophy forum ? :wink:
I had no particular historic event in mind and did not think philosophy restricted itself to only certain topics.
Apotheosis is analogue to finding Jung and Freud's Father Complex in me, having experienced it, and it would surprise me if philosophy ran from discussing that.
Regards
DL
Seems he can't, but if Christians want to believe it then they would say yes to the question ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnbfuAcCqpY
Regards
DL
If he did, nobody wouldn't have to have any faith as the issue simply wouldn't be about faith and religion anymore.
And anyway, what the hell would he say to us?
Is Gnostic Christian Bishop a coward? Why does he fear to get out of his mother's apartment? (Just a joke, no offense Bishop.)
You love their genocidal son murdering god and how Christianity is homophobic and misogynous and do a lot of harm. OK. I get it you immoral piece of human garbage.
Regards
DL
Look at our eco system and what god would say to us becomes a lot easier to see.
As to faith. What good is faith, and are you aware that our definition today bears almost no resemblance to what the word faith originally meant?
I do not mind the old definition but wrote this for todays definition.
Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.
Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.
The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]
How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?
Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.
Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.
Regards
DL
This is only the latest thread where he pretends to have a premiss, always some regurgitated attack on religion, and then just ignores everyone and spouts off the same fucking thing over and over that he’s been saying in his previous thread.
Isnt that against the proselytise rules?
I won't be assisting your self reinforcement exercises further.
Both seek to find the best rules and laws to live by.
They are both ideologies or thinking systems and to me, feed off of each other.
If you are not esoteric ecumenist and naturalist enough to not care where you find the best rules and laws to live by then you have an inferior mind.
Regards
DL
Indeed.
Thanks for this.
Do what you can to make it sooner as they are still hurting many.
Regards
DL
Yes, I do, but some are so taken by the idea that I'll have to wait for them to die. The younger generation seems more amenable to change.
The Great Flood is particularly ugly.
:lol:
I'm not exactly a fan of Christianity, but you take the biscuit. Your title questions are purely hypothetical, rendering the discussion of little significance.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? (Angels don't exist!).
But pinheads do!! :wink:
Dang...I thought the entire gnostic religion was playing off sarcasm...kind of like certain versions of satanism. And it made perfect sense as sarcasm...now I don't think I get it.
In the past, I would have seen a comment like the following as having missed the point:
Quoting Sir2u
I would have said, no actually the gnostic is atheist, hence the sarcastic "is god a coward?"
The original gnostics had like a good and bad god (I think demiurge was the bad one?) or something right?
So what do you actually believe - in the very basic sense - god or no? - if yes, what powers does your god have? Are there more than 1 gods?
hahaha, seems plausible
Having trolled this forum and getting the inevitable heckling, the 'Bishop' is now trolling Able2Know as the pompous 'Greatest I Am', preaching exactly the same parasitic drivel. As with all trolls, his infantile attention seeking needs the oxygen of responses irrespective of whether they are positive or negative.
Unfortunately, the 'Bishop', who admits elsewhere to being a 'business dropout' has scratched around looking for an attractive esoteric cult to give 'meaning' to his existence. It's a pity he has not heeded Gurdjieff (one of the mystics he encountered) who pointed out that attempts to convert others would fall on deaf ears !
I can imagine interpreting some of the commandments that way. But I see nothing there that demonstrates that God is hiding, even if it were the only possible interpretation that the commandments show insecurity. It seems to me you are making an assumption. Let's say you are correct: the ten commandments show that God has insecurity, you are still making an assumption that God is not showing himself to us becuase of that. Like if you had a fear of flying it means that you are not married because you are afraid of women. And that's accepting that the 10 commandments show and insecure God...there's still a leap.Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopWell, you've added a lot of interpretations to various parts of the phenomenon in question. It all seems very speculative to me. But I believe you when you say that you 'cannot see him' doing it differently. That this is your take on what must be the case. I don't think it's a grounded take, however.Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopOK, you just shifted topic. I was referring to you saying they offered nothing to confirm that reality. I mentioned practices as a way people can confirm, potentially, that reality. IOW people follow the practices and decide that it has been confirmed. Here you are talking about your dislike of Yahweh, which is another subject. I don't disagree with you on that one, but it's a different issue.Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopYou tried Christian practices and experienced elevation to divine status?Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopI don't think 'that's what preachers begin with'. For example many begin with the divinity of Jesus. Further every preacher or Christian I have ever encountered believes that certain things about God are knowable and this is a working assumption in the Scriptures which purport to give information about that God. That God goes beyond that knowledge, that humans cannot know God completely, that God cannot be fully grasped, sure, that idea generally comes up or is implicit. But the OT begins by giving us information about God's actions and even his own reaction to what he created. It is clear that some things can be known about God in the Chrisitan belief system. You mentioned the 10 commandments, this is one amongst hundreds of chunks of information give about God.
Again, to say people are lying, is to assume 1) they are saying things that are untrue and 2) they know this and are choosing to say things they think are false.
I think it would show an incredibly poor read of other people to think all preachers are lying or even most.Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
This response would make sense if the issue had been 'is their belief good?' or 'does their belief lead to only positive things or mostly positive things.' It makes no sense in context.Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
This is what I was responding to. You used the word 'us'. This means the God there in the Bible, that idea of God, is of no use to anyone. Here in context us talking about what people can or cannot confirm for themselves via practices and what experiences these might lead to.
I can agree with the horrors that certain religious beliefs can lead to. And still disagree with the other point. IOW you jumped to another issue.
I didn't find your responses to be respectful to my points. You seem to have an ax to grind. Fine, I likely share many of your cricitisms of the Abrahamic religions.
But this is a philosophy forum, not a place to pass off propaganda as reasoning.
I'll leave you to others.
Yes. The education system is at least getting that part right.
Our children are not nearly the racists or bigots of past generations.
Regards
DL
Try reality and Gnosis and what can be known. Somewhat like Buddhism and other religions that put man above god thanks to knowing that all gods are man made.
Quoting ZhouBoTong
Gnosis, Gnostic, root word for agnostic.
Need I say more?
Quoting ZhouBoTong
The demiurge is Yahweh, Allah and all supernatural gods, basically.
Those are a part of how we wrote our myths.
We do not read our myths literally.
That is the great lie that people cannot get past because they see the Christian part of our label and thing we believe in the supernatural like the less intelligent literalists of Christianity do.
I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.
https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."
Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D
Regards
DL
Man is god and we are legion.
The gods or ideal for every species is one of their own. This is irrefutable.
Regards
DL
You are as lying piece of human garbage.
Get the quote ass hole or be seen for the liar you are.
Regards
DL
P.S. If you are going to be one of my groupies, I have a list of where I post if you want to really keep tracking me with your great interest.
Gnostic is to agnostic as theism is to atheism. :brow:
Then look at the rest of reality. If not here, he is hiding.
Quoting Coben
An educated guess that I can form arguments for. Quite the difference.
Quoting Coben
Yes, but if you wish to argue for your view and not just my methods, go ahead. Kill the messahe and not the messenger.
