Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?
Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?
Nothing that I know of, other than personal renderings or hear say, has ever been produced or provide to show the existence of a supernatural realm or entities. The ancients did not seem to think the supernatural was a reality. https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
No entity, good or evil, have ever manifested itself in a provable way, even though some think god is Omni-present and that Satan was given the ability and power to deceive us all.
I think that those who believe in supernatural entities are being taken advantage of by fraudulent preachers who recognize our propensity of over imagination, which we all have, as shown in the Princess Alice experiments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWx_uVDh4Cw
I can see some benefits in imaginary thinking to validate or refute ideas but that is about it.
Is belief or faith in the supernatural a worthy idea for us or is it a tool used by lying preachers intent on fleecing sheeple?
If there is no supernatural god, should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide instead of idolizing imaginary supernatural gods that are demonstrably less moral than humans?
Regards
DL
Nothing that I know of, other than personal renderings or hear say, has ever been produced or provide to show the existence of a supernatural realm or entities. The ancients did not seem to think the supernatural was a reality. https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
No entity, good or evil, have ever manifested itself in a provable way, even though some think god is Omni-present and that Satan was given the ability and power to deceive us all.
I think that those who believe in supernatural entities are being taken advantage of by fraudulent preachers who recognize our propensity of over imagination, which we all have, as shown in the Princess Alice experiments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWx_uVDh4Cw
I can see some benefits in imaginary thinking to validate or refute ideas but that is about it.
Is belief or faith in the supernatural a worthy idea for us or is it a tool used by lying preachers intent on fleecing sheeple?
If there is no supernatural god, should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide instead of idolizing imaginary supernatural gods that are demonstrably less moral than humans?
Regards
DL
Comments (128)
Neither. Except perhaps in the case of the fleecing of the flock by those American consumerist mega churches. But not because science has all possible ontology completely sussed. How could it?
But for two related reasons:
Why do you say so?
When one takes into account the amount of intelligence that has been invested in attempts to prove the existence of God, it is hard to answer entirely in the negative.
But of course, that is a completely different thing from believing that their arguments are valid, or their conclusions true. Extremely intelligent people can be quite delusional. Or simply wrong.
Belief may be a sucker's game. But intelligence on its own does not grant immunity to it.
If you assume that religious belief is the game of the stupid, you are mistaken. Some of the brightest minds of humanity are and have been religious, not only in the way Albert Einstein embrazed Spinozism, whichis not really a religion. All those men who invented "science" during the early modern period where believers too, some more, some less, but none of them was an atheist or naturalist
Anything that helps us to deal with the real world is a worthy idea, I think. I find my beliefs form a sort of scaffold on which to assemble my own personal mental model of the world, to hold and connect my ideas and beliefs. And of course, any worthy idea could potentially be used to fleece the unwary. I don't think that supports or takes away from the idea itself, do you?
It's wise to be a cynic toward shared beliefs rooted in impossible knowledge. Where this is the case - shared belief in something that has no existence - it is wise to go ahead and have your own individual esoteric beliefs no one else may agree with. Where the esoteric is made exoteric, and enough people believe in the same fantasy, mass hysteria and disorder is usually following close in the wake.
Well put!
That reminds me of one of the central ideas in the work of Yuval Harari:
"We are repeatedly told these days that we are living in a new and frightening era of “post-truth”, and that lies and fictions are all around us. Examples are not hard to come by.
In fact, humans have always lived in the age of post-truth. Homo sapiens is a post-truth species, whose power depends on creating and believing fictions. Ever since the stone age, self-reinforcing myths have served to unite human collectives. Indeed, Homo sapiens conquered this planet thanks above all to the unique human ability to create and spread fictions.
We are the only mammals that can cooperate with numerous strangers because only we can invent fictional stories, spread them around, and convince millions of others to believe in them. As long as everybody believes in the same fictions, we all obey the same laws, and can thereby cooperate effectively.
So if you blame Facebook, Trump or Putin for ushering in a new and frightening era of post-truth, remind yourself that centuries ago millions of Christians locked themselves inside a self-reinforcing mythological bubble, never daring to question the factual veracity of the Bible, while millions of Muslims put their unquestioning faith in the Qur’an. For millennia, much of what passed for “news” and “facts” in human social networks were stories about miracles, angels, demons and witches. We have zero scientific evidence that Eve was tempted by the serpent, that the souls of all infidels burn in hell after they die, or that the creator of the universe doesn’t like it when a Brahmin marries an Untouchable – yet billions of people have believed in these stories for thousands of years. Some fake news lasts for ever.
