You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Was Wittgenstein anti-philosophy?

Shawn April 07, 2019 at 21:19 9650 views 40 comments
One of my most dear and beloved philosophers, Ludwig Wittgenstein has always been a sort of an enigma to me.

On the one hand, he is arguably the greatest philosopher of the 20'th century. His contributions seen in the Tractatus and the Investigations are without a doubt impressive.

Yet, people seem to get lost in his philosophy, instead of focusing on the primary theme of his philosophy; being, the resolution of philosophical problems into senseless or nonsensical problems.

So great has Wittgenstein's influence on me is or have been to the point of abandoning any plans on majoring in philosophy at college.

To anyone who has majored or is thinking about majoring in philosophy in some institution, isn't Wittgenstein a sort of cognitive dissonance or bittersweet inducing experience?

Comments (40)

Valentinus April 07, 2019 at 22:55 #273893
Quoting Wallows
So great has Wittgenstein's influence on me is or have been to the point of abandoning any plans on majoring in philosophy at college.


That is unfortunate. I did not get the impression while wrestling with him that he was solving all the problems in so far as they could be solved. He is more Zhuangzi than Kant regarding the limits of explanation.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 22:57 #273894
Quoting Valentinus
That is unfortunate. I did not get the impression while wrestling with him that he was solving all the problems in so far as they could be solved. He is more Zhuangzi than Kant regarding the limits of explanation.


There is a tale, I can't find the source and my memory is finicky, that a student of Wittgenstein abandoned his doctoral thesis in philosophy and left college. Upon hearing this Wittgenstein proclaimed that he ought to be granted tenure or some such matter for this act.
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:20 #273908
Reply to Wallows Philosophy is useless. If you have a choice, don't do it.

If.

Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:22 #273909
Quoting Banno
Philosophy is useless. If you have a choice, don't do it.


Do you really believe that or is this bullshitting in practice?
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:31 #273915
Reply to Wallows I believe it on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays.

Teaching is an odd profession in that if one does it well, the student will no longer need the teacher; teachers seek to do themselves out of a job. If people did not insist on having more kids, we would not need teachers.

We would not need philosophers if folk stoped getting tangled up in their worlds and words.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:34 #273918
Quoting Banno
I believe it on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays.


But, today is Sunday.

Quoting Banno
Teaching is an odd profession in that if one does it well, the student will no longer need the teacher; teachers seek to do themselves out of a job. If people did not insist on having more kids, we would not need teachers.


I feel sorry for teachers. I still consider it a noble profession.

Quoting Banno
We would not need philosophers if folk stoped getting tangled up in their worlds and words.


Ahh, they'd go on well without anyone teaching them also.
Valentinus April 07, 2019 at 23:34 #273919
Reply to Wallows
One teacher I had while reading Wittgenstein pointed out that shooing the fly out of the bottle is not an event if you don't own the both the bottle and the fly.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:37 #273923
Quoting Valentinus
One teacher I had while reading Wittgenstein pointed out that shooing the fly out of the bottle is not an event if you don't own the both the bottle and the fly.


Hmm, what do you mean by that? It's not quite clear to me. I miss being in the bottle. There is certainty in the struggle of the fly trying to get out. Once it is out, then the struggle disappears. Everything else becomes non-relevant.
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:37 #273924
Quoting Wallows
But, today is Sunday.


No, it's Monday. I live in your future.

Philosophers generally think of themselves as teachers; they set out to explain where others have gone wrong, and to show folk what they ought do.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:39 #273925
Quoting Banno
Philosophers generally think of themselves as teachers; they set out to explain where others have gone wrong, and to show folk what they ought do.


Are they any good at their job?
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:45 #273928
Reply to Wallows Ah. Now, what do we mean by "good at their job"?

Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:49 #273931
Quoting Banno
Ah. Now, what do we mean by "good at their job"?


When the patient has achieved remission?
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:51 #273932
Reply to Wallows Or when the student abandons his doctoral thesis in philosophy and leaves college.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:53 #273933
Quoting Banno
Or when the student abandons his doctoral thesis in philosophy and leaves college.


Certainly a confusing experience. I feel sorry for the bloke. But, then again philosophy is no authority on living life.
Banno April 07, 2019 at 23:55 #273934
Quoting Wallows
philosophy is no authority on living life.


Oh, I wouldn't say that.
Shawn April 07, 2019 at 23:56 #273935
Quoting Banno
Oh, I wouldn't say that.


Well, I phrased it deceptively. Life is one thing, the other part is living it.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 00:04 #273937
Reply to Wallows Ok, but it would be wrong to think that philosophy is unimportant.

Getting it wrong leads to all sorts of trouble.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 00:05 #273938
Quoting Banno
Ok, but it would be wrong to think that philosophy is unimportant.


No, it is not unimportant. Maybe impotent?
Valentinus April 08, 2019 at 00:19 #273944
Reply to Wallows
So, you read the fly as representing yourself in the bottle.

I think of it more as a way to not just keep repeating certain problems. Not because they have disappeared but because one can change your relation to them over time.

My teacher's remark was a caution against living too vicariously through other people's processes.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 00:24 #273945
Quoting Valentinus
...shooing the fly...


