Hong Kong

Totally on the side of the protestors but having trouble figuring out what they want to achieve.

Reply to Evil

The Chinese strategy in Hong Kong has been to 'boil the frog', to gradually turn up the heat on democratic institutions and personal freedoms until they die away. And the strategy was more or less working until they got overconfident with the extradition law. So, now the frog has jumped out of the water and they're going to have to stab it to death to stop it. Which, unfortunately, I expect they will.

There are micro-arguments to be made about the ethics of some protester actions against the police: it often looks like the protesters are intent on goading them into violence. And up until very recently, security forces have been relatively restrained. However, the bigger picture is the encroachment of a fascist state on a disappearing democracy. Hong Kongers are right to resist and they deserve our support.

Don't agree with this conservative writer a whole lot, but his comments in this article (from 2008) are still current and worth reading.

http://www.aei.org/publication/beijing-embraces-classical-fascism/

Quoting Baden

However, the bigger picture is the encroachment of a fascist state on a disappearing democracy.

And the even bigger picture is how long must those in mainland China continue to suffer under fascism. There is something painful in watching freedoms being removed, but it's as painful to think about those who have never tasted it.

What is the leverage of those in Hong Kong? Does China care about world opinion?

Reply to Wayfarer

Quoting Alison Rourke

The protests were initially focused on a bill that would have made it possible to extradite people from Hong Kong to China, where the Communist party controls the courts. Many Hongkongers feared the law would be used by authorities to target political enemies and that it would signify the end of the “one country, two systems” policy, eroding the civil rights enjoyed by Hong Kong residents since the handover of sovereignty from the UK to China in 1997. Millions of people joined street marches against the bill, paralysing the city. The protests have gone from weekly to almost daily.

What do the protesters want?

The extradition bill was suspended by the territory’s chief executive, Carrie Lam, in mid June, but protesters want it officially withdrawn. In addition to demanding Lam’s resignation, the protesters are calling for:

The complete withdrawal of the proposed extradition bill

The government to withdraw the use of the word “riot” in relation to protests

The unconditional release of arrested protesters and charges against them dropped

An independent inquiry into police behaviour

Implementation of genuine universal suffrage

Reply to EvilIt hasn't come as a surprise.

As the Communist leadership grew more confident of it's own position, it is absolutely no wonder that it would show it's true totalitarian face. With Hong Kong it just has been decades in the making. Soon it's going to be a quarter of a Century that has gone from the time when the British handed Hong Kong to China. And today for China the West isn't as crucial as it was still in the 1990's for the re-engineering and economic transformation. China has gone a long way in the last 20 years, hence the Chinese Communists can show their true face.

After all, now with computers an Orwellian surveillance state is totally possible to create.

The Hong Kong protestors are democratic heros, actual, real life superheroes, and what they're doing may just be the last gasp of democracy anywhere in the world. They deserve our support, if only because they know far better than 'us' what democratic politics looks like. We ought to support them because they can teach us, miserable students that we are. I look at what is happening there with sheer, untrammeled admiration. And I feel shame that we're so fucking useless in comparison.

Hong Kong is made of a lot of super rich people and a lot of incredibly poor people living in squalid conditions because the government owns the real estate and collects rent instead of taxes.

The protesters are doomed. They have no allies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49330848

Quoting StreetlightX

And I feel shame that we're so fucking useless in comparison.

What do 'we' have to protest about?

Quoting Hanover

And the even bigger picture is how long must those in mainland China continue to suffer under fascism.

Quoting ssu

As the Communist leadership grew more confident of it's own position, it is absolutely no wonder that it would show it's true totalitarian face.

Is it facism or communism?

Reply to Hanover

China does care about brand China, which is why, for example, it actively denies the existence of these, but it cares even more about control and quashing dissent, so if it comes to a choice between suffering a dent in its image internationally but not appearing weak domestically vs looking good to Joe foreigner but losing public face at home, it will choose strength and crush the protests.

Quoting Evil

Is it facism or communism?

As Deng Xiaoping said: "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat."

I guess when a Communist accepts the capitalist system as a workhorse, you do end up with fascism.

Yet it is something else too: the fear of Democracy. That China could go the way of the Soviet Union, that democracy would lead not only the destruction of the power of the Communist Party, but also the disintegration of present day China. Tibet would go, Dzungaria from Xingjang would go. And what other place after that? That is the thinking of the Communist Party. The course was already decided in 1989 in Tiananmen Square and after.

And since you have after that the largest economic boom the World has seen, the Communist Party can indeed congratulate itself.

Quoting Baden

they deserve our support.

I totally agree, but I have not the vaguest idea what I can do that would amount to even the most gossamer support. I fear that Hong Kong's goose is cooked. (New entrée: Take a flock of protesting geese; execute, torch their feathers, draw, quarter, stir-fry in blood. Pass it around the restaurant as a warning to everyone else.)

Reply to Evil

It's modern East Asian state capitalism with a fascist smile (the PR term being 'socialism with Chinese characteristics'). The closest system is probably Singapore, a "democracy" which has had the same party in power, 'The People's Action Party' since 1959.

Emma Goldman's comment re Soviet Russia in the thirties is germane:

"Such a condition of affairs may be called state capitalism, but it would be fantastic to consider it in any sense Communistic [...] Soviet Russia, it must now be obvious, is an absolute despotism politically and the crassest form of state capitalism economically."

Reply to Bitter Crank

Ok, they deserve our support FWIW. Which probably isn't much. And let's face it, leaving us plebs aside, the wider world is very unlikely to do anything either. China is big enough to be approaching US style invincibility. In mafia terms, it's a made man.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Quoting tim wood

Likely you, if no one else here, remembers the news of the Hungarian revolution of 1956.

Before my time, but a very apt reference.

Quoting tim wood

the Hungarian revolution of 1956

Only a 34 year wait then...

.

This is the end.

Reply to Wittgenstein Thanks for taking the time to present such a thorough explanation. The difficulty seems to me to be that the protest movement is not able to articulate a real political outcome or aim, beyond those three demands which look unlikely to be met. I am in total agreement with the movement but it seems to me to lacking in leadership and aim. Obviously the Communist party is treading carefully as HK is a huge commercial hub and intermediary between China and the West and a hamfisted crackdown could lead to enormous political problems. Agree that its a tremendously vexed situation - one of several.

Quoting Wayfarer

Thanks for taking the time to present such a thorough explanation.

Yes. An excellent in-depth, comprehensive piece of clear knowledgeable writing. Far superior to my quickie link to the Guardian article. Thanks Wittgenstein :smile:

Although there is something I feel impelled to say - which is that when the protest movement broke into and trashed the HK Legislative Assembly building a few weeks ago, my feeling was they had crossed a line from protest to civil insurrection. I am also wondering if this action at the International Airport has done the same. Yes, they have a righteous cause, but you have to wonder if the end justifies the means in these cases.

I say that, because one of the purported benefits of the 1 Country 2 System solution is that HK respects the rule of law in a way that the PRC does not. I was highly impressed by many statements to this effect that were made when the whole issue blew up. So if you praise the rule of law, then you need to walk the talk. There are many protest actions that can be made lawfully. But when you break the law in order to protest, then there’s a risk of trashing the very thing you say you’re trying to defend.

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Reply to Wittgenstein The Guardian noted that a shortage of remotely affordable housing was an underlying frustration of many of the young protestors. Granted that HK does not have large empty parcels on which to build a lot of affordable housing, many feel the HK government could do better than it has in the housing area. True? No?

