You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?

Gnostic Christian Bishop April 04, 2019 at 16:10 11900 views 88 comments
Do Christians have Stockholm syndrome where one loves his abuser?

I will not pull my punches on this issue. Christians know that we Gnostic Christians think that their genocidal and infanticidal God is one vile satanic piece of work. Gnostic Christians call evil evil while Christians call evil good. Muslims, who idol worship the same God, do the same thing and suffer from the same condition.

That is why Gnostic Christians call Yahweh a demiurge when discussing our myths. Myths that we do not foolishly read literally the way foolish Christians read theirs.

If these actors were real, they would be showing you how Gnostic Christians think.
https://vimeo.com/7038401

Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors, as a survival strategy during captivity, to the point of loving and protecting their abuser from harm.

Yahweh used genocide on humanity, yet Christians forgive him and even praise him for killing when he could have just cured all. Christians also forgive Yahweh for torturing and murdering innocent babies, with the vilest incident being King David’s baby. Yahweh did the satanic thing instead of the Godly thing.

As a real instead of fictional analogy, I offer that Hitler also used genocidal ways, also tortured children. In his case the world, even some Christians, recognized his satanic ways and condemned him.

The Christian mindset of calling evil good that, Christians are demonstrating, shows that Christians either developed an immoral double moral standard, --- where they praise the genocidal attribute of God, while condemning the same attribute in a man, --- or they collectively have Stockholm syndrome. I do not see a third option.

The analogy shows that Christians adoring Yahweh is like Jews adoring Hitler. Something seems to be wrong with Christian thinking.

Which label do you apply to those who adore a genocidal entity? Good or evil?

Regards
DL

Comments (88)

S April 04, 2019 at 17:19 #272636
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop I don't do storytime, full stop. You're as bad as them in some respects. But yes, I get the analogy you make and agree with it. They explain the bad away with apologism in order to maintain their precious self-deception. Heaven forbid they boldly face up to reality without cowardice.

There is so much in reality to fill me with wonder and amazement and a sense of profundity, that I do not need and actively discourage treating myths as anything other than myths. I am currently reading a book called [I]Reality Is Not What It Seems: The Journey To Quantum Gravity[/I] by Carlo Rovelli, and I would pick that sort of book over any religious fiction, and over [i]Harry Potter and The I Don't Give a Damn[/I].
hachit April 04, 2019 at 19:25 #272661
If you're going to talk about this, I'm going to need a more specific example of Christians calling evil, good.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 04, 2019 at 19:37 #272668
Quoting S
You're as bad as them in some respects


Such as?

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop April 04, 2019 at 19:38 #272669
Quoting hachit
If you're going to talk about this, I'm going to need a more specific example of Christians calling evil, good.


What can be more specific and evil than mass murder?

Be specific.

Regards
DL
hachit April 04, 2019 at 19:48 #272672
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop the church is so reliant on context I basically need the storys. But for the time being I think your using murder in place of killings
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 04, 2019 at 20:00 #272676
Was the seven day torture of King David's baby before finally murdering it just a normal killing to you?
Are the many drowning's of babies and children In Noah's flood just plain od killing and not murder to you?

Regards
DL
hachit April 04, 2019 at 20:24 #272691
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop yes, here is why. God loves humans, however he cannot be in the present ofor sin. The punishment of sin is death. Murder implys hate. This paradox is probably were your idea came from.
S April 04, 2019 at 20:30 #272696
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Such as?


Such as all of the religious nonsense. [I]All of it.[/I]
CaZaNOx April 04, 2019 at 22:14 #272730
Quoting hachit
the church is so reliant on context I basically need the storys. But for the time being I think your using murder in place of killings


What about Sodom and Gomorrah? God specifies the number 10(why 10). If one can find 10 righteous people(I don't know if this only applies to adults/male adults) in Sodom he will spare the city.
This suggests a very strange principle if we assume there to be 9 righteous people in the city. God would punish\kill them because of association. Similarly he would spare the sinful people due to being associated by living in the city with 10 righteous people.
This seems rather odd. And just to prevent this kind of response the righteous people (Lot and family) (lets leave aside how righteous of an act it is to offer ones daughter to be raped) are saved by the angles not god. However Lot's wife turns in to a pillar of salt due to reassociating by the act of looking back.

Now I think the entire introduced concept of guilt by association is problematic. Other instances of the same principle would be original sin and the connected concepts f.e. limbo(referring to edge of hell for infant deaths)
hachit April 04, 2019 at 22:28 #272735
Reply to CaZaNOx lot was trying to bargan for the cites safety.
In realty he only need to find 6, because he and his family.
Later the number was lowered to 5, so he only need to find one.

As for
However Lot's wife turns in to a pillar of salt due to reassociating by the act of looking back.

As mentioned the punishment for sin is death

Now I think the entire introduced concept of guilt by association is problematic. Other instances of the same principle would be original sin and the connected concepts f.e. limbo(referring to edge of hell for infant deaths)

That is why God sent his son.

I'll say this thought, what is good and evil is different for everyone, there's not sum universal standard of them.
CaZaNOx April 04, 2019 at 22:37 #272736
Reply to hachit
Quoting hachit
As mentioned the punishment for sin is death


What exactly was the sin she committed in your view? Associating?

Quoting hachit
I'll say this thought, what is good and evil is different for everyone, there's not sum universal standard of them.