It's shewing, and archaic spelling of showing...

Not Shooing.
I like sushi April 08, 2019 at 00:31 #273949
“Teaching” is self-deception, and “philosophy” is 90% pretension, 10% pedantry.

“Teaching philosophy” is the lowest of the low.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 00:48 #273962
Reply to I like sushi A trite pretence.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 00:55 #273966
Reply to Banno

Yet, here we are metalogically talking about the merits or detriments of philosophy.

Quite a conundrum.
Valentinus April 08, 2019 at 00:56 #273968
Reply to Banno
Point taken. More of a guiding action than a waving away.
The fly could see all the motion either way.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 00:59 #273970
Reply to Valentinus To misquote Camus:

One must imagine the fly happy.
S April 08, 2019 at 01:06 #273973
Quoting Banno
Teaching is an odd profession in that if one does it well, the student will no longer need the teacher; teachers seek to do themselves out of a job. If people did not insist on having more kids, we would not need teachers.

We would not need philosophers if folk stopped getting tangled up in their worlds and words.


So we'll always need teachers and philosophers. Perhaps philosophy is useful after all, although it is a Monday, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow until we're on the same wavelength.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 01:28 #273981
Reply to Banno

The fly is content. It doesn't need any shooing or showing or shewing.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 01:29 #273983
Reply to Wallows Then along comes Wittgenstein...
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 01:31 #273984
Yes, he came and the poor fly was evicted from its familiar abode.

Poor fly.
S April 08, 2019 at 02:04 #273997
Quoting Wallows
Yes, he came and the poor fly was evicted from its familiar abode.

Poor fly.


The fly doesn't need your sympathy, this is a cause for celebration. It has been liberated. Fly away, dear fly, fly away. Up, up, and away.

Until I shewt you down.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 02:09 #273999
Reply to S

No, the rights of the fly have been infringed by an overzealous individual.

These are grounds for the fly to sue Wittgenstein.
Streetlight April 08, 2019 at 04:07 #274025
Like every other undertaker of philosophy, Wittgenstein was buried by it, and it will continue to bury those like him. In any case, Wittgenstein was a philosopher through and through - a philosopher who couldn't recognize himself in the mirror, and inspired a thousand other miserable soon-to-be-dead undertakers.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 07:41 #274063
Reply to StreetlightX

So, Wittgenstein was in contradiction. To borrow a term from Harry Frankfurt, was there a higher order volition (non egotistical) to dissuade others from doing philosophy and instead appreciate the esoteric and mystical that is religion, ethics in practice and charitable deeds?

I feel as though despite the overtones of Schopenhauer in Wittgenstein's early philosophy that he realized that it was his, so to speak, "duty" to dissolve the problems of philosophy, even though he rather failed at this task in my humble opinion.
Banno April 08, 2019 at 08:06 #274071
Reply to StreetlightX Including @StreetlightX?
Streetlight April 08, 2019 at 08:19 #274073
Quoting Wallows
So, Wittgenstein was in contradiction


One can think oneself a flowerpot and not be a flowerpot. That's not a contradiction. That's being wrong. In any case, Witty simply had a narrow, thinly pitched idea of what he understood to be 'philosophy'; he may have exploded it, well even, but expunging shadows ain't all that.

Reply to Banno Sure, but I've no pretension to declare the 'uselessness' or 'senselessness' of philosophy.
Sam26 April 08, 2019 at 11:56 #274158
I wouldn't go as far as Banno, although I do think much of philosophy is just bulls***. It's true that Wittgenstein told many of his friends who were inclined to become philosophers, to not do it. He would rather they pursue something else - something more useful or productive.
leo April 08, 2019 at 12:41 #274175
Philosophers attempt to answer some questions, Wittgenstein attempted to answer most of them, he just didn't give the answer they wanted. One doesn't like to hear that their life work is meaningless mind games. It's only anti-philosophy in so far as answering philosophical questions is anti-philosophy, in that it removes mental knots philosophy busies itself with untying.

If language stems from experiences, and questions are settled through experiences, then there are only practical problems.

People ask, "what is the meaning of life?", or more precisely "what is the purpose of my life?". The very concept of purpose stems from experiences where some object is useful to reach something that is wanted, a hammer laying there has no purpose unless one wants to use it for something, then its purpose becomes to help reach the thing that is wanted. In the same way, one's life has no purpose unless one wants to use it for something, then its purpose becomes to help reach what is wanted. The answer is either obvious, or there is no answer until one finds something they want to reach with their life. The underlying practical problem would be "how do I find something I want to reach with my life?", but there is nothing deeper to it.

Or some might ponder endlessly "what is time?", thinking of time as some mysterious entity that passes or that flows, without realizing that our concept of time stems from us experiencing change. A clock is something that changes, that we use as a point of reference to relate to other things that change, and then we say that a clock measures time as if time was an entity with an independent existence, and then we try to find that entity but there is nothing to find, there is just needles moving or shapes changing, there is just change.