When a thousand people believe some made-up story for one month, that’s fake news. When a billion people believe it for a thousand years, that’s a religion. But I am not denying the effectiveness or potential benevolence of religion. Just the opposite. For better or worse, fiction is among the most effective tools in humanity’s toolkit. By bringing people together, religious creeds make large-scale human cooperation possible. They inspire people to build hospitals, schools and bridges in addition to armies and prisons. Adam and Eve never existed, but Chartres Cathedral is still beautiful. Much of the Bible may be fictional, but it can still bring joy to billions and encourage humans to be compassionate, courageous and creative."
(in: Yuval Noah Harari: "Lessons for the 21th century"
So your answer is a fool and his money are easily parted.
^ this.
Regards
DL
I agree.
They should go Gnostic and seek god their god within.
https://imgur.com/9eoBEyo
Regards
DL
I agree, given that the main reason for joining a religion is insecurity, our tribal natures and need of fellowship.
I do not mind people appeasing their natures but to lie to oneself in doing so is not intelligent or moral, in the case of our vile mainstream gods.
Regards
DL
I disagree. In much of the time you see, to admit to atheism meant death.
The inquisitors and jihadists have been around a long time.
Regards
DLQuoting Matias
I would be if I said that, I agree.
It is the supernatural aspect of belief that I find stupid.
It is all speculative nonsense as no information on the supernatural can be known or shown.
Do you disagreeing with that?
Regards
DL
I think we all do that and that is why it is important to have ones thinking in reality instead of fiction or the supernatural. If you use junk members in your scaffold, it is not safe.
Regards
DL
I agree and that is why I see the opposite as evil.
I also agree that our beliefs are what we base reality on and that is why I dislike the notion of peole living in delusional states based on some preachers lies.
Regards
DL
Because if they do not, they are inferior and not worthy of us.
Secular law has already shown it superiority to theistic law and morality and if our gods cannot conform to that better morality they should be condemned.
To not do so has us ending todays with homophobic and misogynous inquisition and jihad using inferior religions.
Regards
DL
It would be nice if it was only the fools money, but non-believing tax payers have to make up the billion dollar short fall that religious tax exemptions create.
Believer or not, you are paying for lying clergy to continue lying.
Regards
DL
Life, the universe and everything aren't "safe". We base our thinking on speculation and the like because there's nothing more concrete available. If you think you know stuff - really know stuff - then you are very lucky ... or more likely, deluded. Much of "reality" is unknown and unknowable to us. Sometimes it's fiction or nothing.
Science would disagree.
To not at least stick to what can be known, and think what cannot be known is real, would be people giving up logic and reason for fantasy.
I do not see that as a good idea.
Regards
DL
Where logic and reason have no useful effect, what choice have we but to look elsewhere, maybe to fantasy? You talk blithely about sticking to what we know, but that is itself a difficult area. Adopting the perspective of Objectivism - a school of thought I find to be a pointless waste of time, personally - we know only that Objective Reality exists, and (maybe) that we are all or part of it. We know nothing else at all, to Objective standards. It depends how rigorous you want your thinking to be.
These questions cannot be answered by science. If you want to assume that the world your senses show you pictures of is Objective Reality, I can't stop you. But you have already embarked on a fantasy voyage, and your claims to knowledge are less than they seem. And yet science does what it can, and what it must. The 'reality' our senses show us is the only one we have access to. So we pretend it's real and certain ... and we could be right. But we cannot demonstrate this. We assume it, maybe as one or more axioms, but we don't know it. Your talk of knowing stuff is, at least in part, fantasy. A necessary, common-sense, fantasy, given our position, but fantasy nonetheless.
:up:
I don’t see what this has to do with individuals believing in something other than the material world.
Science cannot agree or disagree. People can. Scientists recently discovered that most of the matter and energy in the universe they had been completely unaware of. Noticing this, it would be a logical conclusion that perhaps we will keep discovering more things, but perhaps some things will not be found out. Perhaps most will not be. Perhaps most will be. Pattern chaser's claim above is problematic because how would he know. But your response is eqully problematic since you cannot know whether we will find out most things. Perhaps scientists will find a way to prove there is a multiverse but not be able to learn more about the other universes, which would be most of what is, for example.