I agree to the first half but not to the second. Anyhow I would agree with the OP that there are quite a few dubious morals expressed in the bible. I don't think that Christianity can't acknowledge that but I think there's quit a bit of theological overhead to do so.
Anyhow I don't understand how you can claim that there is no universal standard when there seem to be universal categories (Heaven and Hell) that you fall into based on the judgment of your actions by God(in your view?). This is the case even if you assume God to be more forgiving torwards some people since they had it more difficult.
hachit April 04, 2019 at 23:19 #272738
Reply to CaZaNOx
what exactly was the sin she committed in your view? Associating?

ok this is something I should make clear. In christian theology sin is defined as to disobey God.

Also when I said
there's not sum universal standard of them.
I was furthing my point that good and evil have no objective meaning.
CaZaNOx April 05, 2019 at 02:49 #272777
Reply to hachitQuoting hachit
In christian theology sin is defined as to disobey God.


She disobeyed the angle, not god.

Quoting hachit
In realty he only need to find 6, because he and his family.
Later the number was lowered to 5, so he only need to find one.


How is changing it later justified, isn't this basically stating that god said it wrong? Did gods word change? Isn't 10 like a special number in Jewish fate?
The change also seems problematic since it supposes that the family members where actually righteous people. However from the story itself at least for his wive this case seems not well grounded. Especially in regards to the fact that the principle of righteous or guilty by association is introduced. It therefore could very easily be understood that there being saved results from being associated to a righteous person and not being righteous themselves. This however would again lead to god killing righteous people in the city which only committed the mistake of being in the city.
I am myself aware of possible escape routes a christian could take however all of them seem dodgy in nature. Reframing the picture every time but I think this itself is problematic behavior.

Quoting hachit
I was furthing my point that good and evil have no objective meaning.


How can god do a final categorizing in to good and evil if those terms have no objective meaning?
hachit April 05, 2019 at 09:44 #272862
She disobeyed the angle, not god.


The problem here is you don't know your angelology. Angles have no will of there own, that speak nothing except what God wants them to say.

Isn't 10 like a special number in Jewish fate?


Maby but I not Jewish

How is changing it later justified, isn't this basically stating that god said it wrong? Did gods word change? Isn't 10 like a special number in Jewish fate?
The change also seems problematic since it supposes that the family members where actually righteous people. However from the story itself at least for his wive this case seems not well grounded


Well I looked at the story to remind myself. I did make two mistakes the last change is to 10 from 50. He sill only would need to find one it's just that there are more people in this family than I remembered.
And it's not God changing the number, it was Abraham and God simply agrees.
Also yes there is gulit by association but the people he need to find are in absence of that.

How can god [sick] do a final categorizing in to good and evil if those terms have no objective meaning?


It is like this, you have your view of good and evil. Someone somewhere have there view of good and evil. They may not be all the same.
Now (I know all the problems with what I'm about to say) how dose God know what is good and evil? Divine command theory he decides.
By saying that good and evil have no objective meaning I'm really saying, what you call good an evil and what he calls good and evil may not always be the same.

However I should say there is a common ground
Good being it should be done
Evil being it shouldn't be done

I hope I didn't make things to confusing.
James Statter April 05, 2019 at 13:26 #272896
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

When did Yahweh torture innocent babies in the bible? The Amorites were a wicked people and Yahweh chose the jews because he knew they wouldn't listen to him and kill them outright (Jews/Israelites are known for being soft and weak). The Amorites were well known for sacrificing their children to their gods. As to why Yahweh had the Israelites kill the children of the Amorites too i could not give you a great answer other than when you grow up being raised by the people who killed/murdered your mother and father you might reject the religion of your NEW parents. That being said Yahweh for whatever reason believed the religion of Yahweh was important for eternal happiness. People who grow up in bad homes are known to resent their parents and their parent's beliefs. When these children and babies were killed they went to heaven because they were never given the chance to reject the supposed good religion of Yahweh.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 20:50 #272958
Quoting hachit
yes, here is why. God loves humans, however he cannot be in the present ofor sin. The punishment of sin is death. Murder implys hate. This paradox is probably were your idea came from.


So killing without cause when god can cure as well as kill, is not murder to you. This shows how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.

If god loved humans, as you say, he would cure instead of kill or murder. Right?

As to his not being in the presence of sin, did he turn his head when he told Satan to do evil and sins against Job's children and friends?

You might want to read Job 3;2 where god admits to being a sinner himself when he sais that Satan moved him to do harm without a just cause.

If the punishment for sin is death, the god is dead. Right?

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 20:53 #272960
Quoting S
Such as all of the religious nonsense. All of it.


IOW, you are too uneducated to know what you are talking about.

That is why you cannot articulate examples of what you are talking about.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 20:55 #272962
Quoting CaZaNOx
Now I think the entire introduced concept of guilt by association is problematic.


A good point.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 20:59 #272963
Quoting hachit
The problem here is you don't know your angelology. Angles have no will of there own, that speak nothing except what God wants them to say.


??

If angels have no free will, how is it that Satan and, they say, a third of the angels rebelled against god?

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 21:07 #272965
Quoting James Statter
When did Yahweh torture innocent babies in the bible?


Read the story of King David's babies death by torture for 7 days before god finally murdered it.

