Invasion of Privacy
Hello everyone,
This is my first post on this site. I tried my best to not make this long winded, but I've undoubtedly failed to do so. :/
There are many overwhelming feelings and perceptions that bring me here today. I want to call into question and assess the more significant, generally themed issues I deal with.
First off, I have been diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder. I bring my mental condition up because it pertains to how I perceive (and can mispercieve) the reality I exist in and affects my thought process when interpreting it. I, however, tend to be especially cautious with what my intuition can suggest to me. I accept that euphemistically speaking, 'my barometer is broken'.
It may seem like my discussion would be more appropriately posed in another category, but I've chosen to submit it in ethics because this is more about discussing the implications of what I can only at best suspect (made more limited by my impaired sense of reality), as opposed to trying to prove what's led me to hypothesize what I'm questioning in the first place. I know full well the instances and correlations of what has brought me to challenge what I've perceived (and how I personally experience the patterns I interpret) are compromised. However, that misses the point in this case, because I'm not asking to discuss accuracy. I am questioning the ethics of a problem I at the very least subjectively discern and experience in my day to day ongoings (however compromised that experience is in lining up with reality).
In exploring the implications of something I can only at best hypothesize, I consider that Science similarly allows for the scrutiny of claims scientists pose. This is one of the ways to determine if an observation holds up to our reality -- even before consensus -- and concludes it does so if it is expected to fulfill the steps necessary to meet the status of being a tested theory. I'll probably never have all that's necessary to fully verify or debunk what I suspect is happening to me either way. What I've inferred (or mis-inferred) still presents ethical implications I would like to hypothetically and thoroughly explore in discussion.
I will start off by describing a factual details about myself.
I am a 30 year old man who is homeless. I live in the US. I receive a disability check for my mental disability (which I underscore is legitimate for those whom will undoubtedly be dubious concerning my condition). I have no criminal record. I have not been able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months due to the overwhelming paranoia I experience in the work settings I happen to be in when I do attempt to proceed with employment.
I have trouble maintaining friendships and distance myself from family, save my mother (though I am the only child of a single mother and have no siblings from either parent, so, it's not difficult to be distant of extended family). I began having what is considered to be an unhealthy and "immoral" sexual relationship with a 34 year old man when I was 10 years of age; this lasted until I was about to turn 14 (I kept this from everyone until I turned 25 and finally told my mom). At this moment, I choose to be agnostic (I neither affirm nor deny God's existence -- how can I?).
It can most likely be inferred from what I stated above that I am a homosexual. I struggle with social anxiety (specifically agoraphobia and gelotophobia). I often search out erotica on online communities as a way of appeasing my sexual curiosities, and I feel I encounter peers I share an affinity with on such community forums -- more so than in real life or on other sites (though I am hoping this forum achieves the same effect on me). I am for the most part in agreement with and an adherent of an Objectivist school of thought.
I address these facts and subjective stances to shed some light on my circumstances and personal nature. I believe they are pertinant to this discussion. Again, not looking for people to feel sorry for me. I'm more aiming to share relavent details about myself that relate back to my concern. This is my attempt in providing a bird's eye view of significant factors to keep in mind.
I suspect I am being consistently tracked and casually harassed. I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, which is fair enough. Nevertheless, I want this stance to be set aside in order to get to what I'd more to the point like to address.
I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights. This excludes a cause for a terrorist investigation or justified concern by DHS -- whom are trained to properly handle bypassing a citizen's individual rights of privacy (for the most part, or at the very least are supposed to be) -- in order to determine a possible national threat.
I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.
Even though this is considered very unlikely, it's not altogether implausible. Simply put, if this were to occur, then, what do you believe are the ethical implications?
This is my first post on this site. I tried my best to not make this long winded, but I've undoubtedly failed to do so. :/
There are many overwhelming feelings and perceptions that bring me here today. I want to call into question and assess the more significant, generally themed issues I deal with.
First off, I have been diagnosed with Schizoaffective Disorder. I bring my mental condition up because it pertains to how I perceive (and can mispercieve) the reality I exist in and affects my thought process when interpreting it. I, however, tend to be especially cautious with what my intuition can suggest to me. I accept that euphemistically speaking, 'my barometer is broken'.
It may seem like my discussion would be more appropriately posed in another category, but I've chosen to submit it in ethics because this is more about discussing the implications of what I can only at best suspect (made more limited by my impaired sense of reality), as opposed to trying to prove what's led me to hypothesize what I'm questioning in the first place. I know full well the instances and correlations of what has brought me to challenge what I've perceived (and how I personally experience the patterns I interpret) are compromised. However, that misses the point in this case, because I'm not asking to discuss accuracy. I am questioning the ethics of a problem I at the very least subjectively discern and experience in my day to day ongoings (however compromised that experience is in lining up with reality).
In exploring the implications of something I can only at best hypothesize, I consider that Science similarly allows for the scrutiny of claims scientists pose. This is one of the ways to determine if an observation holds up to our reality -- even before consensus -- and concludes it does so if it is expected to fulfill the steps necessary to meet the status of being a tested theory. I'll probably never have all that's necessary to fully verify or debunk what I suspect is happening to me either way. What I've inferred (or mis-inferred) still presents ethical implications I would like to hypothetically and thoroughly explore in discussion.
I will start off by describing a factual details about myself.
I am a 30 year old man who is homeless. I live in the US. I receive a disability check for my mental disability (which I underscore is legitimate for those whom will undoubtedly be dubious concerning my condition). I have no criminal record. I have not been able to hold down a job for more than a couple of months due to the overwhelming paranoia I experience in the work settings I happen to be in when I do attempt to proceed with employment.
I have trouble maintaining friendships and distance myself from family, save my mother (though I am the only child of a single mother and have no siblings from either parent, so, it's not difficult to be distant of extended family). I began having what is considered to be an unhealthy and "immoral" sexual relationship with a 34 year old man when I was 10 years of age; this lasted until I was about to turn 14 (I kept this from everyone until I turned 25 and finally told my mom). At this moment, I choose to be agnostic (I neither affirm nor deny God's existence -- how can I?).
It can most likely be inferred from what I stated above that I am a homosexual. I struggle with social anxiety (specifically agoraphobia and gelotophobia). I often search out erotica on online communities as a way of appeasing my sexual curiosities, and I feel I encounter peers I share an affinity with on such community forums -- more so than in real life or on other sites (though I am hoping this forum achieves the same effect on me). I am for the most part in agreement with and an adherent of an Objectivist school of thought.
I address these facts and subjective stances to shed some light on my circumstances and personal nature. I believe they are pertinant to this discussion. Again, not looking for people to feel sorry for me. I'm more aiming to share relavent details about myself that relate back to my concern. This is my attempt in providing a bird's eye view of significant factors to keep in mind.
I suspect I am being consistently tracked and casually harassed. I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, which is fair enough. Nevertheless, I want this stance to be set aside in order to get to what I'd more to the point like to address.
I want to now ask anyone interested in this topic to share the ethical implications you feel having this done to a someone undermines as a private citizen who has Human Rights. This excludes a cause for a terrorist investigation or justified concern by DHS -- whom are trained to properly handle bypassing a citizen's individual rights of privacy (for the most part, or at the very least are supposed to be) -- in order to determine a possible national threat.
I'm more referring to "vigilante" private citizens. A formed group composed of those whom are technologically proficient and whom may have the resources necessary to hack someone. Their motivation may be to "karmically" punish someone for interests found to be reprehensible and suspect. Invading such an individual's privacy systematically (phone camera, audio, geo-location, online activities, accounts, etc.) being their method of obtaining intimate details.They may then weaponize the information they've gleaned against such an individual.
Even though this is considered very unlikely, it's not altogether implausible. Simply put, if this were to occur, then, what do you believe are the ethical implications?
Comments (133)
Interesting read. I hope you find comfort in life.
In noticing this one bit, I couldn't help but see parallels with the treatment of black Americans. Whether it is police, or a concerned citizen ("concerned citizen" sounds way too nice for these people), people feel the need to monitor their behavior.
Quoting THX1138
While she was not violent, but the quote above reminds me of that white lady that called the police on a young (like 5-8 years old) black girl selling bottled waters.
I agree with you that this type of citizen monitoring is immoral (unless EVERYONE is monitored - and that is very unlikely until our A.I. overlords emerge). But I do NOT feel that I have really had to suffer this type of treatment. So, all I can do is offer condolences.
There are a few philosophers here who happen to be black. I am not sure if they are American.
@Pattern-chaser @Anaxagoras If I am correct in assuming you are black (I apologize if I am wrong), do you see any parallels? Any advice for someone who feels their actions are constantly monitored whether by government entities or private jerks?
Can you elaborate? I'm sorry brain is not working properly.
Of or relating to people whose gender identity is the same as their birth sex; not transgender
I think everyone has conflicting urges in this regard, on the one hand for being known, as fame or intimacy, and on the other for privacy and anonymity. A hundred years ago, most people lived in a small community - a village - and were so intimately known to their neighbours that keeping any secret was extremely difficult.
And now the internet has produced a global village where secrets are equally difficult to keep. There are real moral issues around stalkers, vigilantes, gossips, and manipulators, but though the technology is new, the morality and immorality is not. Witch-hunts have a history.
The US, and Objectivism in particular, has a great emphasis on the individual, as if every man is the pioneer building his own world alone with his bare hands, whereas China, say, or Europe, has a much more social, community based view of identity. This leads in turn to a rather rigid and intolerant identity in the US, such that any failure to thrive is seen as a personal failure rather than a social problem. One might say that the only social problem is that there are so many personal failures.
So you may be resistant to the idea that the society you live in, or rather fail to properly live in, is set up to keep you out. Failure is privatised and success is publicised, and you are brought up in a shaming world the keeps you out and blames you for it. And a diagnosis of mental illness is the nearest thing to an exoneration you can get.
If you want a theorist/therapist who makes a strong connection between childhood experiences and adult problems, Gabor Mate might be your man.
Quoting THX1138
Have you recently received an email telling you that you have been recorded on your webcam while watching pornographic material?
If so, that is a scam, as reported here https://blog.malwarebytes.com/cybercrime/2019/02/sextortion-bitcoin-scam-makes-unwelcome-return/
In a nutshell, many websites get hacked, when a website gets hacked the hackers can often get access to the email/password combinations used on the website, then they sell that data on the deep web. Then some scammers write you an email and mention the password in the database as supposed proof that they have targeted you personally, then pretend they have recorded you doing questionable stuff to extort money from you.
If this is not what happened to you, then to answer your question more directly, I suppose it would depend on how reprehensible your interests are. If you have evidence of them harrassing you, you could go to the police. If you don't want the police to know about your interests but want to keep doing what you're doing without being targeted, and you have evidence that your computer has been compromised, you could learn about computer security to prevent it from happening again.
Honest I think. :chin:
Some people are monstrous, psychic vampires, and vicious, violent physical attackers. Armed with technology they certainly are a force to be reckoned with and they are altogether damned. If this is the only world where judgment is meted out than those best at violence win.
I've been going to the same mental clinic for the last 11 years, Riverside - the largest in the state of California, and schizophrenia seems to be one of the hardest conditions to deal with. I'm always looking for friends too, it's easier for me, I'm diagnosed bipolar type 2. My only real episodes occur when my computer slows or I forget where I placed something. Trying to work on both.
hahhaha. well, not even close on that one, got to work on that reading comprehension. at least I let the OP know of at last one poster they can ignore (me) :grimace:
Evidence is suggesting that it was my brain that was not working. The OP was worried about being monitored by government or civilian vigilantes. I have not had to deal with that experience, but was thinking that black people in America may have dealt with that.