Quoting Coben
No I have not. It is the literal view of the scriptures.
Quoting Coben
Not a Christian practice. A Gnostic Christian practice. Christianity took god out of man and put him in the sky somewhere. We know that god is within man.
Quoting Coben
Not todays preachers until someone stumps them with a question and that is when they hide behind their unknowable label. In the past, preachers were more honest. Now they are just all liars and con men.
Quoting Coben
Yet the sages say the when looking at anything, we should not be for or against as that gives us an unbiased beginning point.
Regards
DL
Too illiterate for me to bother responding to.
You are trying to impress yourself as you have sure failed to impress me.
Regards
DL
Haha! Illiterate? Ironically, it's a statement phrased in the style you'd expect to find in early learning literature.
A is for apple as B is for...?
Do you though? Do you really think posting on this forum is going to do anything to dent the mainstream religions? You should start a petition or a march something if you really care instead of wasting your time here and other forums. If you have a question or critique of religion making it as general as “god is a coward” is hardly going to make for fruitful conversation
My apologies...I took you for your one 'follower' from another trolling ground of yours, A2K.
A list of your infestations would be quite useful to give others an idea of the extent of your obsession.
S is for stupid.
Regards
DL
Against the obtuse and belligerent believers, you are generally correct as few are ready for enlightenment.
I am always happy to learn.
Show us one of these fruitful conversations that you or someone else started that paid off and cause a theist to agree against his original belief.
You must have had one in mind when you wrote what you did.
Regards
DL
When did I ever say it’s easy to literally change someone’s religious beliefs by talking to them as some random stranger on the internet. Most discussions about religion here tend to be analyzing “proofs” for god’s existence or asking for clarification on specific arguments, etc. “God is a coward” doesn’t help anyone which is why no one has engaged with you seriously. How would you reply to an OP that starts with something vague like “why is god so gay?” Or “I like god do you guys agree?”. All you’ve been doing in this post is say “I agree” to people that copy pasted a line from the OP or say “die you piece of human filth” for anyone trying to point out the futility of what you’re doing
Again, as I said, do something in real life if you really care. Start a petition or a march or something. Try for office somewhere. Do you really think your posts have ANY effect on the typical theists? And even if you convert one or two how does that curb the terrible evil of mainstream religion which you’ve stated was your goal? The fact that you’re making posts like this despite knowing they’re useless while feigning that you care about “the atrocities of mainstream religion” tells me you don’t actually want to make an impact and just want attention.
Regards
DL
He hasn't only trolled that site. I googled his last topic: "Do logic and reason say that God is our servant?" (verbatim search). I found like twenty websites with the very same topic.
Then why haven't you learnt that no one cares about your stupid religious cult nonsense?
I seek good minds and as here, they are hard to find.
Regards
DL
True to a degree.
That is why I do not push it much and concentrate on the harm of Christianity and Islam.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
It seems like you're trying real hard to find these "good minds". For someone who posted this topic on the GameFAQs forum, you must be really desperate. :lol:
Christian God. Christian God!
God is not a coward, it's your presumption of grandeur that is the issue. You actually seem to think that God thinks and acts for your exclusive benefit??? :scream: Why would God bother with you or me? Individual humans on a small speck of dust in a secluded cul-de-sac of an inconsequential spiral galaxy.... :chin:
Didn't he create us, in his own image no less? Or... which God are you even talking about? The made up one, right? Ah, but which made up one? Your own made up one, or one that was made earlier?
No. Persistent.
Don't you know that one of the greatest joys in life is learning something new?
Do you expect to learn much from dull minds?
Regards
DL
God, as we can see, does not bother with us. I do not expect a fictional character to do so.
You seem to want to compare my ego with others.
I, unlike Christians, do not think a god would actually die for little old me.
Who has an inflated ego?
Regards
DL
Obsessive.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Not if it isn't interesting.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
No, and that's why I don't expect to learn anything from you. :razz:
Thanks for that extensive trolling information. I underestimated the size of his problem !
The 'seeking good minds' ploy is of course a supercilious gesture exercised by a self proclaimed divinity.
Quote that you G D liar.
Regards
DL
When He shaped human nature’s acumen.
Temptations He then placed everywhere,
But He’ll punish us for being human!
I fear not death, Heaven, or even Hell,
For death is only life’s natural knell,
And Heaven and Hell are within myself;
The one thing I fear is not living well!
And any fool who calls himself 'Greatest I Am' would seem to confirm that even you, with your limited logical ability, were aware of that.
It's perfectly possible, and overwhelmingly more logical, to criticise all religions, including gnostic cults, as a potential source of social perniciousness. The dichotomy 'natural-supernatural' is one red herring employed by some religionists who equate their own parochial concept of 'truth' with the word 'natural'. All such 'group rationales' serve human tribal instincts inherited from our primate ancestors.. They set up the 'us-them' divisions which come to the fore in times of adversity. They define 'the good minds' as those who agree with them. And all such rationales are inextricable from the the human language they are couched in.,.a language which serves human attempts to predict, control and counter aspects of their potentially meaningless existence.
Believing in something is actually an choice. You don't have to believe that this planet exists, it's simply a fact. If you disagree with the existence of planet Earth, likely you have serious mental problems. Religions are about making yourself those choices, usually moral choices, and guiding their followers on how to be a good person. Accepting that the planet Earth exists isn't a moral choice.
No, I offered a response to your words, nothing more. Your ego is your own affair. :wink:
True, and Christians, for instance, have chosen to idolize a genocidal and infanticidal god while thinking that such a moral monster is good.
Faith without facts is for fools.
Regards
DL
Before you can state that a god is a coward, or anything else for that matter, unless you have first proven that the god you are talking about is real then you are talking through your ass.
Quoting ZhouBoTong
I thought all religions were in the comedy genre. But religions have to have a super being or something to worship, so the gnostic cannot be atheist as you stated before. Or are you confused about it.
Made these today:
God thought of, planned, designed, and implemented
Human Nature—angelic to demented,
And in His recipe’s span those expressed
Unsurprisingly had to be reinvented.
Shirking responsibility, The Blamer
Cited humans as the culprits of his err,
And cast them out of Eden, to this day—
This evil being God’s own Original Sin.
The Great Flood killed all but Noah’s near clan,
God acting against His own 6th Command,
Those dead being of God’s intended nature—
Yet another myth-take in rainbow land.
Yet, there was no Genesis of Man, as is,
In modern form, so recently, by a Wiz,
Nor a separate animal life line,
For He flunked out of evolution’s quiz.
I have never been good at poetry and art but I like what I saw.
I have been fighting the genocidal god lovers for some time with the expected results with the obtuse and resilient ones who do not care about their immoral sense.
Perhaps a poem would be better.
I do like some poems and songs of this type and even quote them on occasion.
Sample.
"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,
holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,
there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;
he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God,
he imitates his master,
and of all tyrants,
the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll
Regards
DL
Well, there goes integrity, imitating a Bad Role Model.