Read of the murders of the first born of Egypt or of the drowning of all the innocent babies and children in Noah's flood.

Tell us after that reading why god kills instead of cures those he believes afflicted with evil.

We are all children of god, according to scriptures and we are to emulate god.

What would you do if you had god's power? Would you kill or would you cure. Remember that Jesus said he came to cure the afflicted and did not come for those who did not need his mentoring.

Regards
DL

RegularGuy April 05, 2019 at 21:32 #272971
I am a Christian in that I believe Christ was enlightened and was a truly moral person. I do not take the Bible to be the infallible “Word of God”. It’s stories are indeed myths with lessons to be learned. Some are good myths. Some are just asinine.

I believe in a higher consciousness that created the universe, and this is what I call “God”. I cannot fathom how inanimate matter collects itself and organizes itself so that it can become self-aware without some kind of divine guidance. I have yet to hear a convincing argument how this would be possible as an accident of nature. We are all “gods” in that we are all conscious, and I believe consciousness is of a spiritual nature, being so unexplainable and mysterious. It seems to me our consciousness was purposefully created by a higher consciousness. I find this to be an abductive inference for the existence of God’s consciousness. I find it to be a better inference than that matter accidentally collected and organized itself into conscious beings.
James Statter April 05, 2019 at 21:35 #272972
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

I know the story of David's son dying after 3 or 7 days (i thought it was 3 but that is besides the point). God or Jesus allows suffering and sometimes even inflicts suffering on innocent people to show more corrupt people (David) that sin is serious. David murdered a man which is what caused this. The fact that bad things happen does not make me believe the God of the Bible is not a good God. I could go on and on about why i believe this but i'm not sure it would serve a purpose in this case.

In the case of Egypt those Egyptians were slave drivers and it says it in the story. Sometimes not being given the chance to become our parent's is God's greatest gift to us. The fact that their is evil in the world is due to us having free will. I'm not a calvinist.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 21:44 #272978
[quote="James Statter;272972"]

You are not a Calvinist, nor are you a moral person.

That is why you do not think a god who punishes the innocent instead of the guilty, including torturing and murdering them, is evil when he obviously is.

That is also why you did not answer my last question.

Thanks for showing all here how your beliefs have corrupted your morals.

Christians are always spouting off about god giving us free will, and here you are saying that god ignoring our free will, that would not want us to be murdered or tortured, is quite ok.

Regards
DL


James Statter April 05, 2019 at 21:47 #272979
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

i disagree. Don't act like anything i said was going to change your opinion anyway. Its your god against my god. Your a gnostic and i consider myself a christian. We'll just have to see what happens after we die.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 21:50 #272980
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
I am a Christian in that I believe Christ was enlightened and was a truly moral person.


That being the case, would you like to argue for Jesus and his morals against me as I do not see Jesus as very moral at all.

Just not to blind side you, I will tell you that I particularly dislike his no divorce for women and his substitutional punishment policies.

I have more but those will either scare you away, as it does most Christians or, hopefully, you will engage. Can you take the truth?

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 21:52 #272981
Quoting James Statter
Don't act like anything i said was going to change your opinion anyway.


I can be moved by good apologetics but you did not provide any.

Hell, you cannot even answer straight questions.

Regards
DL
James Statter April 05, 2019 at 21:53 #272982
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

"That being the case, would you like to argue for Jesus and his morals against me as I do not see Jesus as very moral at all.

Just not to blind side you, I will tell you that I particularly dislike his no divorce for women and his substitutional punishment policies.

I have more but those will either scare you away, as it does most Christians or, hopefully, you will engage. Can you take the truth?" -Gnostic Christian Bishop

Please enlighten us because the Bible according to you is complete crap. Do you have a website so that i can learn all about Gnostism?

James Statter April 05, 2019 at 21:54 #272983
*Gnosticism
James Statter April 05, 2019 at 21:57 #272985
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

"I can be moved by good apologetics but you did not provide any.

Hell, you cannot even answer straight questions.

Regards
DL " -Gnostic Christian Bishop"

That might be true it might not be true. I've got stuff to do. Get angry Don't get angry i really don't care.

RegularGuy April 05, 2019 at 22:05 #272987
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop I am not familiar with those passages. However, one must remember he was a Jewish man living in the first century. “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” “Love your neighbor as yourself.” “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” “The meek shall inherit the earth.”

This was way more moral than his local contemporaries.
hachit April 05, 2019 at 22:49 #272992
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop
About the angels
will of there own and no free will are different. In fact the one thing that separates an angel from a demon is the free will. Angles surrender to Gods will thus having no will of there own


So killing without cause when god can cure as well as kill, is not murder to you. This shows how your beliefs have corrupted your moral sense.


Of course it has, all our morals are corrupt by are belive for ""good" or "evil",

Secondly all I'm saying is there's a difference between murder and killing. All murder is killing but not all killing is murder. The one qualifying thing that makes a killing murder is hate, a solders arn't murders because they hold nothing against the enemy. (Note there are times it is murder but it was because hate was involved).

As to his not being in the presence of sin, did he turn his head when he told Satan to do evil and sins against Job's children and friends?

You might want to read Job 3;2 where god admits to being a sinner himself when he sais that Satan moved him to do harm without a just cause.


I have no clue what your talking about, in the verse you quote literally it says "he said: " an the verse before it is
After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth
So the "He" is clear Job.

