Unconditional love.
I've been taking a more feminist outlook on society, and there's nothing out in society that compares to the love a mother grants to her herd or sheeple.
Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter.
I'm almost a 30 year old man living with his mother, and I wake up every morning feeling like a kid with his mother. Usually, by my age siblings leave the nest and are on their own; but, I'm grown more appreciative and loving towards my mother. It seems like I will never leave her.
But, what do you call this? Maturity? Disability? Love? Dependency disorder?
My father frowns on the whole situation. He thinks I have passed the age of leaving the nest and will always stay with my mom.
But, you know what? Fuck him. He abandoned his fiduciary duty when I was 15, when we moved to another country. So, he can go have a fig or something.
But, now I realize that I never want to leave my mothers side. It's as if I fully realize why she cares for me so much. It's because her love is unconditional. No strings attached.
Having read a little of feminist philosophy, this would be called "care". And, you know what? There ain't fuckin enough of that in this world.
People are needy and will eat up all the care in this world; so, it's a limited resource, and now I understand why I don't care about my neighbor's son as if he were my own. Because care is a limited resource and it doesn't self-generate.
And, this is where I understand the relationship between compassion and care. Compassion must be cultivated to sustain care; but, to be honest, it's a tiring process. You have to shut out the negativity of the world, and view it in a positive light to cultivate compassion.
So, what I'm getting at is that the mantra of life of a Buddhist is almost in some ways similar to the unconditional love a mother endows unto her son or daughter. They are very similar almost identical.
Thoughts?
Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter.
I'm almost a 30 year old man living with his mother, and I wake up every morning feeling like a kid with his mother. Usually, by my age siblings leave the nest and are on their own; but, I'm grown more appreciative and loving towards my mother. It seems like I will never leave her.
But, what do you call this? Maturity? Disability? Love? Dependency disorder?
My father frowns on the whole situation. He thinks I have passed the age of leaving the nest and will always stay with my mom.
But, you know what? Fuck him. He abandoned his fiduciary duty when I was 15, when we moved to another country. So, he can go have a fig or something.
But, now I realize that I never want to leave my mothers side. It's as if I fully realize why she cares for me so much. It's because her love is unconditional. No strings attached.
Having read a little of feminist philosophy, this would be called "care". And, you know what? There ain't fuckin enough of that in this world.
People are needy and will eat up all the care in this world; so, it's a limited resource, and now I understand why I don't care about my neighbor's son as if he were my own. Because care is a limited resource and it doesn't self-generate.
And, this is where I understand the relationship between compassion and care. Compassion must be cultivated to sustain care; but, to be honest, it's a tiring process. You have to shut out the negativity of the world, and view it in a positive light to cultivate compassion.
So, what I'm getting at is that the mantra of life of a Buddhist is almost in some ways similar to the unconditional love a mother endows unto her son or daughter. They are very similar almost identical.
Thoughts?
Comments (38)
It seems to me that 'love' is about supporting someone to develop and grow. Is your mum facilitating such development?
I don't care that you are 30 and live with your mother. My youngest child, 29, lives at home with my wife and me and we're happy to have him here.
But - to call that feminism is a long, insulting stretch.
Also, men can't be feminists, he said provocatively.
I almost feel militant and hostile towards the Western conception of what the family/atomic unit ought to look like. Yes, it exists in the back of my mind that I ought to be more independent and a self-sufficient individual by my age and various people would go to the extreme and say that I have a dependency disorder (say's *fuck you* under his nose.)
But, none of that matters because of the unconditional love my mother grants me.
Nel Noddings, believes in what is called ethics of care. In my limited understanding of this philosophy, Carol Gilligan's duty of care is supplanted with an ethics of care not motivated out of duty; but, love. I might have got some of that mixed up, it's been a while since I read Gilligan.
Anyone, please correct me on this.