However, I have been jumping to conclusions here on both ethnicity and nationalities, so if it does not pertain to anything in your life, that is entirely my fault. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Quoting THX1138
Corporations are tracking you on line, certainly. They are tracking all of us, and would like to track us much more -- not for reasons of national security, but for reasons of commerce. They want to sell us stuff; in all likelihood, they want to sell us stuff we don't need, and may not even want. They aren't interested in us as "persons" so much as potential sales. Now, this isn't exactly new. Intensive, national sales efforts have been underway in the industrial world for at least a century.
The Government has the wherewithal to track us, too. After 9/11 a massive surveillance effort was undertaken to sift internet traffic (e-mail and text messages) for signs of conspiracies. As far as I know (and why would I know anything about it?) this effort failed to find many conspirators.
People are "leaking" all sorts of information about themselves. Carrying a cell phone with you at all times allows for a trail of one's locations to exist. People blather away on Twitter, Facebook, and so forth -- providing all sorts of information about themselves. Corporations track what you buy, through the use of the check-out scanner and credit-card payment systems. Target, for instance, is able to identify when their female customers are pregnant by tracking changes in purchasing. The changes are subtle, and indirect -- but consistent enough for a pattern to be detected. Why is Target interested in pregnant women? Because they want to establish a close relationship with that pregnant woman that will last for years of purchasing. Money, money, money.
So, your fears about privacy are hardly paranoid.
At least he made the effort to keep things clear.
Quoting tim wood
Whether absurdities are necessary or not I gave up trying to figure out a long time ago. In today's world it is sometimes even difficult to decide if somethings are absurd or not. I start doubting if one still has the ability to distinguish it from the norm. :gasp:
Transgender six year old. Absurd or not? Take a decision.
Quoting tim wood
I don't encourage anyone to rant, ........................well maybe sometimes. :halo:
As you and others have stated, there are hackers getting information from all kinds of websites and even websites that are set up for the purpose of obtaining information about people then disappearing. Banks have been known to share information about you spending habits. Interactive devices that sit around your house, even your cellphone listens to you. Cameras, public and private follow you around watching what you are doing. You are being monitored, most people that live in even small towns are. You cannot escape it unless you move to the woods.
Is it morally correct to monitor people? That would depend on what was done with the information gained from doing so. Murderers and other criminal have been caught, traffic problems have been prevented from becoming dangerous to motorists, people are being provided with better services when shopping and many other examples of benign use can be shown.
But if the information being garnered was to be used for targeting individuals for financial gain or even for screwing people's lives up just for fun, then that is highly immoral.
I'm Hispanic and my ethnicity is a non-factor in the part of the U.S. I'm at (there are still parts in the U.S. that aren't Hispanic shunning, though I can relate a bit to being alienated, for one reason or another. There happen to be many things about myself that deviate from convention, that's an accurate inference.
I do understand why it occurred to you, ZhouBoTong, to draw a parallel between the not too distantly passed (and not altogether presently eliminated) struggle African-Americans have had to sustain in the U.S. and the treatment I deal with, which seems more to do with the resulting approach from others (mistreatment) more than particularities of circumstance.
I just happened to experience not only personal neglect, I also had to manage being psychologically conditioned with concepts that discouraged my intrinsic nature (Christianity looming over me as my homosexuality surfaced). I have many other challenges too, which only served to compound the distress and utter lack of support in my life growing up.
These aren't my excuses, I ultimately account for my decisions and actions (when being accused of something that's accurate, or the severity of consequence I should sustain from any legitimate accusation). I'm merely mapping out the conditional steps and factors that have led me to this point.
My thought process is... disorganized. Despite this, I've been told that for a schizophrenic, I have great self-awareness and am exceptionally measured in handling perceived contention. I still notice people communicating -- usually passive-aggressively, other times, taking a more ambushed, offensive way of going about it -- that I'm aversive and contemptiously unwelcomed.
Again, I know these perceptions are a textbook example of schizophrenic symptoms. But, just because I'm mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean the community I'm in -- and by extension, others in any other area I relocate to via relayed information -- wouldn't sociologically have a problem with me for specific reasons, reasons that aren't racially, sexual orientation, mental competency or even socioeconomically rooted.
I have the impression it primarily has to do with my ideology. My sense of what's "okay", which they aren't okay with.
I mentioned I had what is considered an inappropriate sexual relationship with a grown man when I was a young boy. As a result of this experience, I don't feel that an individual who wants to consensually (not in the technical, legal sense but in the typical definition of consensual) have sex with any other consenting individual should be prohibited from doing so due to age.
And, there it is. I know what I experienced, this is how I feel.
This doesn't mean I want to live in a society where this is aimed for, because I know most children don't desire to have sex before puberty (from what I can tell). I don't even mind being in a society where it's illegal, so be it. By personal experience, I know that there are cases like mine. I've met them personally -- other men whom had sex with older men when they were underage and don't feel they were raped. To me, rape is sex against the willingness of anyone who may be involved. What I made the decision to do twenty years ago was not against my will. How I decide to assess my experience now is my own opinion.
I'm not on a mission to perpetuate this stance -- which, I have personally confirmed I am not alone in maintaining). I understand my case is an anomaly (though, not as scarce as most others would prefer to believe). I realize my outlook is immoral and moreover -- illegal.
I've never sexually offended a child, in any legal sense or otherwise. I experimented with other children when I myself was still a child, both older and younger than I. I'm betting that most if not all of you would refuse to believe that sexually interacting with children isn't something I intend to ever do, but, it's not. I'm still attracted to older men, though do enjoy vicariously watching porn with a more mature man and eighteen year old teen duo (which is legal and widely available). I only feel that children should have a choice if they of their own accord and volition (as was the case with me) have a desire to seek it out. I agree the general inclination of children whom this inkling doesn't apply to to be of innocence while they grow up. But, I accept that there are an extremely small minority of children that gravitate to seeking sex out, as I already was years before my puberty.
So, to me, the way I feel could easily be fodder for phone pinging and gas lighting, if others were aware of how I really feel. I don't think anyone would believe I can currently champion Human Rights -- especially consent -- and simultaneously not be ideologically troubled by the idea of a pursuant underage individual making the willing choice to engage in sexual activity. I'm not a fan of people having to be subjugated to experiences they feel traumatize them and go against their nature and will, which in my case, came in the form religious shaming. Of course, I know religion isn't always weaponized, but, during my childhoid, it was used to get me to deny and "cast out" my sexual orientation -- however ineffective it was in discouraging me. I'm still haunted by pastors and church members rebuking "demons" out of me and the personification of my sexuality as a possesdive demonic entity (which warped my mind as a kid).
I willingly decided to experience what I experienced. I am what I am. I have no desire to be predatory to children. My past experiences may influence my ideals, but they do not correlate with my intentions. My ideals are indicative of what I've personally lived and my perspective based on how I felt then and how I feel about it now. I'm not looking to harm anyone nor degrade the moral of society.
I just know my reality, even if I'm schizophrenic. I don't think I deserve to be oppressed when I'm doing my best to be considerate of others the way I'd like them to be considerate of me, while also being sincere about how I actually feel.
Is that unreasonable? Does that make me weak by consensus?
A. A childhood sexual experience.
B. A debilitating mental health condition.
And you seem to think there is no connection. I am not in a position to contradict you, but I am rather dubious. But I don't think it would be appropriate to go into that further on this site. I hope you can somehow find a trustworthy person to go into all this with in the real world.
I am of the idea to let people do whatever they want, as long as it is what they want and no one is forced in the process.
I don't think it's too uncommon for 10 years old boys or girls to have some sort of sexual desires, but I would think that in most cases they are fantasies and that if presented with the occasion they wouldn't actually go through with it.
I don't know how your relationship with that 34 years old man started, but I would think he is the one who initiated you, rather than you actively looking for that kind of relationship back then.
If you weren't traumatized at all by this experience, but you truly enjoyed it, then what's bothering you is how society treats these kinds of experiences, making you an outcast. On the one hand there is you, who apparently enjoyed that experience with this older man, and on the other hand there are plenty of people who strongly desire to torture or kill older men who have these experiences with young people.
It's a touchy subject. There are/were societies and communities where this is acceptable, but today you live in a society where it's totally not. Obviously parents do not want their children to be soiled and mentally/physically destroyed by disgusting child molesters, hence the usual strong reaction. But at the same time, as a boy I probably wouldn't have minded having a sexual relationship with a woman I fantasized about as long as I was a willing participant, I surely wouldn't have been traumatized unless there had been coercion involved. On the other hand the bullying I experienced at school was real and traumatizing, but society doesn't mind that much about that, so go figure. There is some torture that society deems acceptable, and there are consensual enjoyable acts that society deems horrible and deserving of torture.
You mentioned being diagnosed with schizophrenia, do you know what led to this diagnosis?
Here is how he referred to this childhood sexual experience:
"What I made the decision to do twenty years ago was not against my will"
"I willingly decided to experience what I experienced"
Here is how he referred to how he was treated for being attracted to men:
"I'm not a fan of people having to be subjugated to experiences they feel traumatize them and go against their nature and will, which in my case, came in the form religious shaming"
"I'm still haunted by pastors and church members rebuking "demons" out of me and the personification of my sexuality as a possessive demonic entity (which warped my mind as a kid)"
If you're looking for a connection between his past experiences and his current mental health, I would rather pick the experiences that actually traumatized him.
Childhood sexuality among consenting children is a taboo when it probably shouldn't be. Pedagogy students for nurseries here (Norway) are now being taught to be quite accepting of child sexuality among children, and this comes along with educating children about consent from a very young age. I don't know how long this has been going on for, but it looks to be an important shift.
At least when I was growing up, sexuality was treated either as a matter for human anatomy or shame, and people largely got their first knowledge about sexuality from word of mouth or porn mags (the internet was still too young for widespread porn videos). Cue hilarious misunderstandings from young men thinking women pee out their buttholes.
Though towards the end of college (16-18 year old), sex ed included explicit lessons about sexual consent. Whereas the previous sex ed (at 12 years of age) consisted of watching a video of anthropomorphic (and suspiciously colour coded, pink=female white=male) rabbits fucking.
Anyway, welcome to the asylum. You're unlikely to find anyone prejudiced against the mentally ill here, and if you do find your treatment uncomfortable personal message a mod and we'll try and deal with the issue.
Your own emotional/psychological experience, and the insight it allowed you to gain is precisely my point.
I almost feel like the vast majority of people in society are scared to admit that before the age of legal consent, they've pined for at least one adult sexually. This doesn't indicate they are predators or sick in the head, only that this is natural and quite common. I'm also not advocating that this cites a just reason to encourage relations between individuals under eighteen and those over this age. It just is what it is, no matter what societal institutions are put in place to regulate Human behavior to some general ideal daned to be the most beneficial to society as a whole.
On the same token, conditions that can pose physical dangers and are deeply traumatizing psychologically individuals generally assessed to being strange, unflattering, etc. (but whom are otherwise not intent on endangering or mistreating anyone) are maintained and rationalized under the same supposition -- that this "discouragement" is in the long run beneficial to the social development of those within society, a natural reflex maintained by the Darwinian alphas keeping those whom exhibit non-ideal qualities and "shameful" ideas in their place and in check, even when such ideas don't exploit nor harm others and are only faulting in that they stray from mainstream standards.
Ironically enough, being subjected to the torment of constant bullying and -- worst of all -- bystanders around the victim inadvertantly reinforcing these thugs' sense of bellicose entitlement with their enabling complacency over unprovoked acts of antagonism and consternation toward victims is more against Humans' Civil rights than what bullies often argue they revile and reprehend. Their own methods contradict their argument -- that whatever deviant individual they've targeted poses a threat to the "more vulnerable" if an example isn't made out of them. They insist that tolerance to simply agree to disagree is to them in effect agreeing, and that their violent and/or psychologically abusive reprehensions are not acts of entitlement, moreso ways to combat and weaken an introduction and thriving of detriment on their watch.
