Should fines be levied in proportion to an offenders income?
First of all, I hope this is in the right category. I'm assuming this is analogous to the Philosophy of politics and law category at the old place.
Equal justice under the law is an ideal that all democratic nations strive to acheive. But how how can a fine that is levied without regard to an individuals income be considered equal justice?
A fine is designed to sting in order to deter the offender from making the same mistake in the future. A 300 shekel fine is obviously going to sting a lot more for the person making 35,000 shekels a year than it is for the person making 20,000,000 shekels.
We have all head the stories of rich douchebags like Steve Jobs not using liscence plates and parking in handicap spots, richSaudi princes using the streets of american neighborhoods like a personal race track, and multinational corporations pricing fines into their calculations as just another cost of buisness.
I think it's time that all offenders feel the same sting and not just suffer equal monetary damages when it comes to fines.
Equal justice under the law is an ideal that all democratic nations strive to acheive. But how how can a fine that is levied without regard to an individuals income be considered equal justice?
A fine is designed to sting in order to deter the offender from making the same mistake in the future. A 300 shekel fine is obviously going to sting a lot more for the person making 35,000 shekels a year than it is for the person making 20,000,000 shekels.
We have all head the stories of rich douchebags like Steve Jobs not using liscence plates and parking in handicap spots, richSaudi princes using the streets of american neighborhoods like a personal race track, and multinational corporations pricing fines into their calculations as just another cost of buisness.
I think it's time that all offenders feel the same sting and not just suffer equal monetary damages when it comes to fines.
Comments (14)
Proportionality in fining individuals is worth considering.
Meow!
GREG
Being the godless communist that I am, I can see the merit in having a fine proportionate to one's income.
However, I can see the argument (without agreeing with it) that all individuals should be equal before the law in their punishment. Then again, the lofty ideal of equality-before-the-law has never been fully achieved, and, to make matters more complicated, their are two perceptions of achieving it:
The Proportional Method: Since nobody can truly be economically equal, the law should operate proportionally to income. The law should acknowledge the wealth gap between agents, and should compensate for the sake of egalitarianism.
The "Justice is Blind" Method: In theory, this mode of justice should completely ignore everything but the facts pertaining to the case: the agent(s) and the action(s). Wealth and privilege should be ignored, because that is the only way legal equality to be achieved.
There's quite a bit of dialectical tension between the two. I for one can see these schools of thoughts permeating American politics and culture. The question is, which one is more in line with that good ol' fashioned sense of Liberal Egalitarianism.
Indeed... I am the very rare exception.
I do know that in Austria the penalties for speeding (as an example) are at near dumping prices (also, such things are not reported to insurance companies like in the USA, so no raise in insurance premiums either), as well as it taking an act of extreme horror for anyone to actually lose their license (that they get one at a heavy cost, but never ever need to renew or be re-evaluated if they can still drive safely within the law); thus we lead Europe in the category of 'most aggressive drivers'. (Cars replaced god a long time ago in Austria as the deity of choice.)
Considering the disproportion of wealth to cost of penalty (consequences), I suppose one might find a correlation between if a crime costs little no one will really pay much heed to following the rules. :-$
Indeed I am wealthy... in terms of time. I suppose taking that would make more sense than my cats. If you try to take them, they will probably hit you where it hurts. Remember they have claws and teeth and are in really good shape. >:)
Meow! (emphasis upon the OW!)
GREG
Mostly though, people are just really aggressive speeding drivers. A few weeks ago as well, I heard on the radio that someone was going around throwing rocks at photo radar vehicles, and wasn't getting caught, lol. I myself have two speeding tickets, unpaid. Mainly because you have to pay them at government agencies that close at like five in the afternoon, and I just don't have time for that. Now that they're past due, I have to pay them at a court house, which I will do when work ends. Five more houses as it stands.
Yes, I should definitely have to pay less for fines than some rich bastard. Did a house for one guy awhile ago that had a "wall of shame" in his garage with over ten thousand dollars worth of speeding tickets pinned to it, that guy ought to pay more than me.
Wow. I didn't know this this was already a policy in some countries. This is just another, in a long list of reasons, why Europe is superior.
This is not a simple concept, though. Consider the windfall to the injured party when he has the fortune of being injured by a rich guy and not a poor guy. Consider also the fact that those with money are typically insured, meaning they will be covered for their loss. Punish away, but the rich have a whipping boy that will accept their punishment for them.
In the criminal context, fines are usually limited by statute within a range. As a general matter, the wealth of the party is an irrelevant consideration by the court, as justice is supposed to be blind to such matters.
Why is that? Consider the other side of the coin. Should I imprison a rich person for one day considering he would lose a considerable amount of money and reputation, but I should imprison a homeless person for a month for the same crime because his loss of freedom would be of minimal consequence to him? That is to say, if we look upon wealth with a blind eye, then neither the rich nor the poor will receive extra benefit or punishment based upon their status. The rich are not, despite the prevalent view here, inherently bad.
It's obvious that the argument that I made above is bad, it treats peoples attitudes as if they are the same in all cultures, it isn't backed up by any empirical evidence and it's claiming to fix a problem without any indication that the problem exists.
Quoting Hanover
I agree there often are anti-rich undertones in these types of discussions.
I want to re-frame the question away from fines being meant to sting. This approach mostly comes into play after people have received a fine, but the point of the cameras/cops is stop the behaviors that result in the issuing of fines in the first place. Ideally I wouldn't even say fines are meant to deter, their final goal (besides the revenue, lots and lots of revenue) is to create safer roads, deterring specific behaviors may or may not achieve this.
If we do concentrate on deterrence, is there research to indicate that the wealthy are not being deterred? Any evidence that shows that cross culturally the wealthy are more likely to breach the road rules and that the major factor is the comparatively low sting of the fine? Is there actually a real problem of the unsafe driving of the wealthy that needs to be addressed?
Part of the reason why the argument in the OP is more convincing than the argument at the top of my post it because it can give us a sense of indignation. The fines hurt me so it seems unfair that there are others who don't feel that same sting.
This profiteering extinguished hundreds of thousands of innocent lives and brought whole countries to their knees.