Or often we ask "why?", such as "why is there something rather than nothing?", or "why is there this rather than something else?". Where does our concept of "why" stem from? We see someone do something, and we wonder what drove them to do what they did, what was it that they wanted, what was desired to be attained. Or we see something in a unusual place and we wonder how it got there, was it someone who put it there or the wind or some unknown force? The word "why" summarizes that, attempting to know what was the desire that drove someone, or what was the creature or the thing that was responsible for moving or building or destroying something.

But then when we are asking "why is there something rather than nothing", we are wondering what was the desire or what was the thing that is responsible for there being something rather than nothing, which presupposes the existence of some being or phenomenon outside of our experience with the power of creating everything we can experience, but if the "something" in the question is taken to include everything outside of our experience too then "why" cannot apply to it and the question has no meaning. Just like "what does time smell like" has no meaning, many questions that can be formulated in a language have no meaning, in that they don't relate to anything from which the language was built in the first place. And once all such questions are removed there only remains the practical ones that relate to what we do experience.
Fooloso4 April 08, 2019 at 13:48 #274191
Quoting Wallows
Yet, people seem to get lost in his philosophy, instead of focusing on the primary theme of his philosophy; being, the resolution of philosophical problems into senseless or nonsensical problems.


If that was the theme of his philosophy then why did he continue? Did he fail to resolve the problems for himself? Was his primary theme to help others solve the problems he had solved for himself? If this were the case then why his extensive private notebooks? Some of these notes were work on books he never published, but others were his way of thinking with his pen.

Culture and Value:I really do think with my pen, because my head often knows nothing about what my hand is writing.


Quoting Wallows
people seem to get lost in his philosophy


Culture and Value:When you are philosophizing you have to descend into primeval chaos and feel at home there.


Quoting Wallows
To anyone who has majored or is thinking about majoring in philosophy in some institution, isn't Wittgenstein a sort of cognitive dissonance or bittersweet inducing experience?


I was attracted to the interpretive challenge, becoming totally engrossed in trying to think along with him, making connections. I take the cognitive dissonance to be fundamental to the pursuit of philosophy. Philosophy can be truly dangerous if one is unable to be comfortable with that dissonance.

I take seriously the following from a draft for the preface to Philosophical Remarks:

Culture and Value:If you have a room which you do not want certain people to get into, put a lock on
it for which they do not have the key. But there is no point in talking to them about it,
unless of course you want them to admire the room from outside!

The honorable thing to do is to put a lock on the door which will be noticed only
by those who can open it, not by the rest.


There are locked doors, rooms we are prevented from entering in Wittgenstein's writings. The first step is not to find the key but to find the lock.
Shawn April 08, 2019 at 14:01 #274194
Quoting Fooloso4
If that was the theme of his philosophy then why did he continue?


[Psychologizing ensues] And here I have to say that Wittgenstein was motivated by personal issues or perhaps even perceived shortcomings. I haven't read his biography; but, it is common knowledge that he struggled with suicidal thoughts and most probably some form of PTSD after the World Wars.

Basically, I find his philosophy motivated by an existential impetus. Even though it is debatable whether he classifies as a continental philosopher or analytic one, I still find comfort in the mixture of the two that can be found in his philosophy.

Quoting Fooloso4
Did he fail to resolve the problems for himself?


Yes, perhaps.

Quoting Fooloso4
If this were the case then why his extensive private notebooks? Some of these notes were work on books he never published, but others were his way of thinking with his pen.


Again, maybe they were not meant for publication, much like Marcus Aurelius Meditations were a private diary.

Quoting Fooloso4
I take the cognitive dissonance to be fundamental to the pursuit of philosophy. Philosophy can be truly dangerous if one is unable to be comfortable with that dissonance.


Yes, please expand on this.

Quoting Fooloso4
There are locked doors, rooms we are prevented from entering in Wittgenstein's writings. The first step is not to find the key but to find the lock.


Enigmatic as always with Wittgenstein.
Fooloso4 April 08, 2019 at 15:02 #274215
Quoting Wallows
And here I have to say that Wittgenstein was motivated by personal issues or perhaps even perceived shortcomings.


I would say more generally that Wittgenstein was motivated to think. This includes but is not limited to problem solving.


Culture and Value:Working in philosophy -- like work in architecture in many respects -- is really more a working on oneself. On one's interpretation. On one's way of seeing things. (And what one expects of them.)


The solving of philosophical puzzles is related to the larger issue of how one sees things. The puzzlement stands in one's way. But the elimination of the problems is not the elimination of philosophy, although it might mean the elimination of philosophy as it has been practiced by some.

Quoting Wallows
I take the cognitive dissonance to be fundamental to the pursuit of philosophy. Philosophy can be truly dangerous if one is unable to be comfortable with that dissonance.
— Fooloso4

Yes, please expand on this.


Socrates was accused of being a torpedo fish, numbing his interlocutors. What he was doing, however, was simply demonstrating to them that they did not know what they professed or assumed to know. This was not the end but rather the beginning of philosophical inquiry. Not having solid ground to stand on, however, can cause vertigo as one stares into the abyss. This uncertainty can be incapacitating for some, as they come to question everything and cannot feel certain about anything. Or they may latch on to something that promises to be the answer.