You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Adult Language

Frank Apisa June 01, 2019 at 16:35 10850 views 117 comments
“Adult language.”

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Does it mean language adults can use…but not non-adults?

Or does it mean that society has decided to pick out certain words (sound, actually) and insist that “proper” people not use those words in public?

I think the latter…and I think the notion stinks like an unwashed asshole.

If you want to comment on a male anatomical part known to some as a penis…why are there people who will arbitrarily demand that it not be called a cock…or pecker,? Why is “erection” okay…but hard on or boner not?

Why is the word “cuff” just fine, but pronounced backwards, considered offensive?

Why designate ANY words as offensive? Why not stop being offended by people using words at all?

More to come of my thoughts. But first…I’d like to hear yours.


Comments (117)

I like sushi June 01, 2019 at 16:59 #293607
WARNING! ADULT CONTENT:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ7l0kfDic
Echarmion June 01, 2019 at 17:05 #293611
Quoting Frank Apisa
Why designate ANY words as offensive? Why not stop being offended by people using words at all?


Not relevant to adult language, but language shapes belief. How people say things matters, because human psychology is sensitive to it.
Frank Apisa June 01, 2019 at 18:11 #293623
Quoting Echarmion
Echarmion
338

Why designate ANY words as offensive? Why not stop being offended by people using words at all? — Frank Apisa


Not relevant to adult language, but language shapes belief. How people say things matters, because human psychology is sensitive to it.


I agree.

But, as you noted, not truly relevant to what I am suggesting. (Some considerations of it in this context will probably be made if others are willing to discuss it. But we are so deep in our feelings about adult language that many people will not even deign to discuss it.)

As for your comment, "...but language shapes belief"...I have MUCH more problem with words like "belief" or "believe" than I do with the words designated "adult."

Believe and belief seems to me to be useless words...used in so many ways as to make them unrealistic for communication.
Frank Apisa June 01, 2019 at 18:14 #293626
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
958
WARNING! ADULT CONTENT:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ7l0kfDic


Egad!
Shamshir June 01, 2019 at 18:34 #293631
Quoting Frank Apisa
If you want to comment on a male anatomical part known to some as a penis…why are there people who will arbitrarily demand that it not be called a cock…or pecker?

Because then you're confusing synonyms of 'rooster' with penis and render children's vocabularies to a few misused words. Their vocabularies are already bad as it is, and applying your whim to the world philosophy will be forgotten in a decade and replaced with 'we da realest 1hunna'.

General Orders
Head Quarters, New York, August 3rd 1776.
Parole: Uxbridge.Countersign: Virginia

That the Troops may have an opportunity of attending public worship, as well as take some rest after the great fatigue they have gone through; The General in future excuses them from fatigue duty on Sundays (except at the Ship Yards, or special occasions) until further orders.1 The General is sorry to be informed that the foolish, and wicked practice, of profane cursing and swearing (a Vice heretofore little known in an American Army) is growing into fashion; he hopes the officers will, by example, as well as influence, endeavour to check it, and that both they, and the men will reflect, that we can have little hopes of the blessing of Heaven on our Arms, if we insult it by our impiety, and folly; added to this, it is a vice so mean and low, without any temptation, that every man of sense, and character, detests and despises it.
Terrapin Station June 01, 2019 at 19:52 #293651
Some examples of adult language:

"mortgage"
"wrinkles"
"tax season"

creativesoul June 01, 2019 at 22:06 #293668
Conflicting moral belief systems. Some think/belief that certain language use is acceptable. Others do not.

It's that simple to outline. The details, reasoning, and/or justification for what counts as acceptable/unacceptable is far greater in nuance.
Brett June 02, 2019 at 03:57 #293719
Reply to Frank Apisa

Adult language will probably help you answer a lot of your questions.
Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 09:58 #293770
For me...the notion that someone will essentially say, "If you use certain words, I am going to be offended"...is so idiotic, it embarrasses me to have to deal with it.

To any of them, I say, "Just stop being offended by words."

Prick is as good a word as penis to indicate the male "member" (there's a beauty)...so why arbitrarily say one is acceptable and one is offensive?

Why agree to do that?

Coitus, copulation, intercourse...are all acceptable...but to use "fuck" for one of humanity's most enjoyable activities is offensive?

What kind of joke are we playing on each other?

Anyway...anyone who thinks use of those words (or any of the other offensive words) is indicative of a limited vocabulary...are dickheads. One can have an extensive vocabulary and still enjoy using those words. Fact is, a better case can be made that individuals who do not use those words are, de facto, more limited in vocabulary.



Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 10:00 #293771
Brett June 02, 2019 at 10:04 #293773
Quoting Frank Apisa
For me...the notion that someone will essentially say, "If you use certain words, I am going to be offended"...is so idiotic, it embarrasses me to have to deal with it.


I didn’t say I was offended.

Quoting Frank Apisa
Fact is, a better case can be made that individuals who do not use those words are, de facto, more limited in vocabulary.


Go ahead, make your case.

Brett June 02, 2019 at 10:15 #293775
Quoting Frank Apisa
For me...the notion that someone will essentially say, "If you use certain words, I am going to be offended"...is so idiotic, it embarrasses me to have to deal with it.


It’s worth considering that some of the words you are talking about are used specifically to be offensive, to insult someone or denigrate them. Let’s not pretend these words are always used innocently.
Shamshir June 02, 2019 at 10:26 #293777
Quoting Frank Apisa
Prick is as good a word as penis to indicate the male "member" (there's a beauty)

Would you also call a woman a cunt with the beauty of childbirth in mind?

Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 10:31 #293778
Quoting Brett
Brett
450

For me...the notion that someone will essentially say, "If you use certain words, I am going to be offended"...is so idiotic, it embarrasses me to have to deal with it. — Frank Apisa


I didn’t say I was offended.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say you did.

Brett: Fact is, a better case can be made that individuals who do not use those words are, de facto, more limited in vocabulary.



Go ahead, make your case.


Shouldn't have to. It is obvious. BUT...

...all other things being equal, a person unwilling to use certain words has fewer to use than someone willing to use those words. Fewer words = a more limited vocabulary.



Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 10:36 #293780
Quoting Brett
Brett
450

For me...the notion that someone will essentially say, "If you use certain words, I am going to be offended"...is so idiotic, it embarrasses me to have to deal with it. — Frank Apisa


It’s worth considering that some of the words you are talking about are used specifically to be offensive, to insult someone or denigrate them. Let’s not pretend these words are always used innocently.


Egg Zacherly.

And the only way that can come to pass...is if people allow certain words to be "offensive."

In any case, if Rex Tillerson had called Trump stupid rather than a "fucking moron"...the insult would have been just as great. So why not stick with "fucking moron."
Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 10:40 #293781
Quoting Shamshir
Shamshir
238

Prick is as good a word as penis to indicate the male "member" (there's a beauty) — Frank Apisa

Would you also call a woman a cunt with the beauty of childbirth in mind?


In a discussion of childbirth...rather than "...after passing through her cunt" should work just as well as "after passing through her vagina."