Indeed.
Regards
DL
Leave no trace of man’s desire; Holy Spirit turn.[/i]
Oh, man, why detest thy constitution;
Doth thou think Nature has a lot to learn?
So Nature got it wrong, the pious say,
In man’s constitution, erring its essay,
Granting so many ways to go astray.
Well, then, Who, do they say, penned this world’s play?
In the mosque, they say ‘God’ as if its true.
‘Faith’ in their wishes is behind what they chant.
Only a Fool would blame His own creations
For the taint therein—of His poor craftsmanship.
So, rejoice, there’s no Maker of Man; these ‘flaws’
Provide for interesting character types!
[i]The preachers claim ‘perhaps’ as fact and truth.[/I]
Their ingrained beliefs the priests’ duly preach,
As if notions were truth and fact to teach.
Oh, cleric, repent; at least say, ‘Have faith’;
Yet, of unknowns ne’er shown none can e’er reach.
What’s not established can’t be addressed,
For it’s ‘invisible’, such as spirits.
Thus, a belief in a stated unknown,
As ‘faith’, can’t be shown, much less known.
Can someone please shut this Bishop?! God speaks to me every day, you immoral lying piece of garbage. Also, I now need a new chess set because all my pawns are damaged and sticky. I should have never left them in the same box with Bishop.
The artists have taken off their masks.
The illusion is fading; it couldn’t last;
The science behind is appearing fast.
They tried to undo evolution’s pace of snails,
But the stratified fossils ever told the tales
Of no special humans at once unveiled,
But of only natural selection’s weathered sails.
Question.
Can I plagiarize this as is or will I have to ruin the symmetry with my own wording.
Regards
DL
The truth hurts eh. Poor demented fool.
Regards
DL
As our friend just posted.
Only a Fool would blame His own creations
For the taint therein—of His poor craftsmanship.
— PoeticUniverse
Regards
DL
You’re the reason nobody likes you, you retarded ugly troll.
Sure, you can use it and anything I put; all for the cause.
LOL.
Nobody?
Show the survey, or be seen as a liar.
Regards
DL
Perfect. Thanks.
Regards
DL
:roll:
I meant to say that, hidden in our psyche, there's a part of us that wants God to exist. The times when we're distracted by the many pleasures of worldly life we don't get to see that part of us but it does surface when we're in mortal danger.
This of course is not proof that God exists but it does go to show that we're willing to forgive his faults, meaning us, our vices and the world, its unforgiving nature.
Plus also a wish to carry on beyond our expiration date, which can turn religious or zen…
NOW AND ZEN
Everything that is part of us—
Our cells, tissues, organs and organ systems—
Has come about over billions of years
Because it proved successful
In the great survival stakes
During our perilous evolutionary
Descent (ascent) with modification.
The brain, being no exception,
Evolved in part
To allow a creature to learn
From what happens in its life,
To retain key elements that
Could influence future actions.
We are geared for self-preservation;
We will do anything to avoid facing the possibility
That who we are now cannot continue.
We ourselves are mainly the cause
That we are interested in.
The self is preoccupied with staying alive,
Which is why our species is still around today.
It is a prime biological function to be afraid of death,
And so the self as thus contrived
Is able to fully play its crucial survival role.
We want to equip our brain with a soul
That offers us an escape when the brain dies
Since the self cannot come to terms
With its own extinction.
From a subjective standpoint,
We are all born equal and undifferentiated
(Before that, ‘we’ were dead),
But as mature selves we make a distinction
Between the individual and the surroundings.
Still the brain keeps changing throughout life
In a pattern of the shifting flux of its neurons;
We gain and lose memories and feelings,
Essentially creating a new person over and over again.
The self is thus not so rock solid as it seems.
These moment-to-moment changes differ from death
Only in degree. In essence, they are identical,
Although at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
So, we are not static things.
Other neural networks will come to be in other,
Future people, albeit with an “amnesia”
Of what went on before in
The brains of the previous others.
Why should we be happy about this?
We never can be because the ‘I’ cannot operate
Outside of its own boundaries.
The only viable alternative is to think of a way
In which it is possible to ever continue on.
What will it be like to be a part
Of someone else after we die,
With our own particular
Narrative of life cast aside?
[i]That is the ‘zen’
Of now and then and when.[/i]
1.His obsession with his infantile anthropomorhism with which he goads 'believers', and which he ascribes to conventional belief in 'God', is parasitic on, but superficially appeals to, reactionary atheism therby attracting initial attention to himself.. (This would appear to contravene what I have read about one of the basic tenets of Gnosticism, 'to respect all religions').
2. As far as I know, there is no 'poetry section' here in which the urge to be creative in that genre can be satisfied. No doubt that poster could equally attempt to exercise his talents on any issue that might give an audience (even of one !).
So what we have here is a maverick pseudo-gnostic dancing with an aspiring poet on the dance floor of 'a philosophy forum' !
BTW Here's a 'philosophical sonnet' of my own. (It's okay. I'll just dance in a corner).
The Wood and the Trees
Walk with me this childhood path
Where thoughts did bud like Spring's array
That fir, as sapling knew my breath
And bent to the grasp of random play.
Here was the stream where Summer's heat
Trickled to cool beneath the tree
And stark stones sharp beneath my feet
Stippled the flow of eternity.
That which was supple, time binds firm
And that which was wide, to stricture grows.
Each junction of life invites our turn
But closes behind mind's dark hedgerows.
Youth's smiles and tears may betoken nought
Until life's path has its values wrought.
The whole poem is excellent, both as to the forest nature description and to the winding refinement of values upon human nature.
To your first. Sure we want a crutch to help us through hard times. That desire is fueled as you rightly indicate, by our psyche. You might have the time for these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MYsx6WArKY
To your last.
I can appreciate forgiving god as we wish to forgive ourselves.
I cannot appreciate a moral mind thinking that a good god-- sarcasm --- should be forgiven for genocide and infanticide.
Regards
DL
Those who have that insane desire need to read some of the Shangri-La stories to know why they would wish to be dead if they had eternal life.
Even the ancients know of this and that may be why they showed A & E rejecting the tree of life for the tree of knowledge.
Regards
DL
Where did you read this?
It is not true at all. How could it be when we are known for denouncing Yahweh as a demiurge.
You might want to put your brain in gear so as to not look completely stupid and remember as you speak of others.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
Reciprocity is fair play and that is why I lowered myself to your little mind's level.
Regards
DL
.
Purgatory’s on Venus, where sulfurs rain.
Where in the Heck is that deep Hell of pain?
Hell’s found in the sun’s heart, oh hot burning pain!
Where in the name of Heaven is Paradisea?
Of Heaven’s site no one has any idea—
Really now, where’s Heaven one and the same?
It’s the world’s best kept secret: Earth is its name!
Yes, that’s said, but truly, where is the stead…
I must tell of them that they’re only read;
…Of those places spent after we are dead?