Quoting bert1
Surely she is. But, how can one ever asses that? And, this is where I say that supporting someone can be done by a significant other; but, doesn't attain the level or degree of care and support one receives from one's mother in the form of unconditional love.
You might note that I have a distorted vision of what constitutes real from illusory love; but, I feel confident that what I have said is all motivated out of preserving the care and love my mother presents to me, and wish that our situation doesn't change (and here you can say I have developed a dependency disorder); but, so what, I respond!
More power to you T Clark. There's a strange concept that stinks of male chauvinism when someone says *at your age you should...*, to which I respond with no commentary. A free country I suppose one can say; but, I'm going a little deeper here.
Quoting T Clark
Well, you're free to criticize me for saying this; but, mothers are better at maintaining and keeping the family together rather than men. As long as the family unit isn't strictly patriarchal.
You will live your life as you see fit, of course, and you are entitled to do that.
At least in southern Italian families just a few generations back it was not unusual for one son to remain at home with his mother, for her benefit (assuming the father had died).
My guess is that over the eons, many families have remained together into the adulthood of their children and even grandchildren. The famous "extended family". So, historically there is nothing particularly unusual about you remaining at home with your mother.
On the other hand, we don't live in a traditional culture. American or European culture seems to support the notion that children should leave home, at some point, and make their own way in the world. There is nothing inordinately superior about this plan over a traditional plan, but it's the one that we (mostly) live with.
If there is a fly in your ointment it would be this: is the unconditional love your mother gives to you preparing you to give it to others? Unconditional love (as I understand it, anyway) takes practice. We have to build our capacity to give unconditional love, through experiences that may sometimes be painful.
The crude analogy would be the capacity to run a marathon. Usually we have to work up to running for 26 miles; we have to work fairly hard if we plan on finishing close to the front. It will be unpleasant at times; sometimes quite unpleasant.
Unconditional love and feminism seem like an unfortunate combination of ingredients for a good cocktail. Unconditional love and Christ go well together, and fear and loathing of the nuclear family is a good base for a feminist intoxicant.
I'd like to phrase this issue from the POV of a female.
Is a male desireable or evolutionarily "fit" if he is to live with his mother after the age of adolescence? If not, then what is he treated as?
That’s an interesting point. Is life only about receiving love? Is Wallow’s mother’s love going to die with him?
I don't know. Is he? Yes? No? Maybe?
What should you do to prove your evolutionary fitness? Beat up every other guy in the neighborhood and become King of the Hill? Go hunting and kill a nice big buck, butcher it in the woods, and bring it home tied to the hood of your car? Go find a woman and drag her to your bed by her hair? Win a blue ribbon at the state fair for the biggest pumpkin? Hold up a gas station?
I'm just not sure the question of evolutionary fitness helps clarify anything here.
I'm actually going to open my old university schoolbook on game theory to answer this.
But, to a female it should be straightforward.
Hold on...
Ok. I’d like to respond to this from the genuine POV of a female and a mother.
This has absolutely nothing to do with desireability or evolutionary fitness. Is that straightforward enough for you?
If my son was still living with me at 30, it would NOT be because he doesn’t want to give up the ‘unconditional love’ that he receives from me.
I wonder what you mean by ‘unconditional love’ - because from my POV, the love I have for my children is not conditional on them living with me or being by my side. It is not conditional on them needing me to take care of them, either. I think there are many mothers who claim ‘unconditional love’ for their children, but who simply don’t want to give up feeling needed by them.
I also wonder if you love your mother unconditionally in return? How do you show your love for her, and would you continue to do so if she no longer took care of you the way that she does now? Would you take care of her in return if she needed it?
The concept of unconditional love is regularly abused by mothers and their children to mask co-dependency. I love my children unconditionally by supporting them to develop and grow well past the point where they no longer need me. As painful as that is for me to gradually but surely let go, I know that I am not so narrowly defined by my role as his mother, just as he has the potential to be so much more than just my son.