Also God has many ways to communicate, we don't know how they communicated.

If the punishment for sin is death, the god is dead. Right?


As I said "In christian theology sin is defined as to disobey God. "
He keeps his promises or as far as we know the promises are left open ended (so room for doubt but not broken).

So out side of that it is a little hard to disobey yourself.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:22 #273011
Quoting James Statter
Please enlighten us because the Bible according to you is complete crap. Do you have a website so that i can learn all about Gnostism?


I am here for any questions.

The bible is quite a value to me, but not the way you read it.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
? Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:24 #273012
Quoting James Statter
i really don't care.


I Know.

You do not live by the Golden Rule or follow the moral dictates of Christianity.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:26 #273014
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
“The meek shall inherit the earth.”

This was way more moral than his local contemporaries.


Not really as it goes against natural law, which says the fittest will inherit the earth.

Did you have your children, an assumption I make that you have some, to have them be the fittest or the meekest?

Further, the Golden Rule was around for thousands of years before Jesus was even born.

Regards
DL
RegularGuy April 05, 2019 at 23:34 #273015
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop I take “meek” to mean “gentle”. It takes a fit father to be gentle with his children, especially when they’re young.

If you ask me, the world could use more gentleness. It goes well with living in a community. I would rather my boys be gentle than brutal and unkind. Then they will have a better chance of finding a caring and empathetic wife. These are characteristics that society could use more of, in my view.

That said, I haven’t exactly lived up to my ideals. I’m a product of my environment, which is to say, a brutal society.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:42 #273016
Quoting hachit
About the angels
will of there own and no free will are different.


Try your idiocy on the young and stupid with both your distortion of meaning here and in god killing or murdering.

Quoting hachit
Of course it has,


Thanks for admitting to having corrupt morals, but don't try to put that condition on all of us, especially me. Morals are my specialty.

Quoting hachit
Secondly all I'm saying is there's a difference between murder and killing


Not to the dead one.

Quoting hachit
I have no clue what your talking about, in the verse you quote literally it says "he said: " an the verse before it is


My bad. The content should have given you a hint that I chose the wrong verse.

Job 2; 3 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.'

If god cannot abide or be around sin, he sure shows the opposite and you should really stop trying to speak for god, with lies.

Quoting hachit
Also God has many ways to communicate, we don't know how they communicated.


In other words, you are saying you are a liar and do not know how god communicates.

Quoting hachit
As I said "In christian theology sin is defined as to disobey God. "


That is another lie. It is defined as missing the mark.

If all you are going to do is lie and B.S. to me, best to ignore me.

That or keep going so that I can make people se3e the lying fool you are.

Regards
DL



RegularGuy April 05, 2019 at 23:45 #273017
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Morals are my specialty.


I didn’t get that impression from the way you speak to hachit, who doesn’t seem to have a mean bone in his body.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:51 #273018
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
I take “meek” to mean “gentle


The gentlest is not the fittest.

You want a loving child. So do I.
Love is our default setting, in terms of evolution, when we are children and babies.

Try to recognize that our love biases, when we create them, automatically form a hate biases against anything that would jeopardize that which is loved.

We, as we get older and find a need for resources, compete for them and the most gentle tend to lose at competitions. How then do you see a way for the gentle to inherit the earth when it is the rich and non-gentle who are inheriting most of the resources on earth?

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 05, 2019 at 23:55 #273021
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
I didn’t get that impression from the way you speak to hachit, who doesn’t seem to have a mean bone in his body.


Accept my invite to debate morals and see what you think.

I know how I am, an how I think I have to be to deal with belligerent and obtuse religious posters with poor moral as shown by our homophobic ands misogynous friend.

I use tough love when I have to if I am to continue living by the Golden Rule as well as this quote.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL
RegularGuy April 05, 2019 at 23:56 #273023
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
We, as we get older and find a need for resources, compete for them and the most gentle tend to lose at competitions. How then do you see a way for the gentle to inherit the earth when it is the rich and non-gentle who are inheriting most of the resources on earth?


Have you ever had a job? It’s mostly cooperation with little competition. Living in a community takes WAY more cooperation than competition.

It is the rich and non-gentle who are the most destructive. That doesn’t bode well for the future of humanity, seeing as how they also have the power.

Take “the meek shall inherit the earth” to be a normative statement instead of a descriptive statement. That’s how it should be read.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 00:01 #273024
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
Have you ever had a job? It’s mostly cooperation with little competition.


Once your gain it, sure, but you competed against other in the company for advancement. Right?

Have you ever gotten a job without competing --- somehow --- for it?
Not G D likely.

You and I are animals first and foremost and subject to evolution just as all animals are.

Regards
DL
RegularGuy April 06, 2019 at 00:11 #273029
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
Once your gain it, sure, but you competed against other in the company for advancement. Right?


Once you’re in a role you have to cooperate, otherwise the company won’t function. You’re not so much competing for advancement as applying for a position. The applicants have to cooperate with the hirer and with the rules and regulations of the company in order to be considered. It is usually not the unkind and brutal who advance in a company. The person who brings value to the company through working well within the company (cooperation) gets to advance. Although there are some industrial psychopaths who advance, but they tend to harm the company’s well-being.

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
You and I are animals first and foremost and subject to evolution just as all animals are.


