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What Science do I Need for Philosophy of Mind?

rickyk95 June 08, 2019 at 05:11 12300 views 39 comments
I have become increasingly interested in philosophy of mind, consciousness, free will, and so on. But am hesitant to approach the topic from the ungrounded, scientific layman's point of view. What science do I need to learn to study this subject seriously?

Neuroscience, Cognitive Psychology, Physics? And how could I go about learning it by myself?

Comments (39)

I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 05:44 #295543
Cognitive Neuroscience.

It depends how serious you are. I recommend Gazziniga’s books on studies in Cognitive Neuroscience - they’re not for the faint hearted though. Principles of Neuroscience is the standard textbook for the field I believe? Both are HUGE tomes and you’ll never get to read them all the way through, but they are very good references (you can find pdf them online; although probably not the latest editions).
Wayfarer June 08, 2019 at 07:12 #295551
Philosophy of mind is not a science and the reasons for that are themselves philosophical rather than scientific. Start by googling ‘Bennett and Hacker’.

I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 07:31 #295554
Reply to Wayfarer And have they studied neuroscience are or their criticisms of some stereotypical view of the “neuroscientist” based purely from a position of ignorance? I think not. The simple fact of the matter is if you wish to be taken seriously understanding the physiology is important - any philosophical claims must be shown to either be logically sound and/or require physical evidence.

The so-called philosophy of mind has been so utterly taken over by advances in neuroscience, that either bolster or dismiss ungrounded philosophical speculation, that a large number of people who’ve committed their careers to such areas have been left flailing in the wake. Without a reasonable appreciation of neuroscience and neurophysiology you’ll have a hard time coming up with anything new or reasonable given that many different positions can be easily dismissed through fact finding.

I’ve even posted here about the innate optimism that humans have and people simply dismiss this. It is actually a neurological fact not blind speculation - if it eats into people’s preconceived ideas then they do tend to dismiss it not understanding the science behind such discoveries (such biases are part of neuroscience and psychological studies - when it some to theory of mind we’re generally playing in the field of psychology and the grounding of what little we can dismiss based on neurological data acquired.

Anyone concerned about “mind” is a fool to ignore the information cognitive neuroscience provides in this area.
Wayfarer June 08, 2019 at 07:43 #295557
Quoting I like sushi
And have they studied neuroscience

Bennett is a neuroscientist, Hacker an academic philosopher. It’s a well-regarded book. Read the Notre Dame review if nothing else.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/philosophical-foundations-of-neuroscience/

Question: how would Socrates have benefitted from neuroscience (other than if he had had a brain injury or tumor and would have then died for the want of it?)
Galuchat June 08, 2019 at 08:01 #295560
Reply to rickyk95

If you read Bennett and Hacker, you will become familiar with the logical errors which many eminent scientists (e.g., Gazzaniga) have made. Then read as much cognitive science as you can.

Bennett, Maxwell Richard; Hacker, Peter Michael Stephan. 2003. Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience. Blackwell Publishing Ltd.
VagabondSpectre June 08, 2019 at 08:10 #295562
Complexity Sciences (chaos theory and complex systems) and machine learning are enough to ferret out the important bits of "intelligence".

But there is a big difference between answering the questions "how do we think?" and "why do we behave the way we do" than answering the question "why do we have a conscious experience of things?". The latter is referred to "the hard problem of consciousness" and it's really not easy to get anywhere in that subject.
I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 08:12 #295563
Reply to Galuchat Just saying. Know what you’re talking about. The Gazzaniga books I a referring to are a collection of studies done by the leaders in the field - Searle wrote the intro to one section (consciousness I think) and Chalmers in the next edition.

Galuchat June 08, 2019 at 08:18 #295565
Reply to I like sushi
Oh wow! Big names.
I'll have to rush right out and buy those Gazzaniga books then, not.
I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 08:25 #295566
Reply to Galuchat

rickyk95:What science do I need to learn to study this subject seriously?


Galuchat June 08, 2019 at 08:33 #295567
Reply to I like sushi

Speaking of ignorance: what part of "Bennett is an internationally renowned neuroscientist" don't you understand?
Streetlight June 08, 2019 at 08:36 #295568
A reading list in place of specific sciences - because there are so many - too many - relevant ones:

Alicia Juarrero - Dynamics in Action: Intentional Behavior as a Complex System
Scott Kelso - Dynamic Patterns: The Self-Organization of Brain and Behavior
Andy Clark - Surfing Uncertainty: Prediction, Action, and the Embodied Mind
Andy Clark - Being There: Putting Brain, Body, and World Together Again
Jesse Prinz - Beyond Human Nature: How Culture and Experience Shape the Human Mind
Donald Merlin - Origins of the Modern Mind: Three Stages in the Evolution of Culture and Cognition
Antonio Damasio - Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain
George Lakoff - Women, Fire and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal About the Mind
Evan Thompson - Waking, Dreaming, Being: Self and Consciousness in Neuroscience, Meditation, and Philosophy
Evan Thompson - Mind in Life: Biology, Phenomenology, and the Sciences of Mind
Dan Sperber and Hugo Mercier - The Enigma of Reason
Dan Sperber and Deirdre Wilson - Relevance: Communication and Cognition
L. S. Vygotsky - Mind in Society: The Development of Higher Psychological Processes