True that reality is a collective hunch.
Still better to not add to the objective reality by adding a fantasy that one must believe in to be saved.
Do you need saving and what did you do to be condemned?
Regards
DL
Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy?
Regards
DL
We have no idea how close we are, knowledge wise, to all that can be known and what can be done.
Speculative nonsense is all we can have of what we do not know, especially of the supernatural.
Regards
DL
No. Like Josef K., I don't know.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Better still to recognise the truth of your first sentence. If you apply it to the second, you may see that you can't recognise a fantasy, nor tell fantasy from 'reality'. That is my point.
I do recognize the truth of my sentence, or I would not have written it.
The rest of what you said makes no sense to me as I recognize that the condemnation of humanity is a lie and also have a good grasp of the real and the imaginary.
Regards
DL
How? Don't just say the truth; accept it! Here it is again, for your consideration:
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
By applying logic and reason of course.
That is how you do it as well. No?
Regards
DL
Why did you ignore my question and returned with this garbage instead?
You seem to want a one way conversation and are tripping over your own tongue with foolishness.
Regards
DL
You’ll need to explain that to me.
Wouldn't physical evidence of the supernatural prove it's physical and therefore natural?
Does the name Stephan Hoeller mean anything to you?
No supernatural gods, no evidence, nothing, but they are ‘demonstrably’ less moral than humans?
Indeed it would. :smile: :up: Where is the evidence, then? Where have you put it? :wink:
Quoting Brett
:smile:
The tax exempt and tax breaks that religion enjoy is in the 80 billon a year range in the U.S alone.
What they save and keep has to be made up by the general public otherwise that 80 odd billion would cause a deficit.
You and I are members of the general public and like it or not, we are both subsidizing religions though/with our tax cash.
Regards
DL
No. If I had supernatural powers, nothing would stop me from popping in and out of other dimensions and being able to interact with them.
Even Yahweh killed an animal to make a garment for A & E. Not that that myth is real.
Just appearing in a new dimension would displace things at the sub atomic level. I guess as no supernatural entity has stuck around long enough for us to know.
Regards
DL
Yes. I have listened to some of his work and agree with a lot of it. Not all though, although I cannot recall what I did not agree with him on.
Regards
DL
Atta boy/man.
Regards
DL
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Your using religious institutions as a way to disparage the idea of the supernatural.
So your position seems to be not just that you wonder if belief in the supernatural is an intelligent persons game, but that it’s something you dislike, or don’t believe in. So now it’s not about whether it’s intelligent to believe in the supernatural but about your subjective opinion on religion. Well, who cares?
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Tax exemption is not the same as me paying for “lying clergy”. How am I paying if there was no money in the first place. That’s like saying those in the top tax bracket stole millions because the government didn’t increase their tax rate. And once again your referring to institutions not individuals. Obviously institutions have taken advantage of people, but all institutions tend to do that, that seems to be the nature of institutions. Your idea seems to be that institutions came first then came belief.
No, it's not. There would need to be some evidence, which at this point is only faith-based.
The interesting part is that some people consider elements of the supernatural as natural, necessary, and existing truly. These are called "religious people". To them god-worship is worshipping a real figure head, it is a natural (i.e. existing fullly in the rational reality) being. It exists (god exists) according to the religious, in other spheres of existence, for lack of a better term; that is also given.
Funny folks, the faithful.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Quoting Pattern-chaser
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Just responding in kind, young friend.
Live long and prosper!
Gays, women, and all others who are discriminated against without a just cause.
All who hate inquisitions and jihads, be they used to kill or to just try to prevent freedom of thought and religion.
If that is not you. then your morals suck and your not worth my time.
My subjective view of the mainstream supernatural based religions is that they are garbage and based on lies and a vile genocidal son murdering prick of a god. This has people calling an evil god good.
What is your subjective view?
Regards
DL
In thinking, true, in actions, I would not use the term funny.
Given that they have grown by inquisitions and jihads, I would say they are immoral and deadly when given power.
Regards
DL
FYPOV, that made sense old friend.
Regards
DL
No, you don't understand. I hate sanctimonious humans and their artificial moralities. Badgers eating baby bunnies shows how amoral the natural, non-human world is. Are you better than the natural, non-human world?
We are the top predator so the rest of the non-human world would certainly say yes, as they would like to be the top predator.