As for your specific question, if "woman" had become the "foul language" and "cunt" the accepted...you question would be formed in the opposite direction. Why have we decided that "cunt" is unacceptable? It is a word...a fucking word.
Brett June 02, 2019 at 10:47 #293783
Reply to Frank Apisa

I don’t think these words exist by accident. You feel they should be for every day use. But if that happens then they’re no longer the word they were.
Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 11:05 #293788
Quoting Brett
Brett
451
?Frank Apisa


I don’t think these words exist by accident. You feel they should be for every day use. But if that happens then they’re no longer the word they were.


"I" is used every day...millions of times. Are you saying it no longer is the word it was?

"Don't" is used every day...millions of times. Are you saying it no longer is the word it was?

"Think" is used every day...millions of times. Are you saying it no longer is the word it was?

"These" "words" "exist" "by" "accident" are all used every day...millions of times. Are you saying they no longer are the words they are?

I like sushi June 02, 2019 at 13:38 #293813
Reply to Frank Apisa Why is it directed my way? I almost completely agree. I may have worded it a little differently.

To quote Stephen Fry when someone says to him, “I find that offensive”:

“So fucking what!?”

We can always simply say back to them “I am offended by you taking offensive!” It goes nowhere fast.

Of course I would say that in certain circles certain speech is more acceptable. I’m not saying we should, or shouldn’t, all go around purposely trying to offend each other - sometimes it’s better to cause offensive than to try to not cause offensive because life is tough sometimes so you’re going to have to deal with more than mere words (ie. If you’re starving to death or coping with the death of a loved one). In those circumstances words can help mend, but it makes us realise that words have a very limited reach in both expressing emotions, complex ideas and thoughts.
Shamshir June 02, 2019 at 13:44 #293817
Quoting Frank Apisa
In a discussion of childbirth...

Then let's hold off the word fuck for discussions of intercourse, rather than air out our dirty laundry, using it every which way - what say you?

Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 14:06 #293821
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
975
?Frank Apisa
Why is it directed my way? I almost completely agree. I may have worded it a little differently.


I directed it at everyone who had responded....because I wanted to keep everyone coming back. This has been a bugaboo with me for years.

I appreciate that you are of like mind about the issue.

sushi:To quote Stephen Fry when someone says to him, “I find that offensive”:

“So fucking what!?”


Stephen Fry is my kinda guy!:wink:

Sushi:We can always simply say back to them “I am offended by you taking offensive!” It goes nowhere fast.


Bingo!

Of course I would say that in certain circles certain speech is more acceptable. I’m not saying we should, or shouldn’t, all go around purposely trying to offend each other - sometimes it’s better to cause offensive than to try to not cause offensive because life is tough sometimes so you’re going to have to deal with more than mere words (ie. If you’re starving to death or coping with the death of a loved one). In those circumstances words can help mend, but it makes us realise that words have a very limited reach in both expressing emotions, complex ideas and thoughts.


I agree.

And of course, I do not use "adult language" (what a horrible descriptor for it) in many settings.

But the discussion here is appropriate.

I appreciate you and your comments, Sushi. As for sushi...I love California Rolls...but that barely qualifies as sushi. We have a buffet that has sushi...and I often get salmon or tuna...which most sushi eaters consider barely qualifiers also.

LOVE sushi rice. Make my own...and use it on plain on nori.

Frank Apisa June 02, 2019 at 14:07 #293823
Quoting Shamshir
Shamshir
244

In a discussion of childbirth... — Frank Apisa

Then let's hold off the word fuck for discussions of intercourse, rather than air out our dirty laundry, using it every which way - what say you?


See above.
creativesoul June 02, 2019 at 17:28 #293864
Some people look for reasons to be offended. They will always find them.

Some people do not care about offending others. They will intentionally offend.

Those are the extremes.

I do find that there are certain uses of language that ought be culled.


Brett June 03, 2019 at 00:40 #293958
I feel these words are almost anti language. They’re a primitive vocalisation and in their use potentially a threat to language.

Edit: a threat to language and understanding.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 02:06 #293990
Quoting Frank Apisa
all other things being equal, a person unwilling to use certain words has fewer to use than someone willing to use those words. Fewer words = a more limited vocabulary.


Using these words isn’t extending a vocabulary. Those words being used are just replacing another word. But it’s interesting that you think it’s extending a vocabulary by counting the words used, because when I hear people using these words it sounds like using twice as many words as necessary:

‘ I saw the ******* **** come out of the ******* **** bar, little *** she was, the ***** with her, ***** he’s a big ******, she’s a ******* ****!
I like sushi June 03, 2019 at 02:37 #293996
If we remove offensive words from language another will replace it quickly enough. Either we stop communicating or just grow up.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 03:43 #294008
Which I why I said this:

“I don’t think these words exist by accident. “

They’re purposely offensive, or maybe more accurately, contrary or rebellious . That’s what they’re for. Why? I don’t know.
BC June 03, 2019 at 07:00 #294038
Reply to Frank Apisa Well, there is the matter of decorum. It isn't that "fuck" or "shit" are "adult words" and coitus and faeces are not. The former words are appropriate for one level of decorum and the latter are appropriate for another level. I would not expect that a doctor would ask me "Are you shitting OK?" I'd expect him to reference faeces and bowel movements. On the other hand, "Shit!" would be the appropriate response to a diagnosis of terminal cancer. Or "fucking shit" would be the appropriate term at a bar to reference something really stupid.

Policing adult language, as well as enforcing "political correct" language falls into he category of "boor control" or "controlling other people" or maintaining a "quality atmosphere". I disapprove of that sort of shit. But... some people can get away with it and some can't.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 08:24 #294058
I like to be in control of what I’m saying, well I try. I adjust my language to the occasion, the people. They’re only words but you can’t take them back once spoken. People can be hurt, or misunderstand you if you use language they’re not familiar with. Of course you can use the language any way you like, but language is about communication so why not use the most efficient word and one understood by the other person?
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 08:34 #294068
Quoting Brett
Brett
460
I feel these words are almost anti language. They’re a primitive vocalisation and in their use potentially a threat to language.

Edit: a threat to language and understanding.


How so, Brett?

If I exclaim, "Motherfucker!" rather than "Dog gone it!"...how do I threaten language and understanding?

If I say, "Fuckin' outta sight!" rather than "How wonderful!"...how do I threaten language and understanding?

I truly do not understand.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 08:39 #294069
Quoting Brett
Brett
460

all other things being equal, a person unwilling to use certain words has fewer to use than someone willing to use those words. Fewer words = a more limited vocabulary. — Frank Apisa


Using these words isn’t extending a vocabulary. Those words being used are just replacing another word. But it’s interesting that you think it’s extending a vocabulary by counting the words used, because when I hear people using these words it sounds like using twice as many words as necessary:

‘ I saw the ******* **** come out of the ******* **** bar, little *** she was, the ***** with her, ***** he’s a big ******, she’s a ******* ****!


Language is used that way.

I am an advocate of brevity...but poets often flow on and on...some authors of prose are verbose.

So what.