How about that “renegade province” NE of you? Any thoughts on their future?

Quoting Wittgenstein

In 28 years, China will takeover HK and people in hk should start accepting their Chinese identity atleast as a step towards integrating with China.

Concerning national identity - I lack knowledge in this - how many identify with the Chinese way of life ?
I don't know that there should be a 'should' to accept a forced identity.

What do you think of this proposal ?

Quoting Peter Walker

The UK should give Hong Kong citizens full UK nationality as a means of reassurance amid the current standoff with Beijing, the chair of the influential Commons foreign affairs committee has argued.

Tom Tugendhat said this should have happened to people in the formerly British-ruled territory in 1997, when it was handed back to Chinese control, and that doing so now would reassure Hong Kong’s people that they were supported by the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/uk-british-nationality-hong-kong-citizens-tom-tugendhat

Quoting frank

The protesters are doomed. They have no allies.

Frank, if you could hold your breath a little longer in predicting the final outcome of these protestors, I would appreciate it.
Though support might be scattered globally, I can tell you that these young people in Hong Kong are being watched by the young people around me here and not just in a supportive role of "their" desire for freedom, though that is where my energies lay but rather a possible playbook for their own future.
"We" the generations older than 30, are being watched by our children, many of us who believe in standing up for our flag because of indoctrination or genuine understanding and appreciation of the benefits of living in the United States, under our Constitution.
But that is where there is a growing divide, one that the politicians here are all too eager to exploit for their own personal benefit. Many people of college age do not believe in doing things the same way simply for the sake of stability but are looking to try and shape their future in the framing that appeals to them. And that future can and does look very different from the current reality we interact in and with whom. The protesters in Hong Kong have young backers here in the USA which is a concept that I just didn't have awareness of at the young age they do.
I must say my heart was touched to see the stars and stripes being raised in the name of freedom in the Hong Kong airport.

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Quoting Wittgenstein

The attack at the International Airport was way worse than the attack on the legislative council building since the former one involved attacking innocent mainland tourists. They even attacked a police officer till he was knocked down and forced to draw a gun to back off the crowd. Such acts will work in favour of CCP and give them reasons to send in army for maintaining " public order "

About this attack: I watched a 13min video on Channel 4 news last night - we were pre-warned about the violence.
https://www.channel4.com/news/hong-kong-violent-clashes-paralyse-airport-for-second-day

Report by Jonathan Miller

Jonathan Miller Ch4 news:Hong Kong airport is once again paralysed by protesters who want to see their freedoms protected. Freedoms that they were promised over 20 years ago, when the UK handed Hong Kong back to China.

But once again, what began as a peaceful demonstration has ended in chaotic violence.

Will China step in? US President Donald Trump has just announced on social media that his own intelligence services have told him that the Chinese government is moving troops to the border.

.

Reply to Wittgenstein
Thank you so much for that explanation and insight into the cultural and historical background.
I understand better what you meant by accepting a Chinese identity.
The new generation, in particular, are unlikely to surrender their freedoms without a fight.
And they have developed their own multi-varied identities.
I think that is right.

.

Quoting Wittgenstein

I don't think it will happen as the current government in the UK is anti immigration and offering British passport to 7 million hker may be opposed on many other grounds.

I think you have an excellent grasp of the current situation.
It will not happen. Too much too late.

Reply to Amity
I hope that l am proven wrong. The more one thinks about the current situation in hk, the more depressing it gets.

Reply to Wittgenstein
Yes. I think many will be in a state of depression, if not worse.
What kind of philosophical view would see you through ?
West ? East ? Ancient or modern ?

Quoting Wittgenstein

China in the present day is a capitalist dictatorship and they haven't improved much to win the hearts of hker, recently the "education" camps set in Xinjiang province reflect poorly on China's regard for human rights

Also the social credit system: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

Though support might be scattered globally, I can tell you that these young people in Hong Kong are being watched by the young people around me here and not just in a supportive role of "their" desire for freedom, though that is where my energies lay but rather a possible playbook for their own future.

Hope springs eternal.

This is one of the few clear instances where a politics of 'identity' is clearly not in any way at stake: there is no question here of 'identifying' with the mainland or 'identifying' with some ephemeral spirit of Hong Kong. The stakes here are differential and clear: political and juridical autonomy from the state apparatus of the PRC. 'Identity' is secondary, derivative, and mystifying. Analysing the situation in those terms is to lose sight of it entirely. China, of course, would like to frame it in those terms, precisely because it allows it not to talk of the real stakes involved - much better to appeal to some mythical sense of the 'Chinese identity' which HK is supposed to partake in.

A nice lesson in the uselessness - or even harmfulness - of identity politics.

Reply to Wittgenstein

The more one thinks about the current situation in HK, the more one realizes that there's nothing really new here.

Quoting StreetlightX

The stakes here are differential

Like "Oh, we don't wanna be like you, chinese worker, student, businessman. Our fight is not your fight and your fight is not our fight"? This kind of differential?

Reply to StreetlightX I agree with you.

@Wittgenstein is defending the Chinese government's actions in an underhanded way.

Reply to Evil
Identity politics isn't the main reason behind the protests but it is hidden deep within the movement.I am very pessimistic with regards to the success of this movement. It is is absurd to suggest that a bunch of teenagers are going to persuade the powerful CCP party leaders to change their minds. I doubt the sincerity of most western leaders.

Quoting Wittgenstein

it is hidden deep within the movement

It's not hidden, it sets the tone. The only way it is hidden is by being hidden in plain sight. And it's hidden in plain sight precisely because it's the framework. Take as an example the user above who chastised identity politics and then wrote "The stakes here are differential and clear: political and juridical autonomy from the state apparatus of the PRC". As if that's any different from what localists say.

Also, it's not "a bunch of teenagers". The demonstrations are quite massive and there was a big general strike (at last). It's not a cohesive movement either, but the tone is set by localists and deluded liberals. Which is also the position promoted by USA and Co. The CCP couldn't be more satisfied with that. Also, it couldn't care less if Hong Kong were to turn into a full-blown pseudo-democratic liberal representative system. The dynamics between the elites and the working people would remain pretty much the same in HK. The reason the CCP does not want that is because it would disturb the dynamics between itself and the mass of the working people in the mainland. Which apparently should be the aim and the framework of the movement. But it's not. And most probably it won't be in the foreseeable future. So, even in case that protests escalate, the movement will just be crashed in a few days, some people will die and all will return to normal until next time.

Why does the Chinese govt put out false propaganda?

Demonstrators defy ban on march

Reply to Evil
The movement now is directionless and it is more about causing riots, l don't see how any western country would defend public vandalism and use of arson

I hope they riot until Carrie Lam's head is on a stick.

Or more probably, until she flees to the mainland licking the boots of her autocratic overlords.

.

Quoting Wittgenstein

The movement now is directionless and it is more about causing riots,

It maybe 'directionless' in that nobody knows where it is leading. From what I've read it isn't 'more about causing riots'. And indeed it has proven inspirational to other protest movements. There is a recognition that they are probably fighting a losing battle but still they carry on. Why ?
Journalists provide some insight:

Quoting Lily Kuo,Tania Branigan and Verna Yu,

When I ask protesters why they are still coming to the streets, some say they don’t want to see Hong Kong turned into another Chinese city. They cite the detention of Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, activists imprisoned for years on trumped up charges, or the plan for a nationwide “social credit system”, which they see as the culmination of a digital police state. Because I’ve spent the last year reporting on many of these issues, this answer often makes the deepest impression on me...