For all I know, they would also like to have our mental/intelligence capability.
Do you not think yourself better than a chimp at a keyboard?
Would you risk your life to save one?
Regards
DL
Well, he’s a bona fide Gnostic Christian Bishop, but I don’t see anything in what you write which bears any resemblance. Gnosticism is certainly opposed to Christian orthodoxy, but it’s still a religious philosophy. Whereas all I see in your posts is hostility to anything religious, and little philosophical argument.
hey gnostic, I wanted to add that I personally don't see the clergy as confolk (or mal-intentioned in general) , but misguided themselves, with a strong passion to continue a work they see as bigger than themselves and which has urged them to accept truths via faith instead of science.
can a misguided individual still act intelligently? in my opinion, yes, insofar as any of us do when we leverage axiomatic logic in our reasoning. but to be honest, it is seems ignorant of me to judge their intellectual capacity, I just haven't experience their perspectives personally.
I can’t help thinking that in the past this has led to some pretty tragic situations.
I wasn’t saying who cares if the supernatural exists, I said who cares about your subjective view on religion. What it amounts to is nothing more than a belief?
You basically just agreed with me. Science does not disagree with what he said. Nor does it agree. It remains agnostic.
Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopActually we can have somewhat justified beliefs about things we do not know. It is not binary, even in science. There are degrees of evidence and models that we use that imply things that we have not yet demonstrated, and then individuals can know things that they cannot prove to others, and more.
I am hostile to all who have given up thinking to be a sheeple to a genocidal son murdering prick of a god whose religion grew with inquisitions due to not having moral arguments to convert with.
If your not then your moral sense is defective as you are supporting a homophobic and misogynous religion.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
That is good news. Nice to know you are not homophobic and misogynous or can think a real prick of a god is somehow good.
I think it our duty to fight such immoral thinking.
If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”
Regards
DL
True, but if you look at history, you will see that most of the wars have been religious wars. Sure, that was still a person starting it but for religious reasons more than political reasons.
Regards
DL
True. A belief I am happy to do apologetics for while Christians just run away instead of trying to do apologetics that they would lose if the topic has any moral implications.
Have you ever tried to get a religionist involved in a moral discursion?
They run like beaten dogs.
Regards
DL
I agree but did not want to put that as an O.P. because the theists would just run away as is their habit when they cannot do apologetics for their god/delusion.
Regards
DL
Faith without facts is for fools.
Thor is the only real god. Prove me wrong.
That idiocy is what faith leads to.
Regards
DL
Science, I think, recognize their own shortcomings and at least tread lightly till they are sure of their hit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRLR9jhP_DM&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Regards
DL
I can agree with this.
You are talking about faith based on facts and a logic trail.
Religious faith is just based on hope without any facts.
Regards
DL
So is love. Though later facts may back up the original love.
So is our faith in memory. Which seems justified, but by memory. So, we wake up in bed, and use faith to decide we will, in the main trust our memories.
We use faith in learning, in fact telling people they will succeed increases their success even if the person saying knows they are poor students.
We use faith in many steps in our logical reasoning. There are qualia that say we checked our argument enough. Qualia that say it makes sense. Qualia checks that tell us we would have noticed if the other person was right, and since we received no warnings then we must have been both logical and right.
All the people who have strong intuitions use faith. Of course to convince people they may need later to demonstrate evidence. But police, doctors, top poker players, soldiers and many others use intuition - iow not able to know why they want to make a certain choice - and some of them are better than others at intuition. It is not guessing.
We all rely on intution, here in our bodies, in time, with limited knowledge. Some people call intuition faith.
And yes, some people can be bad at it.
I think you are misusing the word faith.
If a student is poor in math and has not begun a logic trail in his mind that recognizes how 2 + 2 = 4, throw as much faith at him that you like, but he will never grasp math without logic and reason which are anathema to faith.
Martin Luther.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Regards
DL
Seriously?
That would be stalking, not sharing love with another.
If you share love through faith, then it cannot be a true love as true love must have works, deeds and reciprocity.
Regards
DL
Stalking is a set of unwelcome behaviors. Feeling love for someone is, well, a feeling. Feeling like this is a person to be with. And some people are obviously better at this non-rational reaction to other people than others.eot
Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopI am saying that love is a kind of faith, especially in the beginnig when you have nto spent a lot of time with the other. And actually I think love is underneath works, deeds and reciprocity. Parents' love for children, even romantic love. Yes, of course those are good parts of a relationship, but the love is underneath and causal. And not rational.