But selective condemnation and aggression toward individuals whom deviate from societal ideals by their subjective way of thinking, behaving and/or being is pretty effed up, when oftentimes, these individuals aren't out to harm anyone. The abusers whom do so almost seem like imperial tyrants to me when I consider the usual reasons they underscore for "standing up" for what they believe in (by "knocking down" anyone who thinks otherwise, both physically and psychologically down).
As exaggerated as my depiction of abusers/bullies may come off as and as compromised as my perspective may be taken, there very much are a good number of people whom are this extreme and imposing about their ideals, to a point of being offensive, often cunningly and non-overtly enough to where victims can't evidence the abuse -- that's if anyone who can do something just about it even decides take it seriously or care enough to. Abuse by neglect (like parents, teachers, family members, people responsible for the wellbeing of students, etc.) is underrated.
As far as my diagnosis of schizophrenia, I was diagnosed when I was nineteen after my first major breakdown. I became anorexic because I developed a religious fixation to fasting, in a desperate attempt to to be pure and faithful enough toward God to merit being rid of the "demon" inhabiting my body (the "demon" being my sexual thoughts and orientation). I was also in constant fear that I had inadvertently committed or would inevitably commit the one unforgivable Christian sin -- blasphemy against the holy spirit.
Like I mentioned, in my case, a strict, overly literal and extreme form of Christianity was weaponzied against me in a stake-tied-to-stem like manner, as a way of conditioning me to reject my nature while I was growing up. I'm glad I was able to recover from that state of self-hatred. Now, I'm much more inclined to want to accept myself for who and what I am, and not automatically self-shame like I've been conditioned to, but, it's been a painstaking process to "deprogram" that way of thinking. As you've probably gathered by now, I still occasionally have to fight off the dreadful nostalgic feeling of emotional shame that can sometimes reemerge and try to close-in on me. I fight it by reasoning out (as Objectively as I possibly can) the thoughts and the misleading conclusions that are internally reached (from the part of my mind conditioned to continually cast down my nature, which can still rear it's head when something someone tells me or generally asserts -- even just by opinionated statements I read online -- sets my own self-hater off) by my own mind pointing it's own "shameful" thoughts out.
Yep, I still have to deal with a mind that becomes warped and jumbled over certain things from time to time, but that has gradually improved from how hijacked it was eleven years ago, and even before then.
I very much appreciate you make this correlation and pointing it out. Even when I do, most people seem to rather link my psychological traumas to consensual taboo acts over severe situations I was thrown into that were out of my control and against my will, and dismissively disqualify my self pertaining assertion.
So, you have insight. Congratulations as this is very hard to come by, by schizophrenics. Before I cast any questions or complaints, I was wondering if you are seeking treatment for your condition? And, I don't mean to commit the false cause fallacy here. Your concerns are legitimate and a cause for so e concern.
Wow, it's mind blowing to consider that approach being taken in nurturing these students. I find it's very progressive and organic. I hope this trend eventually reaches other nations and that (with moderate sensibility) adults can come to accept that it's natural for children to be sexually curious, and to not surround that wonderment with shame and perversion.
And, thanks for welcoming me to the club.
So far, we've established that isolated instances (such as a group of douchebags giving me a difficult time for whatever contrasting characteristic they choose to have me represent) and a pattern of occasional instances (like the same guy shouting pejoratives at me whenever I happen to be in a particular public area between the late mornings to early evenings time of the day, who drives the same black truck every time he does so) are plausible -- both becomes occurances like this a common enough in general and, because I've actually recorded these instances on my phone and shown my therapist.
As far as getting to one or more people (whom are technologically proficient enough), to the point where they'd go as far as remotely breaching, hacking and monitoring my cell phone activity to play sadistic psychological gaslight games with me and to simultaneously see if they manage to catch me seeking out illegal and heinous media or meet ups in the process -- all because my presence puts them off and leads them to sneakily look into my online activities -- is plausible (we're not talking aliens or unicorns here, being hacked is something that has been done in reality and can happen to anyone), but is also extremely unlikely.
Still, my mind connects certain dots and formulates theories that I'd feel oppressed if legitimate (and to me, would be on par with being raped -- something horribly traumatic that I've been subjected to against my person and that would be done against my will while the perpetrators get a kick out of it), since in the past, I've shared with others (homeless people, people that wanted to reach out to me) what I have with you guys on the subject of statutory consent vs. consent by choice at any age. Some have even called me a predator (despite me never having "preyed" on children, though as a child, I did seek other children out sexually -- and they also sought me out, but, consent was always key; I don't consider what I did predatory behavior), and threatened to libel me.
I guess I've brought it on myself if this is the case. I should have been more cautious about who I had heart to hearts with.
No, I want to highlight that people can be tracked to the meter by modern day phones. Now, before you act instinctually and want to throw away your phone, I should ask, who's after you? The old man is probably dead or in his home masturbating to CP. But, I'm sorry about your experiences and refer you to unenlightened's post about sharing such information with someone that can help you cope with the experience. Here, we're kind of limited to straw manning you unless you want to write a book about your experience, which I would gladly read. I used to be diagnosed as a schizophrenic, although it has changed to a psychotic disorder.
Anyway, glad the meds are helping, and best regards.
Put bluntly, maybe there is a part of you that misses the guy that took advantage of you, and there might be a part of you that hates him for imposing on you these memories. I don't know, do you?
I have my therapist to turn to when navigating through my traumas and to help me manage my mental condition (along with my psychiatrist) atm.
I know homelessness has me run into more stressers and vulnerable situations, which doesn't bode well for my stability. Being on the streets can bring back past memories, which coalesce with equivalent present instances.
My best coping mechanism is to assess my thoughts, actions and beliefs, then, to do all I can to make sense of it all and trace both the ramifications independent of my choices and those which do result from said choices, which is what I am doing now amongst you guys. It's not all I'm doing, but sharing with peers -- whether virtually or in the real world -- is insightful and constructive.
Understanding my self and further understanding that self in the context of the World I find myself is the best remedy for my affliction. Medicine and counseling are helpful tools (and in my case, essential to turn to concurrently), but this conversation -- the addressing of my personal issues and how it might likely be synthesized and approached in interactivity by a civilization with complications of it's own -- is the most vital element in my "treatment".
I feel the need to do my best to investigate what leads to my malfunctions. I may never figure out a full answer; I'm okay with that fate, as long as I never resign to stop trying to fathom the entirity of these subsequent circumstances.
Thanks guys, this thread has given me significant support.
So, no. The vast majority are not cisgendered. The fact of the matter is that a small minority are misgendered.
How do you classify this experience in your life? Traumatic? Troublesome? Ambiguous? Pleasant? Good? Have you experienced negative experiences by telling others (your mother, for example - or your therapist) about this relationship? Do you think the relationship played a causal role in your mental condition, or was it incidental?
All sorts of things happen to children. Myriad events in our home lives, school, play, civic and religious organizations, etc. are good, indifferent, and bad. We have all had them (not necessarily sexual). Children are adventurous and explore -- sometimes running into problems that are difficult to solve.
All that just to say, your experiences are not isolated and unique. We all have complicated 'histories'. And yes, children seek out sex with other children. Seems pretty normal to me.
I don't see how that is possible. You have some options here:
Turn inward and internalize the issue, leading to some future ailments or exacerbation of current ones.
Look outward and blame society for what happened to you and form an attitude of disregard and hate.
Become indifferent towards both your internal and external struggles and go along jolly well...
I'd pick becoming indifferent along with recognizing the frailty and ineptitude of society for landing you on the streets along with nobody being there when you most needed to consult with someone before making your decision to spend time with the pedophile.
Quoting Wallows
To answer your question directly, yes, I happen to miss him.
Not simply nor mostly because together we were taboo, defiant and undermining a society the respectively eat us up (though I did get a thrill out of that), essentially because I euphamistically feel he was the one who pulled me up out of the sea of negation I was drowning in and made it possible for me to take my first life infusing breath from the the ocean of pain and hatred pulling me under. The before mentioned pain and hatred from the very people that now also hold this perception against me.
Because apparently, it's not at all pertinent to point out their abuse and explain themselves for it, the only problem in all of this is how I decided to cope with it. Ha, I love how they conveniently exclude themselves from the heavily influential conditions that drove me to the alternative they find unacceptable, all the while not being at all troubled by their own abuse, disqualifying their treatment of me which started me on this road to begin with. It's like them saying "I know I cut you, but that's not excuse enough for you to bring disgrace to us all by having desperately sought damage control in bandaging your wound with the first thing you can use to attempt nursing yourself -- the nearby garement of Holyman -- to reduce losing any more of your sinfully staining blood. You've adulterated a thing of sanctity and committed sacrilege."
(Not a passive-aggressive reference to you btw Wallows, just some residual anger at others' 'pick and choose' way of approaching about my past)
If by "there might be part of you that hates him for imposing on you these memories", you're referring to my tendency to look back on my time with him with good regard and how it correlates to my general attitude toward statutes defining rape and my personal interpretion of rape, but, that it's ultimately resulted in harsh backlash from others ,and in turn, acutely aggravated my paranoia. If deep down, I hate him for not being deterred when considering the the ramification of ignomy concerning our sexual relationship that I'd surely have to deal with whenever I'd finally make what happened known to others? Truthfully, no.
Don't get me wrong, it's not lost on me that what I did with an adult as a child was significant. So was sex with my eleven year old cousin when I was five. So was me not discouraging a curious six year old from letting me be a receiving participant of oral sex when I myself was nine.
Clearly, I wasn't without my experience and any virginity I had was outgrown years before.
I wonder, if anyone condemning my sexual interaction with an adult man would see all that led up to that encounter as indication of neglect, trauma, abuse... of not having those around me whom were supposed to give enough of a damn invested enough to have me focus on other things that would actually allow me to appreciate and develop my innate interests, and in turn, myself -- instead of choosing to not nurture me, preferring to contrarily proceed with the opposite of nuture by seeing to it to belittle me, and even encouraging others to join in. The unconscious impulses people are prone to that they don't acknowledge, even to themselves.
I don't understand why people have trouble grasping just how profoundly vicious everything before my sexual interaction with an adult man ultimately was, and that ironically enough, led me to seek out sex as an outlet. It just amusingly baffles me.
My agony wasn't then and is not now rooted in that relationship, though going through with it did seem to further complicate the already messed up set of conditions in my life. My sexual interaction with this man started when I was ten, but the pain and shame that made me receptive to going along with it (born from sheer rejection and social oppression), started earlier than even that, and in every way inevitably set me on the path to seeking an outlet of appreciation and acceptance elsewhere.
My mom was mortified by my mannerisms and by me being effeminate. I had no support, picked apart by strangers and people who knew of me alike while others like my grandparents and absentee father dreadfully interacted with me when it would look bad on their part if they hadn't. Most of the time, I was treated like an embarrassment or a joke. I had the opposite of support. From my parents to classmates, extended family members, church goers -- their commonly held ostracism of me -- and worse, their condescension -- made me lose all esteem and reinforcably compounded an overwhelming sense of worthlessness. Even from the age of seven, I already began meditating on fantasies featuring macabre suicidal ideations.
In a very twisted way, the memories I made with this "predator" allowed me to have something to hold me together while everyone treated me like a garbage can.