...Unlike five years ago, this is a leaderless movement. What’s striking is not only its scale and persistence, and the variation and escalation in tactics, but the degree of unity that it has maintained over two-and-a-half months. Even when they disagree over what actions to take, in particular the growing use of force, participants refuse to distance themselves from each other. What also unifies them is that no one pretends to know where this is heading...

...But at the same time, as the movement escalates and some protesters adopt increasingly violent tactics, and dozens get beaten and arrested every week, I am also gripped by a perpetual state of anxiety. What will happen to these young radicals who see themselves as “death fighters” struggling for Hong Kong’s future? What will happen to this wonderful city where I grew up?

Tell our story to the world” many have told me over the past 12 weeks, as they handed me biscuits and drinks, and offered me a hand to get up and down barriers and roadblocks. Their words sounded eerily similar to what Beijing residents told Hong Kong and foreign reporters during the Tiananmen crackdown 30 years ago. Just that this time, it is the Hongkongers who are fighting for their rights and freedom, even though they know there is little hope ahead of them.

“Hong Kong is dying anyway, so we might as well make a last struggle before we die,” many have said.

I feel humbled by their trust in me.

https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2019/aug/31/hong-kong-protests-reporting-inside-guardian

Reply to Amity
The situation is bad.

Quoting Wittgenstein

The article really takes a plunge into the hearts of the protesters and the fear of living in a Chinese city is as real as it can get. The air of freedom and the sense of being unmonitored makes one feel alive and dignified as a human.

I think this underlines the importance of good journalism. Also important, to interview the opposing side. No mean feat with foreign journalists being viewed with suspicion and hostility.
I have been following the video reports of Jonathan Miller for Channel 4 news.
The one, dated 17th August, sticks in my mind. It's only 5 mins...

https://www.channel4.com/news/pro-china-rally-counters-pro-democracy-demo-in-hong-kong

https://www.channel4.com/news/by/jonathan-miller

Quoting Wittgenstein

Everyone who goes to these protests risks getting sentenced to 6~10 years in prison.

It takes courage and a certain desperation.

Quoting Wittgenstein

l don't see how any western country would defend public vandalism and use of arson

You're missing the point, it's more about what they (we) oppose.

Quoting Wayfarer

So if you praise the rule of law, then you need to walk the talk. There are many protest actions that can be made lawfully. But when you break the law in order to protest, then there’s a risk of trashing the very thing you say you’re trying to defend.

That is a fair point. But not all laws are to be praised.
Isn't this about protesting new, oppressive laws which will take away freedom ?
Isn't that worth fighting for?
I don't know. I have never been in that position...

If people are not listened to via peaceful protests - what are the alternatives ?
Escalation of violence on both sides. War ? The outcome doesn't look good...
Knowledge of events is one thing. Helplessness is another.

The latest:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/01/hong-kong-protests-subway-to-airport-shut-down-as-activists-out-in-force

Quoting Amity

Isn't this about protesting new, oppressive laws which will take away freedom ?
Isn't that worth fighting for?

Sure, absolutely. I certainly think all the demonstrations are for a righteous cause and I hope they lead to a good outcome. But I can't see it. At the end of the day the PRC is a one-party state and a dictatorship, I think maybe Hong Kong will never really be able to deal with that.

Protests are a means by which law - and what motivates law - is challanged. Those who would prefer that protests are carnivals may as well join the circus. There they can be party to the ineffectual transgessions of the clowns they'd like democracic citizens to be modelled after.

Quoting StreetlightX

Protests are a means by which law - and what motivates law - is challanged. Those who would prefer that protests are carnivals may as well join the circus.

Of course, there are different kinds of protests for different reasons with different degrees of intensity and flavour. Even within the same day.
Of interest was the Jonathan Miller report on 17th August - it started with a milder form where he talked to a mother protesting with her children. He questioned her wisdom - but she said it was safe just then. Later on, not so much...

Demonstrations which include a 'carnival' atmosphere where there might be singing or chanting; use of sound equipment; on-stage performers, politicians - they have their place.

How about we all take a trip to Hong Kong ?
March in tune with fellow humans. Singing the freedom songs.
Yeah. Not a chance.
We watch and hope it will never happen to us...

My point is simply that the entire point of protests - or at least certain ones, and especially the ones taking place in HK right now - is to challenge the current state of things. Ergo, those who think protest ought to take place within the boundaries and according to the dictates of that state are nothing but state apologists. My 'fellow humans' in HK happen to be family who escaped China a long time ago, precisely to avoid the sort of shit that happens there now, and threatens to bully it's way into HK. As far as I'm concerned it's happening to 'us'. Not that it matters one bit. Those who want protest without any actual protest - a bit of kum ba yah with colourful umbrellas that Western liberals can feel 'sympathy' for - can go hang themselves.

One last thing: for all those peddling the PRC-approved line that if the protestors go 'too far', China will be 'forced' to step in and tsk-tsk, 'game over', let's not forget that such a move would be one that China and China alone would be responsible for, and not the protestors. While it's all very tempting to the blame revealing clothing of a woman for her own assault on the part of misogynist pieces of shit, the political field is no less exempt from such miserable failures of thought.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/harrowing-video-that-shocked-hong-kong-shows-cycle-of-escalating-violence-20190901-p52mv9.html

"Black clad special forces police storm through the train, wielding batons. More police, dubbed “raptors” by HK’s protest movement, stand at the doorways of the carriage - the only escape route - and spray pepper spray directly at screaming passengers. ... More video shows police striking a protester already on the ground, squashed beneath a scrum of police knees. When they realise a South China Morning Post reporter is videoing the scene, they try to block his camera.

"HK lawyer and commentator Kevin Yam says each weekend seems to provide a more likely excuse for Carrie Lam to enact emergency legislation, as the government not only fails to stop street protests but more importantly loses the battle for the HK public’s hearts and minds. "If we look back over the escalation of violence in the last month there is one consistent pattern - when there is a hardcore of protesters that go a little bit too far with their actions, the police always respond with action that goes way further than the protesters.

With Lam refusing to respond to protester’s demands with even the simplest action - formally withdrawing an extradition bill she has said won’t proceed - the cycle of violence in HK appears set to worsen."

Fuck the HK state and their castrated leaders.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/

The Hong Kong protests show quite clearly how Communist China will fail.

First and foremost, the Chinese leadership and the Chinese Communist Party is literally afraid of one thing: their own people.

And once the elite is truly fearful of it's own people, the society is basically incapable of truly developing. That failure will be quite detrimental in the long run. Communist China has a long history of this. Not just Tiananmen Square in 1989, but also earlier.

When the popular first Premier of the People's Republic of China and foreign minister Zhou En Lai died, Chinese people flocked to mourn En Lai. This didn't go well with Mao as the people seemed to be far too eager to mourn Zhou En Lai. Dictators have a natural obsession against any other person gaining popularity, even in death. Hence when actually quite spontaneously two million Chinese gathered in Tiananmen Square to remember Zhou En Lai, it was all too much for the officials and they stopped and 'crushed' the gathering now called the the Tiananmen Incident. For the outsider this sounds totally absurd: that officials attack people mourning the death of a party leader, but in the absurd Maoist China it made total sense. And going against protesters in Hong Kong is in line with history.