Quoting Gnostic Christian BishopThat's what he, one individual thought, at one time. Much of the rest of the time he presented reasoned arguments. But in any case, it's not much evidence of anything.
In answer to your question, an intelligent person should remain open to all possibilities.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
The irony is that your dislike for this god is so personal, as if he does actually exist.
My other point is that it sounds like you might accept the idea of the supernatural if it behaved the way you want. Your anger is directed at the destruction carried out by religion and the hypocrisy, but that doesn’t mean the supernatural is impossible, just that you don’t like it.
Actually, I’ve found them to argue as heatedly as you do.
That was what your reply was, yes.
Loves takes two as one cannot have true love alone.
Regards
DL
It is evidence of how one must think to believe B.S.
Faith without facts is for fools.
Regards
DL
You are correct that it is the effect of such stupid beliefs that I dislike.
Gnostic thinking on this is shown in many movies that show that if there is one supernatural realm or god, there could be as many as fractal math. Gods over god over gods.
It is an endless cycle of gods, which is stupid.
Regards
DL
Show one instance.
Regards
DL
You’re kidding, right? You want me to list people I know and then prove their existence to you?
What is this a playground with clever comebacks?
Why not try actually responding to my post instead of just stating something without connecting it to the points I made. What you wrote here does not contradict what I wrote.
Gnostics are dualists, seeing ‘this fallen world’ as a trap, and all matter evil and a source of misery, the only escape from which is gained by asceticism and denial of the world. Nothing about traditional gnosticism was 'human-centred' - in fact that's the main reason they lost the battle with orthodoxy. Although I suspect that this is one of those conversations where facts don't matter, so I'll butt out.
He has said here or in another thread that his is talking rather than warring with other religions and this talking comes from his hostility. So it is a theological and religious fight, if carried out with words. IOW it is very hard for him to back down even on small points. And yes, I have noticed over the years that he is very selective about what counts as gnosticism. Even presenting quotes from the very gnostics he quotes that go against his position never leads to a concession.
Oh, sure, show everyone how much more clear and concise you are than me.
Same here. They are fierce defenders of pro-life, of defunct sessational anti-demarcation of globalized neo-disciplinarian oblivion, of morality as such in the first place, of the original sin and free will, of god's moral infallibility, etc. Their moral crusades churn-crunch opposition. Or so they hope.
In the OP you said the gods or God does not have good moral fiber. Why do you say that? Which religion are you talking about?
As far as I'm concerned, it is a matter of the extent to which the belief is prevalent and the self-reflection a person conducts. For instance, it would be just as foolish to refuse to reassess your atheism as it would be to refuse to reevaluate your religious beliefs. Indeed, I would intuitvely attribute higher intelligence to a religious person who is capable of reflecting his/her beliefs than to an over-confident atheist. However, beyond my subjective intuitions concerning the matter, some credible studies (http://www.midus.wisc.edu/findings/pdfs/1197.pdf) have been conducted, and indeed low levels of intelligence are associated with high levels of fundamentalism, whereas they display a modest association with more diluted (e.g. no active practice of religious belief) forms of belief. I suppose it is thereby conclusive, statistically speaking, that it really depends on the way a person does or does not reflect and integrate his/her (dis)belief in a supernatural being.
I asked for one example of what you said existed. Apologies for trying to get you to put your money where your mouth was.
Regards
DL
If it is, you are out of your league.
Regards
DL
You wrote nonsense, like this ---.
"I am saying that love is a kind of faith,"
Faith is based on nothing.
Regards
DL
Lies propagated by the inquisitors to discredit us and justify their use of murder.
Let me speak to the lie of our hating matter.
I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
Regards
DL
Yes, because I can speak to then from a modern and evolved viewpoint.
We are not what we were 1,000 and 2,000 years ago.
We have progressed while the mainstream have stagnated with their homophobic and misogynistic teachings.
Regards
DL
Only if someone else foots the bill.
They will not put their money where their mouths are.
Regards
DL
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
I have noted that as well.
Faith is not wanting to know the truth.
Regards
DL
Its a ridiculous request to make. You could not have been serious in the asking. One example? My neighbour Larry, just had a moral discussion with him this morning and he is very religious. Satisfied?