In any case, you mentioned a "limited vocabulary." The more words you use...the less limited your vocabulary. That is simply how the word "limited" works.



Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 08:43 #294072
Quoting Bitter Crank
Bitter Crank
7.7k
?Frank Apisa
Well, there is the matter of decorum. It isn't that "fuck" or "shit" are "adult words" and coitus and faeces are not. The former words are appropriate for one level of decorum and the latter are appropriate for another level. I would not expect that a doctor would ask me "Are you shitting OK?" I'd expect him to reference faeces and bowel movements. On the other hand, "Shit!" would be the appropriate response to a diagnosis of terminal cancer. Or "fucking shit" would be the appropriate term at a bar to reference something really stupid.

Policing adult language, as well as enforcing "political correct" language falls into he category of "boor control" or "controlling other people" or maintaining a "quality atmosphere". I disapprove of that sort of shit. But... some people can get away with it and some can't.


I agree that we humans have agreed that to be the case.

BUT WHY?

Why have we decided to make certain words objectionable.

Suppose we decided to make the word "elbow" objectionable...and had to refer to it in public as "arm joint."

If we got agreement on that...the word "elbow" would be one that causes offense.

It would make no sense...and "offensive language" makes no sense either.

It truly just doesn't.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 08:46 #294073
Quoting Brett
Brett
460
I like to be in control of what I’m saying, well I try. I adjust my language to the occasion, the people. They’re only words but you can’t take them back once spoken. People can be hurt, or misunderstand you if you use language they’re not familiar with. Of course you can use the language any way you like, but language is about communication so why not use the most efficient word and one understood by the other person?


So...why not use "cock" for "penis"...and why, oh, why...would using cock be considered so offensive?

Can you not see that arbitrarily deeming certain words to be "offensive" truly makes no sense?

Merkwurdichliebe June 03, 2019 at 09:12 #294081
Reply to Frank Apisa

It seems to me that different languages regard profanity in very different ways. For example, in Spanish, the offense of profanity seems to be more closely associated with the context in which it is used, rather than through its mere utterance, as seems to be the case in English.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 09:15 #294084
Quoting Frank Apisa
So...why not use "cock" for "penis"...and why, oh, why...would using cock be considered so offensive?


Because if I say ‘cock’ to people who don’t agree with its use they’ll stop listening to me. If I’m speaking to them then my intent is to communicate.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 09:18 #294089
Quoting Frank Apisa
Why have we decided to make certain words objectionable.


I suspect it’s because people, adults, regard them as infantile.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 09:33 #294100
Quoting Frank Apisa
I truly do not understand.


It threatens language by using such words as a substitute for a word that has an etymology.

As I said, it’s not extending a vocabulary, it’s just replacing a word with an alternative that has limited meaning. Most people will know what penis means, not as many will know what ‘cock’ means. It also suggests that the people choosing to use such language have no interest in reaching out to others outside their milieu.

Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 09:46 #294110
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
Merkwurdichliebe
1.1k
?Frank Apisa


It seems to me that different languages regard profanity in very different ways. For example, in Spanish, the offense of profanity seems to be more closely associated with the context in which it is used, rather than through its mere utterance, as seems to be the case in English.


Thank you for that. I don't know how the issue is treated in other languages.

I think the way it is handled in English...is infantile.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 09:48 #294111
Reply to Brett

Obviously you are content with the notion that certain words should offend. Okay.

I'd just as soon not communicate with people too anxious to be offended. They are jerk-offs.
Brett June 03, 2019 at 10:02 #294118
Reply to Frank Apisa

Why, I’m assuming you do, why do you prefer to use ‘cock’ over ‘penis’?
Merkwurdichliebe June 03, 2019 at 10:18 #294121
Reply to Frank Apisa
I think a cross linguistic comparison would be very helpful in understanding the universal essence of adult language. Mere reference to the socially improper seems insufficient.
Merkwurdichliebe June 03, 2019 at 10:20 #294123
Reply to Frank Apisa

Oh damn, i never thought I'd open up so easily to the ordinary use of language.
Merkwurdichliebe June 03, 2019 at 10:22 #294124
Quoting Brett
do you prefer to use ‘cock’ over ‘penis’?


I prefer to use it over pussy. Oops, sorry. Please disregard that comment.
I like sushi June 03, 2019 at 14:57 #294162
Reply to Frank Apisa You just reminded of this vid I watched several years ago (Enjoy!):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mfTKWwxuF1g
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 18:14 #294200
Quoting Brett
Brett
464
?Frank Apisa


Why, I’m assuming you do, why do you prefer to use ‘cock’ over ‘penis’?


What makes you think I do?

I prefer to use either...and not give a damn about whether or not it "offends" someone.

Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 18:39 #294204
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
Merkwurdichliebe
1.1k
?Frank Apisa


Oh damn, i never thought I'd open up so easily to the ordinary use of language.


Everyone should wonder about the same thing, Merk.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 18:42 #294205
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
996
?Frank Apisa
You just reminded of this vid I watched several years ago (Enjoy!):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mfTKWwxuF1g


Yep...a tremendously useful word...that some people want to eliminate.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 20:25 #294223
Quoting Frank Apisa
BUT WHY?


We didn't decide to make words objectionable. Words make themselves objectionable by filling possibilities in the discourse. One of which is the possibility to be offended. You may as well ask why we 'made' some words more intense versions of others. For example, why do we have 'overjoyed' and not just 'happy'? Answer, because it expresses a possibility in the discourse which in turn fills in a human emotion (or a shade of one) that can be usefully expressed. Being offended is just another such affective state. And as long as it is, a word will fill in that space.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 20:42 #294227
Quoting Baden
Baden
7.8k

BUT WHY? — Frank Apisa


We didn't decide to make words objectionable. Words make themselves objectionable by filling possibilities in the discourse. One of which is the possibility to be offended. You may as well ask why we 'made' some words more intense versions of others. For example, why do we have 'overjoyed' and not just 'happy'? Answer, because it expresses a possibility in the discourse which in turn fills in a human emotion that can be usefully expressed. Being offended is just another such affective state. And as long as it is, a word will fill in that space.


I understand what you are attempting to communicate here, Baden...but I disagree with your first sentence so completely, that the remainder of the comment pales.

The only way a word can be objectionable...is if we DO decide to make it objectionable. It can only offend if we decide to find it objectionable.

Most English words have synonyms. In that first sentence you used the word "decide"...which could just as easily be written as "choose, elect, or select."

But if we had collectively decided (elected, chosen, or selected) to designate "decide" a crudity or vulgarity...that sentence would be seen as vulgar or crude.

Same thing with vulgar...which can easily be designated crude, uncouth, or unrefined. If we had collectively decided to be offended by the use of vulgar...my sentence would be seen as uncouth, crude or unrefined.

The damage to language (if there is any) is not in use of "vulgar" words...but in the notion that we can designate certain words to be objectionable...or offensive.

Really!

The notion that we should be doing this...is itself offensive.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 20:52 #294228
Quoting Frank Apisa
I understand what you are attempting to communicate here, Baden...but I disagree with your first sentence so completely, that the remainder of the comment pales.