We are social animals living in communities. We’re not lone tigers in the jungle.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 00:42 #273036
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
We are social animals living in communities. We’re not lone tigers in the jungle.


That is irrelevant to our evolution.

You are only looking at half the situation and ignoring the other half.

Sure you cooperate with your fellow employees, but you are also competing against your peers so the boss will notice you and advance you before the others.

If you are that (not quite honest) or just looking at the one aspect going on as you work away, it is no wonder you are staying away from moral discussions.

This might help you open your narrow thinking. What I wish to show particularly is in the first few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

hachit April 06, 2019 at 00:51 #273038
If all you are going to do is lie and B.S. to me, best to ignore me.

That or keep going so that I can make people se3e the lying fool you are.


I probably should ignore you, because it is so obvious to me you are treating me like a straw man. (The straw man fallacy). It clear to me because you don't pay any attention to my word choice, wich I am very careful about.

If you think this is pointless stop reading here. Because I have never told a lie, you simply rote me off by now.

Try your idiocy on the young and stupid with both your distortion of meaning here and in god killing or murdering.


You asked the following
If angels have no free will, how is it that Satan and, they say, a third of the angels rebelled against god?


Thanks for admitting to having corrupt morals, but don't try to put that condition on all of us, especially me. Morals are my specialty.


All are morals come from somewhere is all I'm saying. Who is to say wich is right? Nether of us.

Not to the dead one.

Ok let's assume heaven exists for a moment, let's also assume that your 100% guaranteed to go there. What is the point of preserving life beond
1. Saving others
2. Improvement

Now let's say you aren't going to go to heaven. Well living is simply delaying the inevitable, but I could see why it would be a big deal then.

My bad. The content should have given you a hint that I chose the wrong verse.


Yes I knew. I was just unsure on the how.

In other words, you are saying you are a liar and do not know how god communicates.


No, I'm saying God has many ways to communicate directly or indirectly (because of the sin thing). There is no way we know how God communicated with saten.

That is another lie. It is defined as missing the mark.


Use my prifrased version, here it the actual one if you looked it up yourself.

"an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.'
Possibility April 06, 2019 at 04:06 #273048
Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
The gentlest is not the fittest...How then do you see a way for the gentle to inherit the earth when it is the rich and non-gentle who are inheriting most of the resources on earth?


The Greek word translated as ‘meek’ does not have the same meaning as the word commonly in use today. What praos means is more along the lines of self-control: a balance between capacity and application. One who is meek is aware of their own strength and capability, but does not need to use it simply because they can. They choose cooperation over coercion, and see a fulfilment of their own potential in helping others to fulfill theirs, rather than in some false ideal of absolute power, independence and accolade.

‘Inheriting the earth’ is also not the same as seizing its resources. The rich and non-gentle will only succeed in destroying the earth - all they will inherit is a wasteland. The meek at least have the opportunity to inherit a rich and resourceful universe by working together - perhaps once all the rich and non-gentle have destroyed each other...

Quoting Gnostic Christian Bishop
You and I are animals first and foremost and subject to evolution just as all animals are.


You and I are animals, yes - but your evaluation of this as ‘first and foremost’ is based on a limited understanding of your own potential. If you think that we are subject to evolution, that our capacity for abstract thought, for words and actions other than those ruled by instinct serves no purpose except to follow instinct, then I can only conclude that you have shackled your own intelligence to a limited physical existence. Such a waste.
Tom Palmer April 06, 2019 at 04:07 #273049
You're expressing exactly what I am thinking, Gnostic Christian Bishop. I find all the praise to God hard to take when there are so many terrible things that happen in the world. I could accept it, if it was moderate suffering, just something to test our mettle, but things like a person getting third degree burns over eighty per cent of his or her body, or the Nazis seeing how many times they could break the leg of a Jewish child and reset it stick in my craw. And this kind of horror is commonplace. A person dies in agony when he or she has cancer. I've heard that somehow this suffering gives us free will, but I am at a loss to see how. If anything, it terrorizes us into prostrating ourselves before God. There is no free will in that. Also, there is the question of hell. What kind of God would sentence someone to burn for all eternity? That sounds like the ultimate sadism to me. But God had to create hell so we could have "free choice". Go figure. Even though I am terrified of God, I cannot bring myself to worship him or her.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 15:00 #273165
Quoting hachit
Use my prifrased version, here it the actual one if you looked it up yourself.

"an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.'


I see no chapter or verse.

The rest of what you put ignored Job 2;3 and god admitting to be an evil sinner. Why?

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 15:06 #273166
Quoting Possibility
The Greek word translated as ‘meek’ does not have the same meaning as the word commonly in use today. What praos means is more along the lines of self-control:


I will go with the selection of the compilers of the bible and not yours.

Quoting Possibility
I can only conclude that you have shackled your own intelligence to a limited physical existence. Such a waste.


We do not see physical existence the same way. But you ignore that all you are is created by your ind which creates your consciousness and that is all that you are, unless you have gone into intellectual dissonance by belief in the supernatural.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 15:10 #273167
Quoting Tom Palmer
Go figure. Even though I am terrified of God, I cannot bring myself to worship him or her.


Thanks for the kudos.

To what I quoted.

No one with a decent moral sense would worship the god described in scriptures, be he the Yahweh god or the Trinity combo Jesus. The ancient standard are garbage by todays standards.

Why do you fear an imaginary construct?