Trying to crush demonstrations in Hong Kong makes total sense for China now: enough time has gone since the United Kingdom handed over it's former colony to show the truthful face of the fascist regime. They are in a situation now that they don't need so much the West anymore as they did earlier.

Quoting ssu

The Hong Kong protests show quite clearly how Communist China will fail.

First and foremost, the Chinese leadership and the Chinese Communist Party is literally afraid of one thing: their own people.

I would not conflate the people of HK with the people of China. While I can only speak for Beijing - I've not been outside the capital - the Chinese citizenry are far more loyal, trusting, and accepting of the State than are HKers. The Chinese state commands the allegiance of their people in ways hard to fathom for many Westerns. The State is China, in a way that is not separable into distinct units. That said, this applies far more to the Han majority than any of the other minority ethnicities in the country, who are variously treated like refuse when necessary.

Quoting StreetlightX

the Chinese citizenry are far more loyal, trusting, and accepting of the State than are HKers.

Definately, but that's not the point.

A totalitarian one party cannot be sure of just how loyal and trusting the people are. It inherently cannot know just how much the people truly love it because it is a totalitarian entity, it doesn't accept opposition and there isn't a way to voice out critique any other way than people going to the barricades.

The Chinese Communists can surely pat themselves on their backs of the historical economic growth that China has enjoyed. They can now that there is genuine support for them, but they cannot be sure just how far that goes.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3025641/hong-kong-leader-carrie-lam-announce-formal-withdrawal

Thank bloody Christ.

Quoting ssu

A totalitarian one party cannot be sure of just how loyal and trusting the people are. It inherently cannot know just how much the people truly love it because it is a totalitarian entity, it doesn't accept opposition and there isn't a way to voice out critique any other way than people going to the barricades.

Totalitarian governments work pretty well especially when there's a state religion that backs up the legitimacy of the government. The love of the people isn't needed. Things have to get pretty bad before people put aside their daily lives and devote themselves to revolution. All is well as long as there is some measure of prosperity.

Still, it's a good time to watch Zhang Yimou's Hero, which explains that the Chinese are willing to sacrifice for the sake of peace, even if it shatters their hearts in the process. Are we all like that?

Reply to StreetlightX :cheer:

Reply to StreetlightX https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cziwwl/if_youve_come_to_congratulate_us_dont_our/

Reply to Evil Yeah, the moves continue...

(what became a) double post

Im wondering as to why HK is even considered a threat in PRC eyes? Perhaps ssu can chime in here and expose more of the blind obedience demanded from HKers by the PRC?

Protester shot by live bullet in HK

I gather from some of my HK sources that he whole business is getting mixed up with the Trump/China conflict, with American sources providing all sorts of useful subsidies for the protestors. Pity: it will stop their case being seriously heard by the Chinese bosses.

Quoting iolo

Pity: it will stop their case being seriously heard by the Chinese bosses.

A Chinese friend tells me there was never any chance of that. Do you disagree?

Reply to iolo I have not found anything remotely trustworthy on this so I find it suspect that this would be the case. There's some American flag waving as a symbol of democracy (weird, I know).

One ought to treat all reports of American intervention into HK with suspicion: not only because it partakes of the shitty trope of Western saviours swooping in from without, but also because it denies the agency of the Hong Kong people as acting on their own behalf. Given what the HK people have been through and continue to go through, it's almost insulting.

It also plays right into the hands of PRC propagandists who would write off the protests as nothing more than an American neoimperialist plot. It is one of the single best ways to discredit the entire movement. This isn't to say that the US isn't probably poking their filthy fingers into Hong Kong pies, only that those issues should be side stories of auxiliary interest at best.

Reply to frank

Frank - 'A Chinese friend tells me there was never any chance of that. Do you disagree?'

Some sort of diplomatic fudge, conceivably: they still find Hong Kong commercially useful.

benkei - competitive international politics is deeply depressing, isn't it!

Quoting iolo

benkei - competitive international politics is deeply depressing, isn't it!

I'm not sure how this relates to my earlier comment. What do you mean?

Reply to Benkei Quoting Benkei

I'm not sure how this relates to my earlier comment. What do you mean?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Automatically the people on one side are convinced while those on the other believe it is propaganda. My informants had various political positions, so it seems very likely, but we won't be allowed to know, will we? Don't you, as a person involved with a philosophy site, find that depressing?

For those who don't know, HK just invoked emergency powers to ban face masks in public places. This will be interesting. I can't imagine that this will have any other effect than to further inflame the protests - masks are readily available and this seems almost deliberately designed to provoke altercations and civil disobedience. They are already in wide circulatuon and are useful to stave off the effects of tear gas and capture by facial recognition. It reads as an attempt to push the protesters off a 'legitimacy cliff', and it makes an already volatile situation potentially even more deadly.

The lease was up and the handover is a done deal. The rock was going to be returned to China; and now it has. After expiration of the transitional special administrative regime, Hong Kong is supposed to become an ordinary Chinese municipality while everybody who lives there will become ordinary Chinese citizens. There is just not going to be any backpedalling on the provisions of the handover treaty. Even though the Brits, unlike the Portuguese in Macao, were politically not in a position to offer UK passports to every Hong Kong resident, the UK government has tremendously facilitated obtaining passports in Canada, Australia and New Zealand for Hong Kong residents. In that sense, anybody who wanted to leave the rock has had ample opportunity to do so.

Quoting iolo

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Automatically the people on one side are convinced while those on the other believe it is propaganda. My informants had various political positions, so it seems very likely, but we won't be allowed to know, will we? Don't you, as a person involved with a philosophy site, find that depressing?

Ah, I'm sure you have good reason to believe them. All I have to say is that it isn't corroborated so you might want to take it with a grain of salt because of it.

I don't find it depressing though. It makes it interesting how to come to an accurate assessment about situations. Usually withholding judgment for a month or three is a good rule of thumb for anything political.

Quoting StreetlightX

For those who don't know, HK just invoked emergency powers to ban face masks in public places. This will be interesting. I can't imagine that this will have any other effect than to further inflame the protests - masks are readily available and this seems almost deliberately designed to provoke altercations and civil disobedience. They are already in wide circulatuon and are useful to stave off the effects of tear gas and capture by facial recognition. It reads as an attempt to push the protesters off a 'legitimacy cliff', and it makes an already volatile situation potentially even more deadly.

I thought they're already branded as rioters and over the legitimacy cliff?

Reply to Benkei Not illegitimate enough to hail down live bullets upon them en masse. The protestors have so far been supremely disciplined - much too disciplined to make a protest-ending move on without a cover of pretence. This might just provide it.

And then out will come the bootlickers saying 'tsk tsk they should have been less demanding, see what happened now?'. Just watch for that reaction.

Long may this continue...

Join: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/

Reply to StreetlightX We've seen with the Krim how countries will react to an escalation.

I'm not very optimistic.

Reply to Benkei
Annexation of a large part of a neighbouring state and basically starting a war there is a little bit different than one sovereign state having internal political problems.

Who remembers anymore that Spain was a short time ago on the brink of coming apart?
Who cares?



The trick here is not to kill people. Killing protesters is a taboo. Killing people makes an ugly statistic. It looks bad. Other countries have to respond to it...especially when they aren't your allies. You are way out of line when you start killing protesters. Water canons, rubber bullets, first aid to detained protesters so that they don't die, controlling the media and the internet feed from the demonstrations and simply controlling the discourse about the events is the more professional strategy these days.