It’s written of words that language bred.
‘Twas hope-word that invented All that was said?
‘Twas these that were signed for anything Divine ‘said’.
My mind wants more, as well as a reward beyond.
Mind is the ultimate of all there is;
It is the universe: billions of years
Of primordial material, complex;
So, then, what more could human beings want?
From googling 'The Cult of Gnosticism'
Actually 'Gnosticism' relative to other esoteric cults, looks like a pretty nebulous hotchpotch of ideas.
The 'hidden truths of the bible' are much convincingly handled by the Kabbalah, or by Gurdjieff's Sufi inspired views of the NewTestament, or even by Steiner's 'anthropophesy'. The fact that Jung dabbled with pantheisic ideas like 'the collective unconciousness' or that Rubert Sheldrake's 'morphic resonance' has recently lead him back to 'religious ritual' in general, and Anglicanism In particular, cannot be taken as endorsment by 'scientists' for the upsurge of interest in esotericism, much of which can be traced to the zeitgeist of dissatisfaction with mainstream religion in the aftermath of WW1.
It is obvious to anybody who has read up on esotericism in general, that banal 'heckling' about their own dissent issues about mainstream religion shows a complete lack of understanding of the subject. And ironically, 'authoritative' proponents of esoteric cults argue that such activities are an impediment to actually achieving 'enlightenment' .
In short, your obsessive behavior has more to do with ignorance than the 'knowledge' you seek.
Human nature’s ranges of inclinations
Will, to no surprise, express themselves
Far and wide, as such they ought, regardless
Of that constitution being intended.
Especially if the human recipe
Was thought out, planned, designed notably,
And so implemented accordingly,
Then the results will be just as they should be.
If mistakes crept into the formulas,
Then we’re still as made, outcomes expected,
So, one’s own creation’s still respected—
No shame for all, obviating the blame.
I see nothing to argue against here. Thanks for posting it.
Do you think our ways superior to the Christian ways of misogyny and intolerance of even other Christian cults?
Regards
DL
Thanks for the non peer reviewed opinion, which I could argue easily against but am not interested in doing as there is too much garbage in it. In my opinion of course.
Further, the writer is not around for me to argue with and all I have is a guy that can npot put his own words and opinion down.
What obsessive behavior are you attributing to me and can you not stay large minded and stay away from all your personal garbage?
Regards
DL
Of course I am intolerant to the intolerant homophobes and misogynous and those who willfully put some supernatural genocidal prick above their moral sense that says such a real big prick is evil.
If you don't, what the hell is wrong with you?
Regards
DL
Yet to fathom earth, fire, water, and air,
Asking why life was not square, as unfair,
So invented the Bad Role Model’s Care.
They looked unto their calamities,
Their powerful rulers and enemies,
Toward their olden family structure’s way,
Of strict father, and mother with no say.
This Father Notion they based on themselves,
As the best answer that was ever delved:
The demanding Male Mind who was called ‘God’,
An idea for some to this day, well trod.
The Christian concept of reward and punishment
Handed out by an omnipotent, omniscient God,
Is derivative of the family experience,
The child and parent, a conception of our world.
Answers were needed for them to persist:
They extended the Notion with more myths
And legends into lore layered upon,
Inventing all the scrolls of scripture on.
‘God’ brought both fear and comfort in those days,
Making people better through fearsome ways,
Although worse for some—the unchosen tribes,
Protecting their notions, as taught by scribes.
A wasteland of superstition plod,
Instantiates a meaning for ‘God’.
Emotion e’er sets up a firm blockade
When thoughts fired more build a stockade.
At least with the many gods and entities of old, the bad stuff could all be relegated to a few of them; however, all these old separate entities were amalgamated in the One True God (as claimed).
The dogma written in stone still lives on, unchanged, for it can't change or it wouldn't be dogma, but we can wonder why it is that we wouldn't follow the Example. How about that the invented 'God' doesn't have good character? And even that He has bad character. It is easy to out think Him; He is the easiest target ever dreamt up.
(God: The Non Role Model)
‘Tis lucky for us that God doesn’t exist,
For in breaking the rules He’d ever persist.
Even His own commandments wouldn’t be sacred,
Since He’d murder His own forms created.
Well, this would be goof, big time, a mistake,
So then a joyous rainbow He might make,
To show He’d no more rain a worldly lake,
But He could still destroy us all by earthquake!
He’d slay by flame and flood excruciate;
He’d entrap; he’d blame us for His mistake;
He’d hold grudges for our ancestors’ sins;
He’d throw tantrums and fits; his name, God’s Sake!
Other loves would not allowed by this Jealous One,
For He’d be the only one to enjoy the fun,
For His low esteem our adoration would be required,
This request being much like singing to the choir.
Would He have to rest on the 7th day,
After working 24-6 on making universal hay?
Or would He use boundless energy reserves,
Such that He could do it all in an instant blurb?
Would God’s last name be known as ‘Dammit’,
With ‘Herald’ His name on Earth’s planet,
And would be ‘Art’ named, when up in Heaven?
Would we swearest in vain these names never taken?
We’d have to be so lazy on the Sabbath day,
Not even lifting up a finger or even wave a bug away,
Keeping holy and wholly the laundry on Sunday,
Even avoiding polo, as the Pope doth say.
Cripes, He’d be in the right place at the right time,
Not ever having been made, not even costing a dime.
What luck to be unborn with so much talent,
Never having earned the spot with any effort spent.
Well, we’d still humor our dear parents,
Not telling them where we’d been apparent,
Honoring her offer, on her and off her;
Yet, we’d soon learn, through human nature.
If this non God we’d emulate, we could kill
Those who solicitate, and e’en more kill,
Even time, spouses, bugs, microbes, and other swill,
And, of course, outlaws, and, especially in-laws.
So, if God’s a good role model, a leader,
Someone that we would follow, imitate,
Emulate, be like, adore, or follow,
What else would his fine example allow?
We could jail people for the sins of their
Ancestors, exterminate humanity,
Allow known evil to exist and tempt,
And devise devious entrapment plans.
We could have temper tantrums and outbursts,
Envy, not permit competitors,
Grant free will only it matched our own,
And covet worship, adoration, and praise.
Now, as to the commandment sultry;
Yes, we should surely admit adultery.
Would we banish all thoughts impure?
Well, that’s simply our human nature.
Now, if He’d wanted us not to be naked, say,
Then surely we’d have been born that way.
As for padding, that would false witness be,
So, please, please keep a-breast of reality.
And no loving thy neighbors much too much,
By coveting their Heavenly bodies such,
But thy own ass do covet; it’s not free;
Follow Moses, by always tying it to a tree.
There are stealers about, another shalt not,
Who take office supplies home a lot,
And take various and sundry restaurant items,
As well as keeping every quill, never buying them.
Now, really, ever do one to others, too,
Before they can do one to you,
And never lie in court; no, not you;
Just let your lawyer do it for you!