Maybe you go into morals and religious folks flee like dogs, that could be your experience. That hasnt been my experience and Ive had moral conversations with plenty of religious folks. Google “moral debates” and you will get results 1-2 hours long involving religious people. What a laughable position for you to hold.
I have an alternate theory as to why religious folks flee your attempts at discussions based off my observations on this forum: because you talk like an asshole, and direct it at these religious people.
I understand your anger at religion, and I understand why you would extend some of that anger at the sheep of the flock but don’t make up a shortcoming about others in order to explain your own.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
Holy shit. Nothing gets through huh? None of that has anything to do with what I was talking about.
In addition, none of it is a new thought from you and some of it is verbatim what you have already said. What a good little Gnostic Warrior you are, forge ahead, don’t listen, double down on attacks and repeat yourself rather than address anything of substance. If you were capable of looking into a mirror, you would see more than one ugly similarity between you and what you are attacking.
Not uglier. Better and more learned.
What you were talking of is garbage. If you want to match wits, get some.
Regards
DL
Lol, im an honourable person, I would never try and match wits with such an unarmed opponent. Matching wits isnt what I was doing. (How could I possibly stoop low enough for it to be fair?)
Its amazing how little you actually paid attention here. I didnt say “uglier”. I was alluding to similarities in your aggressive, dogmatic behaviour towards people you are attacking for their aggressive, dogmatic behaviour.
Regards
DL
Well, there's a vote for clever comebacks over substance.
These people will stand in the rain and snow outside of planned parenthood, willing to talk or yell at anyone for months. You're just making stuff up to say they all run away.
Focus on the problems with what they believe and do. You don't have to make up other stuff. It's just embarrassing for you.
If they always ran, there wouldn't be a problem and you know that.
Then I guess we are done as I see you doing just that.
Regards
DL
1) love is not logical - that is like faith. It is non-logical
2) there is faith in involved in tfhinking that those feelings of attraction can lead to all the things a marriage or long term love can lead to. That is like faith.
3) there are emipirical aspect to every religious person's faith. They feel a sense of holiness in church. They feel emotional connection to the stories of Jesus. At one point in prayer they felt peace. Wahtever
and yes, I know you see this as them interpreting falsely their subjective experiences.
Interpreting falsely one's subjective experiences. Who has not done that in love?
You can never say anything wrong. The sign of a religious fanatic, in this case a gnostic one.
noun: faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope, expectation
"he completely justified his boss's faith in him"
antonyms: mistrust
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
That is not the definition of love, stupid. Go look it up and learn English.
Regards
DL
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Since I was a kid growing up in an atheist family The Angel of God would manifest & take me away with him & teach me things. He would take me to The garden of Eden & to see The saints in Heaven. He would take me to Hell & I was made to watch people being herded in & judged one by one, & then they were thrown into the fiery lake & i had to watch them burning in agony. God has taken me there many times & it is very real. God says the earth is a school where all souls are sent at some stage to learn about good & evil & become good. God says "The only thing people own are the good deeds they do on earth". God says that the earth is ruled by Satan which is God's Police Force that keeps people struggling with the lower nature instead of mingling with angels etc. God says that no angels can manifest on earth or they will be torn apart by Satan's dogs. Personally I witnessed 2 angels being ripped apart by the beasts when they tied to manifest. Another time an angel manifested & within minutes a powerful buzzing noise came out of the sky & a huge orb appeared & scared the angel away instantly. So it is not easy for the angels of God to manifest. They have to wait till the coast is clear & then they manifest only for short periods.
Of course it is obvious that no one can be expected to believe a thing I say. And you are very bitter & negative towards the idea that a God truly exists & yet does nothing.
All I can suggest is that you try to make your life more pleasant by keeping an open mind & refusing to indulge in negative thought processes which only darken your mood. If you keep an open mind toward God then I am sure that God will manifest some personal proof for you sooner or later.
Very nicely put. I agree.
I'm religious and I believe in the supernatural.
My religion helps me to organize my mind. The religious concepts and stories help me fit the world into a pattern that makes sense to me and gives me stability. Through faith, I understand my place in the world and my relation to other people, and to nature.
That being said, I'm enough of a sceptic to admit that there's no proof to my beliefs, and in the end it's a personal choice. And for me, there is no dissonance between religion and science. A god that would gift me with a rational mind and then ask me to believe blindly in incoherent concepts... that's absurd.