Wow, that's a lot to share. I will ponder over it over some time. In the meanwhile, try some meditation. You seem to be fragmented and have chosen to live in the past with these traumatic memories you are sharing. Just an observation; but, you seem to have sided with the ruthless exploitation of your would-be oppressor rather than with a community, the police, or friends. I'm not adept enough to give you advice on how to integrate these memories into your identity.
I hope you can find a home to further ensure some much-needed stability in your life.
Quoting Wallows
... but, these people were my oppressors.
I don't see these people as being inherently sadistic. I grew up during the 90's. It was a different time. Ignorance did not mean then what it does now.
Fatalism aside, do you still feel that way to this day?
Had either one of us grown up in another time (not that distant) our sexual experiences would have been deemed much less significant. But since in the latter half of the 20th century (at least) sex between children and adults has been deemed always and totally bad.
I'm not arguing in favor of adult/child sexual relationships. I'm just acknowledging that it happens, and is probably not always experienced as traumatic by the child. Many of us have a range of non-sexual experiences in our families that we wish we had not had. People can, and do, behave badly toward us. As adults we have to find a way of putting bad experiences away -- either through therapy, maturation, or just plain denial, if one can make that work.
So I wish you well. I hope you find everything you need.
In general, no, I don't feel oppressed by the public like I had back then. I also have the added benefit of not having to be under the guardianship of someone who's not suitable to raise a homosexual child (or any kid not wanting to be made to abide to cult-like Christianity). So, I don't feel oppressed by my "mother" or the church either.
I do feel damaged though, I can't deny that.
Funny enough, the individuals whom have threatened to libel me are nearly all gay. Funnier still, many of them have their own stories about childhood sexual encounters with adults (neighbors, cousins, brothers, uncles, stepdads, even fathers and older friends of fathers). Even though they've snugly told me their accounts with a mischievous gleam in their eyes, they ultimately feel pedophilia is abhorrent and henious now. How convienent, guess there's a method to having your cake and eating it too after all.
So, I'm fatally (it seems) surrounded by hypocrites threatening to blast me because I'm honest about how I feel over my experience.
I don't underestimate the gay community, especially those in it who also happen to be harpies and junkie techies.I've been accused of rape by meth addicts, among other things.
So yes, I still feel fractionally oppressed. These could be empty threats, but they've already made good on dragging my name through the mud and stealing my phone before.
I guess it's unacceptable not to paint myself as a victim for having sex with an adult and feeling victimized by my peers and family instead.
You, THX1138 have made the claim that if someone wanted to they could track you through invading your privacy.
I say there's nobody after you to quell your anxiety and paranoia.
You say that the police, the community you live in, friends, and other people are not your enemies yet play mind tricks with you like gaslighting and such stuff and were your oppressors in regards to the valence of your experiences.
I say that this view is distorted by most likely your diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder and inability to integrate your experiences into a holistic whole.
You say that the pedophile that exploited you was some imagined father figure who showed you (possibly or in your view at least) love and care. Some promises may have been made and secrets to be kept by him towards you to feed this narrative.
I would say that what he did was wrong to be a child molester and predator.
Now, you would disagree with me on grounds of the authenticity and genuineness of the experience. I mean, some people like to drive their cars fast to get a thrill out of it, whilst I kind of grew out of that urge to wake up at 3AM and race on the freeway.
Is the straw man complete?
Now, I should ask, what are your goals in life after all these misfortunes that happened to occur to you, rather, unfortunately?
I didn't mean it in the derogative sense that you'll always feel this way about the whole issue. It's just my sentiment that psychology is fatalistic in how they view motivations stemming from past experiences, instead of future rewards or goals in mind, where adaptation and the survival instinct reigns supreme.
Quoting THX1138
In what sense? Morally, mentally, psychologically, or some other adjective?
Quoting THX1138
Glad your reaction is to laugh at the issue. I say try surrounding yourself with a different company or crowd instead of exposing yourself to future misgivings by other people.
Quoting THX1138
Yeah, so change the crowd to more caring and emphatic people instead of exposing yourself (in some fatalistic manner) to abuse.
I never claimed the police, nor my family, nor friends (which I can count, even having a hand with missing digits, if that were the case) were playing mind tricks, gaslighting me or are my present oppressors.
I doubt law enforcement would have any grounds to monitor me. Monitoring specific individuals long term they suspect of pedophilia is not generally their method of investigation, from my understanding. They would more likely stake out online sites and areas where children run a greater risk of being preyed on, from what I understand about standard local law (though regionalism in the US is a significant factor in policing protocol, that's for sure). Still, doubt they'd get an okay to hack a specified person's phone or laptop, unless it was serious, but then, I'd probably be looked into by DHS, which I feel sure is not the case with me.
My family treats me like a joke, but not like a monster, so, I doubt they'd be out to implicate me of anything other than being a lowlife and a loser -- even when a good portion of them are drunks, addicts, deadbeats, sloths, shysters 'n all.
The friends that I still maintain know my of my past and are very understanding and open-minded. I feel very confident they wouldn't deceptively continue our friendship if they didn't trust me. I don't have those kinds of "friends" at this point.
The degree I feel that I may be hacked, my privacy exploited is turbulent and circumstantial. There are stretches of time where I am more acutely concerned with this suspicion than other times, and yes, I accept this is driven by symptom of my mental condition, but, this may also be the reason the people I've shared sensitive information with may've cruelly played on my state of mind in implanting the threat of exposing their interpretation of what I told them. My mind is a greenhouse to the seed of suspicion they've planted.
{I don't know if this was edited out, or if it was a secondary additional post I made to add to this one that also got caught by a filter and hasn't been recovered along with this post, but, I'd also like to make a reference, which I remember mentioning within this context. If, however, it actually was edited out, is still found to be unacceptable to share and is removed again, then I'd like to reassure I'm not defiantly rementioning this to undermine your previous censorship, I'm only trying to convey all factors at play in my current situation as fully as I can and am unsure if what I stated was censored or simply remains unrecovered. If it's the former, then in that case, forgive me, and remove this mention again.}
---
The people I confided sensitive information to about my past and how I feel about it -- whom have ended up rallying against me in the end -- were mostly other gay men whom range from addicted yet functional drug users with lucrative careers (at least two I've met were computer programmers whom considered themselves hackers, one of them already having criminal charges for cyber crimes) and esteemed reputations, to substance abusers with the singular thought of fueling their possessive dependency. The latter would do anything to others -- begging, threaten to or actually go through with hurting, stealing, prostituting themselves, etc. -- to stave off withdrawal for a while, In my case, one of them resorting to accusing me of raping him (which I did not).
They're an unfortunate clique, centered in networking on the basis of drugs and sex that I regret ever letting myself briefly get caught up in.
---
So, I don't know what to more or less believe as for how far they've already taken it (stealing my phone, shouting my name followed by pedo related pejoratives and throwing bottles at me as they drive by, pretty much sabotaging my visits to gay establishments by spreading rumors and feeding people who don't know me misconstrued information, etc) and how much further they'll go.
I can care less if they've only ensured I can't enjoy a day out at a gay establishment as a result of the thorough torching of reputation they've perpetuated among club and bar regulars. I've never really had a stellar reputation to begin with.
It would, however, bother me if they don't stop there. And they've personally said as much.
Was it just them bluffing? I hope so. I'd like to have some semblance of tranquility in the future.
Message a mod. Probably got caught by the spam filter accidentally.
Sorry if I asserted that if untrue. Like I said straw men are bound to arise over such an intricate topic.
Best regards.
I can see how you can be lead to make that assertion, Wallow.
You haven't offended me at all. Actually, I'm appreciative of your dedicated concern.
Yeah, just to give you some reassurance that my intentions are clear, I am not a psychologist, am on disability myself due to schizophrenia/psychotic disorder, and I'm not trolling you otherwise I would have been banned a long time ago on this site. Though, people with less than sincere intentions can come along (doubtful). So, what I'm saying is I can relate in some small manner or form.
Do you mind me asking what antipsychotic are you taking? I'm like a Hindu cow on Zyprexa (Olanzapine). 20mg once a day. Haha.
Cool, so what are your grand plans in the scheme of things, disregarding everything that has been said thus far, catharsis and all that jazz?
Quoting Bitter Crank
My sentiment exactly. Thank you for your kind hope, Bitter Crank. :)
Quoting Wallows
Yeah, that's what I'm holding out for. It probably comes as no surprise that I have an interest in the fantasy genre (being schizophrenic 'n all), and I especially like allegorical stories with layers of symbolism and profound meaning, like Paradise Lost and Demian: The Story of Emil Sinclair's Youth.
If I can eventually reach a sufficient state of catharsis -- of stability and consistent enough functionality -- I'd love to pour the aspects of life that I'm most familiar with into fiction. Maybe go as far as having a place of my own, having a car, holding down a job I can manage to do without being unreasonably treated.
One step at a time though.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I had a friend stay out here with me for a while. I'm alone now, but it's probably best this way.
Quoting Bitter Crank
I would say my experience felt undamaging (if that's even a word). All the negative input strangling me seemed to dissipate in that instance of connection. It was a dynamic that contradicted all the shame people projected onto me and even helped me fight off wanting to kill myself.
I knew then that it was possible to be loved for who I was. That I wouldn't die never having been special to someone and forever being inadequate, a mistake of nature. At the time, it was something I desperately needed, because up until that point, I felt doomed to be perpetually alone and unwanted, remaining the brunt of the cruel cracks people would make about me.
As far as this correlating to my mental condition, in hindsight it seems apparent to me I was already well underway to developing mental illness (so, incidental for the most part). I actually believe I would have avoided developing certain sexual fetishes but in exchange, would have been sinking further into the abyss of worse disorders or state of mind, being being deprived of affection.
My traumas were not sexual in nature, they were social, mostly tainted with psychological abuse in the form of attacking facets of my identity.
It's true, minors having consensual sex (even as young as I was when I became sexually active) are more common than people (especially parents) want to believe, and somehow seem to forget from their own childhood.
You have been through a lot because of others, so you have developed defense mechanisms, one of them being to question their intentions and what they could possibly do to hurt you. This mechanism is more developed in you than in most other people, you needed it to preserve yourself, so when you ponder possibilities too much other people can perceive it as if you are living in another reality, but that doesn't make you sick or crazy, and that doesn't make you deserving of rejection, on the contrary you deserve to be accepted and supported. You are more compassionate than many of them.
Quoting THX1138
You were labeled schizophrenic because of a delusion that was inserted into you by other people (pastors and church members), that you had a demon in you to get rid of. You integrated this delusion because they were forcing you to take it and you had no outside support to push it away. Then presumably these people weren't in a state of suffering like you were so they didn't consult mental health practitioners and they weren't labeled as schizophrenic, you are the one who got to bear the stigma of this label when they are the ones who forced this delusion into you.
And to this day you wear this label, as if you were somewhat sick or crazy, but I see you as neither, from all your posts what I see is someone who has suffered and who has coped to the best of his abilities with what he was facing. I see you simply as a human being who needs support and love, and I'm glad you can find some through talking with some people here.
Have you ever thought of moving to a different city? It seems where you live you encounter many people who know you and hold negative prejudices against you, it could be helpful to start anew in a place where you are not frequently disturbed by negative influences that make the healing process more difficult.
I've seen this kind of anti-psychiatry sentiments here and on Facebook. I don't know what purpose telling THX1138 that he isn't really schizophrenic serves here. The doublethink is a cause of distress and anxiety for any particular person.
Quoting leo
Leo, your ability to convey an unprejudiced third-party perspective (so to speak) to my circumstance is a cool drink of spring water in a mirage riddled arid desert. Your compassion in the form of an adroit and Objective approach means a lot to me. I hope I get to know more of you on PF (I'm guessing this might be the commonly used abbreviation of 'The Philosophy Forum'), because I feel an affinity to you, like we may be kindred spirits.
