Is philosophy for everyone or who needs it?
Philosophers are said to be mad people.
The Hoi polloi thought so too with the death of Socrates.
So, is philosophy for everyone? Since no authority can be bestowed upon any particular philosopher or philosophy, then is it just a waste of time talking to people about philosophy?
It seems to me that given my interactions with certain members here, that they are actually anti-philosophy. Yet, why would you want to engage in philosophy if you are actually anti-philosophy?
I'm having a change of heart in regards to philosophy. It has been a pleasant experience to talk about abstract concepts and such; but, there's a world out there that needs one's attention at making better?
Therefore, what good does philosophy have to an individual? I don't mean this in a materialistic or utilitarian fashion, just generally?
The Hoi polloi thought so too with the death of Socrates.
So, is philosophy for everyone? Since no authority can be bestowed upon any particular philosopher or philosophy, then is it just a waste of time talking to people about philosophy?
It seems to me that given my interactions with certain members here, that they are actually anti-philosophy. Yet, why would you want to engage in philosophy if you are actually anti-philosophy?
I'm having a change of heart in regards to philosophy. It has been a pleasant experience to talk about abstract concepts and such; but, there's a world out there that needs one's attention at making better?
Therefore, what good does philosophy have to an individual? I don't mean this in a materialistic or utilitarian fashion, just generally?
Comments (58)
Speaking of which, this one's a good one to escape for a while:
Yeah, that's perhaps the issue here. Nobody asked to be cured. Nobody wants to be cured. So, why bother? The people who demand that others be cured are no different than evangelicals. Don't you think so too?
I think there's a difference between demanding something of someone, and showing them a pathway, or inviting someone to sit under a tree for a while. If they decline or walk a different path, then so be it. If someone doesn't need to be cured, then good for them. But perhaps they're under an illusion. Personally, I strive to treat myself where necessary. But it's important to treat yourself with medicine, and not poison.
But, is the unexamined life really not worth living? I could just as well live "an unexamined life" and be happy too. Keep in mind that all what our conversations amount to are elaborate and abstract sayings like "philosophy as therapy", "the unexamined life..." and so on.
Is this plain and simple mental masturbation?
That's for you decide, is it not?
Quoting Wallows
Okay. And you judge that to be of equal value?
Quoting Wallows
[I]Noun. mental masturbation (uncountable) (slang) Engaging in intellectually stimulating conversation with little or no practical purpose.[/I]
I can get practical purpose out of philosophy. I thought you could, too.
Anyway, sometimes the "mad" ones are the best ones. Who wants to be normal?
as you said if you have something better to do with your time like make the world a better place then i suggest you do something other than philosophize. I used to be a part of an organization that said all alcohol consumption was wrong and as a result i've tried to drastically reduce how much alcohol i drink. People who use less drugs are more likely to spend more time with things that deal with the mind. Right wrong or indifferent.
If so, then I must be an exception. I do both more than the average person.
You're a smart guy, do away with the drugs. They're a dead end.
Some rather smart people, such as Aldous Huxley for one, Timothy Leary for another, would disagree with your separation of substance use from matters of the mind.
i guess i didn't phrase that quite right but the way i intended to phrase it is that people who use drugs are more likely to end their boredom with something other than things like philosophy forums. I actually use various legal drugs on occasion and depending on my circumstances during that period of my life i do drink some alcohol.
I don't think philosophy has "no" value contrary to what a nihilist might say. If that were true then Nietzsche would have been the last philosopher, philosophy would have to offer.
Ludwig Wittgenstein has been a philosopher who has taught me that philosophy can be a detriment to the welfare of an individual, when that time spent dealing with mental abstractions and ethics, ought to be applied and put in practice. Hence, I find anyone who advocates philosophy as therapy, where nobody is asking for it in some sort of contradiction.
How does one progress from this dilemma?
I would argue content people have a tendency of not "stirring the pot" in their own mind but that is not a hard and fast rule that i consider to be true.
i would agree with that.