Reply to Benkei Quoting Benkei

I don't find it depressing though. It makes it interesting how to come to an accurate assessment about situations. Usually withholding judgment for a month or three is a good rule of thumb for anything political.

All that means is that the various powers-that-be have made up their minds what to say. They will never give out any serious facts.

More good news

Dunno what they expected with the mask ban. Watch them use this to (more) violently crack down.

Quoting StreetlightX

Dunno what they expected with the mask ban. Watch them use this to (more) violently crack down.

They expected the protesters not to listen of course, precisely to get the excuse they needed to crack down on them. BBC is already on board I see with calling it riots. Violent protest can still be protest. It's the continuation of politics by different means (pace Von Clausewitz).

I'm wondering what a sensible way forward is, strategically speaking, for the protesters.

Maybe they should invoke the right to self-determination? Hong Kong has a different political system, the majority speaks a different language than mainland China and the cultural differences are laid bare in the recent protests.

Quoting Benkei

I'm wondering what a sensible way forward is, strategically speaking, for the protesters.

Not being there, it's hard to presume to say. But what they've been doing - the relative discipline of sustained, unyielding demand(s) - seems to be working very well. The mask ban - as much as it is a cynical exercise to incite violence - seems to me to speak to an underlying desperation and insecurity on the part of the authorities (which can cut either way - the desperate are the most dangerous).

Reply to StreetlightX Sometimes a bit of distance actually helps but I'm stumped anyways.

I thought there was a mask ban but here's Carrie Lam's veiled threat:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/08/hong-kongs-carrie-lam-refuses-to-rule-out-asking-china-for-help-to-quell-protests

And it must be said: at least the US is doing something with its Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act. Which is more than can be said of the Netherlands or the EU at this point.

How do you fight a surveillance state?

Reply to BenkeiNothing against Netherlands (and not much against the EU), but you are right. With all it's shortcomings and hypocrisy, the US still stands out as a beacon for democracy and freedom. Sort of.

Reply to ssu Not for much longer.

Required Reading.

http://chuangcn.org/2019/09/three-months-of-insurrection/

"Years from now, we will continue to look back and marvel at all the incredible things that emerged in response to the concrete problems that insurgents have faced over the course of the past three months.

In response to teenagers having no homes to return to because they were practically “disowned” by their parents for attending demonstrations and remaining on the streets when states of emergency were declared, people created a network of open apartments to which young partisans could retreat and stay temporarily. In response to minibuses, buses, and subway trains no longer being safe for escaping protesters, carpool networks were formed via Telegram to “pick kids up from school.” We encountered elderly drivers who didn’t even know how to operate Telegram, but who drove repeatedly around the “hot spots” reported by the radio news, watching for running protesters who needed a quick ride out of danger.

In response to young people not having any work or enough money to buy food at the front lines, working people prepared supplies of supermarket and restaurant coupons and handed these out to people in gear before large-scale confrontations. This remarkable fact is often used by conservatives to suggest that foreign powers are behind this “color revolution,” because… where did all the money for these coupons come from? There has to be somebody bankrolling this! They cannot fathom that any worker would be willing to reach into his own pockets in order to help a person that he does not know.

In response to the suffering, trauma, and sleeplessness induced by long-term exposure to tear gas and police violence, whether experienced first-hand or via graphic live feeds, support networks appeared offering counsel and care. In response to kids not having enough time to do their homework because they are out on the streets all night, Telegram channels appeared offering free tutoring services. In response to students “not being able to have an education” because they were on strike, people organized seminars on all manner of political subjects at schools that were sympathetic to the cause and also in public spaces."

Reply to frank Don't be too pessimistic.

Quoting ssu

Don't be too pessimistic.

Ok. I was just thinking this morning about how the ground is always moving under our feet. If we don't want it to move, we cringe and scream that the sky is falling as if that might make it stop. It's a cry to the great parent in the sky to save us.

But when we want it to move so it tears down the evil constructions we see before us, our hearts burst with joy to see the wrath of the gods come down upon the wicked, those assholes are getting what they deserve. Woo hoo!

Or maybe they aren't evil. It's just that their time has come. They lived and now they return to the dusty earth from which they rose. Amen.

Pro-democracy politician's ear bitten off

Police shoot man from point-blank range

Please join: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/

HK 'police' (chinese army) attack pregnant woman

Why are they demonstrating in Hong Kong when defeat is certain? The Chinese government will soon step in and crush the uprising, and then nothing will be left of it. Beijing’s grip will be tighter than ever before, and not only will the demonstrators have gained nothing, they will be left with less than they had. That is the most likely scenario.

So why are they doing it? Is it possible to defend an action, any action, that is overwhelmingly likely to fail?

They are fighting against windmills. No, worse, they are risking utter defeat to fight someone who can’t be defeated. Is that ever permissible?

Even if you are fighting for a good cause, it’s unethical to fight if you risk great casualties and there’s no chance of winning.

Maybe if your life were intolerable anyway, such suicidal behavior could be excused, but that was hardly the case in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong has much more political freedom than the rest of China, and that is not the real issue in this conflict. They simply want more independence from the mainland – a wish that is completely unrealistic.

In the West we enjoy giving support to principles, especially when they have no substance.

Quoting Congau

They simply want more independence from the mainland – a wish that is completely unrealistic.

Actually this is what they want:

1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
2. An independent commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality
3. Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”
4. Amnesty for arrested protesters
5. Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive

And they are doing it because fuck the Chinese government and their bootlicker supporters

Reply to Congau Your fatalistic attitude is essentially a form of bootlicking.

Reply to Congau Street light summarized the demands -- which were stated in an NPR report from Hong Kong. They are not, according to a spokeswoman in Hong Kong, seeking independence from China. There are supposed to be two systems; they want their part.

They might be defeated, true. However, they are not betting on a horserace; they are demanding what was supposed to be their system (one country, two systems). They are also (gratuitously) providing a fine example of resistance to ordinary, banal tyranny for other people around the world who are unhappy with their governments' behavior.

Not all civil battles are won, just as not all military battles are won. But if the goal is sufficiently worthwhile, it is worth the risk of failure. Your lickity-boot approach only makes sense if nothing much is at stake.

Reply to Bitter Crank If only the issue hadn't got mixed up with American imperialism. It's more and more like the Cold War, alas!

Quoting Congau

Why are they demonstrating in Hong Kong when defeat is certain? The Chinese government will soon step in and crush the uprising, and then nothing will be left of it. Beijing’s grip will be tighter than ever before, and not only will the demonstrators have gained nothing, they will be left with less than they had. That is the most likely scenario.

Because the totalitarianism of the Chinese Communist Party makes it is inherently weak.

And someone who has had the taste of freedom won't forget it.

China will exist, but Communist China can go the way of the Soviet Union.

Reply to ssu That sentiment might have had some plausibility twenty years and six months ago.

Reply to SophistiCat

Also, now

Reply to StreetlightX
Those are the formal demands at the moment (at first it was only the extradition issue) but obviously such dry formalities alone could not ignite this amount of popular support. The demonstrators are anti-Chinese just like Catalonians are anti-Spanish and some Scots are anti-English, but at least they possess enough realism not to seek outright independence.

Quoting Bitter Crank

Not all civil battles are won, just as not all military battles are won. But if the goal is sufficiently worthwhile, it is worth the risk of failure

I strongly hold that no battle, civil or military, should be fought if there’s no chance of winning it. That would be the same as deliberately causing misery and achieving no good, the very definition of an immoral act from a utilitarian standpoint.