Most people would write off behaving erratically all because I'm schizophrenic. They forget, I'm also Human, and that any bona fide Human being would come apart at the seams given the circumstances, regardless of mental condition, gender ("She's hysterical!"), age ("They're just throwing childish tantrums"), level of intelligence ("Pay him no mind, he's the village idiot"), etc.
A lot of people have a tendency to complacently downplay others' injustices, especially when they can box them in some distant-from-me categorization. This is dangerous... quite dangerous. I believe there should be a non-dissmissve approach and methodology to considering an issue anyone presents. And, even when one comes to their own personal conclusion based on their criteria of credibility, they should at all times compose themselves with decency and not be so arrogant as to consider the opinion they've reach as absolute, irrefutable nor universal.
In my experience, people with this attitude oftentimes seem to believe that if you don't see how their process of determination is foolproof and how their deduction is unquestionably correct, that failing to agree must mean you're not intelligent enough to realize they've cleverly figured out the only possible answer to a far reaching issue with many implications; like it's ever as straightforward as giving a two dimensional explanation to a three dimensional problem -- seemingly facilitated by broad generalizations and strong, dismissive assumptions.
I may be Schizophrenic, but that doesn't make me as inept in accurately perceiving and confirming what goes on around me, not as much as people casually believe.
This is also why I am a firm believer of maintaining some self-doubt when "God-moding" through issues one can't Humanly concieve all the attributable elements factored in, nor thoroughly ever really know the detailed conditional nature of every elemental puzzle piece.
To jump to the verdict that someone must then be wrong in a closed-ended way is just as (in)accurate. How could you possibly definitively know that they are "wrong"? How is felt emotional abuse and ambivalence something that is handled with a "right" or "wrong" formulation? What anyone feels is subjective. Like art, emotions do not qualify as something that can be classified to being wrong nor incorrect in and of itself.
But again, if the factual occurances experienced resulting in someone's subjective perception bringing forth felt distress and instability are what is deemed invalid, than prove why it's invalid.
If insisting that there's no other possible explanation, one must back their thesis with factual, objective evidence.
Otherwise, it's at best skepticism reinforced by statistical probability. There's a chance such a calculation may be correct -- it may even be likely -- but, there's insufficient proof to conclusively accept that said notion is indeed fact, or to be the case as the only alternative default when involving someone who's schizophrenic.
Schizophrenia is often very specific and systematic in what aspects of perception it tinges -- and even in those instances, schizophrenia can merely be augmenting something that is exaggeratingly -- but not necessarily misleadingly -- being perceived. People know this, and a fractional sadistic few actually do go about covertly exploiting this Achilles' heel. It works because of the cruel paradox that it's attributing schizophrenia that's to blame for it, when in truth, it's those to blame that attribute it to schizophrenia. This isn't always the case, but is a common enough phenomenon that is still astonishingly widely doubted, even with all sorts of pervasive cases of general abuse being cited commonly enough.
Legitimate abuse isn't discriminatory. People whom have identifiable points of weakness that scumbags (parents, coworkers, classmates, siblings, etc.) pick up on are targets of abuse throughout. Why would a schizophrenic be passed up? -- because bullies are somehow exceptionally considerate when it comes to schizos? Anyone who no-joke feels this way is possibly tremendously fortunate to not only not personally experience abuse but also not have enough exposure to others' being mistreated in underestimating abusers' predation.
Worse than the few abusers are the many enablers, which really do seem to apply to being the majority of the population.
Quoting Wallows
The gist I took from Leo's comment is that not everything I experience is automatically made invalid all because hey, I'm Schizophrenic. That's bogus. Daunting conditions are duanting conditions, and are not extenuated by nor credited to degree of sanity. Sanity (or lack there of) does not have some surreal effect on non-internal happenings that individuals -- whom by coincidence are schizophrenic -- actually physically go through in reality.
If someone throws sand at both a sane person and a schizophrenic, they'll both end up covered in and perhaps also scraped by sand alike -- and if who threw the sand is a stranger to them and yells "you deserved that!", indicating bad intention, it would make sense to feel mutually offended. The difference may be that it might be easier for the non-schizophrenic to emotionally recover from the incident -- but the incident itself is not downplayed or questioned -- especially when there are scrapes that evidence and mark the trauma of the experience -- and it's understandable for both to feel mentally troubled by physical assault.
Plus, I don't feel like I need a record of every incident that happens to me out in the real world to prove legitimacy or accuracy just because of my condition. I percive sight, hear sound, can feel touch just like any other person. Being Schizophrenic doesn't make me that unreliable.
In the respect that the causes of my significant traumas were not Schizophrenic holograms, very much variables in reality imposed on me out of my control and against my will, I affirm Leo's notion.
Schizophrenia isn't my label. I don't consider myself to be sick, nor crazy. Yes, I have suffered, and am coping to the best of my abilities with what I'm facing, which are very much products of reality, but as a side-effect made furthermore unbearable by my condition -- a condition I have, not am. Yes, what I ultimately am is a Human being -- the very designation that happens to be overlooked while being considered by others.
What I believe Leo is underscoring is that Schizophrenia has as much to do with my from-the-outside-in experience mistreatment as having brown hair being the defining factor in seeing light. No one is brown hair, having brown hair doesn't cause nor negate being able to see light. I am not Schizophrenia, having (not being) Schizophrenia doesn't cause nor negate being able to experience mistreatment. Both light and mistreaters are independent of brown hair and Schizophrenia. Light does make it possible to see brown hair. Mistreatment does make it possible to see Schizophrenia. But otherwise, I'm not really Schizophrenia, nor am I brown hair. My mistreatment isn't really Schizophrenia, it's reality, the same objective reality anyone of any degree of sanity is able to percive in practically the exact same way (and in turn, feel about in their subjective way).
No, that would be a hasty overgeneralization and I never meant to imply that all you experience is automatically invalid, which is as you say "bogus".
Quoting THX1138
Hah, but, you could never become a police officer or soldier in the military. Just keeping it real here.
Quoting THX1138
True, but it ain't no walk in the park either. Those demons in the forest down by the mountain are quite terrifying and real too.
And I couldn't be more relived to be comforted by that fact. Policing others and taking lethal commands have never been aspirations I've gravitated toward, really.
Demonic representations have always been allegorically thought up to symbolize the real evil that plagues Humanity -- their own negative thoughts and dark impulses. That's definitely not unique to Schizophrenia, not by a long shot.
I respect your attitude or stance towards the issue. But, discounting or downplaying the fact that you are or aren't schizophrenic, per leo's post is not sound advice.
But, let's assume that you're having a moment of clarity here on this forum, and are in fact not schizophrenic, then what's the point to going to therapy or taking the meds? See here's the doublethink manifest.
If memory serves me right, then I was under the impression that delusions of reference, delusions of persecution, and hearing (often) demonic voices are all typical for schizophrenics. But, this really isn't the appropriate place to talk about these issues despite you, perhaps, wanting to.
WaQuoting Wallows
Wallow, I'm glad you've taken an interest in my thread. You may hold the typical connotative notions between Schizophrenia and Law Enforcement/positions requiring looking out for civilians by "danger scoping" that I'm eager to reasonably brain-pick.
Plus, I have insight that you're probably uber grateful that you were re-diagnosed, for some specific reason, seemingly underlying a desired sense of competence at no longer being considered schizophrenic.
Wallow, do you see Schizophrenics as a class of individuals whom are oppositional to "heroic" types (police, military personnel, firefighters, your general look-out-for-the-good-people-of-our-community position types)?
I believe there's much shame and dishonor in choosing to be a corrupt cop -- which can be found throughout this and outside nations. I don't feel the same way or see how it's at all side-by-side comparable when someone has the choiceless misfortune to be afflicted with a condition like Schizophrenia, however.
I guess it all comes down to being a matter of choice of action, eh?
I'm acutely aware of the fact that schizophrenics are non-violent people. But, I've been to group therapies in my local behavioral health clinic, and most clinicians are aware of the fact that the majority of homeless people have mental health issues. So, not to pigeonhole you here, but, the issue is quite complex and a positive affirmation on the interwebs about a diagnosis of one's mental health is quite dangerous and problematic.
Quoting THX1138
Well, I still take the same meds a schizophrenic or bipolar patient does as an insurance policy. See, derealization through confirmation bias is just too easy a lure for many people suffering from mental health issues on the internet. I'm just trying to point that out to you.
Quoting THX1138
As far as I'm aware most schizophrenics would jump at the idea of becoming a hero and recognition from society that they are worth more than they think they are worth in societies eyes.
First of all, just because someone is prone to delusions -- but has enough self-awareness to doubt their paranoia and suspicions -- doesn't necessarily mean they can't accurately infer legitimate torment, not by demons, by what demons are inspirational representations of, the dark side of the Human condition.
In my case, I did not audibly hear demons, and I've never hallucinated. The demonic theme in my delusions was a result of religious suggestion.
It could've been the dragon Grendel of Pagan lore if my Druid mother decided to response what was lying around dogmatically at the time and I would've gone dungeon dragons.
Sigh, and... there it is.
Not everyone wants to be a hero in order to at least not be seen in either extreme -- heroically nor antagonistically. Both ultimatums sound exhausting to someone who just wants to walk down the street, buy some bread and grapes, stroll via the scenic route home, and enjoy a snack while proceeding to continue working on an oil painting with as much care of the rest of the world as any dime-a-dozen non-hero, nay terrorizer. Saying that you believe the majority of Schizophrenics wish resorting to heroism to achieve some status change in society's eyes misses the point. Society needs to stop looking at Schizophrenics being substantially Schizophrenic. Stop doing that. Also, there are individuals whom are more likely to ruin society than us. Try, oh, I dunno, repeat offenders, people whom hurt and rape people and get away by intimidating their victims, neglectful "parents", look into kids that are acting out (hint, hint, it's an indicator of abuse), etc. Stop defaulting to pouring all the societal evils in the Schizophrenic beaker, we have enough to sort through.
I'm not sure if you're being honest here. I'm going to (probably unsuccessfully) disentangle some things here. You stated that you found some sense of satisfaction in the relationship with the older man as some sort of act of defiance from society. Am I right here or is this a straw man?
Wallow, I do not want to be these people's hero. If you are insinuating I somehow want to be these don't-know-better (nor find it in themselves to try contemplating differently) people's enemy, that's definitely not the case. When it comes to most of society, I don't really want to invest in making a difference -- "good" or "bad". I would like to be in the company of like minded peers whom I can relate to. Thankfully, I'm already off to a good start.
I guess the question is, what percentage of society have the mindset of thinking of the people as a whole in terms of "society"? Why should I then have to? Or be chided for wanting to be as unconcerned about "society" at large, not unlike the vast majority often are? Because I'm schizophrenic, and somehow owe a debt to "society"? lol
Society is what it is. It has evolved and will continue to regardless of my carbon footprint. My eff-you! to society was just like their poor-you's toward me -- not about anyone but themselves/myself. How can I be intent on trying to bend over backward for a society that just wants to be itself, even if I don't have a great opinion of the present societal self.
If anyone understands craving that serenity, it's this guy here. How arrogant and egocentric it would be to feel society owes me or vice versa, that one of us had it right and the other needs to pay penance -- egh. I don't want to be a hero as much as I don't want to find myself in some twilight zone epic.
Then I was mistaken. I think I've run out of steam for the day, so I'll call it a night. Hope to see you posting more threads about your relationship with society or yourself.
Best regards.
My relationship to society in the context of our respective selves.
And sure, I'll be around.
Night Wallow. :yawn:
I know you've left, but I back tracked and found I had to address your input here.