Now, walking on water is very much out,
Unless there is solid ice, winter, no doubt,
And always know that sin is fun’s evil twin,
And ever enter that evil Sin-a-God.
So, what more would this invented God be,
The One with neither paternity nor maternity?
Would we then be made so specially
That we’d be rewarded for all eternity?
If we’d worship Him from fear of Hell,
Then He’d rightly cast us into it;
If we’d worship Him from a desire for Paradise,
Then He’d deny us entrance into it.
Well, He’s still on His meds, so we say,
For He works in mysterious, insane, ways.
The free will to us given is ever free,
Unless it doesn’t match His own entirely.
He’d still detest evil so totally completely,
That he’d allow the Devil to tempt us mercilessly.
And sins, even the most horrible ones, well,
No big deal; just repent them to avoid Hell.
Rigged and jigged, God’s perfect plans would be done,
But he’d long for some surprises yet to come,
So He might even roll the dice, it being ‘random’;
‘Damn!’ He’d say, ‘I already know the outcome!’
One-night stands with engaged young virgins
Would be alright, but those are not good urgins;
And no fighting, especially if you are weak;
So, when one kisses your ass, turn the other cheek!
The Diviner would just sit around, with nothing else to do,
His mind already full with what would become as new.
He couldn’t play dice, scrambling the forecast,
For He would know all of which the die was cast.
R.I.P. The Biblical 'God' idea
Where did I indicate such nonsense?
Regards
DL
Quoting PoeticUniverse
So, how are those descriptions for getting the Biblicals to think deeper?
It is not so much to kill Yahweh. It is to have more moral people than he is recognize that they are that.
I want to bring good news to their egos and minds by improving their thinking, not bad news that their god is dead. If dead, he will just be replaced. Let him live as an example of evil.
That is the lesson to be learned. I come to heal, not to kill. I am not like Yahweh. I have a Christ mind.
Regards
DL
Like some might argue that...
Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?
given that it implies you think belief in the supernatural means one is not intelligent
is not tolerant of people who believe differently that you do and doesn't fit that list the other posted regarding the qualities of Gnostics.
He might as well be living, per the believers' beliefs, and it's tough to replace dogma.
Per the OP:
We search for 'God', high and low, here and there,
Far and wide—He's said to be ev'ry where;
But no omens are found: quasars abound;
So, He hides out or He's truly nowhere.
Medice, cura te ipsum !
I'm in one of those situations which would greatly benefit from divine intervention. I've been thinking about God for the past 5-6 years and I still haven't found a solution to the problem of evil.
Personally I don't think good should be rewarded because that would vititate the very essence of goodness i.e. selflessness. Also evil shouldn't be punished because I believe what Socrates said "no one is knowingly evil". I wish God was like that but unfortunately he seemed to have created heaven and hell. He shouldn't have done that.
Absolutely. That is the best way to be. Right?
Quoting Coben
Gnosis has little to do with my opinion on the supernatural. Rejecting the supernatural is just adult common sense.
You are trying hard to brand me. Forget it.
Regards
DL
More like hard to replace the insecurity that has people believe in idiocy instead of just growing up.
Regards
DL
??
Evil is good and not a problem if you look at the bigger picture.
.
Take evil out of our evolution and we go extinct.
It's a long story. This was written for a theist.
-------------
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.
Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
This link speak to theistic evolution.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pope-would-you-accept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Regards
DL
Absolutely. Hence insulting their intelligence, amongst other things, might be best avoided. Right?
Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopIf the intolerance disappears, it'll be really easy to stop noting it. And then you'll fit that description of Gnostics you said you had no problem with. And it is relevent of course, since part of your well justified concern about certain religious people is their intolerance.
"God is not a magician" is the beginning of the downfall of 'God' for the Catholics, it demonstrating that the Bible contains fairytales.
Insults, like all dialog, have a use.
If you are to think, you chance insulting others.
The obtuse fall hard. Poor things.
Regards
DL
True but he can make moral people call his immoral ass good.
That is power.
Regards
DL
They have always known this. Religions are not really about beliefs. They are about assuaging insecurity. Peer pressure and fellowship are there as well.
Regards
DL
Believers tremble in fear of the Big Bad Boss,
His immorality untrusted not to cause loss—
Insanity hidden in ‘mysterious ways’;
They accept, so He them into Hell doesn’t toss.
Regards
DL
Big indoctrination, from which not so many can recover.
Life’s cruelty satisfies all repentance,
So this credit give me when Thy sentence,
While here, too, I sin to cancel Your debt,
And away from the holy mosque jump the fence.
The Christian God is vengeful, demands of,
And tortures us with threats of Hellish shove.
Well, if I were a God and ruled above,
You could remove all my powers but love.
There’s no external creative deity.
Don’t worry, this verse has no impiety,
For we are the creative principle;
Intuitive strength is our propriety.
When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;
Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in Hell?
The idol house is as the mosque, a shrine.
And chime of striking bells service divine;
Gueber’s belt, church and rosary and cross,
Each is in truth of worshiping a sign.
Why would the All Knowing, Loving Expert
Compose with Power His designed Concert,
Then decompose His meant Magnificat?
Because there’s none Such beyond the turret.
The sky, a vault, spans our worn lives below;
Jihun a course from our strained eyes aflow;
Hell is a spark struck by our vain distress;
Heaven but an instant when content we know.
How long of temple-incense, mosque-lamp tell?
How long of Heaven’s rewards or pains of Hell?
See, from all time ‘What is to be, will be!’
The Lord of Fate did on the Tablet spell!
I drown in sin—show me Thy clemency!
My soul is dark—make me Thy light to see!
A heaven that must be earned by painful works,
I call a wage, not a gift fair and free.
In Heaven, they say, dwell dark-eyed Houris fair,
And that pure wine and honey will be there;
If wine and woman we love here, ’tis right
Since all the same’s the end of the affair.
In Paradise, they tell us, Houris dwell,
And fountains run with wine and oxymel:
If these be lawful in the world to come,
Surely ‘tis right to love them here as well.
re:tolerant
Oh ok. I think we need to understand a few things here. Evil is a problem for God. One thing that strikes me as really odd is the magnitude of evil. It seems disproportionate and excessive - do we beat our children senseless to make them understand a point?
You're a non-believer so I can understand why you think "evil is good". In biological terms pain is necessary to maintain a healthy state of mind and body. Leprosy destroys pain sensation and that results in injury that patients can't sense ultimately resulting in disfigurement, the hallmark of the disease that results in social ostracism.
One would think so, yet 'God', whether the invented one or a 'good' one, lets evil spirits run free, blah, blah, blah.
Quoting TheMadFool
Or do we torture them with flame? There goes the believers' unequal argument comparing God's discipline, and as such to be allowed, blah, blah, blah.
No need to be greatly annoyed, for the believers, as all of us, have to do what we do, whether silly or intelligent, as l luck would have us. Learning is out for the deeply indoctrinated, and so any progress is out, they being stuck.
So when the religious people enact homophobic speech or worse, or control women, or do any of a number of things that one might consider evil, it is really good?