The supernatural is exactly that: The part of the world that we cannot grasp with science and logic. So we need to rely on intuition, metaphor and faith.
Interesting.
Did you, or will you, ask Yahweh why he does the opposite of what Jesus said he came to do?
You show Yahweh taking the satanic moral position and killing when he can cure, while Jesus said he came to cure and not kill.
Ask your god Yahweh why he does the satanic thing instead of the Jesus thing.
You do think it is better to cure than to kill I hope.
Quoting Ocean777
??
Do you not believe that the sons of god, angels, came to earth as Nephelims and used the earth as a brothel and forced god to use genocide in Noah's day? Do you believe in Noah's flood?
Quoting Ocean777
I have admitted to having suffered my own apotheosis and spoke with god the one time and learned enough to keep me for many years.
I find it strange that god would have to spend so much time with you and just shows you un-provable and really worthless garbage instead of giving you wisdom.
All I got was one instruction. It was all I needed I guess.
Regards
DL
:blush:
Quoting WerMaat
I'll return the compliment: Very nicely put. I agree.
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
well I was like you when I met God in person. I questioned God's ethics based upon the religious ideas the world of man had taught me. I discovered it was like an ignorant foolish child questioning the wisdom of an elder. You have to meet God in person again & again & learn how to be with God frequently & hear Him Speak. It takes a long time to understand God just a little. Small amounts of knowledge leaves many questions, but after being with God for a long time you'll have no more questions & will be happy with God & will love God with all your being.
Religious people always debate ideas with each other. They rarely see eye to eye & even contradict their own scriptures frequently. And they taught religion to the world. LOL. So our ideas (knowledge) about religion & the truth about God it holds are faulty. Religious folk killed Jesus in the story. So they were seeing religion as superior to God, & they still do. One religious man came to my door to preach & when I said that I have met God he demanded that I believe the bible & not the God I had met. So you can see how people think religion is absolute truth when it is not. It is very much like today's news reports which captivate us fully at first, till we learn in the following days that things didn't actually happen the way the original report said they did.
God just spoke & said religious people are parrots. LOL
Keep an open mind towards God my brother. It is worth your very soul. Never turn your back on God. Don't ever do that please
Being imaginary, the supernatural can cover whatever people say it covers.
If Yahweh or any other mainstream god can live in some supernatural realm, then so can Odin and Thor.
Right?
Regards
DL
So you prefer to talk of god's reality, where we have no possible end game, instead of talking the morals of your god, if as scriptures say or not, where we can have an end game.
That is a sign of hypocrisy my friend.
How much of the bible have you scrapped?
What do you believe are your god's morals in terms of what little of the bible you do believe and use?
Let's chat morals or end this endless and useless discussion about god. I don't think you even believe in god as you totally ignored my apotheosis, while continuing to talk of yours.
Regards
DL
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
No two bibles say the same thing my brother. lol
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
no, you are simply seething with hatred as you were on all the other sites. It is close to impossible to converse with people clearly at the best of times, & with someone as disturbed as you it is absolutely nonsensical to even try. You will rant & pour out hatred towards God for your entire life till you start meeting with God & become wiser.
God just called you a damaged vessel that is trying to mask itself as a whole vessel. God's words, not mine.
Thanks for sharing your delusion and showing that you are a piss poor apologist for any god.
Talk to god a lot more. You really need it.
Regards
DL
Right! :up:
This is the old matrix type of thinking that led to so many movies.
If there is one matrix type of reality, then there could be thousands overlaying it just like fractal math has multiple never ending layers. One supernatural god opens the door to many of the same.
Regards
DL
If Yahweh or any other mainstream god can live in some supernatural realm, then so can Odin and Thor.
Right?
I agree.
"Imaginary" is literally correct, as in: we're creating images of things that are, per se, invisible.
These images are obviously influenced by our culture and our environment. And why should an early Iron Age Levantine weather god be more "true" than any other?
I mean, is there any category by which we could judge one image of god to be more "true" or "real" than another?
I can think of some categories, but none of them is really convincing to me.
1. Do you think that religion is a majority vote? As in: The god with the largest number of followers must be the true one? (I don't think so. That's quite unfair towards religions whose ideology never demanded that the "true faith" must be spread across the globe and all the "infidels" converted.)