I suggest you leave feminism out of this, by the way. Your POV is so far from feminism it isn’t even funny.
:up:
Thanks for explaining that. You raised some questions, such as Quoting Possibility
All yes.
I love my mother for the fact that she loves me. The fact that it is unconditional love is even all the more welcoming.
Quoting Possibility
Fair enough, I'm not that great with feminist ideology myself to claim that I know everything about it.
Echoing some other posters here:
The arrangement you and your mother have is only seen as unconventional in some times and places, like late 20th and early 21st century USA. But throughout history and across cultures the multi-generational household is not only normal, it's necessary. I think in the US we are seeing a return to such norms. This is due to many factors, such as nursing homes are extraordinarily expensive and also few people actually want to live there. Also, childcare is amazingly expensive and don't provide the same level of nurture and familial bonding as grandparents babysitting. Not to mention, homes are becoming more expensive to buy.
Basically, if your arrangement does not infringe, and actually enables both of you to live the rest of your lives as you desire (get married, have kids, work, have a social life, pursue hobbies, etc.) and you are dedicated to caring for her in return WHEN not IF she becomes old and will need to rely on you, then everything is as it should be.
Also, unconditional love is not the same as doing everything for someone unconditionally. A parent may love a child unconditionally, but may not have the same relationship with that child depending on circumstances. If the child becomes a murderer, a drug addict, or just a horrible and mean person, the parent may still love the child just as much, but will not be able to have the same relationship with that child.
Finally, though you have been burned, unconditional love toward a child can come (or not come) from a parent of either sex. I've seen both sexes be absolutely devoted parents or totally neglectful and abusive. Though it is true that our society generally encourages nurturing behavior more in women.
Well, I just think of the fact that prison populations are predominantly male, and this gives me the impression that females are less aggressive, domineering, and violent than men are.
People get mad when I bring this up; but, it seems to be true.
That's true. It's almost impossible to tell, however, how much of that is inherent sex differences and how much social/environmental influences.
Yeah, well, I'm sort of attached to my kids as well, so I'm not sure it's a feminist thing in actuality, but more of a feminist thing stereotypically.
Quoting Wallows
The question isn't whether you should bow to societal norms for the sake of meeting expectations, but it's whether your current situation is confining or leading to greater happiness. I can tell you that my feelings of self-worth and happiness rest heavily upon my accomplishments, which to a large degree are the result of my being autonomous and fully living my own life.
I realize you're not me though. You have shared considerably on this board and have let us know of your emotional struggles, and I can't say if it makes more sense to have a strong emotional anchor like your mother in place or whether you'd fare better having at it on your own. The question you have to ask yourself is whether your current attempt to justify your living arrangement is due to laziness or fear or whether you're honestly working to self-acceptance of it because it is in fact the best course.
Since it is the case that there are some people who actually do best in a fully confined institutionalized setting, it stands to reason there will be others who will do best in arrangements others would not find ideal. Since my personal experience is that autonomy is so interrelated to happiness, my instinct is to suggest that you find as much avenue toward personal expression as possible. Then again, I really don't know if you're so constructed.
The other part of this equation is, of course, your mother, and whether she is entirely a positive force in your life or whether she is simply creating for you an overly comfortable situation that fails to adequately challenge you to greater success. That I don't know, but I do think all of this worth exploring (to the extent you haven't already) because your long term living situation and apparent limited personal goals are atypical.
It could be you've looked at the prisons and seen that most of the bad actors are male, or it could be:
Quoting Wallows
I'm just saying I looked at the same prisons you have, but my views on fathers are not quite the same as yours....
I know Wallows didn't say all of this, but instead tried to justify his living condition as just being an alternative way to live life and not be bound by contemporary norms. Then there was the whole discussion about how his life was really just a unique and pure expression of mother/child love that honored feminism and that ought not be interfered with. For the vast majority of the population, I think what he says is pretty lame and borders on the absurd, but for someone in his shoes, maybe not.