Ok, who decided to make the word "fuck" (for example) offensive and when? And who would be the "we" that could suddenly decide to designate it as unoffensive, and in what contexts, and how would we control the visceral reactions of others to that word in particular contexts? And what form would this collective decision make? How would it be enforced? Do you believe everyone has the power to consciously switch on and off their negative reactions to offensive words at will? Do you believe people would voluntarily do this on the basis of some democratic mandate or referendum to designate words differently?
BC June 03, 2019 at 21:02 #294229
Reply to Baden Reply to Frank Apisa The reason "fuck" has a much more casual decorum rating than "elbow" is its history. Words have histories, and their histories cling to them from generation to generation. The words we consider "too casual for formal settings" (like fuck, shit, asshole, pussy, cock, etc.) have been in use (in English, with equivalent words in other languages) since at least the transition from Old English to Middle English around 700-900 years ago. Chaucer's Miller's Tale is pitched low brow enough for those words to be OK. Chaucer's Nun's Tale was pitched at a high brow level. [Chaucer's 15th century readers would, of course, have been high brow.]. In the Nun's Priest's tale about Chanticleer (a lusty chicken) Chaucer chooses more decorous language. Rather than fucking Pertelote, Chanticleer "feathered" her.

He feathered Pertelote in wanton play
And trod her twenty times ere prime of day.


In some passages of classic Greek literature, "plowing a furrow" is a more polite term than fucking.

So, why do people set up (and enforce) categories of high brow, mid brow, and low brow? It has something to do with class. People with power (social, economic, hierarchical, etc.) generally prefer to control those with less power, and that includes policing the "brow" of proceedings. So high brow tends to go along with those who have power, and low brow tends to go along with those who have very little power.

TENDS -- not a rule. Richard Nixon had plenty of power, but in the privacy of the Oval Office he used plenty of very low brow language. But, important qualification, this was in the company of peers, NOT inferiors. Lyndon Johnson also had plenty of power, and he also tended to use quite a bit of low brow language, and not just among his inner circle.

The group who is touchiest about language is the middle-class mid-brow grouping. Middle class people (and here I mean aspiring to achievement, but not secure in their material accomplishments) very much want to use the language of the more powerful group above them, and bask in that kind of decorum. Unfortunately for this middling, mid-brow group, they often have fairly recent origins in the low class, low brow level--the memory of which they very much want to forget. So strivers, aspirers, upward reaching people are often the fussiest about policing decorum and language.

What's ahead? If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for language etiquette rules to disappear. The sanctioned words might change, but the top honchos will still be policing language the riff raff gets to use in public.
BC June 03, 2019 at 21:19 #294231
Reply to Baden Reply to Frank Apisa Take the discussion of "nigger" elsewhere on the forum. It is a term of derision rooted in the history of enslaving Africans (at least in the West; whether slave traders and slave holders in the Middle East had similarly derisory terms, I don't know). 154 years after slavery was ended, far fewer years after crude and pervasive discrimination against blacks was greatly reduced, we can not use this term freely. Nobody can -- not blacks, not whites. It certainly gets used, but not without a lot of freight. Rappers may use its freighted (fraught) loading for one effect, white power groups use the term's loading for quite different purposes. Blacks may use it in conversation to communicate one meaning, whites may use it in conversation to communicate quite different meanings.

Black, African American, and Negro also have fraught meanings that can't be dismissed. The history of the term clings to them, just as it does to Anglo Saxon, English and White.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 21:22 #294232
Quoting Baden
Ok, who decided to make the word "fuck" (for example) offensive and when?


Common practice…and a healthy infusion of upper crust control of what could or could not be written. The word was not even included in any English dictionary until the 1960’s. One of the MOST used words in the English language…NEVER INCLUDED IN A DICTIONARY UNTIL THE 1960’s.

That’s who.


Baden:And who would be the "we" that could suddenly decide to designate it as unoffensive, and in what contexts, and how would we control the visceral reactions of others to that word in particular contexts?


Beats the shit out of me. (A supposedly vulgar expression that conveys a thought as well as any non-vulgar way of saying the same thing.)

I am not arguing for doing that. I am in an Internet forum devoted to philosophy…and discussing a subject that can easily be considered in a philosophical context.




Baden:And what form would this collective decision make?


I am not disposed to offer conjecture on that. Or “beats the shit out of me.” Your choice.

How would it be enforced?



Baden:How would it be enforced?


I give up. How?

Baden:Do you believe everyone has the power to consciously switch on and off their negative reactions to offensive words at will?


I do not do “believing.”

If you are asking if I suppose everyone has the power to consciously switch on and off their negative reactions to offensive words at will…

…my guess would be “Some people WON’T.” Whether they CAN or not…is a different story.


Baden:Do you believe people would voluntarily do this on the basis of some democratic mandate or referendum to designate words differently?


I do not do “believing.” If you are asking if people COULD do this on a voluntary basis…I would respond, “Yes.”

If, on the other hand you are asking if people WOULD do it on a voluntary basis…I would respond, “Almost certainly…NO.”

I really appreciate you coming to this issue and for your comments, Baden.


Baden June 03, 2019 at 21:22 #294233
Quoting Bitter Crank
The history of the term clings to them, just as it does to Anglo Saxon, English and White.


Well, yes, and my point is that language will go its own way regardless of what you, I or frank thinks and words will continue to offend certain people in certain contexts on a visceral level whether we (or even they) like it or not. To think otherwise is a fantasy.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 21:29 #294234
Quoting Frank Apisa
Common practice.


Well, that's more or less what I was saying. It's something that develops organically more than is consciously controlled. Bottom-up. As to...

Quoting Frank Apisa
and a healthy infusion of upper crust control of what could or could not be written. The word was not even included in any English dictionary until the 1960’s. One of the MOST used words in the English language…NEVER INCLUDED IN A DICTIONARY UNTIL THE 1960’s.


There may have been some top-down influence too. That would be difficult to quantify.

Quoting Frank Apisa
I do not do “believing.” If you are asking if people COULD do this on a voluntary basis…I would respond, “Yes.”


We differ here then. While some people may have this level of control, I don't think everyone or even most people do. We generally get offended in spite of ourselves not because we choose to.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 21:31 #294235
Quoting Frank Apisa
I really appreciate you coming to this issue and for your comments, Baden.


I have a particular interest in the language-oriented threads so suits me.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 21:34 #294236
Quoting Bitter Crank
What's ahead? If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for language etiquette rules to disappear. The sanctioned words might change, but the top honchos will still be policing language the riff raff gets to use in public.


I personally think there is very little chance of language etiquette rules disappearing or even relaxing significantly.

That is not my point here. I am just discussing what is...not my ideas of what should be or how to get there.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 21:35 #294237
Quoting Baden


Please see above comment from me.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 21:37 #294238
Quoting Baden
We differ here then. While some people may have this level of control, I don't think everyone or even most people do. We generally get offended in spite of ourselves not because we choose to.


Perhaps.