As a note of principle: you can't study the mind if you don't study the body; definitely study the basics (and more) of neuroscience, but if you're not studying evolution, anthropology, and culture alongside that, you'll be doing yourself a disservice.
I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 08:51 #295569
Reply to Galuchat I didn’t say otherwise. Just because you infer I stated something doesn’t make it true. I’m careful with words most of the time. I was merely pointing out that knowledge of neuroscience is held by one of those people - therefore to hint that it is a matter of philosophy above science is not helpful to the OP’s question.
I like sushi June 08, 2019 at 08:55 #295570
Reply to StreetlightX Damasio’s is a nice book. To dive deeper though I think it best to go beyond pop-science books if the OP is serious about getting into this topic.

Psychology is also important in relation to the neuroscience and I’d say anthropology is not the most solid source of information (to put it mildly); the exception being Renfrew and looking into Cognitive Archaeology as well as neurogenesis.
Wayfarer June 08, 2019 at 09:23 #295573
Quoting StreetlightX
Dan Sperber and Hugo Mercier - The Enigma of Reason


Like the sound of that.
Streetlight June 08, 2019 at 09:26 #295575
Reply to Wayfarer Oh boy, wait till you read up on it - I think you'll hate it, haha. The paper from which the book is drawn:

http://www.dan.sperber.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011_mercier_why-do-humans-reason.pdf
Wayfarer June 08, 2019 at 09:36 #295577
Reply to StreetlightX I mainly shop here for counterfactuals.

//oh, and thanks - the abstract save me from the trouble.
bert1 June 08, 2019 at 11:14 #295592
Reply to rickyk95I don't think you need much science. The science is still interesting in its own right of course (not that I'm an expert on it) it's just that I really haven't come across much that is strongly relevant to the philosophy of mind. To put it another way, the science is consistent with pretty much the full range of philosophies of mind, so we can't use science to decide between them. Whatever theory of mind we come up with, it of course has to be consistent with what we empirically know beyond a reasonable doubt. But that is a very low bar.
Harry Hindu June 09, 2019 at 13:28 #295967
Quoting bert1
To put it another way, the science is consistent with pretty much the full range of philosophies of mind, so we can't use science to decide between them. Whatever theory of mind we come up with, it of course has to be consistent with what we empirically know beyond a reasonable doubt. But that is a very low bar.

Exactly. In other words, philosophy is a science and conclusions from one domain of investigation should be consistent with the conclusions in another. All knowledge must be integrated.

Quoting VagabondSpectre
But there is a big difference between answering the questions "how do we think?" and "why do we behave the way we do" than answering the question "why do we have a conscious experience of things?". The latter is referred to "the hard problem of consciousness" and it's really not easy to get anywhere in that subject.

It's only a hard problem for dualists - not so hard for monists. If the fabric of the mind is the same as the rest of reality (for example, information/meaning is the fabric of reality), then what is the hard problem?

As for science/philosophy books that I would recommend:

Steven Pinkers "How The Mind Works" and Douglas Hofstadter's "I Am A Strange Loop"
Terrapin Station June 09, 2019 at 16:12 #296006
Re Bennett and Hacker and their mereological fallacy, they say:

"it makes no sense to ascribe such psychological attributes to anything less than the animal as a whole. It is the animal that perceives, not parts of its brain, and it is human beings who think and reason, not their brains."

Does it make sense to ascribe blood-pumping attributes to anything less than the animal as a whole? Respiratory attributes? Bile-producing attributes? Perspiration attributes?

Why aren't there similar objections to talking about the specific functions of other organs/systems? Why not an appeal to attribute all functions to animals as a whole, as if specific organs/systems have no particular functions? (Is it because they realize that it would be clearly stupid in those regards?)
Galuchat June 09, 2019 at 17:50 #296024
Quoting Terrapin Station
Why aren't there similar objections to talking about the specific functions of other organs/systems?


Where is mind and its components? As always, I'm only interested that you cite credible scientific research in answering this question. You have not provided it in the past, and I doubt that you will be able to provide it now.

Because of this, I don't think mind exists. But I do think that psychological predicates can be attributed to animals. Given the first assertion, and apart from elaboration, is the latter assertion logical (i.e., does it make sense)?
Terrapin Station June 09, 2019 at 18:52 #296037
Quoting Galuchat
. But I do think that psychological predicates can be attributed to animals.