As to how someone progresses from that dilemna i would say we can only control ourselves and i would say out in public or outside in the "real world" its best to say less rather than more when it comes to deep subjects. When i'm out in public i just try to appear to be a functioning adult. I do however believe some people are called to speak their mind on the philosophical premises that they believe.
But, when a person engages in philosophy, then is that a waste of time?
These days, philosophy is more of a flippant pastime. Those who pay for an education in philosophy gain little more than a false sense of superiority and a trolling platform on social media, unless they're motivated enough to write a book or become a teacher and achieve some measure of success by passing on the useless 700 year old obsolete information on which they've been instructed. It's all just flowery words and broken logic, name dropping and religious fervor for ideas most of which weren't even good when they were first written centuries ago.
And again, if so, then I am still very much the exception to this. I have 9,000 comments here, 12,000 posts on the old forum, and I have spent a great deal of time on a philosophy forum over the last ten years. Currently, it is a daily activity.
I also, as I mentioned, happen do drugs more often than the average person.
Quoting Wallows
I'm aware that they're not exactly harmless little drops of magic. But we were just talking about demanding something of someone. You questioned whether it was any different to evangelism. And, of all people, I certainly do not simply bow down to an imperative like, "Do away with the drugs". No, do away with the do away-ing: wasn't that sort of your message here? I don't want your cure. I'm a free spirit.
But you're right about one thing: I [i]am[/I] a smart guy. I'm also a mad philosopher.
I'm not sure where "content people" fit in here. If you're content, then you're likely not using enough of a given substance to have a significant impact on your consciousness.
OK, so maybe I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater; but, if the aim is to become sharper at critical thinking, or better at rhetoric, then isn't all the rest of philosophy redundant.
I may be coming off a little harsh here in saying that nobody needs philosophy. But, when is enough enough?
To remain consistent in my theme here, I don't command you or have any authority over the choices you make in life. But, I have had some (extensive) experience with drugs myself, and nothing good ever came out of it. Just my two cents. Take it or leave it.
you can get past the rhetoric and the eloquent words of some famous philosopher but at the end of the day some what they say may be true. Even country bumpkins engage in philosophy and i would argue very often the country bumpkins have something that the elites may never have. I do recognize you touched on some of this in your response.
"And again, if so, then I am still very much the exception to this. I have 9,000 comments here, 12,000 posts on the old forum, and I have spent a great deal of time on a philosophy forum over the last ten years. Currently, it is a daily activity.
I also, as I mentioned, happen do drugs more often than the average person."
absolutely. Its not a one size fits all as far a i'm concerned.
I don't believe you, though. I believe that the scales tipped against it in your case, or at least you reached that conclusion, but not that nothing good ever came out of it. I think that that's your antagonism talking. You project your own experience on to others, overstepping your bounds. But you mean well.
In my opinion, philosophy as a field of study is regressive and fundamentally useless to society, but discussion, debate and "philosophizing" can be useful or entertaining, possibly even enlightening, as a pastime for individuals or groups of people.
No, I don't dare project my sentiment/feelings/emotions/experience onto others. Idiots do that. If you need a word for it, it might be a simple matter of caring for your welfare, which you abhor. But, as you said, I mean well.
What's the contradiction? It's not a contradiction, but a paradox at best. It can make sense to advocate what's in someone's best interest, even if that someone is against it.
Quoting Wallows
Keep trying or move on.
Here I would disagree with you. Who would imagine that some bloke like Marx would shape not one, not two, but many societies in the world? Likewise, Comte or Locke had a profound influence on the constitution of the USA. Or Plato on the Islamic Republic.
It's scary what philosophy can influence.
So, you're telling me at one end that drugs are not bad (just an example); but, a lifestyle choice. On the other end, I'm asking you what utility do drugs have to an individual?
Yes, as a result of Karl Marx, approximately 120 million innocent people have died, several economies have failed or are failing, several bitter revolutionary uprisings have caused social and political unrest and needless human suffering, that's quite some society shaping.