Regards
DL
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 15:31 #273171
Please help me to understand your terminology--specifically how you differentiate between "Christian" and "Gnostic Christian" and how one of these would believe in an "evil God" while the other doesn't, yet they're both called "Christian".
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 06, 2019 at 15:54 #273178
Quoting whollyrolling
Please help me to understand your terminology--specifically how you differentiate between "Christian" and "Gnostic Christian" and how one of these would believe in an "evil God" while the other doesn't, yet they're both called "Christian".


I will be happy to oblige after you opine on the O.P.

I need to see how you think before deciding on the best answer for you.

Regards
DL
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 16:12 #273189
Alright, well now I looked up "Gnostic", and it defies at least the English-translated writings of "Christianity", so I'm led to conclude that "Gnostic Christianity" is a contradiction of terms. I suppose my opinion would now be that your original post contains a contradiction of terms and still needs clarification. You can't expect me to have an opinion about something that is completely unclear.

If Gnosticism suggests that matter is bad and spirit is good, but Christianity states that there are bad spirits and that all God's creation is good, there's a contradiction. If Gnosticism suggests that God is unknowable, but Christianity suggests that each individual can have knowledge of and a relationship with God, there's a contradiction. If Gnosticism suggests the "Creator" is a lesser being and Christianity suggests the "Creator" was the "supreme being", there's a contradiction. If Gnosticism suggests there's no "sin" only "ignorance", but Christianity suggests there's "sin", there's a contradiction. If Gnosticism suggests "knowledge" leads to salvation, but Christianity suggests only "Jesus" leads to salvation, there's a contradiction.
Anthony April 06, 2019 at 16:14 #273193
One of the more interesting things about the Gnostic hermeneutic is what it meant when Adam and Eve discovered they were naked. Having eaten from the tree of Good and Evil, they subsequently understood they were slaves and that slavery was evil; of course before this they thought they were in paradise. Slaves usually weren't allowed any raiment.

As to Stockholm syndrome. Yes, I believe its true Abrhamic religion is significantly seminal to this mental disease. In particular, the type of Christians that have no philosophical or theological backing to their "beliefs," tend to be the type that thinks politics (and otherwise worldly, secularism) and economics can in any way inform religion without turning it evil.
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 16:17 #273195
Wouldn't "Gnostic Christianity" be better labeled as "Gnostic Anti-Gnosticism", or perhaps "Anti-Christian Christianity"?
curiousnewbie April 06, 2019 at 16:19 #273197
Admittedly I am new to the site, so perhaps I don't correctly understand what topics come under the purview of the philosophy forum, but I fail to see how your question is a philosophical one. It seems like the type of question that would be asked on yahoo answers. I don't say this because I am personally offended-because I'm not-I say this because I have noticed that some of the topics in the forums are really just people wanting a soap box for their political views.
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 16:25 #273203
Reply to curiousnewbie

Your comment seems to be intended more as offensive than offended, in a passive aggressive sort of way. I'd like to know what you think "philosophers" have been doing for the past few millennia--if one strips away their terminology. Traditionally, philosophy has been a Yahoo chat room for the children of the wealthy.
Anthony April 06, 2019 at 16:28 #273206
Reply to curiousnewbie Indeed it would make more sense if it were a site to submit monographs to, and get feedback. People on here will complain if your post is too long. There's a lot of one liners...not very philosophical. A philosopher should suffer from logorrhea as a matter of course. Also, some want a handle or not to have to interpret what you're saying. When was the last time you read the work of a philosopher and easily understood all that was expressed? A philosopher definitely has a strong idiosyncratic side to him. Most here are scholars by comparison; topics center on cognitive science and materialism, which leaves little room for original thought, (cognitive) being so based on AI and neuroscience. Reading classical philosophy is, at times, more like reading poetry or mythology than anything in modern media, to be sure. The times are exceedingly material monistic, literal and prosaic; all you can do is look up facts, or rearrange what is already known, not arrive at truth through reason, that is from thought alone.
curiousnewbie April 06, 2019 at 16:32 #273210
The original post seems to just be a psychoanalysis of Christians, and not really intended for actual philosophical discussion but rather to insult them. But even if it was not intended to offend, I still don't see how it's a philosophical question.
CaZaNOx April 06, 2019 at 16:40 #273216
Reply to curiousnewbie unfortunatley this seems to be the case for some posts here. But yeah it is how it is. Afterall you don't have to reply.
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 16:43 #273217
Reply to curiousnewbie

I'm still waiting for the OP to define "Gnostic Christianity" for me.
curiousnewbie April 06, 2019 at 16:49 #273220
Reply to whollyrolling When I mentioned yahoo answers, I meant that in terms of the quality of the post. Yahoo answers in the early days was a site where people could ask engaging questions, and it later turned into a site where people would ask 'why do all X voters have bad breath/are ugly etc?'.
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 17:07 #273228
Reply to curiousnewbie

Classical philosophy is not much more refined than Yahoo Answers.
Anthony April 06, 2019 at 17:28 #273232
Quoting Possibility
If you think that we are subject to evolution, that our capacity for abstract thought, for words and actions other than those ruled by instinct serves no purpose except to follow instinct, then I can only conclude that you have shackled your own intelligence to a limited physical existence.