But the pressures to be offended are so great...that it may seem it is being done the way a dog likes its own ass.

I think there is more choice involved than you do. We just disagree.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 21:39 #294239
Quoting Baden
Baden
7.8k

I really appreciate you coming to this issue and for your comments, Baden. — Frank Apisa


I have a particular interested in the language-oriented threads so suits me.


Okay.

You do realize that "fuck" is not swearing. Nor is "fuck" cursing. Nor is "fuck" profane.

"Fuck" is vulgar.

And we both know that being vulgar means being "of the people"...sorta like the Vulgate version of the Bible.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 21:46 #294241
Quoting Frank Apisa
And we both know that being vulgar means being "of the people"...sorta like the Vulgate version of the Bible.


My latin's not so good tbh. I went to a @Hanoverian grammar school where they only taught us how to speak proper Georgian English. :sad:
Hanover June 03, 2019 at 21:54 #294243
Quoting Frank Apisa
You do realize that "fuck" is not swearing. Nor is "fuck" cursing. Nor is "fuck" profane.

"Fuck" is vulgar.

And we both know that being vulgar means being "of the people"...sorta like the Vulgate version of the Bible.


"Fuck" is vulgar and it is profane because that's what vulgar means right now, regardless of how the ancient Romans spoke.
Hanover June 03, 2019 at 21:59 #294244
Reply to Baden "Georgian English" suggests the aristocratic langauge of royalty, and I'm not sure I'm deserving of that. I do think George II was a nut job, though, so maybe that's what you meant. I could be wrong though. My English history is a bit weak which should come as no surprise.
Hanover June 03, 2019 at 22:01 #294246
George III was crazy, not II. Close. So fucking close.
Baden June 03, 2019 at 22:13 #294247
Reply to Hanover

It was multi-layered. The comedic equivalent of a lasagne. Next time I'll just throw a spud at your head.
Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 22:30 #294248

Quoting Hanover
Hanover
4.6k

You do realize that "fuck" is not swearing. Nor is "fuck" cursing. Nor is "fuck" profane.

"Fuck" is vulgar.

And we both know that being vulgar means being "of the people"...sorta like the Vulgate version of the Bible. — Frank Apisa


"Fuck" is vulgar and it is profane because that's what vulgar means right now, regardless of how the ancient Romans spoke.


It has little to do with the ancient Romans.

Bring profane has a specific meaning. It means making worldly what belongs to a god.

Saying "Fuck you" is not being profane.

It is not swearing...which has a specific meaning. Swearing is the taking of an unnecessary oath...also a religious thing.

It is not cursing...which has a specific meaning. Cursing is wishing someone to eternal damnation.

Using "fuck" IS NOT being profane, cursing, swearing.

It is being vulgar...which is to say being of the common people.

It is like eating chicken only with a fork rather than using one's hands.

Rich people apparently never gnaw on chicken wings.

Frank Apisa June 03, 2019 at 22:31 #294249
Quoting Hanover
Hanover
4.6k
George III was crazy, not II. Close. So fucking close.


Now that I liked!
BC June 04, 2019 at 00:03 #294254
Quoting Frank Apisa
Rich people apparently never gnaw on chicken wings.


They have servants to do that for them.

Re: George III:

He probably had porphyria, which is a genetic disorder impairing the production of "heme" -- an essential element of red blood cells. One writer, trying to argue that George III wasn't insane said that he was merely "manic". Hypomania can be quite pleasant, but last time I checked, full blown "hypermania" is a red flag for mental illness. Acute porphyria can make one feel and be quite sick, including mental dysfunction.
Brett June 04, 2019 at 01:11 #294261
Quoting Frank Apisa
Why, I’m assuming you do, why do you prefer to use ‘cock’ over ‘penis’?
— Brett

What makes you think I do?


I was asking because I was wondering if a person might use ‘fuck’ instead of ‘intercourse’ because the rawness feels more real, more honest.
Brett June 04, 2019 at 01:49 #294271
Quoting Frank Apisa
Why have we decided to make certain words objectionable.


The words have to be said first before someone can be offended. Who uses these words?

I think you’re right about this language being vulgar, ‘of the people’, as you say, the ones who eat with their hands.

They’re using it to separate themselves from a class they don’t like and they’re using it as a weapon against that class. They know it defines who they are and they know it offends people. It’s through that language that they maintain that difference. Maybe the class that uses knifes and forks are pretentious, materialistic, maybe they feel threatened by ‘the people’, but don’t feign shock when they’re offended by the language.

Frank Apisa June 04, 2019 at 09:07 #294372

Quoting Brett
Brett
478

Why, I’m assuming you do, why do you prefer to use ‘cock’ over ‘penis’?
— Brett

What makes you think I do? — Frank Apisa


I was asking because I was wondering if a person might use ‘fuck’ instead of ‘intercourse’ because the rawness feels more real, more honest.


I think some words do speak to things with more rawness than others.

But my point here is merely that being offended by certain words seems silly to me.

It is going to happen...as several have pointed out. But it does seem a silly thing. Sorta like a child complaining to mommy, "Billy is saying 'na, na, na, na' to me. Make him stop."
Roke June 04, 2019 at 12:45 #294418
Cuss words are somewhat arbitrary but not without utility. When kids refrain from using them, it signals some degree of effective socialization and reflects well on the parents.

When properly reserved, the verboten words pack more punch if you need them to make an emphasized point. The capacity to strike a reasonable balance is a sign of maturity (hence ‘adult language’).
Brett June 05, 2019 at 04:37 #294722
I like sushi June 05, 2019 at 05:00 #294726
Reply to Roke That makes perfect sense. People need to be socialised enough to appreciate the ‘correct’ (or better suited) situation for using such speech.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 08:57 #294751
There should NEVER be a setting where words should make a difference because certain words are considered "bad."

The idea is an absurdity.

But...we are going to tolerate it...and pretend that some words are "dirty" for some reason.

I sure hope the word "the" never is chosen to be one of those words.
I like sushi June 05, 2019 at 09:19 #294753
Reply to Frank Apisa Some words will always be bad and/or offensive to some. If they were removed people would just replace them.

On the Chinese twitter they aren’t allowed to insult the government ... so they don’t use the actual names of their leaders nor do they use obvious words of criticism.

No matter what laws are imposed people will naturally push back against them to some degree.

To say “cunt” in the UK can be friendly. Context and tone matter more than actual specific words for sure.
Shamshir June 05, 2019 at 09:22 #294754
Quoting Frank Apisa
There should NEVER be a setting where words should make a difference because certain words are considered "bad."

Then from today start calling your father 'motherfucker' because he fucked your mother. Start calling every father 'motherfucker' under your pretense and let's see how far you make it.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 09:23 #294755
Quoting Shamshir
Shamshir
261

There should NEVER be a setting where words should make a difference because certain words are considered "bad." — Frank Apisa

Then from today start calling your father 'motherfucker' because he fucked your mother. Start calling every father 'motherfucker' under your pretense and let's see how far you make it.


Fuck you, you fucking jerkoff.

Or...Hi, Shamshir.