Therefore what can be said about philosophy? I think the conclusion is clear, it's a dangerous tool that can be wielded by people who have nefarious goals. Just off the top of my head think about the (perverted) philosophy of Nietzsche and the Nazis?
What was "perverted" about Nietzsche, specifically, and why would you place him in a category with Nazis, who were not philosophers.
So then presumably you accept that [i]you[/I] not getting any good out of it, and drugs being a dead end [i]for you[/I], is not necessarily true of others, in line with their own sentiments, experience, etc., which is not going to be identical to [i]your[/I] sentiments, experience, etc.?
And I do not abhor what you say I do.
Supposedly his sister put words into his mouth that were not his. Regarding the lower status of Slavs or Jews.
Quoting whollyrolling
Well, they claimed to practice his (perverted) philosophy, did they not?
To each his or her own, I suppose. If drugs really give you a kick, then so be it. Just don't become addicted or develop some dependency on them.
Quoting S
Then you don't.
Ehh, this is getting tiring. Must be my own hangover from yesterday. Heh.
I didn't tell you that drugs aren't bad. I've never told you that. I wouldn't say something so simplistic and misleading.
And the potential utility is blindingly obvious, and we've been over this before. They are called recreational drugs for a reason. Their use is recreational. You wouldn't query this of other recreational activities, so you apply a double standard.
So, the value is in their recreational import to people. Okay, somewhat circular; but, have it your way.
Yes.
Quoting Wallows
I don't see any supposed circularity.
What I'm trying to imply is why would people need to have recreational experiences if their lives are going great and well. We talked about this in that other thread on illegal drugs.
Just don't wallow too much or too deeply. Don't wallow in excess. Find your balance. Or, fuck it, do whatever, because fuck it.
The philosophy of fuck it. :grin:
I've read both positive and negative sentiments by Nietzsche concerning Jews, as well as women, musicians, philosophers, Germans, Europeans in general, etc. The worst sentiments he expressed were about other philosophers. He would certainly be considered a racist by today's standards for merely mentioning Jews, or any other category of human beings, in any stereotypical context. As far as I know, Hitler was neither a well-educated nor an accomplished human being before he engaged in political action just prior to his first attempted overthrow of Germany, but I could be mistaken.
Yes, yes. I think the medicine is working now.
I'm no expert on Nietzsche, just read his Thus Spake Zarathustra. But, one thing I do know is that he is a terribly misunderstood philosopher.
Anyway, I hope I built no straw men hereabouts.
Haha. Right. Their lives are going so great and well that they have no "need" (it's about desire, not necessity!) for skiing or bowling or going to the movies or to a dance club or to experience a hallucinogenic drug or the euphoria of ecstasy and so on and so forth. That sure sounds real fun.
The unfun life is not worth living. I am not a square.
Whoa, I never said anything like that. Do as you wish. Or better move to Holland where you can find pushers on every corner of a red light district. Ok, now I'm exaggerating. I hear Holland is one of the happiest countries on Earth.
I am Sir Wallows.
Except you did, you just move the goalposts. Everything I listed was an example of a recreational experience. You questioned the "need" for recreational experiences if someone's life is going "great" and "well".
Quoting Wallows
Hahahahahaha. This is brilliant. You'll never guess where I'm going in about two months time. Seriously. The flights and accommodation are booked.
Of course it is. I'm the doctor.
And, I'm Sir Wallows.
When were you knighted? I must have missed that. I was probably off my tits on drugs or engaging in mental masturbation.
It was spontaneous. Like enlightenment, ya 'know?
Of course I know. I'm the Buddha.
"It’s for no one and no one needs it. Mere “love” of wisdom is akin to porn addiction. "
well lets not go that far. Porn addiction has been shown under extreme circumstances to lead to severe (such as rape) sexual crimes. Please do your own research on this.
The relief of MS-related unpleasantness that I get from cannabis is real and worthwhile. The additional relief I get from gabapentin is also real and worthwhile. Isn't everything we partake of, a 'drug', in some sense? Maybe even water?