If the situation in Hong Kong were so miserable that there was really nothing to lose, resistance out of sheer desperation could be permissible. The Uighurs in Xinjiang may be in such a position, but the people of Hong Kong are not that bad off. They have more civil liberties than mainland Chinese and materially they are far from desperate.

Quoting Bitter Crank

Your lickity-boot approach only makes sense if nothing much is at stake.

If those demands were really what it is all about, there wouldn’t be much at stake. It makes no sense to risk getting yourself crushed just to make sure that prisoners can stay in your local jail. Evidently that’s not the real issue.
What’s at stake then? Either nothing much or something utterly Utopian and for that they risk losing what they already have.

Quoting Congau

If the situation in Hong Kong were so miserable that there was really nothing to lose, resistance out of sheer desperation could be permissible. The Uighurs in Xinjiang may be in such a position, but the people of Hong Kong are not that bad off. They have more civil liberties than mainland Chinese and materially they are far from desperate.

Nonsense. As if one ought to wait for concentration camps before raising hell. And your blithe dismissal of the 5 demands says more about you than about the protestors. If they are such 'dry formalities', then they should be implemented, post haste.

It seems like madness, but this is needed against the remorseless, fascist chinese government

Quoting Evil

It seems like madness, but this is needed against the remorseless, fascist chinese government

That's why China won't pass the West. The Communists will fear so much their own people, they will fear that the protests now emerging in Hong Kong might spread like an infection that they will ruin their future themselves. As I've said, they haven't forgotten Tianamen Square.

When there is no safety valve of the ballot box, it will just go worse and worse.

Quoting ssu

Hong Kong might spread like an infection that they will ruin their future themselves. As

It hasn't, though. Prosperity is a strong drug.

The despotic chinese government regime's brutality continues: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dyknwr/modern_civil_war_please_help/

Listen to the man at 2.27mins:

Good news: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50501747

Fuck chinese government expansionism attempts.

Chinese regime is the most insidious expression of contemporary fascism.

Reply to ovdtogtNot only that.

China is also a great example that a fascist system can adapt to the present and thrive economically. At least for a while, that is. On the long run I'm not so sure: Government lead capitalism can go only so far and once it has caught up and it ought to be truly innovative, then the problems start. Freedom isn't something you just can confine to the economy and technical innovation and otherwise limit.

Reply to ssu Fascism is ultimately about power and wealth. The ones in power will never stop accumulating power and wealth until the gross of the population is poor and powerless and revolts. The French and the Russian revolution will come to China eventually claiming many millions of lives.

Reply to ovdtogt Yet there's one extremely important difference with fascism and let's say a country like the US, which you could argue to be a liberal plutocracy (with the classic definition of liberalism used here). Now it can be that in both cases the actual leaders of the country can indeed be very rich. But it's the way how the state operates that makes the difference.

In a liberal democracy, a group of extremely rich people that do have much power simply doesn't make at a unified leadership that fascism has, which typically has a leader (dictator) and/or a small cabal that share a unified political agenda and lead the country. In the US, in comparison of China, you have billionaires like Koch brothers and George Soros, Peter Thiel, Marc Zuckerberg and Elon Musk etc. which have quite different agendas and political views. This means that this group simply doesn't decide on a coherent single plan on what to do with the US. In a fascist state it's all about the great plans. Just as we see in China.

Fascist governments simply operate like this. They can be smart at what to do and where to invest, but they simply cannot imagine some new industry that nobody has seen yet. Hence it's the government centralization and the oppressive ideology of fascism that are the structural problems.

It's rather difficult to think that in a fascist state something like the PC revolution or the social media would appear. The commercial use of the internet or the technological revolutions in oil production that have made the US again a large oil producer didn't happen because of a government plan (even if especially the internet does have roots in military applications). Then when we go to what kind of effect the limitation of freedom has on the people and many problems emerge.

I don't see fascism (the accumulation of wealth, property) at one extreme and communism (all property is publicly owned) as a black or white issue. It is in these extremes that society breaks down.
Society functions best when it is able to operate in the grey area (Liberal Democracy's). But these forces are present in society. It is when one or the other starts to become more dominant that we get ourselves in trouble. As with everything one has to find the balance between the duality of things.

Coming back to Hong Kong, we should remember that for the Chinese Communist Party the crackdown on Tianamen Square in 1989 was success story: it stopped political turmoil and after it China has seen economic growth on a scale that hasn't been seen historically. They can look back and say that was the correct thing to do. They will see these protests a threat that they have successfully countered once before. And they have already taken their time, so they don't seem to be desperate.

Reply to ssu you seem to framing china as some sort of unstoppable force. The truth is they have many internal problems

I spoke to someone who was born in Hong Kong but lived in the Netherlands since she was 9. She thinks where Hong Kong was still important to China in 1997 nowadays it simply isn't anymore. Her guess is the whole financial industry is going to move in the near future to Shenzhen.

Reply to Benkei shenzhen is a fucking ghost town comprised of shitely-made crumbling buildings

Good news: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50531408

Reply to Evil Among my favorite bits:

"Some notable names ran in the elections, including pro-Beijing lawmaker Junius Ho, one of the most controversial politicians in the city, who suffered a shock defeat."

Reply to StreetlightX Does it really matter though in light of China's clear disdain for democracy? I'd be surprised to see a change in policy because of the outcome of these elections. But here's hoping I'm totally wrong about that. :cheer:

Reply to Benkei It's worth celebrating what small victories are achieved. And frankly, just seeing Ho - a walking, breathing piece of human excrement - lose his seat is worth basking in for whatever moment of pleasure it gives. In any case it totally deprives Lam and her cabinet of their go-to 'silent majority' excuse when talking of the protestors.

So at least Trump just signed two laws that are more or less supportive of the demonstrators in Hong Kong. EU, I'm looking at you...

Quoting Evil

you seem to framing china as some sort of unstoppable force. The truth is they have many internal problems

I've always stated that they have huge problems starting from the structural problems of a totalitarian system. Fascism is an inherently weak and frail system: it views it's own members as potential enemies. It basically has to have an enemy, a threat to justify it's limitations on freedom. I wouldn't describe the present system as an unstoppable force, what it is incapable of doing is reinventing itself and renovating an otherwise bankrupt political system.

Reply to BenkeiGood move from Trump.

EU likely won't do a thing.

Perhaps they (the EU) will go with classic Finnish response line give earlier on any international incident: "We urge all participants to show restraint and stride to a peaceful solution on this matter." :wink:

Something on those lines appears to be the EU way:

The EU has consistently called for a de-escalation of violence and a return to dialogue, and on Monday it responded to the siege at Hong Kong Polytechnic University by saying police use of force should be “strictly proportionate” and urging all sides to exercise restraint.

Quoting ssu

Something on those lines appears to be the EU way:

The EU has consistently called for a de-escalation of violence and a return to dialogue, and on Monday it responded to the siege at Hong Kong Polytechnic University by saying police use of force should be “strictly proportionate” and urging all sides to exercise restraint.

:vomit:

Quoting Benkei

Trump just signed two laws that are more or less supportive of the demonstrators in Hong Kong

Americans will always try to stand with people seeking liberty. :strong:

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff Except when they don't. operation condor

It's a case-by-case thing. In this case I think the US administration and legislation have the moral high ground. In my opinion they usually don't so that makes it remarkable.