Your choice.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 09:26 #294756
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
1k

To say “cunt” in the UK can be friendly. Context and tone matter more than actual specific words for sure.


Yup.

Aretha Franklin used it at an inaugural.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4D9jQpecVo

Brett June 05, 2019 at 09:37 #294762
Quoting Frank Apisa
There should NEVER be a setting where words should make a difference because certain words are considered "bad."


Really? So if you were a policeman, or a councillor, what language would you use interviewing a young girl who had been raped?
Terrapin Station June 05, 2019 at 09:46 #294765
"Be good little conformist robots"
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 14:40 #294798
Quoting Brett
Brett
489

There should NEVER be a setting where words should make a difference because certain words are considered "bad." — Frank Apisa


Really? So if you were a policeman, or a councillor, what language would you use interviewing a young girl who had been raped?


My point is that any "language" should be considered acceptable...and polite. We should not be artificially designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good."
Fooloso4 June 05, 2019 at 19:19 #294847
Just as there are people who are tone deaf there are those who are meaning deaf. It can be insidious, especially when one is unaware of it. One may not believe it, or believe he does not believe it, or believe he does not believe ... and there you have it.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 19:31 #294850
Quoting Fooloso4
Fooloso4
492
Just as there are people who are tone deaf there are those who are meaning deaf. It can be insidious, especially when one is unaware of it. One may not believe it, or believe he does not believe it, or believe he does not believe ... and there you have it.


Ummm...there you have...what?
Deleteduserrc June 05, 2019 at 19:36 #294851
@Frank Apisa

If 'profane' language wasn't treated as profane, but normal, would you take such obvious delight in the use of profane language by yourself and others? If it's all the same, why not just use the other terms? It's exciting to sneak into a forbidden room, but its pretty boring once it's no longer forbidden. Might as well hangout in any fucking room.
Fooloso4 June 05, 2019 at 19:50 #294855
Quoting Frank Apisa
Just as there are people who are tone deaf there are those who are meaning deaf. It can be insidious, especially when one is unaware of it. One may not believe it, or believe he does not believe it, or believe he does not believe ... and there you have it.
— Fooloso4

Ummm...there you have...what?


Exactly! A fine demonstrate of meaning deafness.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 19:54 #294856
Quoting csalisbury
csalisbury
1.8k
@Frank Apisa

If 'profane' language wasn't treated as profane, but normal, would you take such obvious delight in the use of profane language by yourself and others? If it's all the same, why not just use the other terms? It's exciting to sneak into a forbidden room, but its pretty boring once it's no longer forbidden. Might as well hangout in any fucking room.


Perhaps all true...but also besides the point.

My point is that arbitrarily designating certain words as "bad" or "whatever else"...is a hell of a lot more stupid and childish than people who use that language.

Society tends to do a lot of that "arbitrary designation" of what is polite, or socially acceptable, or good mannered or acceptable.

Miss Manners say no one should ever eat chicken or anything else with their hands. A knife and fork are a must for "cultured" people.

I like chicken wings. I have no idea of how to eat them with a knife and fork. I'm nuts about baby-back ribs. Cannot figure out a way to eat them with a knife and fork either.

A tie and jacket are considered an essential for a work environment.

Are you kidding me?

Why?

I hate collared shirts, but I wear one each day because I work at a golf course and play golf. Collared shirts are a requirement.
Deleteduserrc June 05, 2019 at 20:03 #294857
Reply to Frank Apisa Maybe one way at this is to determine where 'arbitrary' ends and 'non-arbitrary' begin. Cutlery is one thing. What if you went to a daughter or nieces middle school graduation and the principal gave a speech - 'These fucking kids, they've dealt with so much shit, but they still made it through.' Honest reaction, like if it happened irl and not just as an idea in this thread?
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 21:09 #294868
Quoting csalisbury
csalisbury
1.8k
?Frank Apisa
Maybe one way at this is to determine where 'arbitrary' ends and 'non-arbitrary' begin. Cutlery is one thing. What if you went to a daughter or nieces middle school graduation and the principal gave a speech - 'These fucking kids, they've dealt with so much shit, but they still made it through.' Honest reaction, like if it happened irl and not just as an idea in this thread?


IF there were no words arbitrarily designated as bad...one would think nothing of it.

If the words "fucking" and "shit" were not arbitrarily designated as crude, vulgar, or bad...there would be nothing wrong with it.

If the word "fucking" and "shit" in that short sentence were not arbitrarily designated the way they are...the sentence would be absolutely as benign as, "'These wonderful kids, they've dealt with so many difficulties, but they still made it through."

The notion of arbitrarily designating certain words as crude...is an absurdity. It is closer to disgusting than using those words can possibly be.

Deleteduserrc June 05, 2019 at 21:17 #294872
Reply to Frank Apisa But I'm asking, how you'd react to the principal saying that. I know that you see the demarcation between vulgar and acceptable as arbitrary. I'm wondering if, knowing all that, you'd still be at least slightly discomfited by the principal's speech.

If it's equivalent to 'These wonderful kids, they've dealt with so many difficulties, but they still made it through' then of course not, right? There's no meaningful difference between the two speeches.
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 21:27 #294876
Quoting csalisbury
csalisbury
1.8k
?Frank Apisa
But I'm asking, how you'd react to the principal saying that. I know that you see the demarcation between vulgar and acceptable as arbitrary. I'm wondering if, knowing all that, you'd still be at least slightly discomfited by the principal's speech.

If it's equivalent to 'These wonderful kids, they've dealt with so many difficulties, but they still made it through' then of course not, right? There's no meaningful difference between the two speeches.


If it happened, I'd laugh my ass off. I would be delighted that someone was intelligent enough to see the absurdity of arbitrarily designating certain words as bad.

I'd be laughing.

The principal would have his/her ass in a wringer, though.
Deleteduserrc June 05, 2019 at 21:31 #294877
Reply to Frank Apisa Alright. And now imagine you're talking to friends about the past, about sexual escapades, whatever. And one friend seems to only use 'clean' words, and seems reluctant to use 'vulgar' language. What's the reaction to that? The principal's intelligent; is the friend stupid?
Frank Apisa June 05, 2019 at 21:36 #294878
Quoting csalisbury
csalisbury
1.8k
?Frank Apisa
Alright. And now imagine you're talking to friends about the past, about sexual escapades, whatever. And one friend seems to only use 'clean' words, and seems reluctant to use 'vulgar' language. What's the reaction to that? The principal's intelligent; is the friend stupid?


Not at all.

The friend would be using the words he/she chooses.

The principal would be using the words he/she chooses.

I am not sure of where you are heading with your questions.

I don't expect the say society deals with words to change. The word "fuck" will still not be accepted, but a piece of shit phrase like "making love" will be.

I'm just discussing the philosophical implications of the practice.

Pick out any acceptable word in any sentence in this thread...suppose it being designated as crude or bad for some reason...and the sentence would become inappropriate for "decent company."
Deleteduserrc June 05, 2019 at 22:12 #294887
@Frank ApisaWell *I* can't pick out any word and deem it unacceptable and expect a bunch of others to immediately develop similar intuitions about it. It would just be some weird thing I did. *Who* makes those decisions? You're aware of certain words being 'seen' as bad. its not something I did, of course, because I don't have that power. Who did it?