You say that there is a disproportionate amount of evil, while I see the opposite.
You are not looking at the big picture and do not seem able to read stats correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM
Check any stat for evil that you like and you will see that it is likely at the best position we have yet to enjoy. Not the eco system of course.
Regards
DL
Is it? I don't think so but you go ahead and think that if you like.
Regards
DL
I disagree. The usual stats don't reflect facts accurately. Evil needs more weight age than good. I mean a hundred charities can't balance one murder. We see that in the courts - no matter how good you are if you kill someone you go to jail.
Yes but the thing is, we do less killing.
Ignore the stats and you ignore reality.
Regards
DL
Makes sense only to those who aren't killed. Actually it makes a whole lot of sense - high precision bombs, etc.
Unless you're rich.
Yes, we can't forget that money seems to break the laws of nature.
??
You mean it shows the laws of nature and how we let our insecurities lead our thinking.
We all want to be close to power, even if it is power used for evil.
Note how many idolize a genocidal and infanticidal prick of a god.
Regards
DL
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
I can't see where the confusion came from, haha. Still sounds like a sarcastic atheist to me.
It seems to me (hoping to be wrong) that everything has a price. The courts of law are fully aware of how money can easily break even the most principled man/woman.
So I won't be surprised if one day a Jeff Bezos or a Donald Trump buys gravity or quantum physics. They just need to get the price right. :roll:
They need to be as big of liars and hypocrites as the religious. Trump is already there.
Regards
DL
Perhaps you I.Q. just needs a boost. Let me help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA
Regards
DL
Trump is not unlike the strict Master controller, and many republicans are fundamentalists.
Trump wanted to buy Greenland for its resources, much like Alaska was bought, but… a new joke forms… Trump, claiming no global warming, still wanted to corner the market on ice, much as the late 18th capitalists monopolized railroads, steel, and oil, but when Trump went to see Greenland, it was all green and had no more ice!
I'll lend you my glasses if you want. :cool: Make it easier to see.
Quoting ZhouBoTong
Or is it possibly atheistic sarcasm?
I hear you.
Trump is a saint as compared to the god those right wingers follow.
The Christian god is a fascist and so is Trump.
Regards
DL
Isn't faith often - or always, by definition? - without facts? :chin:
Faith only, without fact, is for ungrounded preachers just saying … like I heard once, "If you don't believe what we do, then I'm afraid to tell you what will happen to you."
More Bible Study Class—as begun in another, similar thread:
I did read the Bible, as I was Catholic, until 5th grade, and I am referring to some of my 4th grade notes here:
God, not really being everywhere, moves about from place to place, walks around in the Garden of Eden, comes down from Heaven to see the Tower of Babel, the city of Sodom, and so on. So, God is neither everywhere nor knows everything, since He must come over to investigate things. As in… God asks Adam where he had hidden himself and asks Cain where his brother is.
Nor is God invisible, as He can be ‘seen’ above, and has eyes, ears, hand, are, fingers, and such; however, some who see Him are ended by “No one can see Me and live”. Moses was OK since he only saw the back of God. Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeremiah and others also saw God and somehow survived. Actually, no where in the Bible does it say that God knows everything.
I learned all this at St. Bernadine Catholic Grammar School, Forest Park, Illinois, which is next to the Atomic Fireball Factory that burned down once… but that’s another story.
After my conversion to normalcy in 5th grade, but before falling in love with my nun in 6th grade, another story, I looked even deeper into the beauty and the strangeness of the Bible, since I was bored in school, and noted that:
Many Bible stories were recorded in writing for the first time—they were oral before—long after the historical events described, thus creating a further history altered by hindsight, shaped by the intervening events. For example, the destruction of Solomon’s temple is foretold in the books of prophecy written long after the event, foretelling what had already happened… Same for the New Testament, a few hundred years or so afterward…
I also found some notes from Molly McGuire, whom I often spent time under a tree with, but that is another story… By the way, we raided the dumpsters of the Fireball Factory and filled empty desks with fireballs…
Unfortunately, my 6th grade nun, Sister Theophelia, ran off with our priest, Father Kramer. I didn’t even know that little old me might have had a chance with her… I was afraid to ask to walk her home and all that, although she lived but twenty feet away, in the convent.
In 7th grade, they separated the girls from the boys, and so we all just got all the hotter for each other, then meeting after school and… but that’s another story—and also maybe no one wants to hear about it.
The original text of what was to become one of the Bibles that we might own today was actually translated numerous times, with each new generation imposing its own political and religious agenda on it. I had a Greek Septuagint version once. — 6th grade notes
So, my notes go on to say that Exodus looked somewhat suspicious: 600,000 men, along with women, livestock, and children, wandering around for forty years in an arid wasteland, just because Moses, being a man, wouldn’t ask for directions. Also, there was no archaeological trace, so probably is was just a small thing that got way exaggerated. As for a conquest of Canaan, full of original Israelite conquerors, it was really like “We have met the Canaanites and they are us”. As for David writing so many psalms, he didn’t really, for the Hebrew word for ‘of’ really meant ‘for’, as in for David.
For homework, read the great poem of the Song of Solomon with your girlfriend or boyfriend and write up the results.
Please don’t be late for class tomorrow.
What a mean Guy; With 'friends' like Him, we hardly need the Devil.
...or maybe She's just busy looking after the rest of the Universe? It's a big place...?
Well, contempt, yes, if 'God' didn't really design our human nature, but that instead each one of us personally defined our human nature from scratch.
And then there is the age old, maybe what we think we can deduce is not correct. That our limited intelligence/knowledge/perspective can make us judge actions/facets in ways that are fallible. Like children can judge adult policies incorrect given their, in relation, limited knowledge. And animals can certain get frustrated with their owners choices. The god moves in mysterious ways thingie.
I do think this argument/position has been used horrifically. On the other hand, it is also hard to rule out. So if some bunch of humans want to foist it on me, I am resistant. But I also balk when skeptics say they know it is not the case. They know they can judge and draw correct conclusions. Well, I doubt that too.
For real? [As Americans say.] We each defined ourselves? That would be the best bootstrapping trick I've ever seen or heard of. If it was correct. :chin:
Such are the ridiculous lengths believers go to in order to let 'God' shirk responsibility for human nature being such as it is.
Glad you could make it to Bible Study Class today.
Evolution via natural selection endowed human mammals with the notion of looking for intent in nature, and that helped us out a lot with our real environment. That it became somewhat innate is The Problem, as in what people still make up about the Intent.
It’s still that once one uses a specific word, one has to declare the word in all its specifics. I know we all have a vague idea of what ‘God’ means, but ask ten people ten questions about God, and one will find that there are ten ideas about god out there, not one. If one uses a word, one must fully explain that word, and in light of the Theory of Everything, one must also do that on scientifically satisfying grounds.