In what way, do you propose, instinct isn't indomitable? Instinct does rule, save for perhaps Buddhas, or otherwise individuals who know how to balance Dionysus with Apollo; actually, modernity, with its increasingly rigid human order lain over the only one, is pissing instinct off quite significantly. No matter if it be secular rationalism or residue of mythological systems (religion), humans construct aggregations of beliefs to help them deny death or inevitability they don't like The most advanced humans don't say death is a disease and look to promissory materialism for an answer, or think we will move to Mars (no doubt it could be a planet of war in the future if humans move there), they figure out how to make a wreath around themselves with it and contemplate death often. Convenience and comfort also stand in the way of alignment with evolution and instinct.

Look at Down syndrome. Is it a flaw of evolution? Should it be gene edited out of existence, if possible? Wouldn't this be admitting we don't like Down syndrome on some level, that humans have become obsessed with efficiency and competence over all else. Why is it for humans to decide? For those who think times are patently getting better, there's a serious ethical dilemma in these sorts of issues. Science can be elegantly savage, which is a message for all people positing it has only helped. In exclusively admitting physical evidence/data and cognitive behaviorism (calling to mind the most ridiculous images like calculable emotion, 3+2=envy), the domain of virtue or morality (belonging to idealism, or proper philosophy/reason), isn't true for scientists. There's no way of proving people with DS aren't aliens or deities behaving the way they do for some bizarre fathomless reason, same with animals. An uncanny image, yet it is so.

Same with evolution. Humans are totally subject to evolution along with all else on Earth. Eventually humanists and their technics will regret tampering with the laws of nature, of this I have little doubt. It is a question to philosophy why this species thinks it is exempt from what other species are exposed to, as though men are gods.

It's hard divining how poisoned we are still from leaded gasoline, or to know if 5G technology will worsen glioblastomas. Pollution and war, or their absence, are indexes of human ability to to either accommodate nature/instinct or ignore it (someone will think war is instinct, though actually human nature is metacognition, it being what we have other animals don't; hesitation is also human nature/instinct). There are parallels of man's destructive repetitions in his emotion, which are a long way to being addressed...avarice, envy, anger, hate, frigidity...ok, here goes since I've always seen the truth in this...gluttony, sloth, pride, and lust (if not emotion, then delusion...delusion tends to be an blanket term, though). Acute neuroses are caused by cognitive behaviorism/materialism, being derived from scientist's irrational perversion over ignoring anything without evidence (honesty needs to take a good hard look at how big of a problem this is, actually; a thread might be forthcoming). Instinct doesn't like it there are those who think the primary process resembles AI or calculation in any way. To the extent h. sapiens live in a virtual reality, they don't live in the truth.
hachit April 06, 2019 at 21:15 #273312
I see no chapter or verse.

I don't need one, it came out of the dictionary.

The rest of what you put ignored Job 2;3 and god admitting to be an evil sinner. Why?


Because I have no clue what your talking about. What version did you read.
1. God was praising Job
2. "shuns evil."
3. Apparently in the verse satin was telling God to "incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.". Then God refuse (and yes I know he let's satin. Yes I see how you can make an argument around that).
,
whollyrolling April 06, 2019 at 21:26 #273318
Reply to Anthony

The moment you exempted "Buddhas" from instinct, whatever that means, you made the rest of your monologue just a bunch of blah blah garbage most people would presume is written from a place of incompetence.
Anthony April 06, 2019 at 21:30 #273320
Reply to whollyrolling I see. Not biting, mate. Though somehow, I don't know that my post is as empty of content as your response to it. If it's garbage, can you elaborate on that, or...

Nevermind. After looking at your other comments, it's clear you're a sadist. Good luck.
Maureen April 07, 2019 at 01:06 #273402
There are atheists and theists who admit that they do not know if God exists, as well as those who say that God absolutely does or does not exist, no questions asked. I believe that the latter is entirely stubborn and stupid due to the fact that they are not even willing to consider the possibility that God may or may not exist, as opposed to holding fast to one end of the spectrum when they don't even actually know the truth.
Tom Palmer April 07, 2019 at 02:31 #273421
I believe in an imaginary construct because I am enough of a pessimist to believe there is a God that would send us to hell for thought crimes. It's not a rational belief, but it makes perfect sense to believe that the God who gives us bone cancer would send us to hell.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 07, 2019 at 14:03 #273577
Quoting hachit
Then God refuse


If god would have refused, then he would not have admitted to being move to do harm without a just cause.
Your twisting the words just shows your lack of reading comprehension.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 07, 2019 at 14:06 #273579
Quoting Maureen
when they don't even actually know the truth.


It is better for theists to admit they do not know if god exists instead of lying about it.

Regards
DL
christian2017 April 07, 2019 at 14:38 #273604
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop Reply to Tom Palmer

Some christians believe that god greatly rewards those who are innocent and suffer for their innocence. Jesus for example is the king of the universe and is worshiped by many according to christians. Not all christians believe that heaven is equal for all christians. Jesus said that there are many mansions in his "house" and some interpret that to mean that some people are more rewarded than others for their conduct here on this earth. I know many people who do to what they believe was God's discipline (US marines are disciplined) have great character.