Ok. Imagine your friend tells you those things and you say it back to him in 'vulgar' language and he's visibly uncomfortable. 'oh you fucked that bitch?' you see your friend seems hurt. What happens next?
Fooloso4 June 05, 2019 at 23:32 #294896
Reply to Frank Apisa

You have a misguided concept of how language actually works. It is intimately tied to norms, practices, and customs.

Quoting Frank Apisa
We should not be artificially designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good."


We do not artificially or arbitrarily designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good" any more than we artificially designating certain actions or behaviors as "bad" and others as "good." You may believe that painting a swastika on a synagogue is not bad. After all the symbol was used prior to the Nazis and did not carry that connotation. The fact is though, that now it does.

Words, like other symbols, carry connotations. Their meaning is not neutral until someone arbitrarily designates them good or bad. Words, like customs and norms have a history and change over time. It is not a matter of it being arbitrary as opposed to necessary, but a matter of convention.

I take my shoes off when I enter the home of people who take their shoes off in the house. It's a sign of respect. If I enter a church and I am wearing a hat I will take it off, but if I enter a synagogue and I am not I will put one on. Such practices may seem arbitrary but out of respect that does not prevent me from conforming. In the same way, if I am talking to someone who finds certain words objectionable, out of respect I will not use those words in front of them even though I might use the same words under different circumstances. The use of certain words in certain situations is just ill-mannered. But I suspect you have no regard for good manners either since they go hand in hand.

Brett June 06, 2019 at 00:54 #294910
Quoting Frank Apisa
Really? So if you were a policeman, or a councillor, what language would you use interviewing a young girl who had been raped?
— Brett

My point is that any "language" should be considered acceptable...and polite. We should not be artificially designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good."


‘Should, should, should. You’re all over the place and you ignore everyone else’s comments.

Did you chose not to answer my question.
I like sushi June 06, 2019 at 07:57 #294994
Reply to Brett Reply to Frank Apisa To add to the above, how are we to insult anyone if all words are deemed ‘polite’?

Sounds nice in theory, but in practice I’m not dubious as to the effect such non-use of insults would help anyone much in the long run.

The weight of certain words expresses deep dislike and opposition. If such strong feelings were not expressed and communicated would this be better for everyone? I don’t see how it would in every circumstance, and in the circumstances that matter the most I think it would be detrimental to human society (as a society that explore and asks questions that can be quite difficult to deal with).
Brett June 06, 2019 at 08:02 #294995
Reply to I like sushi

Yes, in fact those words are used by me on special occasions, so to speak. They have a purpose.
Frank Apisa June 06, 2019 at 09:24 #295036
Quoting csalisbury
csalisbury
1.8k
@Frank ApisaWell *I* can't pick out any word and deem it unacceptable and expect a bunch of others to immediately develop similar intuitions about it. It would just be some weird thing I did. *Who* makes those decisions? You're aware of certain words being 'seen' as bad. its not something I did, of course, because I don't have that power. Who did it?


Ok. Imagine your friend tells you those things and you say it back to him in 'vulgar' language and he's visibly uncomfortable. 'oh you fucked that bitch?' you see your friend seems hurt. What happens next?


I would not do that.

I am talking about a concept here.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Can we have an actual philosophical conversation?
Frank Apisa June 06, 2019 at 09:25 #295037
Quoting Fooloso4
Fooloso4
494
?Frank Apisa


You have a misguided concept of how language actually works. It is intimately tied to norms, practices, and customs.

We should not be artificially designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good." — Frank Apisa


We do not artificially or arbitrarily designating certain words as "bad" and others as "good" any more than we artificially designating certain actions or behaviors as "bad" and others as "good." You may believe that painting a swastika on a synagogue is not bad. After all the symbol was used prior to the Nazis and did not carry that connotation. The fact is though, that now it does.

Words, like other symbols, carry connotations. Their meaning is not neutral until someone arbitrarily designates them good or bad. Words, like customs and norms have a history and change over time. It is not a matter of it being arbitrary as opposed to necessary, but a matter of convention.

I take my shoes off when I enter the home of people who take their shoes off in the house. It's a sign of respect. If I enter a church and I am wearing a hat I will take it off, but if I enter a synagogue and I am not I will put one on. Such practices may seem arbitrary but out of respect that does not prevent me from conforming. In the same way, if I am talking to someone who finds certain words objectionable, out of respect I will not use those words in front of them even though I might use the same words under different circumstances. The use of certain words in certain situations is just ill-mannered. But I suspect you have no regard for good manners either since they go hand in hand.


I guess we cannot.
Frank Apisa June 06, 2019 at 09:31 #295042
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
1k
?Brett
?Frank Apisa
To add to the above, how are we to insult anyone if all words are deemed ‘polite’?



“I did not attend his funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.”
? Mark Twain

“Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go.”
? Oscar Wilde

“I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it.”
? Groucho Marx


Winston S. Churchill
“He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

[On British Labour politician Stafford Cripps.]”

“He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends.”
? Oscar Wilde

“That woman speaks eighteen languages, and can't say 'No' in any of them.”
? Dorothy Parker, While Rome Burns

“A member of Parliament to Disraeli: 'Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease.'

That depends, Sir,' said Disraeli, 'whether I embrace your policies or your mistress.”

“He has Van Gogh’s ear for music.”
? Billy Wilder

I could go on...but...

I like sushi June 06, 2019 at 09:45 #295047
Reply to Frank Apisa Fair point. Wilde’s are killers! I get the impression that humour changes the battle ground of insults though? If I was on the receiving end of one of Wilde’s insults I would feel honoured more than insulted! Maybe it’s simply a matter of wit and/or simplicity?

If we wish to plain vicious I expect all humour drains away. Your quotes above all make people smile and I imagine only a few of the recipients of them were truly insulted (due to lack of wit and humour?)

If I was to call you a “Fucking hypocrite!” I don’t see how such could be taken as humour ... then I find myself siding on the context and situation of such speech as being a witless retort at best meant to express utter repulsion. It is good to let someone know that they’ve gone too far quickly and not everyone has the wit to come up with some of the above so “Fuckwit” suffices.

I don’t say “Hi there you old cunt!” to my grandmother because she’d be insulted. I have no real need to insult my grandmother either. Context and situation permitting I may have in the future though ;)
Fooloso4 June 06, 2019 at 13:18 #295092
Quoting Frank Apisa
I guess we cannot.


No Frank, it is not that we cannot but that we do not artificially designate certain words as "bad" and others as "good. We do not each get to decide what words means, just as we do not each get to decide how one should behave in public. That is not to say that one cannot decide to be boorish or have difficultly not being so or clueless as to their own boorishness, but neither what we say nor what we do is limited to private or solitary activity.