Many have said semantically impossible things in which the words sound good, but make no sense, like, say, “God is the Universe”, but, like a rose, it’s still the universe by any other name. Many even said what God is not, such as being undefinable, but that only supported the claim that to say that this notion of “God” says nothing, for it indeed defines nothing.
Everyone thinks that God knows everything, can do anything, and is everywhere, but really, actually, for sure and with no doubt, poor old God was just an advanced alien bumbling along through some carbon-based experiments as a student of biology… For real?
In retrospect we can see that any higher composite Mind had to have been upwards of our evolution, comparatively speaking, not something tiny, simple, and non-compositely fundamental way back when. He’s not really God, but we’ll still call Him that since He created us in a lab experiment. Not likely.
The Bible might be your holy book, but it isn't mine. :up: :smile:
No, they don't.
You can't get out of Bible Study that easily. I see from here that you also have 'The Egyptian Book of the Dead on you bookshelf.
First, 'God' threw out some debris that became our universe, since He really couldn’t make any original stuff instantly, and being limited to that, had to wait for 13.75 billions years for protohomo sapiens to appear, then tampered with our DNA to put the final perfect touches upon our human nature, making “Adam and Eve” in a Garden.
Well, old God, not really knowing didly-squat, was mighty darn surprised when his human nature design immediately flubbed when they ate an apple forbidden to them. “Jeeese”, thought God, “you tell them not to touch something and that’s the first thing they do.” So He threw them out of the Garden to see if that would help. It didn’t, and God was surprised, but we all were mostly fruitful and so multiplied into the millions. He recalled, too, that his Angel creations had failed.
God waited around, thinking that surely some more evolution of His new DNA masterpiece would do the trick. It didn’t, surprise, surprise, so God found the best man on earth, Noah, and his family, saved him and killed all the rest of humankind. Things would surely improve now, for this was like breeding cats, dogs, or horses. Nothing improved whatsoever, and even more folly and wars were going on, so the much more surprised God sent Moses down with the Ten Commandments. This would help change the masses.
Well, things did change; they got worse, and so God, shocked at this turn of events, sent many plagues of locusts to scare them into shaping up. This did not much work and God was utterly astounded, so God sent some prophets, but nothing much changed. “Darn,” said God. Or "damn!"
God then sent Jesus to preach goodness, but they crucified him. Wars, stealing, murdering, plundering, and name calling continued unabated, the different religions even warring against each other. This was all really getting out of hand.
God sent even more prophets, such as “Bab”. No effect. Shock and surprise. Earth’s problems got worse; the Nazis almost conquered the world. 11 million died in death camps. God, of course, was limited, apparently, and could do nothing to help. Finally, God, realizing that his experiment was hopeless, turned in His lab report and soon flunked the course.
(This is a true story handed down from some ancient historians who knew everything.)
The phenomenon of reliably consistent creation by causal intelligence lying behind it is philosophically and logically impossible without more causal intelligence lying behind it, etc., that is, a system of intelligent mind is a system, having parts beneath that are more fundamental than the resultant system. Where does it end (begin)? It cannot be with mind, for mind is composite. The regress must end at the simplest and the tiniest, where the buck stops. QED
The Egyptian Book of the Dead is a guide to dying well, nothing more. :roll:
Quoting PoeticUniverse
Do you have evidence? Or supporting ideas, even? :chin:
It wasn't stated clearly, but it is shooting down that life had to come from a larger life, and so forth… since that makes a regress.
Thanks for doing your homework.
The Bible Study Class continues:
Ex Nihilo: The Real Book of Genesis, featuring Nothing
1 First, as ever and always, nothing made the heavens and the Earth, since there was nothing to make it of. Technically, nothing made the teeny-tiny secondary ‘elementals’, as opposite pairs, before their subsequent combinations, which then went on to form higher complexities, even us.
2 The Earth was once without form, and void, as zilch, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of nothing was moving over the face of the waters. Hey, what waters? Water came later. No waters.
3 And not a thing said, “Let there be light”, and there were photons, and a big electric bill, too. And then as well came forth electrons, quarks, and their anti-particles of opposite matter and charge, ever still summing to the sum-thing zero-balance of nothing. OK, now we’re cooking.
4 And nullity saw that the light was good; and nil separated all the more the light from the darkness in equipoise of positive and negative.
5 Zero called the light day, and the darkness it called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one fine day, and even an afternoon. It was Oneday. Yes, even out in space.
6 And void said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” The “waters” must have been mirages, for there weren’t no waters before all, nohow, no way.
7 And naught made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. Water, water not everywhere, nor any drops to drink!
8 And zip called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day, plus a yesterday and a tomorrow to come. It was Twosday.
9 And nada said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. Finally, water was in its proper place, as really having become of H2O.
10 Diddly-squat called the dry land earth, and the waters that were gathered together it called seas. And nobody saw that it was good.
11 And not anything said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth, plus very many weeds.” And it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. Duh, that was expected. And trifle saw that it was good. Um, wait, there was evolution.
13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. OK already; we get the day to day thing. It was Wedding-day.
14 And no big deal said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years and weeks and months and seasons and years and millennia and eternity.”
15 “And let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. Actually, protons made the stars.
16 And neither here nor there made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. This was well before Rockefeller invented kerosene Thomas Edison invented the light bulb.
17 And nonentity set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, meaning that they really slowly formed—
18 To rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And no-name saw that it was good. Alright, let’s get on with it already.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. Cripes! Sure Happy It’s Thursday, or Thirstday.
20 And God Damnit Nothing said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, even mosquitoes, I guess, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” So immutable! Evolution, remember?
21 So nonperson created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And Gosh saw that it was good.
22 And nothing blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the Earth.”
23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Thank God It’s Friday, or Fryday.
24 And positive/negative said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” Dinosaurs were not known of. And it was so. What a zoo.
25 And lack of anything made the beasts of the Earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And zippo saw that it was really getting darned good, although it was getting really crowded.
26 Then yin/yang said, to his wife? “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; (bad move) and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” Hmmm… the poor subservient animals and the environment.
27 So, love (zero in tennis) created man in his own image, in the image of empty he created him; male and female, and gays and lesbians he created them. Is that “own image” why we are so flawed?
28 And vacant blessed them, while unoccupied said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; (so much for the environment again) and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” Maybe humans should use birth control and mostly multiply with calculators?
29 And bare said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.”
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. Just like that?
31 And clear saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very damned good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day. Sitting day, or Satday.
The way the term is used today, yes.
Regards
DL
Quite possibly. All I can tell for sure is that he is a deadbeat dad who will not visit us, the children of god.
Regards
DL
I don't know if I appreciate this guy preaching for Gnostic Christianity. Rather gothic.
He does not speak too badly though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno
Regards
DL
What do scriptures say of god and man forgiving?
7 x 70 times I think are the numbers.
God may not be able to count.
Regards
DL
Yes.
It shows lack of confidence in what is being held back.
Regards
DL
No. The bible is a book of ancient wisdom and myth created to enhance discussions and debates.
That worked well until Christianity began to read their myths literally.
Here is some history for you.