I doubt that was Leo's intent. And btw, there are alternatives to managing delusional thinking that do not involve drugs (which I have a feeling you'd very much oppose, seeing how excited you've become in some read into outcome of me going off my meds and... what? -- lol -- It'll probably seem alarming that despite being diagnosed with Schizophrenia by the age of nineteen, I'm now thirty and have only begun taking psychotropic drugs since this past March :scream: :snicker: )
... I really wish people were as prone to pushing medication on the recklessly violent as they are people struggling with delusionional thinking whom have enough self control not to break or damage the people in their proximity. That should be looked into.
Also, it comes off as patronizing when you blurt things out like "let's assume that you're having a moment of clarity here on this forum", like admitting I have Schizophrenia now means I am statically nebulous with only sporadic flickers of lucidity. That's inaccurate man.
Honestly, the point of me going on this regiment of meds and therapy is to do some damage control. I got mixed up with a nefarious bunch some months ago whom proceeded to play on the very themes of paranoia I confided to share with them. Before divulging my personal themes of paranoia to some drug focused heavy users (not the non-corrupt doctor prescribed, over-the-counter type of drug users) of the intimate details over what I was psychologically haunted by, I effectively kept my psychotic PH at a stable 7. But, then these guys started making threats and overtly calling me out (on one part accurate, eight parts made-up info). Soon enough, they perpetuated very speculative and accusatory musings focused on my paranoia to be taken as fact.
I broke down. I tried committing suicide (I won't mention the method, but it did not involve using a gun, blade -- not any weapon -- nor drugs), ending up being involuntary admitted to a psychward. I was released a week later, handed meds, and given a referral appointment to both a psychiatrist and therapist.
While I was in there, I missed paying for my efficiency and have been homeless since.
That's my deal. But I have hope to not be homeless for too long. Oddly enough, being out here has releasesed me of some misconceived notions I held before.
My experience may differ from yours Wallow, in that most of the fellow homeless people I encounter aren't mentally ill at all. A lot of these people have their own personal reasons for in their way embracing homelessness, actually. Like the basis of mental illness, the causes behind homelessness are not cut and dry, or have common singular, all-encompassing characteristics (like all feeling somehow rejected by society, for instance). It's implicitly more complex than that.
Back to play the therapist again. Maybe I should start psychologizing myself more. Haha.
Anyway, I want to highlight the fact that you receive benefits from society in terms of disability payments of some 600-700 USD a month depending on where you live. You stated that you were hospitalized due to an unsuccessful attempt at suicide fairly recently. So, society ain't all that bad. People, on the other hand, can be. So, I suppose what I'm trying to do is prod on your super-ego and encourage you to better yourself rather than get stuck in these endless rationalizations that can be psychology along with sticking with the wrong crowd, which can be exacerbated by homelessness. You've pretty much outlined your life struggles on these forums, and have found a semblance of care or empathy from others. I guess, I've fulfilled my role as forum therapist and hope you find your way in life. I'll shut up for now, then.
No, society isn't all one way or the other. I feel very confident that as the societies within nations concerned with inclusion and comprehension progress and evolve, situations like mine will take a different course for some fortunate members of the whole.
None of us are all around enlightened in all sectors that pertain to functioning well as a network. I may have insight on a particular form of dark ways parents and institutions treat homosexuality as a problem -- to the point of them generalizing it with the onset of coincidental illness -- and erroneously trying to go about in nullifying it, with ineffective tactics of "conversion", hoping that bestowing, condoning and facilitating mortification would all come together to eradicate such a nature, alright.
I can't really say I believe that experience makes me exceptionally empathic enough to safeguard me from still forming ignorant notions of my own though. It does humble me to be much more open to edification, and that I feel grateful for. I still catch myself missing the mark when I put myself on the spot for something a casually remark inconsiderately or an opinion I may find hypocritical of me -- of all people -- to arrive at. But this resulting reflex to look twice, then, look twice again as I'm crossing other complications not pertinent to me when I look from the outside in is to me possibly the best attribute of my person.
If someone is open to edification, then they aren't beyond hope of being doomed to perpetual ignorance.
As far as my aid, yes, my means are redirected from society. My parents, my grandparents, and extended family (as much as I don't care for them on a personal level) have all contributed and continue to contribute to that source of distribution. In a way, when it comes to me, they are quite literally paying their dues when I zoom out to look at the bigger picture (though this isn't the entirity of how ultimately look at it in hindsight, but, do in part feel this way). But, in that respect, I was a match for a kidney transplant my cousin needed four years ago and donated one of mine to her, so, I do feel I've paid the benefit of having a healthy set of kidneys forward to someone whose contribution in turn benefited me. It works both ways with no singular "penance" -- which, to me, is kind of a harsh, close-ended word to denote to this perspective. I more see it as the settling of turbulence in rebalancing... organic equilibrium.
It's just that sometimes there are under-challenged injustices that get in the way of that cyclical undulation. We can all only do our best to understand and support one another.
I was drawn to this thread partly because of the moniker of the original poster (amazing movie - or at least, it was before George Lucas completely lost the plot and... well, I guess that's off-topic). But also because it seemed like a fairly on-topic place to post one of my main concerns about joining.
Specifically, I am wondering about this site's privacy policy. I was unable to find one. I'm also wondering if PlushForums gets my data as a result of me posting here.
What do you suppose makes you so interesting that people would be tracking you?
Quoting THX1138
How would anyone do that? Give a specific example of the info that would have been gained, how it would be "weaponized," and to what end.
Quoting Terrapin Station
I question that myself.
Candidly judging myself in general, I'm dull in terms of arousing anyone's interest (among other contexts).
I reside in a tent a quarter of a mile deep off a heavily wooded, scantily developed on single to and fro lane road (other than about four residential neighborhoods, a fire station, and recreational park spread out throughout the area I reside off of). I'm 31, homely, kinda wild haired, wild eyed, scruffy looking, overweight, and if I haven't had a chance to fill up my water jugs -- and give myself a nice shock-cold shower and/or slap on some deodorant on a given day, give off an odor that's indicative of sweat and armpit (as unpleasant as the connotation is to most -- probabIy all -- whom are still reading on through the posts of this thread).
I consider it's very unlikely that if I actually am being kept tabs on, that being in any way interesting to my probers is the incentive which suffices furthered curiosity sparked by anything personally interesting about me to anyone with at least average tastes.
Still, no one has to be particularly interesting to be a "person of interest."
Now, I know this is the juncture in which most will think to themselves and relate to others the predictable response of "Ahh... this is telling of the influence his mental illness has on his approach to reasoning out his suspicion." Hey, it may be nothing more than that. If it actually is, I wish it seemed that way to me.
Now, why would I be a "person of interest", you may wonder. That's still one I'm trying to get a more complete idea of, but am for the most part convinced is a significant, if not the significant factor (not if I am a "person of interest", more that I most likely am. I'm just not sure to whom exactly, but do believe it's one and/or more of the group's of people I suspect).
First of all, I think it's quite accurate to consider that male loners in their mid twenties and up, whom display antisocial traits, whom don't agree with a significant amount of widely accepted and reinforced notions of morality (along with a few notions of legality, in my case), being mentally ill, are homeless and out and about have a high probability of being individuals seen as cause of alarm when dwelling in a local area. Even before I myself became this way, as a child I noticed other individuals fitting this criteria always seemed to be looked at contemptiously with distrust, treated with brewing hostility and regarded as a cautionary tale of shame. I'm no exception.
My unideal ideals can be considered radical, but are more so seemingly seen as henious.
What are the blasphemous notions I maintain?
My deviation regarding age of consent is already presented in this thread. My feelings on right to privacy (or at least if someone is going to be subject to having their personal life rummaged through, that the investigation be conducted with the consideration of the rights the suspect -- not convict, suspect -- being looked into.)
I have slipped up and committed acts that did actually infringe on the rights of others in the past. These were breif and momentary in each case, but my tendency to eventually commit another violation of someone's personal rights seems periodically repetitive. Most recently, I moved back from another State to Florida on April of 2018. From then 'til now, I have inadvertently caused bad blood between me and a number of others. I think the most egregious is another homeless guy that I met up with whom felt sexually assaulted by me after we both consensually began to sexually interact. I also had my phone stolen by another homeless gay guy who sold off my phone. I was mortified by the thought of all I had on the SD card on that phone being used against me. I didn't have anything illegal on it (like kid porn or anything like that) though, I did have all sorts of images I downloaded off of Google -- pornographic, artistic and candid takes of all sorts of people posting their images online for both story writing purposes and yes, the occasional fap-to-pics-in-the-newspaper material for the purpose of appeasing my own perversion of material that is otherwise benign and not in and of itself adult content).
At the moment, I struggle with a lot of notions and inclinations all jumbled up internally in my mind.
Now, if you were an authority figure of law enforcement, wouldn't that unsettle you enough to keep an eye out on me? Despite me not intentionally looking to harm anyone, since others account for how I can allow my urges to overtake me under certain conditions, in select situations?
I believe they would and to some level, are.
A computer program can easily log my online activity without someone having to have their eyes constantly glued to a screen, transcribing every little thing I do, search and type. It really doesn't take much effort these days, just enough concern.
You may not be as creatively sadistic as some of the individuals whom do this to me. Either that, or this is a loaded question.
It's not all that difficult or unfeasible really. Let's say for a hypothetical instance that I decided to take my phone out or open up my laptop and reached out to have a heart to heart with my high school pal on Facebook or a buddy on Kick. Perhaps I saw an ASPCA Sarah McLachlan commercial over animal abuse and it has me revisiting buried feelings of remorse and self-deprecation ambivalently mixed with emotions of anger and rejection that incited me to commit such horrible acts in the first place.
So, I divulge how I would sporadically hit an unaffectionate adult cat that was given to me when I was thirteen with the handle end of a broom stick for a week and a half and how I'd do this because I associated and magnified the cat's rejection with how everyone else in my life seemed to reject (I subjectively felt) at the point in my childhood. I admit how terribly sorry I feel for having done so but that on the same token, I understand how I ultimately arrived at such a bleak, monstrous moment back then.
The next day, I'll be out and about and stop by a Wal-Mart to buy something to eat and for other miscellaneous purchases. I'm going through the isles when all of a sudden a woman pops out as I'm making a turn, wearing a cat themed hoodie and waving around a broomstick. She contrively blurted out "Ooops.. " and walks away, as she's cackling and strolling off with her friend or husband.
If it was one singular incident like this, I'd chuck it up to just coincidence. But, too many "coincidences" like this example have occurred to me too many times now. At the risk of coming off like having textbook paranoia, this all seems to indicate a pattern.
I honestly don't find it difficult to believe that there are certain people that are perfectly okay with putting me through this as a "karmic penance" of some sort.
So, even taking that at face value, what is "weapony" about it?
Let's see, someone would have to look into my private online conversations, identify the things discussed of the most sensitive nature to me, devise a way to passive-aggressively and covertly convey to me that what I shared with a friend in what is supposed to be a private conversation has now been collected, shared with who knows who else and ultimately judged by others whom my past doesn't at all concern (unlike you and others, no anonymity nor constructive approach to my wrongdoing) to then proceed with psychologically gaslighting me with consternation, veiled threats and taunts.
That to me is a weaponization of intimate, private information I've shared with only one other individual. The only way this could all go down without my private information being intercepted is if my friend himself is in on it and gives out entrusted info, but he lives all the way out in Oregan and I in the South-East. There would have to be some organized group bullshit going on to do all of this. My friend is like me, not many friends, is open-minded, is very considerate in reasoning past transgressions out and doesn't take a "lynchmob in the 2010's of cyber justice" appproach to my screwups.