S June 07, 2019 at 10:39 #295291
Reply to Frank Apisa Etiquette. I prefer a liberal attitude to language use, but it has a time and a place. I won't, for example, be complimenting customers on their lovely cunts or impressive cocks.
S June 07, 2019 at 10:43 #295292
Quoting Frank Apisa
“A member of Parliament to Disraeli: 'Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease.'

That depends, Sir,' said Disraeli, 'whether I embrace your policies or your mistress.”


Like a boss. :cool:
Deleteduserrc June 09, 2019 at 04:25 #295838
Quoting Frank Apisa
I would not do that.

I am talking about a concept here.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Can we have an actual philosophical conversation?


I've been having a philosophical conversation with you. But it seems like nothing registers as 'philosophical' until that person either agrees with you or sets you up for some tawdry Oscar-Wilde-clone come back. You can't just sit at the wise-misanthrope home-plate waiting for fastballs down the center. You're neither Kurt Vonnegut nor Mark Twain.

Frank, you're much older than me, and I appreciate your wisdom, but your philosophy sucks. You have some vague problem w/ censorship. I'm sorry W.C. Fields never said 'fuck.'

You have some vague, frankly stupid, ideas about how censorship works. They're not, or at least haven't been so far, interesting.

That's what my post was. Either figure out how to respond interestingly, or keep doing your 'under appreciated golf course oscar wilde' bit for no one.



Frank Apisa June 09, 2019 at 11:17 #295929
Quoting csalisbury
I've been having a philosophical conversation with you. But it seems like nothing registers as 'philosophical' until that person either agrees with you or sets you up for some tawdry Oscar-Wilde-clone come back. You can't just sit at the wise-misanthrope home-plate waiting for fastballs down the center. You're neither Kurt Vonnegut nor Mark Twain.

Frank, you're much older than me, and I appreciate your wisdom, but your philosophy sucks. You have some vague problem w/ censorship. I'm sorry W.C. Fields never said 'fuck.'


That should have been, "Frank, you're much older than I."

Yeah...but my "philosophy" does not suck. And I am not interested in censorship on this issue.

I acknowledge point blank that things will not change. I am merely pointing out the absurdity of denoting certain words as "unacceptable"...a practice more pernicious than using the language some consider as unacceptable.

The word "shit" for instance should be every bit as acceptable as "feces." The arbitrary "one is acceptable the other is not" is an affront to intelligence, if not sanity.

You know the other words that should be every bit as acceptable as their "acceptable" counterparts.

I am not saying we will change and stop the nonsense any more than I am saying that "proper dress" should include a tie for "gentlemen" when on the floor of the House. I am merely attempting to discuss the issue...and not having a lot of success.

We invent these absurd "standards" and then live by them as though they make sense...when they make about as much sense as neck-banding or face tattooing or teeth sharpening.

It is a discussion about that...and appears to be so painful that some, like you at the moment, can barely tolerate it.

csalisbury:You have some vague, frankly stupid, ideas about how censorship works. They're not, or at least haven't been so far, interesting.


I have not even mentioned censorship.

A new thread of mine was censored, supposedly for being of low quality, mostly because I used some taboo words to make a point about them not being indicative of unfriendliness or anger.

So what is your point here?

csalisbury:That's what my post was. Either figure out how to respond interestingly, or keep doing your 'under appreciated golf course oscar wilde' bit for no one.


What is this about? I am not trying to be Oscar Wilde...and I AM responding interestingly. For some reason my responses bother people here...a good number of people, I acknowledge. But I am serious about the discussion and topic and truly do not understand what the fuck is going on with the reaction to me trying to make my point.

K?

fishfry June 09, 2019 at 12:02 #295941
Quoting Frank Apisa
Why is the word “cuff” just fine, but pronounced backwards, considered offensive?


As George Carlin said, you can prick your finger, but you can't finger your prick.
Frank Apisa June 09, 2019 at 12:16 #295942
Quoting fishfry
fishfry
607

Why is the word “cuff” just fine, but pronounced backwards, considered offensive? — Frank Apisa


As George Carlin said, you can prick your finger, but you can't finger your prick.


Yup.

George Carlin was a hero of mine on this issue...which is an issue I have written about for decades now. He recognized the absurdity of some of the language conventions...and mocked them in an entertaining way.

The issue itself seems to set part of the world into a tizzy. (Talk about bullshit language!)

Anyway...I've given it a shot here. I may continue, but it seems the clientele is way too uptight for this kind of discussion. They'd rather pretend they understand what people like Wittgenstein, Hegel, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, and Schopenhauer...suggested.

Gotta go with the flow!
I like sushi June 10, 2019 at 08:45 #296160
Reply to Frank Apisa It’s beautiful that people can be offended. Without such people where would comedy be?

Those that cling to being offended are after all the givers of Comedy. We feat on their sorry-ass flesh with decadent delight! Praise be the sensitive and frail who bemoan the woes of their circumstances above those of any other.

Such just desserts! Delicious! Yum yum :yum:
Frank Apisa June 10, 2019 at 09:04 #296167
Quoting I like sushi
I like sushi
1.1k
?Frank Apisa
It’s beautiful that people can be offended. Without such people where would comedy be?

Those that cling to being offended are after all the givers of Comedy. We feat on their sorry-ass flesh with decadent delight! Praise be the sensitive and frail who bemoan the woes of their circumstances above those of any other.

Such just desserts! Delicious! Yum yum :yum:


Indeed, Sushi.

Just posted in the forum and got notice of this post.

I LOVE it.
Brett June 10, 2019 at 09:46 #296176
Quoting Frank Apisa
I have not even mentioned censorship.


You want to ban the idea of offensive words existing, as being offensive.
Frank Apisa June 10, 2019 at 09:53 #296177
Quoting Brett
Brett
521

I have not even mentioned censorship. — Frank Apisa


You want to ban the idea of offensive words existing, as being offensive.


I want no such fucking thing...and have never suggested any such fucking thing.

I am merely pointing out the absurdity of the notion. I also am pointing out the fact that my guess is that the notion will be retained by society for as long as society exists.

Read what I write before commenting on what you want to suppose I wrote.
Brett June 10, 2019 at 10:17 #296188
Quoting Frank Apisa
I want no such fucking thing...and have never suggested any such fucking thing.


Well then, just let things go, stop being so offended.
I like sushi June 10, 2019 at 10:20 #296189
Reply to Brett It offends me that you think he’s offended!

I am assuming this is basically about the absurdity of language and how words possess a certain weight to them when they’re merely squiggly marks on a screen/page or sounds uttered.
Brett June 10, 2019 at 10:29 #296193
Quoting I like sushi
It offends me that you think he’s offended!



Quoting Frank Apisa
Or does it mean that society has decided to pick out certain words (sound, actually) and insist that “proper” people not use those words in public?

I think the latter…and I think the notion stinks like an unwashed asshole.



It’s not that I think it, he said it.



Brett June 10, 2019 at 10:38 #296200
Reply to Frank Apisa

I do understand your feelings about the absurdity, but the replies to your posts point out that it’s not so absurd after all, and they’re very lucid in making their point. So then it appears you just want to be offended by the absurdity of it all.