If a psychological predicate can be applied to animals, then we're referring to properties of either some part or the whole of the animal's body, no?
Galuchat June 09, 2019 at 21:05 #296068
Reply to Terrapin Station
Thanks for proving my point regarding lack of credible scientific evidence.
No opinion regarding my second question (here)?
Terrapin Station June 09, 2019 at 21:42 #296070
Reply to Galuchat

Why aren't you answering my question. Let's do one thing at a time.
Galuchat June 09, 2019 at 22:00 #296071
Galuchat:No opinion regarding my second question (here)?


OK, I'll give you a clue: Bennett and Hacker make the same two assertions, but if you want the elaboration, you will have to read their book.

I assume PMS Hacker is a competent logician and philosopher of mind, but admit that you may regard him as "stupid" per above.
Wayfarer June 09, 2019 at 22:33 #296076
Quoting Terrapin Station
Does it make sense to ascribe blood-pumping attributes to anything less than the animal as a whole? Respiratory attributes? Bile-producing attributes? Perspiration attributes?


I think it does. The strength of reductionism is to reduce (hence the name) complex systems to their component parts and processes to understand how they work together. That is why the scientific study of anatomy and physiology were fundamental to the establishment of modern medicine. But to then assume that the nature of the mind is amenable to the same treatment is a misapplication of that method by trying to extend it to a subject that is of a different order.

Certainly cognitive science can examine the sense in which different aspects of neuroanatomy interact to perform particular functions, but again, these are what are called in philosophy of mind the relatively easy problems. The hard problems revolve around the nature of subjective experience (a.k.a. ‘Being’) which are again problems of a different order.
Terrapin Station June 09, 2019 at 23:34 #296086
Quoting Wayfarer
I think it does


If it does, then how would we explain how you can produce bile just as well when you've had a toe removed, or both legs amputated, or both legs and both arms amputated, etc.?
Wayfarer June 10, 2019 at 00:00 #296093
Reply to Terrapin Station What do you think 'mereology' is the study of?
Terrapin Station June 10, 2019 at 00:56 #296105
Reply to Wayfarer

How about trying to answer the question rather than figuring that being ridiculously patronizing will get you anywhere?
Wayfarer June 10, 2019 at 01:54 #296114
Reply to Terrapin Station Mereology is the study of the relationship between wholes and parts, which is germane to the topic, as we’re discussing the ‘mereological fallacy’.

The questions your asking are in the domain of physiology, whereas the mereological fallacy is a philosophical issue. If you can’t see the distinction, then there’s nothing to discuss.
Terrapin Station June 10, 2019 at 11:41 #296275
Quoting Wayfarer
The questions your asking are in the domain of physiology, whereas the mereological fallacy is a philosophical issue. If you can’t see the distinction, then there’s nothing to discuss.


So there isn't a whole versus parts when we're talking about physiology? Isn't the mereological fallacy a la Bennett & Hacker specifically about physiology--talking about brains versus a whole person?
Forgottenticket June 10, 2019 at 11:52 #296287
Depends on which part pf PoM.
Baars: A Cognitive Theory of Consciousness is the best scientific book on consciousness I've read albeit it's slightly old now.
Forgottenticket June 10, 2019 at 12:04 #296298
Quoting Terrapin Station
Re Bennett and Hacker and their mereological fallacy, they say:


It's been a while since I read it but from what I recall the book was overtly behaviorist. It identifies psychological properties by their use.
I like sushi June 10, 2019 at 14:49 #296330
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_P7Y0-wgos
Schzophr June 10, 2019 at 16:56 #296339
you'll need good computer mechanics, so you need to improve your memory and focus, forethought and balance, instinct and judgement.
rickyk95 June 10, 2019 at 20:55 #296421
Reply to StreetlightX This is very helpful thank you!
Arne June 11, 2019 at 09:53 #296568
Reply to rickyk95 high school science should be sufficient. I majored in philosophy and geology was the only college level science course I had. You will be fine.
Pattern-chaser June 11, 2019 at 14:50 #296632
Quoting Terrapin Station
Why not an appeal to attribute all functions to animals as a whole, as if specific organs/systems have no particular functions?


Why stop there? Is there a reason - a good reason - why we should subdivide the universe according to localised concentrations of matter (or according to any other standard)? What reason do we have not to consider the universe as a whole, not a collection of parts?
Terrapin Station June 11, 2019 at 15:05 #296633
Reply to Pattern-chaser

Exactly. So we'd no longer be able to peg any particular properties, any particular functions, to any particular part. Chemistry textbooks, for example, would have to read something like this:

"The empirical formula of the universe can be determined by its universal composition. Assuming 100g of the universe and calculating the number of moles of the universe, universe and universe . . . "
Pattern-chaser June 11, 2019 at 15:10 #296637