Quoting Benkei

It's a case-by-case thing. In this case I think the US administration and legislation have the moral high ground. In my opinion they usually don't so that makes it remarkable.

I agree it is a case-by-case thing when we take the time to understand before intervening.
Unfortunately multiple administrations, on occasion, have acted before thinking all factors through. It is akin to "Ready, Fire then Aim" it's not a good idea but we have done it before in intervening around the world.
In the case of Hong Kong, I believe we as the USA, need to make our government's alliance with the people of Hong Kong known. And known boldly.
I do not wish for any other USA government invovment with the protesters or by extension with China but no one knows where this uprising will lead or how to get there. But we are trying to support them. For the love of God they have been signing our national anthem AND might I say THEY know the words better than the average US citizen.
Watching the RT live, these protesters are young Warriors and very smart about their strategy. I try to imagine such an uprising here in the USA and I wonder will it be citizens against our government or citizens against citizens. The climate in the country is so divided right now that I do wonder if it would evolve into a civil war.

A friend visited Africa with her son. She said the Chinese make propaganda ads claiming to employ Africans, but their labor is actually convicts.

Also, Obama's father was from a lower class tribe. If Obama had been born in Africa, he couldn't have become a political leader.

Chinese government due to introduce face scans for phone users

Reply to Evil They are very excited of the idea of created an AI enforced police state.

Computers and algorithms make it possible. In the old days you had to have an army of secret police members to listen to the phone calls, read the letters and go through all the surveillance data. Now it can be done with AI.

There's going too far and then there's this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/g3hu2r/at_least_14_prodemocratic_politicians_arrested_in/

Reply to Evil It will be sad when they take over Australia.

Violating human rights/being Orwellian as fuck while nobody's looking...

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/ghghb4/this_is_how_they_treat_a_democratically_elected/

That's not water - it's pepper spray.

CCP must be stopped.

https://support.google.com/youtube/thread/19190975?hl=en

Gee wonder whyyyy

Holy shit now they want to pass laws against making fun of the Chinese national anthem with max penalties of 3 years.

Australian student facing expulsion from University of Queensland for supporting Democracy in Hong Kong:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52759578

Quoting Professor Death

Australian student facing expulsion from University of Queensland for supporting Democracy in Hong Kong:

Sad. China owns Australia.

Reply to Professor Death I guess that was that for the Democratic protests in HK that garnered exactly no meaningful support from any Western government. Fuck the CCP and fuck the EU for being the pussies we all know they are.

Hong Kong 'no longer autonomous from China': https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52824839

Orwell would turn in his grave etc etc... This is getting beyond a joke now. CCP must be taken out before it's too late.

It's so uttrely tragic :( It's hard to say anything - just been watching the events play out in utter dispair. The rest of the world will bang on about China's 'role' in COVID, and barely a peep about the death of one of the few semi-functioning democracies left in the world.

Well, the Chinese are having a field day with the riots in the US and the police crack down on them as an excuse for their actions against HK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52877411

Hong Kong police have banned a vigil marking the Tiananmen Square crackdown for the first time in 30 years. Authorities said the decision was due to health concerns over coronavirus. However, there are fears this may end the commemorations, as China seeks to impose a new law making undermining its authority a crime in the territory.

And this is how it begins.

Today is the anniversary of the Tienanmen square massacre. This is what it was like just before:

Reply to StreetlightX

Thousands of Hongkongers defy police ban to commemorate Tiananmen Massacre victims at Victoria Park (Hong Kong Free Press)

https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/04/thousands-of-hongkongers-defy-police-ban-to-commemorate-tiananmen-massacre-victims-at-victoria-park/?fbclid=IwAR0Cn0pHDqWNnyT_uJ1PPPRhOpApm_2_NohZZXwOTkxNmYEHiJoN416Nn3E

Reply to Professor Death Awesome.

I actually prefer multiple types of Rulers of the countries of the world to a certain extent. What I mean is have all these types of rulers (republics, fasist, Communism, and such) just for research purposes.

With Hong Kong, I hoped to continue this system of one country two systems just for comparison of economy and technological advancement.

Reply to tim wood "I cannot, ultimately, understand opposition to freedom. In a free society, everything approaches being the best it can be, and more importantly, has reasonably good error-correction built in. And if I am correct, then opponents of freedom, whoever they are, however many they are, and wherever found, are truly enemies of the people, enemies of everyone."
-Tim Wood

Well Tim, you are aware that say something is close to best or any comparison must be a starndard to base itself. It may be that your standards prebuilt a free society(overly broad for me to pass Judgement in whether I agree or not) in its definition of best like how gravity is built in Planck units so that saying why gravity is so weak compared to other fundamentle forces is mraningless for firce of gravity is part of the standard.

Quoting BB100

(republics, fasist, Communism, and such)

That would be fascist in the case of the chinese government, then.

Reply to BB100 People's lives are not a bloody scientific experiment for your intellectual edification.

Reply to StreetlightX Whether they are for research in any subject or not,(I was saying as a collective group of people, Nomads were not in such groups), does not mean they could not be gained from them.

Reply to BB100 Yes, and there was alot to be 'gained' from Unit 271 experiments too - experiments which are rightly abhorred by any human today. Your statement is irresponsible and reprehensible.

As far as I know, I have not broken any rules of this forum, there not responsible for any wrong. As for the reprehensible, your opinion which I do not share in context to what I said in these comments.

Reply to BB100 I didn't say you had broken any rules, I rendered a judgement about the very silly thing you said.

Reply to StreetlightX Understood, Just checking on your discussions right now. Interesting Planonist discussion.

Resist the CCP.

If you haven't already, now is the time to reject business and stop buying products from mainland China.

Galwan Valley: Satellite images 'show China structures' on India border https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53174887

Stop doing business with/buying products from mainland China everyone. Resist the CCP.

It's all over: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hongkong-security/china-passes-controversial-hong-kong-security-law-idUSKBN241061

"Hong Kong is one of many developing conflicts between Beijing and Washington, on top of trade issues, the South China Sea and the coronavirus pandemic.

Britain has said the security law would violate China's international obligations and its handover agreement, which promised Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy for 50 years under a "one country, two systems" formula.

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yoshihide Suga said on Tuesday that if China had passed the security law for Hong Kong, it was "regrettable".

The European Parliament earlier in June passed a resolution saying the European Union should take China to the International Court of Justice in The Hague if Beijing imposed the law."

How much more CCP imperialism should we take?

Reply to Professor Death :sad:

Reply to StreetlightX time for a new thread about CCP imperialism

But nobody seems to care. Nobody even bothers talking about it on here except for @StreetlightX

Reply to Professor Death There's nobody here defending the PRC so not much discussion to be had I'm afraid. I read this thread though. It's good the UK is offering a special visa regime I suppose but that's not really going to solve the problem.

Quoting Benkei

It's good the UK is offering a special visa regime I suppose but that's not really going to solve the problem.

More aggressive deterrents are necessary. How much more ground will democracy lose? The CCP won't stop here.

CCP's Gestapo are in charge of HK now

Reply to Professor Death I don't see sufficient awareness with most Europeans for any type of action being likely. A statement here and a statement there and in a few months everybody will have forgotten while thousands of protesters will rot in jail.