2. Or is it a matter of age? The most ancient texts and traditions must be the most true?
As in: Christianity is different from a Star Trek Fanclub because the Bible is older than the Teachings of Surak? Then what's the minimum age that a religious text or movement must have in order to count?
3. It could also be a matter of quality. Is a deity more "real" if He or She demands a higher ethical standard from the followers, or offers a more coherent explanation of the world? But then, who would be qualified to judge the quality or a religion?
Basically, all religions are just tribes and in that sense, the majority votes and which god is the tribal god. I.E. In Judaism they idol worshiped, was it Baal, until the majority voted Yahweh in.
Quoting WerMaat
The respect for the people of the book indicates it was text based, yes, but the ancient Jews were esoteric ecumenists like Jesus before Christianity turned stupid and began to read myths literally and become dumbed down. This link speak of those better, pre-literalist days.
https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
Quoting WerMaat
You and I are to judge, even if others do not. There is not a lot of wisdom in scriptures but that idea is there.
Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
I do not think people want a moral guide or god. They want a powerful one as their security, not their moral fibre is why they are in a tribe/religion to begin with.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/6138/what-good-is-a-good-god-when-people-want-an-evil-god
Regards
DL
You said Slave holding, why do you phrase it like that? If i owe you $1000 in someways i'm your slave. This is a very ancient concept. Globalist International Bankers enslave people, i can promise you that. Lets move on to the next subject because it appears you don't understand the modern political and economic situation we live in. If someone owes you $1000 are you going to expect them to pay it or not? Please don't make assumptions about my ethnic nor historic ethnic background. You can however make the assumption that i consider myself a christian.
As to mysogynous, i disagree with that. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing mysogynous in the whole Bible other than people in the old testament making poor decisions (keyword is people). Many practices in ancient times were based on a violent almost anarchisitc (note the use of anarchy) world they lived in. Women typically only gain rights when economic factors are stabilized (read civilization). Having extra physical muscle and also the willingness to die young (normally associated with male rather than female) is a biological unfair advantage if you live in a world ruled by hand to hand combat. China which is in some ways an Atheist country is guilty of more oppression of femailes than any country in world history.
Owing money to a person is quite different to being permanently enslaved to them, and if you do not wish to admit that, I will not discuss it further.
As to your later statement that women only gain rights in stable environments, does that not clearly prove a misogynistic society? "Might makes right" is common amongst uncivilized people, for sure, but are you saying that should always be the way it is? The Bible encourages this approach, stating that it takes twice as many females to legally witness a crime, as well as decrying the menstrual cycle as "unclean", labeling women as part of a man's belongings, and rarely even giving names to the females in stories. If a person made such comments and generally behaved as such, I think one could very reasonably assume he didn't like women very much...
As if they'd be able to admit it freely. "None" is absurd. There must be a degree of weakness of mind allowed for describing those who believe in the supernatural. I think it comes down to how much a person needs to know the answer to the questions; why are we here? And, what happens when we die? Because religion offers the only answers other than the truth (that there is no reason for us being here and it's simply lights out). Some people can't handle that reality, regardless of intelligence.
There must be a degree of weakness in those, too, that light themselves a fire because the night is chilly.
Admittedly a matter of convenience. Huddling at the fire may dull our natural resistance against the elements and we'll get burned if we're not careful. But still, many decide that the comfort it offers makes up for the disadvantages.
Would you call that 'weak', or would you call it 'inventive'?
Quoting Razorback kitten Is that so? I tend to be suspicious of anyone who claims to know "the truth" in an absolute sense.
Quoting Razorback kitten Well, in that case, I freely admit that I'm one of those who can't handle it.
Because let me tell you a secret: I'm a human, and I'm not very rational - regardless of intelligence.
Therefore I cling to the stories and concepts that help me make sense of the world, as they give me comfort and hope. ( I also try to avoid staring into the flames until I'm blind to the rest of the world, as the fanatics tend to do. )
It's not about me knowing the truth. It's about how all the questions are pointless to begin with. You're talking about hope and making sense of the world with the sense that without some form of supernatural fiction, it's harder or lesser somehow. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I really wish people could just stop with all the bull. Let's keep fantasy and fiction in the same box. I've got as much "hope" as the next human and I doubt anyone's understanding of the (real) world will ever be improved by invoking the supernatural.
Tooth fairy
Lock Ness monster
Santa
God
Ghosts
Sponge Bob
All together in one list.