Do you ever think that there is no real way to escape the cage we have created for ourselves?

Ummm...I do not feel that I am in a cage of any sort.

Other than life itself, of course, and "life" has its own way of setting one free.

Your stream of consciousness post is not coherent to me.

Give it a bit more baking.

Quoting virginia west

What do you think is your cage?

A culture that values material wealth over meaning. This culture is instilled in me, so the cage exists in my own mind as well as the minds of others.

Reply to praxis Reply to praxis And since our mind is our dimensions in some way, could this way of living make us become less human beings or different ones? Think about birds, most birds fly, but then there are birds that live in little cages in peoples apartments, and they might never know that they can fly. And there are birds like penguins that found themselves in a situation in which swimming was best for their survival so they started to do so. What I'm trying to ask is, can we become or are we becoming different human beings? Because we started to use our minds (wings) to think in a different way (swim) instead of really thinking like human beings (fly)?

Reply to virginia west The way I see it, it comes down to awareness of potential.

As humans we are constructed a certain way: not for individual survival, but for maximising information processing, interconnectedness and collaborative achievement (through which we can attain greater chances of survival). Our physical construction suggests that survival should be the least of our concerns.

But as long as we see our greatest potential as ‘survival’, in our growing awareness of the universe we will feel caged by our comparative fragility and dependence, by what we cannot achieve alone. And in the end, we realise that our survival is only ever a temporary achievement anyway.

So what’s the point in gaining awareness of the universe beyond our physical existence, in building such diverse relationships and striving for collaborative achievement? If this is what we’re physically maximised to achieve, why are so many of us continuing to live like a penguin trying to fly?

Reply to virginia west

I agree with @Frank Apisa I'm not really sure what you're getting at-I'm currently working on a book discussing the umwelt, or perception of people vs. animals (arguing its not really a dichotomy or hierarchy as we assume it to be)-so when you discuss what it is like to think like a human, I can only think how we think, I cannot imagine what anything other than myself, let alone what other humans (like my dad who is sitting beside me) may be thinking. That is the nature of the subjective.

But my cage? Fear. Fear of failure, fear of suffering, fear of disapproval from my family and loved ones-life is full of cages, proverbially, literally, and metaphysically.

Quoting virginia west

I found out that no one ever taught me how to be a human being.

Of course you were taught how to be a human being. What? Are you a wolf child or something?

You started learning as soon as your mother and father cradled you in their arms, and started talking to you, fed you, and so on. You learned the language and the customs of your species (Homo sapiens), the appropriate emotional responses, how to make and read facial and body expressions, and so on.

You also have a certain amount of genetic programming. You were on your road to being a human being before you were born. Had you been the offspring of two kangaroos your genetic programming would have been quite different. You'd have that big tail and a much smaller brain than you have now.

Quoting virginia west

what does it mean to be a human being?

Human beings are able to answer your question. They may answer it with crude or elegant language, depending on how much education they have received and how much they've thought about it. One things is for sure: a kangaroo, no matter how educated or reflective, will never answer your question.

Quoting virginia west

what does it mean to really think like a human being?

You're doing it now. How does it feel?

Your brain is structured to think. It has various specialised areas that carry out certain functions. If you are not damaged or defective (shot in the head, brain tumour, etc.) then your brain will do its human thing and produce human type thoughts. The education you received (starting at birth, if not before) further shape how your brain thinks.

I think I created my own cage, because as time went on I was less inclined to take on the difficulties that would eventuate if I didn’t conform a little. Admittedly society is a tough master, but the choice is there every day.

Edit: But those choices also led me away from myself so that I wasn’t trapped in my own thoughts.

Reply to Bitter Crank I think you give a lot of things for granted if I'd all think like human beings we would all philosophize and there would be fewer problems in the world, more questions but fewer problems. Our being human does not come simply from biological aspects, we have to do something with our ability to think. Of course, we always think, but is that thinking human? I see humans but not humanity. Are we being humans? Or are we just settling because we think we are smarter than any other species?

Quoting virginia west

I see humans but not humanity.

The reverse Diogenes - who saw humanity, but no humans.

Reply to Shamshir indeed, if there is no humanity there are also not real humans, so I guess we're there. The problem now is that there are few people that "see" humanity and that think humanity. So are we humans even if we don't see humanity, or if we don't express our humanity by really thinking ?

Reply to virginia west
But clearly there is humanity, right?
So where do you figure the real humans have hidden themselves?

Sorta like the forest that hides the trees.

Reply to virginia west

If you're a human being, which is something determined by biological facts, then however you think is a way that human beings think, and whatever it might "mean" to be you is part of what it "means" to be a human being. So there's no reason to worry about it or to think that you need to be (or need to be doing) something that you're not (something you're not doing).

You might want to explore what you really want, what your goals really are, and then you can focus on those . . . and you're entirely free to adjust them or abandon them completely and pick other goals as you go along, as you change/feel differently/have different interests, etc.

We belong to a species that developed consciousness as a survival technique, living in an economic order that controls our lives and thinking for profit. It looks entirely likely that we have already buggered the world we live in so as to destroy our species anyway. Within this context, to be human seems a bit of a waste of time, honestly, and our thinking is almost totally conditioned, though we aren't, thank goodness, controlled by instincts. It seems to me that the only useful thing to be thinking about is how to construct mechanical replacements for us - though probably that is just conditioned nonsense anyway. What for? Happy days! :)

There is no cage!

Fear

Quoting I like sushi

Fear

The most insidious cage in the one that we do not even suspect we are in.

Quoting iolo

It looks entirely likely that we have already buggered the world we live in so as to destroy our species anyway.

I see these sort of comments a lot these days. In the past people have survived the most abject poverty, harsh environmental conditions, lack of food, ignorant cultural practices and gone on to, not only survive, but change parts of the world for the better. Gandhi is someone who comes to mind.

The destruction of our species? Why this sort of self imposed cage? Why this total lack of faith in humanity? Why this belief?

Edit: before anyone jumps on me I do realise Gandhi himself did not come from abject poverty.

Why's it a cage? It's just a fact, surely? Why this aimless scepticism?

Quoting Frank Apisa

There's no cage!

I second this, there's no cage. It's only about exploring your potential, finding out what things you like etc.

Quoting Alan

Alan
19

There's no cage! — Frank Apisa


I second this, there's no cage. It's only about exploring your potential, finding out what things you like etc.

Thank you, Alan.

Quoting iolo

iolo
46
Why's it a cage? It's just a fact, surely? Why this aimless scepticism?

Hey, Iolo. How things going?

Hi Frank. Got shut off from the other place, had to change my name. What about you? All well?

One that some who are most adamant that they are not in a cage are trapped in is the result of what psychologist call the Dunning-Kruger effect. Tell tales signs include saying things like:

"Socrates was put to death for that kind of nonsense."

And:

"...I'll attempt to lower my game to the level you folk want."

Reply to Fooloso4 Rorschach was a great villain. :smile:

Quoting Fooloso4

Fooloso4
517
One that some who are most adamant that they are not in a cage are trapped in is the result of what psychologist call the Dunning-Kruger effect. Tell tales signs include saying things like:

"Socrates was put to death for that kind of nonsense."

And:

"...I'll attempt to lower my game to the level you folk want."

YOU may be trapped in a cage...and probably should be.

I am not.

In any case, thank you for showing that my comments have rattled you as much as they have. That is the first step toward having the message sink in.

Why bother getting out of Cage when we already outside.