Reply to Benkei potentially international protestors too: https://thechinacollection.org/hong-kongs-national-security-law-first-look/

"The [Hong Kong national security] Law’s provisions on its scope have drawn a lot of attention. Article 38 states, “This Law shall apply to offences under this Law committed against the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region from outside the Region by a person who is not a permanent resident of the Region.” I know of no reason not to think it means what it appears to say: it is asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over every person on the planet."

Reply to Professor Death Yes, this is not the first time this has happened with laws. Some countries accept universal jurisdiction over human rights cases as well and then there's the US FATCA regulation. It appears to be the relatively new normal.

Reply to Professor Death It's just so wildly upsetting. China just doesn't give a shit, and it has its hands in too many pies for many other nations to dare try and speak up. I will say, I have no doubt that it is not an accident that what is happening is happening when a jackass like Trump is in power in the States. China can - and has been - walking all over the US, and Trump is too much of an authoritarian loving fuckwit to do anything other than the bare minimum to help. And the way in which he's treated his own people in the recent civil rights protests - let's just say he's abdicated any international leverage the States might have had in trying to countervail China's treatment of Hong Kong.

We're losing another democracy on this planet, and even as depilated as it was, it was still held a promise that now doesn't exist anymore. I have family who have posted pictures on the streets there and... I don't even know what to say. They are images straight out of dystopian science fiction films.

Reply to StreetlightX Trump the Enabler.

Let's wait and see what happens in November I guess..

The silver lining is that Johnson has offered UK citizenship to the majority of Hong Kong's population, approx 3.5 million. I wonder if he told all his racist supporters, the Brexit party might now rear its ugly head again.

Just the other day he tried to reassure his supporters that he isn't a Communist, with mass public support and impending tax rises.

Reply to Punshhh Well, from HKers perspective, they are resolutely anti-communist (China), so it's very possible for BoJo to use this to shore up his anti-communist credentials.

Reply to Punshhh To which the Chinese Ambassador already reacted as if it was the worst insult ever. Fuck the PRC.

Reply to StreetlightX Yes, so the racists (who are right wing) in the UK want to get rid of the EU and EU nationals, because they don't want immigrants stealing our jobs and using the NHS, especially socialist ones. But it's alright to invite in 3.5 million immigrants to save them from communism, whether they steal our jobs and use the NHS or not.

My first thought is that the working class supporters of the government and Brexit, aren't rightwing. They are left of centre and won't want to replace those pesky Europeans with pesky Hong Kong folk.

This is good, let's keep fucking over the CCP in any way possible: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53320715

'Microsoft and Zoom have said they will not process data requests made by the Hong Kong authorities while they take stock of a new security law.

They follow Facebook, Google, Twitter and the chat app Telegram, which had already announced similar "pauses" in compliance over the past two days.'

Reply to Professor Death I am boycotting Chinese goods, namely huawai products, because they won't be supported by Apple, google and Microsoft. I will update my IPad now before they become scarce and stock up on tools made in China before the prices start to go up.

Quoting Punshhh

and stock up on tools made in China before the prices start to go up.

Why bother? Start the boycott today

Reply to Professor Death Because all the products which are currently produced in China are going to go up in price, or become scarce.

Reply to Professor Death Reply to Professor Death Reply to Professor Death Reply to Professor Death Reply to Professor Death

China has transformed from a totalitarian Communist state into a totalitarian National Socialist state.
However, unlike National Socialist Germany, it has a ruling oligarchy, rather than a single leader, and it is implicitly, rather than explicitly, racist. National Socialist China practices a government subsidized form of capitalism with respect to major industries, while permitting limited free enterprise. Hong Kong and Taiwan are China's Sudetenland and Austria.

Reply to charles ferraro

And Xinjiang muslims are China's Jewish population?

This is now and that was then. The Nazis were defeated. The threat of the CCP is very much here, now.

Reply to Professor Death

Yes, the Nazis were completely defeated in World War II but, unfortunately, China's government today proves that the totalitarian ideology of Fascism certainly was not. It survived! Why do the Antifa (ANTIFASCIST) goons exist at all, anywhere, if your claim is true?

It is Communist governments that ultimately self-destruct, but not Fascist governments. Fascist governments have to be defeated by force-of-arms because, given the availability of adequate resources, they can continue to deliver the economic goods to the people.

By contrast, Communist governments self-destruct because, bottom line, pure Communist ideology and practice just cannot continue to deliver the economic goods to the people. This is why China, in order to survive and compete successfully economically, voluntarily transitioned to a state controlled National Socialist/Capitalist Fascist government.

China's Muslims are being persecuted "reeducated" in concentration camps aren't they? Senators Cruse and Rubio seem to think so and, as a result, are now being sanctioned by China.

Fucking bomb the Cunts:

Published today.

Fuck the CCP etc etc

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-current-cell-phones-not-made-in-China#:~:text=Xiaomi%2C%20Gionee%20-%20made%20in%20India,some%20ZenFones%20made%20in%20Taiwan.&text=If%20you're%20looking%20for,Motorola%2C%20LG%2C%20and%20Samsung.

My first little step on boycotting China.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/4d8285a2-eff0-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195

Samsung is a good choice as well.

Reply to Benkei In terms of products generally, buy second-hand, or check the origin of new products/parts.

"If countries having an outbreak [are] deciding to not share that information, there have to be consequences."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/27/china-truth-coronavirus-panorama-xi-jinping?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0nkxojQMyCQuw7oZz3iwxCsgZkQ2WQub8Jq08RGuzC6_LM2tUMlitt0JQ

From Private Eye

"India and China are trying to out-build each other along their disputed Himalayan border."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53171124

Go India! :clap:

"Hong Kong's new hotline to report breaches of the controversial national security law has received more than 1,000 calls within hours of going live.

Residents can anonymously send in images, audio and videos if they suspect someone has violated the law.

The law, introduced earlier this year, criminalises secession, subversion and collusion with foreign forces.

It has already led to several arrests of activists, and has silenced protesters.

The maximum punishment under the law is life in prison."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54835955

STOP buying products/using services originating from mainland China. The Chinese government needs to wane.

Quoting Wayfarer

But when you break the law in order to protest, then there’s a risk of trashing the very thing you say you’re trying to defend.

I think they might say in reply that there is no law to be broken. Chinese Communist leaders have the final say on everything. They are the law, which is equivalent to saying there is no law.

China's 'dark' fishing fleets are plundering the world's oceans

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-19/how-china-is-plundering-the-worlds-oceans/12971422?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_content=facebook&utm_campaign=abc_news_web&fbclid=IwAR0azLBhce-R4r2xDvSqaprDbZaGL_a1kpBWoILxppV4gSzZ1BuHazHHqOQ

Quoting Wayfarer

Totally on the side of the protestors but having trouble figuring out what they want to achieve.

Same here. I see no chance of tiny little Hong Kong being able to stand up to the largest dictatorship in world history. If Hong Kongers want to be free, it's time to bail and find a way out of there.

"Hong Kong: Children to be taught about national security law.

Children as young as six are to learn about crimes under Hong Kong's national security law.

Schools will be asked to monitor children's behaviour and report any support for the pro-democracy movement, as part of new education rules."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55948773

The world seriously needs a pushback against the CCP.

Stop buying pointless shit from China.

"The CCP has banned BBC World News from broadcasting on its territory, according to a decision announced on Thursday by its broadcasting regulator."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56030340

Continued destruction of words from the CCP.

A horrifying thread about what is happening in HK atm.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420666980220934[/tweet]

Reply to StreetlightX CCP did that.