Even in the plausible case that my friend is the one going over my head and publically exposing what I share with him (which I greatly doubt is what's happening), what my friend would be doing would also be a breach of privacy, but under much more acceptable conditions over some entitled vigilante self-deemed cyber hero illegally intercepting my sensitive discussions and using it to override my rights while disqualifying any efforts of intimate introspection and healing with public mockery and psychological mind games.
You don't see how this is psychological weaponization of private information?
If it's my friend (again, I have the utmost doubt it is, since even memos I've written to myself on my phone have been tauntingly conveyed back to me in some psychologically mind fkd way), then, shame on me, we all risk confiding personal details with the wrong person and possibly have it blow up in our face if they decide to betray our trust. I've deduced that this is very unlikely the case though, since like I mentioned, it's still happened to me outside this context. A friend blasting my personal details to others would still be wrong, but would be something I would also have to take my share of culpability for and can remedy by cutting communicating with them.
Cyber probing by some intrusive moral (and punishment driven) Robinhood complex a**holes however is something that I definitely don't have much control over and is definitely ethically messed up.
I have a right to use technology and have my privacy treated with as much sacredness as most others' not posting this stuff in public or when doing so, sharing it with general details and with anonymity. Otherwise disregarding that and in an underhanded way leaving the target unable to really defend against what's being done to them is very much a weaponization.
Not really, because I don't really buy the idea of "psychological weapons," especially with respect to people who are more or less strangers. If someone is judging, taunting, etc. me, I don't see it as my problem. It's similar to why I'm not offendable. I might want someone to not bother me because they're annoying or whatever, but I'll simply take whatever measures I need to in order to get them to stop interacting with me.
Well, I guess we don't see eye to eye on this, then. Even if someone were to peer into my virtual activity and not periodically convey they have in whatever direct or indirect format they'd want to do that in, I'd still be offended. I'd equate it to a passerby casually sticking their hand down my pants and copping a feel of my genitals or sliding it over my butt cheeks to feel them out. Even if I'm unconscious when this is done, it's rapey... it's just wrong.
Can't really say I care if big corps do this -- as they already do to the vast majority of us. Their goal is to sell me on things based on my observed interests. It's not about penance, targeting nor exposure.
When a less impersonal party is looking into and targeting me specifically with the intentional purpose of psychologically messing with me, that's altogether different in purpose and effect.
And yeah, annoyance is the most strongly felt emotion their invasion overall brings out in me now. At first, I felt more alarmed, dissected, and resentful. I felt especially angry that while there are others out here with confirmed charges of being assaulters (often remorseless and ready to deny owning up to the nature and regularity of the long list of messed up crap they do to others), ironically enough little ol' insignificant, uninteresting me ends up pulling the short end of the target practice stick and disproportionately have to be subjected to this shitshow while wife beaters are greeted with smiles and given 31st, 32nd chances in life amongst public society all because aside from having been monsters to their victims, they have an endearing personality and attractive visage.
The sense of morality and the priority people collectively (and seemingly subconciously) have toward aggravators that they see fit to treat with the least tolerance and forgiveness seems miscorrelated and incongruous to me.
So I'm dull as hell. So I give people the heebie jeebies unintentionally by the very sight of me. So what? You're telling me that having a remarkably failed personality warrents not only rejection but oppression while some guiltless monster strolls along passed me and is seemingly exonerated for their offenses all because they've managed to charm the jury? Is this really the warped twilight zone world I exist in?
Am I the only one who sees how this is harassment and shouldn't be downplayed, and that in fact there are others that it really is dangerous to not scrutinize for the pattern of their behavior and the much more likely potential of threat they pose?
It seems you take the meaning of the word "weapon" very literally. I don't know if like me, you are an American citizen. If you are, I can't say I'm all that surprised by your stance.
Guns, knives, grenades... these tools are merely extensions. Humans are the true weapons when they are used.
As far as you hypothetically only being able to feel "annoyed" and being non-offendable, I envy the fair-weathered alloted conditions that at worst still have you consistently maintaining these reactions.
In my case, it's like I'm caught in a swarm of houseflies I can never outrun. Constant buzzing... constant non-lethal, debilitating noise.
Count your blessings.
I realize I never replied to you, sorry about that.
I agree that we have similar points of view, this is probably due to the fact that I have been through a lot as well because of others, a lot of injustice and suffering, and I too refuse to accept being treated that way, even though back when i was a kid I didn't really know how to defend myself psychologically. Those who haven't been through that wouldn't really understand.
If you don't consider yourself as sick, or crazy, and don't see the label "schizophrenic" as defining you then that's good, that diagnosis doesn't mean in any way that you are less worthy as a human being.
If you feel that the meds you are prescribed and your therapist help you, then me questioning your diagnosis of schizophrenia wasn't implying in any way that you should stop doing what helps you. And if you don't feel weighed down at all by the label of schizophrenia I don't really need to expand on why I think that the basis for making a diagnosis of schizophrenia is shaky from a philosophical standpoint.
But basically, feeling bad and having beliefs that contradict those of the psychiatrist are enough to be diagnosed as schizophrenic, and in your case the belief that you ought to get rid of the demon inhabiting your body (your sexual orientations) seems long gone. Then being homeless doesn't help one feel safe, and based on what you have experienced in the past it is not surprising that you constantly question the intentions of others. And on this point, if the therapist and the meds help you feel more relaxed and at peace then that's all that matters, the diagnosis of schizophrenia seems unnecessary. But again, if that label doesn't weigh you down then that doesn't matter anyway.
I don't mean to come off as rude, condescending or patronizing; but, Leo's advice is misguided despite its appeal in your theorizing about past events. This doesn't only happen here. It's all over the internet also. Just that here it is disguised in the form of rational thought given the premise that we're all rational, justified by being here on a philosophy forum.
The typical response you would get just about anywhere else on the internet, where rational thought is encouraged would be something of the sort to seek professional advice. We don't really do that enough around here (which kind of makes this place special), and given that you have mentioned a fairly recent attempt on your own life I feel as though that advice is the best one can offer.
Best regards.
You seem to believe that professionals possess holy knowledge that only them can impart, and us plebeians cannot possibly analyze their thought processes in what leads them to make such or such diagnosis. I wouldn't call that stance rational.
Here are the criteria used by psychiatrists to make a diagnosis of schizophrenia: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519704/table/ch3.t22/
To sum it up, at least one of the following symptoms: delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech.
And at least one of the following symptoms: grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior, negative symptoms (i.e. diminished emotional expression or avolition)
THX1138 doesn't have disorganized speech and hasn't mentioned having hallucinations. He thinks it is possible he might be targeted by some people, but he doesn't believe it fiercely against all evidence, he has some reason to think so, so that doesn't count as a delusion. From what he has told through this thread, there is currently no basis to diagnose him as schizophrenic, as he doesn't fit the criteria.
He did have a belief over 10 years ago that was forced into him by pastors and church members, which could count as a delusion, but he hasn't held it for a long time.
Your insistance that a diagnosis made by a professional is always right, and that as such we should dismiss everything that THX1138 says that goes against this diagnosis, is irrational, patronizing and stigmatizing. After all, why do you believe he received such a diagnosis? It may be the paranoia talking!
Lastly, THX1138 has mentioned that he consults a psychiatrist and a therapist already, which helps him feel supported, so your suggestion to seek professional advice shows how little attention you give to what he has to say, besides the fact he was given in your view a holy diagnosis that renders everything else irrelevant.
Besides, he has explicitly said that he doesn't feel stigmatized by the label of schizophrenic, so my characterization of his diagnosis has little relevance, but he does feel stigmatized by people who dismiss what he says as paranoia.
He is a human being, stop seeing him as just a diagnosis.
I do not insist that I know what's best for him, I'm just trying to genuinely support someone who is looking for support. Sometimes people simply need a listening ear from people who understand them, rather than be told that they are sick and need to consult a professional, which indeed is the sort of response he would usually get on the internet but not the one he needs.
Well, I don't think projecting your own misgivings with the psychiatric diagnosis of schizophrenia, which you consider as stigmatizing is really helpful here. That's about it from my end.
Many people see psychiatric labels as stigmatizing, if he doesn't, great. However what I said about it could be helpful to him, in case he finds himself surrounded by people who won't listen to him and won't consider what he says seriously because he has been assigned that label, or who will treat him badly and pretend that they didn't, that it's the paranoia talking.
When you're in an environment where people don't have your best interest at heart, it is dangerous to tell you that if you're treated badly it's all in your head.
I think he needs most of all to feel in control of his life, and constantly telling him that he is paranoid and attempting to dismiss what I say to him as misguided while he has felt supported and understood by me, is what I find most unhelpful.
Support away!
I will. Despite the fact you were diagnosed as schizophrenic, he seems to find more common ground with me, that should tell you something.
Ooo, do go on!
If your primary concern toward me is authentically in regard of my mental wellbeing, Wallows, I appreciate your effort, even if I don't for the most part agree with how you perceive it and in turn, find is the most appropriate solution. It more seems to me that like the vast majority of individuals whom become aware of my condition coupled with my personal point of view, you are concerned more toward the safety of others moreso than my search for a spiritual enlightenment.
Well, just coming out clean. I lived in denial of my diagnosis for some 10 years. Taking my antipsychotic was a chore. But, finally coming to accept my diagnosis was a relief in many ways. Anyway, the internet is too full of armchair psychologists and psychiatrists. It's pretty hard to come to terms with such a profoundly (flawed) view of oneself, and when I see people asserting such nonsense that can't be assessed in a 10-minute dialogue legitimately, is when I cringe.
Quoting leo
Truthfully, I believe the reality of my situation is a bit of both. It's almost like the "Which came first, the egg, or, the chicken?" paradox. I have been handed over to psychiatrists since I was in kindergarten because I was very energetic, rambunctious and differed from my other classmates in a school setting. My single parent, only child mom took advantage of the handout, ran with it and milked it for all it's worth (SSI, food stamps, government housing, etc.) I've been diagnosed as one thing or the other ever since, treated differently by classmates, teachers and family.
Was I destined to be Schizophrenic, or was I conditioned to be? Maybe both? Maybe mental illness was a genetic predisposition but could have be reduced in exacerbation by better nurturing and a more constructive approach?
I'm "a soon to be 31 year old homeless man living in the woods "whining" about why it's so difficult for me to be in a social setting boo-hoo-hoo, who just wants to be felt sorry for."
... that's it? That's all I am? It's really that simple and so confidently factorable?
I don't accept that. I'm not sorry to say that seems like a cop out for my mom, my educators and family. A nice convincent pink slip of an allowance. Sorry, but I do feel cheated, and now I don't know what to make of anything.
Who knew it could be so damn difficult to be loved and supported, instead of tolerated (at best), and constantly written off. It's whatever man, as usual, I'm of course supposed to be the source for cause of being treated like a dread and liability.
That doesn't seem right to me, no matter how I think it over.
Quoting Wallows
I'm not in denial of being schizophrenic, moreover, mentally ill. But, you've gotta be aware that being considered mentally ill (to whatever degree, even when accurate to an extent) can leave certain individuals open to others' excuses of prejudice and accusations. It's no life to go on always constantly being the individual others collectively turn into a carnie, including cops.
I struggle with henious thoughts. It seems they believe it's just a matter of time. No unringing the bell, no way to have them dismiss their "spidey-sense" toward me and leave open any condition in which to sensibly be able to re-acclimate in the open world anywhere I go. Leave the country? I know Spanish, maybe I should just get out of here. Somewhere people are too busy with their own issues and economy to go about behaving like smug upper-handed douchebags whom sadistically enjoy the luxury of contemplating my pathetic existence while they're spieling over Mai Tais.