Tom Palmer April 07, 2019 at 17:47 #273715
That's a comforting thought, but I think God got carried away dishing out the suffering.
christian2017 April 07, 2019 at 21:46 #273839
Reply to Tom Palmer

"That's a comforting thought, but I think God got carried away dishing out the suffering. "

i wish i could say your wrong but at this point in my life i don't have alot of evidence to try to show you otherwise.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 12:07 #274160
Quoting christian2017
Some christians believe


Christian beliefs are all over the map and some are even as foolish as believing in the supernatural.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 12:09 #274161
Quoting Tom Palmer
That's a comforting thought, but I think God got carried away dishing out the suffering.


Indeed, to the point of genocide and infanticide of his own son.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 12:11 #274162
Quoting christian2017
i wish i could say your wrong but at this point in my life i don't have alot of evidence to try to show you otherwise.


That and you would have to scrap most of the bible to show the opposite.

What do you find endearing in a god who is infanticide and uses genocide?
What compels you to ignore those traits or see them as somehow good?

Regards
DL
christian2017 April 08, 2019 at 14:04 #274195
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

This is what i said earlier and yes there are alot of Christian denominations and they are in many cases all over the map.

"Some christians believe that god greatly rewards those who are innocent and suffer for their innocence. Jesus for example is the king of the universe and is worshiped by many according to christians. Not all christians believe that heaven is equal for all christians. Jesus said that there are many mansions in his "house" and some interpret that to mean that some people are more rewarded than others for their conduct here on this earth. I know many people who do to what they believe was God's discipline (US marines are disciplined) have great character. "

I believe alot of Christians fall into my category. I could be wrong. As to the genocide, i believe a baby born into a wicked family (Amorites sacrificed there own children to their gods) is better off dying and going to heaven then being raised to be wicked himself. As you can tell its been millienia since the Christian God has advocated genocide. I felt that should be added to this conversation. Abortion is a bad thing in my opinion but there are worse things than dying early and going to heaven.

Correct me if i'm wrong but don't Gnostic's believe in the supernatural?
S April 08, 2019 at 14:58 #274214
Quoting whollyrolling
I'm still waiting for the OP to define "Gnostic Christianity" for me.


Sounds like it's Christianity as interpreted by an atheist with attachment issues.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 17:32 #274270
Quoting christian2017
Correct me if i'm wrong but don't Gnostic's believe in the supernatural?


No. We hold no supernatural beliefs and that may be why we venerate life while you venerate a god who takes it.

Strange that you seem to prefer a god who kills instead of a god who cures instead of killing. You might wonder why while you forgive him for using genocide instead of curing the afflicted the way Jesus said he came to do.

That god of yours sure flip flops in his morality. It is almost like two different gods instead of the trinity idiocy eh?

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 17:35 #274274
Quoting whollyrolling
I'm still waiting for the OP to define "Gnostic Christianity" for me.


It is a religion of esoteric ecumenists who do not hold any supernatural beliefs and who seek a god, as defined as the best rules and laws to live by.

We, like Buddhists and Karaite Jews put god below man, as he should be, given that all the gods are human inventions.

Regards
DL
whollyrolling April 08, 2019 at 17:48 #274283
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

So what you're effectively saying is that it isn't Christianity and fits nowhere within or alongside Christianity. So then I'm left wondering why you'd label yourself with a blatant contradiction of terms other than to troll people or to self-deprecate.

Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 17:53 #274286
Quoting whollyrolling
So what you're effectively saying is that it isn't Christianity and fits nowhere within or alongside Christianity.


That should be obvious given that we have always branded Yahweh as a vile demiurge.

Quoting whollyrolling
So then I'm left wondering why you'd label yourself with a blatant contradiction of terms other than to troll people or to self-deprecate.


Tradition, for one, and it opens the door for me to remind the uninformed, like you, that Christianity is a made up religion that began from Chrestianity that was a lot more intelligent than what Christianity became.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAt-PAkgqls

Regards
DL

whollyrolling April 08, 2019 at 18:06 #274290
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

If I was uninformed then you wouldn't be "reminding" me, you'd be "informing" me. I guess this is what you do, you go look on the internet for obscure religious cults very few people know or care about, create a contradiction-of-terms-troll-nickname and "remind" us all of the existence one of likely six thousand forgotten renditions of a forgotten pagan sun god religion, which were all of course based on forgotten religions that predate them. Interesting.
whollyrolling April 08, 2019 at 18:10 #274292
Then you cut and paste 3-7 word portions of a sentence and place them out of context as a stand-alone phrase in order to inject your irrelevant and unrelated comments into the thread.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 08, 2019 at 18:14 #274295
Thanks for the useless replies.

Regards
DL
S April 08, 2019 at 18:21 #274296
Quoting whollyrolling
If I was uninformed then you wouldn't be "reminding" me, you'd be "informing" me. I guess this is what you do, you go look on the internet for obscure religious cults very few people know or care about, create a contradiction-of-terms-troll-nickname and "remind" us all of the existence one of likely six thousand forgotten renditions of a forgotten pagan sun god religion, which were all of course based on forgotten religions that predate them. Interesting.


Bullseye! :grin:
christian2017 April 08, 2019 at 22:34 #274430
Reply to Gnostic Christian Bishop

i feel i explained my take on this in a previous post. Perhaps we can argue about the same thing some other day.
Gnostic Christian Bishop April 10, 2019 at 11:39 #275008
Quoting christian2017
i feel i explained my take on this in a previous post. Perhaps we can argue about the same thing some other day.


Poorly, but as you wish.

Regards
DL