I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.
https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."
Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D
Regards
DL
A lot of people claim to detect recurring patterns in history, now imagine how it looks to an all-knowing or even simply multidimensional being. Very boring huh.
You presume that humans can and will understand God, does your pet fully understand and anticipate you? Sure there is a level of implicit telepathy with a familiar cat but that cat doesn't understand half of what goes through your mind and probably doesn't care.
Now, if you can ignore ego and pride for a moment, imagine you are the cat and God is the human.
If so, then reciprocity should be applied and we should ignore [him] as well.
[edited by moderator]
Quoting New2K2
In any way.
Quoting New2K2
I cannot speak for an imaginary supernatural entity. Like everyone else, I have no access to some supernatural realm. [delted].
Quoting New2K2
Yes. Close enough.
Quoting New2K2
They can understand enough to know if they should be upset or not with our thoughts.
Quoting New2K2
Ok. I see god as [deleted] genocidal [deleted] as he murdered all of the cats and dogs, except for two of each of course.
[deleted]}.
Regards
DL
:grin: Mincing the fresh meat ?... but fails to lift the fetid word salad !
That's a bit of supercilious pomposity from someone who hasn't bothered to do much reading.
In particular, what you call 'reasoning' takes no account of the Zeigeist from which philosophical axioms emerge, or rely on for their semantic import. Nor do you seem to have the slightest idea about the limitations to classical logic emerging from say from Godels incompleteness theorem, or the QM departure from the 'law of the excluded middle'.
So not only does your remark underscore your own indolence, it feeds the troll whose idiosyncratic mythology puts 'reason' on a pedestal.
As in the brighter days of religions, we tend to give authority to the people of the book.
Intelligently so when studying Judaism and Christianity, unfortunately, the book and it's ideas have been corrupted by Christian liars and the manipulation of the text, which is a myth that stupid people read literally and as history.
The bible was written as a book of wisdom, but literal reading screwed up the wisdom.
Regards
DL
Mythology does the opposite.
Logos, not mythos, puts logic and reason above the faith of fools.
Regards
DL
Logically, it does not follow.
No wonder you try to get definitions ahead of a discussion. You misuse terms and likely think wee all do.
Regards
DL
As perpetual seekers, we do not recognize any ultimate divine order or absolute reason.
That would be idol worshiping and make us no better than the mainstream religion idol worshipers.
We were known as the only good Christians because we did not idol worship and always put man above god, given that all the gods are man made.
Regards
DL
This.
Regards
DL
A little wordy, but thanks for the argument.
You win this one.
Regards
DL
There is only one basic Gnostic Christianity and our friend does not have a clue as to what that looks like.
This is not surprising given the lies the inquisitors put out to justify their many murders.
We have also evolved our thinking over time, which shows the beauty of our ideology.
Regards
DL
The core text to a Gnostic is denoted by his label. As a Gnostic Christian, my core text is the bible. A Gnosticv Muslim's core text will be the Qur'an.
The core of Gnosticism is not tied to any particular text as one can be a Gnostic to any religion of thinking system.
Being Gnostic does have a core ideology though. It denotes a free thinkers not tied to any particular ideology.
We, like the bible states, think wisdom can only be perfected and found in many places. Gnostic would also de defined as esoteric ecumenists and in my case, naturalist.
That is what scriptures urge all people to be and do so as not to be idol worshipers of any ideology.
Regards
DL
Dislike is mild.
I think hate would be closer to the truth. I say that proudly as such evil should be hated.
At least I hope it is as hate is born from love and that would show that I have a lot of love for the victims of G D immoral religions.
Would you like Christianity if they had decimated your founding religion and most of it's adherents?
Regards
DL
I use this almost as a signature sometimes.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
1. If God does not show himself, then he fears to show himself.
2. God does not show himself.
3. Therefore, God fears to show himself. (1, 2 MP)
4. If God fears to show himself, then God is a coward.
5. Therefore, God is a coward. (3, 4 MP)
6. If God is a coward, then he is not worthy of the title “God.”
7. Therefore, God is not God. (5, 6 MP)
I’d like to object to premises 1 and 2.
First – an objection to the inference in premise 1. You are claiming that the reason that God does not show himself is out of fear. You have not offered any evidence to support this claim. I think your inference is incorrect because there are other reasons that God might not show himself, if that is true. For example, if God were to show himself to us, to an extent that we would know for certain that he exists, we would have no choice but to believe in him. If we had no choice but to believe in him, then we would not have free will in our act of belief.
For clarification, here is my argument in a hypothetical syllogism.
1. If God were to clearly show himself to us (to an extent that we would know for certain that he exists) then we would have no choice but to believe in him.
2. If we had no choice but to believe in him, then we would not have free will in our act of belief.
3. If God were to clearly show himself to us, then we would not have free will in our act of belief.
If your conception of God values free will, then this justifies why one could think that your inference is incorrect.
Second – an objection to premise 2, “God does not show himself.”
We’ve established that if you believe mankind should have free will, then God cannot clearly show himself to the extent that the evidence would be insurmountable. Our only other option is to look for subtler signs of God. Many people have argued that there are signs of God in the organization of the world, and how intricately it appears designed. Others believe they can see God manifested in instances of selflessness and love between other people. Clearly, both of these arguments are complex and require further justification. But for the sake of the objection, I think these two points makes your second premise unsound.
My argument is as follows:
1. If you believe mankind should have free will, then God cannot clearly show himself.
2. Mankind should have free will.
3. Therefore, God cannot clearly show himself. (1, 2 MP)
4. If God cannot clearly show himself, then he either doesn’t show himself at all, or he shows himself subtly.
5. So, either God doesn’t show himself at all, or he shows himself subtly. (3, 4 MP)
6. God shows himself subtly.
7. Therefore, it is not true that God doesn’t show himself at all. (5, 6 DS)
Let me know your thoughts and if I have inaccurately represented your argument.
I agree. Alll his posts seem to be either rants or axes to grind.
Who knows he could be a Fundamentalist in hiding testing his own ideas and using the forum (us) as a proving ground for his rants...
I could see if his posts were different but they're all about the excact same thing... .
I recommended to have him channel his anger in some sort of activism rather than clogging up the server space here LOL
He needs to find an outlet for the pent-up anger and I'm worried he might otherwise get violent.... this is a concern....
Thus, op seems to be projecting - making god into his own image. We all do that but some of us hate the shadow aspects of ourselves and project that hate outwardly.
Reality has a way of being reality and yes, it has evidence.
Do you have something against knowing the truth?
We, --- have not established that. Our free will has nothing to do with god showing himself or not.
This question is more about his free will.
Regards
DL
Evidence on any supernatural god is impossible to have, unless you have a way of accessing some supernatural realm.
Do you have such a way?Quoting philorelkook
Show when and where.
Regards
DL
[deleted]
You are right that I have an agenda.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
The vast majority in the West, where I live, are Christian and Muslim.
What gender do you give to Yahweh and Allah?
Regards
DL