I'm thoroughly fed up. People act like I'm on America's Most Wanted. Honestly, I think it might as well be illegal to be both dull and troubled in this masters of the universe setting.
The problem doesn't lie with what happens to you, but what you do with it.
And in your own words:
Quoting THX1138
Take a breather. Your own overassessments are what's going to cause you to snap, not some mook who thinks lesser of you.
The responsibility for the rescue of the drowning, is before all else - the drowning's.
Venting is my breather. I just want to get out of here. Thankfully, I've maintained enough self control not to be a criminal (for all that's worth). I can leave, probably will even after having much time to consider it. It'll take me at least two years to get ready anyway. If I still feel the same way by then, that's all the oxygen rich meditation I'll need to know I'm making a much considered decision.
Don't feed the fire and it will pass faster.
Don't just vent your problems, go do something that actually makes you happy.
Quoting Shamshir
I wish that were true. I'm just talking on a forum concerning philosophy. Outside of this environment, I feed no fires. I hardly ever leave my little wooded site, other than to get food. I stay out of others' way. I feel so drained though. I'll get by, I always manage to.
I have no business deeming the ways of society, I guess. I'm too compromised. All I want is tranquility. Let people procreate mindlessly and bring children into the world some'll ultimately end up neglecting and/or abusing. Someone like me is just the resin left over from that poverty and ill equipped parentage.
So it seems I'm a pedophile now. I've also been implicated as a rapist (though I did force falacio on an ex-boyfriend seven and a half years ago; I reached out to him, he's since accepted my forgiveness for what I subjected him to that night). If that weren't bad enough, I had an unhealthy relationship with a developmentally disabled man in his early 50's who wanted to get into S&M with me when we first met. Although it was the intention, I still consider what I did to him abuse, a way of excusing beating him for the anger I had repressed over the years, so, I guess that makes me a physical and psychological abuser as well (I should have known better than to go along with someone so helpless; like my ex-boyfriend, this man has also forgiven me. We both realized I couldn't handle being with him and that we were incompatible). I don't really want to be any of these things. I just want to feel something good every now and then. I've abstained and do not interact with other gay guys anymore. They seem to be very cause driven nowadays and see me as some local equivalent Harvey Weinstein. I'm not a serial rapist and have never molested a child.
As far as my anti-social personality, what's to be expected from the kind of life experiences I've gone through? I'm tapped out, constant degradation and put downs have taken their toll on me. I just don't have it in me to trust many people with more than my groceries or a bit of anonymous advice.
It is true. You feed the fire, but the fire isn't external from you, to search for it in a forum or other people. It's in you, right in the middle of your mindset.
I told you, stop paying your problems so much attention - that's not going to make them go away faster.
Do something good for yourself instead of maintaining a self-deprecating stagnation.
Quoting THX1138
Then do that. Don't just want it, do it.
Quoting THX1138
Quoting Shamshir
What's to be expected when my friend, lost his legs and acquired lung cancer?
Well, he decided he was going to climb up Everest without an oxygen bottle, and he did.
What about Vinny Paz who broke his neck? Did he stop boxing?
The final call lies with you - you can either make it or break it.
Sure I do Wallows, here are the criteria again, just need to know the meaning of the words mentioned https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519704/table/ch3.t22/
A psychiatrist doesn't know better what schizophrenia is, they just know who to lump into the schizophrenia box by applying the criteria, and who to lump into some other box by applying some other criteria.
Again, feeling bad and having delusions is enough to be labeled as schizophrenic. Now what is a delusion? A belief contradicted by reality. But who gets to decide what reality is? If you have philosophized some, you would know that people and social consensus play a great part in defining reality. So, fundamentally, if you feel bad and you have beliefs that do not follow the consensus (and as a result you behave in ways that do not follow the consensus), you're labeled as schizophrenic.
As to why coming to accept your diagnosis was a relief to you, I would say some of the reasons are likely that you came to agree with some authority you were previously in conflict with for not accepting what they told you, and that you put down your defenses and agreed to let people help you, but I don't know your story so there are probably reasons I don't know about that pertain to your particular case.
Are you serious? You must have some simplified view of opening up the DSM-5 and checking how many reported symptoms to fall into some category of mental illness, right?
Quoting leo
Ok, here's the brief schtick. Schizophrenia isn't only composed of delusions. There are phases in the life of a schizophrenic. Such as prodromal periods, frank psychosis, and eventually a persistent struggle to form an identity. Now, tell me how any of these phases of the illness can be discerned online in a quick manner, baffles my mind...
Quoting leo
This simply does not follow and I don't even know what you are trying to say here.
Quoting leo
OK, quick psychology 101... Schizophrenics are notoriously difficult to treat. They have their own theories about how their unstable view of the world "really" functions; be it the Illuminati, alien lizards, or their neighbor eavesdropping on their phone and internet. Shit like this is REALLY hard to treat since they seem life-threatening to the person experiencing these thoughts or delusions.
Now even deeper, a schizophrenic's identity is constantly changing due to their fluctuating existence. Perhaps, the singular best thing for the prognosis of a schizophrenic (apart from taking medication) is to accept their disabled identity and work from there.
In my view, most get stuck on phase "struggling for control" as long as there is a profound dissonance with the perceived stigma of the diagnosis, which tragically is reaffirmed by many people who have no idea what schizophrenia actually is.
Let's say I can accept being Schizophrenic. To be honest, I can. I certainly accept I'm mentally ill in some form, just always questioned if Schizophrenia accurately identified my particular condition.
Alright, I'm hereby knighted Don Quixote, fighter of windmills.
Now what? Does being identified as Schizophrenic mean I deserve help? Why? Am I a good enough person to be helped? I struggle with henious thoughts. Does anyone really want to help someone like that out? To what end?
I have my just desserts. I'm Schizophrenic because my body's inability to regulate it's cerebral hormonal production is unbalanced and my brain doesn't have sufficient gray matter to reach a potential that can override my affliction. If I were at least more decent or talented, I'd deserve to be reached out to, to be aided. I'm not though. I have trouble being In most work environments. I'm not even cut out to be a piece of sh** who at least has a commendable work ethic.
In a cosmic way, my fate is fitting, wouldn't you say?
Quoting Kippo
Here is a perfect example. Now, believe it or not Wallow, the common elements between Kippo' s post and the post I made right after were not influenced from Kippo's post to my own, as the time stamp would suggest. I was in the middle of writing my responding post when Kippo posted his/her response while mine was underway. Now Kippo, I'm not saying I know you have insight on my activities, cyber, physical local or otherwise, but, my paranoia is urging me to accept you have at least some cyber knowledge of my ongoings, since the coincidence is too convienent. I also get the impression you are both patronizing me and gas lighting me in doing this.
I'll lay out how my own sense of morality (in consideration and relation to being dwarfed by the moral of others not receiving my stance neutrally):
What I do accept:
• I am a non-offending pedophile (no statutory rape required to have an inherent attraction to sex involving minors, though admission as opposed to denial and suppression means forever being ousted, even if one decides to not embrace and rationalize their inclination after copping up to it; I of course have decided to not treat my self discovery in this much more sympathetic way.)
• I am a non-serial rapist (it only takes once)
• I am a domestic abuser -- both physical and psychological (the physical abuse went on for two months under the guise of "S&M", the psychological lasted for three years; I believe my victim allowed for this because he is developmentally delayed and also because he like myself was raises in an impoverished environment that happen to permit this kind of abuse, which he has now normalized and subconciously seeks out.)
• I am an animal abuser (both physical and sexusl -- non-serial with the exception of one cat -- mostly during my childhood and adolescence; isolated incidents in adulthood that I can count off one hand.)
The consequences I agree are fitting:
• non-treatment for my mental illness, especially meds that would help with my sleep pattern and anxiety (I don't deserve this.)
• being homeless (no one should have to reside with me. Why put anyone in this position?)
• being looked into and reported to individuals in the community that have the misfortune of having to put up with my me being approximated amongst them (I tried resisting this before and was in denial of this stipulation; I get why I deserve it now.
• having said individuals ridicule and mock the aspects of my decided upon "mores" as a why of "weed control" in the absorbent garden that is community.
• not owning pets.
The allowances that I feel my self control can still afford me:
• communing with others (like certain members of this forum) whom are willing to hear me out and contemplate my situation (I don't accept that I should altogether cease communicating with others, I believe I've been a good enough boy to at least still be spared that privilege, especially since I'm being upfront here.)
• the freedom to be in public (all the situations in which I raped or abused -- with the exception of animals -- were in a context of mutual relationship or some established romance; I've never just plucked the first person I see that I become attracted to and take 'em right then and there.)
• the freedom to relocate.
There's nothing more that I can say here given those statements. I suggest addressing them honestly with your county psychiatrist.
Still, I hope you get a home or abode to stay in given the unfortunate predicament.
It's well deserved. Sure though, I can always get on meds. They won't prescribe me anything for my anxiety anyway. I'll probably merit all the side effects that the rest of my body will be prone to for my brain's inadequacy -- digestive problems, tumors, kidney failure, brittle bones, shakey hands -- all that jazz.
I think that would be a first good step. Good luck! :up:
I never claimed it was, I said feeling bad + delusions is enough to be labeled as schizophrenic.
Quoting Wallows
In the example where the label of schizophrenic stems from a delusion (that is a specific kind of belief), there are obviously phases in the life of a belief, which has an influence on the life of the person holding it. Not knowing whether to hang onto the belief or not is a struggle to form an identity.
Quoting Wallows
It does follow, you not seeing the logical connection is not my issue.
I do not get the impression at all that he was patronizing you or gaslighting you, I saw him as an individual who expressed sincerely how he felt. The coincidence is not that extraordinary, this thread has turned into a discussion about mental health issues, he identified with it, he replied at the time he did because Wallows had just posted beforehand and so this thread appeared at the top of the forum. Keep in mind that other people have feelings too and that not all their thoughts and feelings revolve around you, just relax mate.
If you are in a situation where you do not feel safe and you feel threatened, that paranoia is a normal defense mechanism. At this point I think the two things that would help you most would be to find some community in which you can feel welcomed so you stop feeling so isolated, and a home so you can feel less unsafe. There must be some social workers who can help you with that.
Yeah, I agree. I was paranoid and simultaneously, I think Kippo is wondering about his own state of mind. Kippo reached out to me in a PM and by then, I calmed down and realized I made a miscorrelation and apologized. I'm not feeling that paranoid anymore. I hope Kippo will be okay, kinda went MIA in the middle of our PM.
Since I'm not getting a response and lashed out earlier, maybe you guys can check up on Kippo, make sure everything is okay. I feel like such a jerk now.
He mentioned he's giving up posting on the internet altogether, so I doubt he will see our messages, unless he changes his mind. But he is probably alright, he felt he needed to stop posting on the internet, so you assuming he was gaslighting you might have just comforted him in his decision. And you're probably more thinking about it than he is right now.
Kippo! Haha. You are fine. But, I've been having second thoughts myself about restricting where I try and rationalize things about myself. It seems to me, that anywhere else but here is full of negativity and bad responses. Anyway, I've been having second thoughts myself about entirely quitting the internet apart from posting here...
Best regards.
OMG I'm in the matrix!
I understand now how schizophrenia or something similar could flood a person. It;s like conspiracy theory - to find a denial is merely proof of a deeper conspiracy. There are no limits to the levels!
This is something that affects me too. It is quite possible in the age of mobile phones to be harrassed and observed, and for your reputation to be trashed.
Anyhow, I've got a new perspective on matters. and I can improve further I hope.
It was indeed complicated to fathom , but I accept this new perspective. Good will come of it.