And yes, Wallows, I know you're in the room, yet I talk about you like you're not. Having folks talk about you is your favorite topic though.
Feminism is not just about females :)
Wrong again, this topic is about my mother, who loves me unconditionally. Though, yet again you try and tell me it's all about me. How tiring.
It's not tiring for you at all. You delight in this conversation about you, which is now paradoxically about you to the extent we can talk about it being not about you.
I have only expressed my unconditional love for my mother, and her's to me. Insofar then if it's about our happy relationship, and my disability, then fine, it can be about me.
It's great your mother loves you and you love her back. You ought go up and ring her neck with a big ole hug and tell her, "Mama, I 'preciate the shit out of ya!"
I do that every day, friend.
See, this thread isn't only about me then, don't you agree?
We should start a sub-thread and ask whether the thread isn't about you.
I have 2 children and would feel like I had failed in my role as a parent - to enable them to live independently and start their own families, go confidently towards their own adventures and mistakes - if they still lived with me at the ripe old age of 30.
BTW I am not judging you wallows, but giving my honest reaction to the situation you describe.
:blush:
It's hard to say anything thinking of the whole thing in the third person. We've been through hell. I wasn't always like this BTW. There was a time when I wanted to move out to Germany or some Scandinavian country, which I brought up on these forums numerous times asking how do I get an education in Germany and such.
Strangely, the phase of moving around and doing things has ended sooner for me than what would be normal or typical for a male. I see my friends traveling to exotic lands on Facebook all the time; but, I guess I'm just getting older, almost like accelerated aging. I guess suffering and struggle make a person want less or desire less rather than more from the world.
And, sure @Hanover, you've been following my threads or life, and have been an impartial witness throughout the whole venture; but, you may have noticed that I've also quieted down considerably. I don't know if this is a sign of maturity; but, I just want to have an easy and happy life with my mom.
It's the ebb and flow of interest. Everyone varies their frequency for whatever reason around here, without maintaining obsessive interest for too long a period.
Like I said, maybe you're a special case, but we all have a certain desire to just sit around the house sometimes because it's easy, but most of us realize that sitting most literally gets you nowhere. I fully expect that if you start sitting today and you really put your mind to it, you'll be in the same place tomorrow as today. Eat, sleep, maybe push the cat off your chest, change the channel, surf the net, repeat. It's not exactly living up to the capacity of your creation, but you're going to do what you're going to do regardless of what anyone says.
It seems at this point you're trying to relieve yourself of the guilt of doing nothing all day, so you tell us the tale of feminism and societal pressure and whatnot. Once you can feel good about living with mom and having her dote on her little Wallows, you can carry on a little better I guess.
It's like the quitter who feels bad about quitting so he convinces himself that quitting isn't all that bad. The problem is that it is.
You sound like my therapist who quit or changed offices, who kept on asking me whether I want to get better? I have a roof over my head, a warm bed I spend most of my time in, food in the fridge, a very loving mother, clean clothes, a decent neighborhood, a nice house, hiking trails if I ever get the urge to go outside (very rare). What more can I ask for.
See, this has been a problem that goes back to my childhood. I've never been competitive, subscribed to the self-esteem movement, that everyone is special and should be treated that way, love feminism, hate indoctrination, tolerate tradition and observe it as anyone else.
What I'm trying to say is that I kind of grew up with a silver spoon in my mouth. Yet, it has never manifested in vanity or inflated pride over nothing. Rather, a docile sense of calm and coolness with a lot of procrastination.
But, before you judge that I've never tried at anything in life, just remember that I tried the military, college, and the 9-5 life, and couldn't complete any of them. Where I ended up is here on disability, reading posts on here every day.
You might be wondering if I set myself up for this very early retirement plan with the social security disability pay and possibly growing some pot in the garage to supplant my income? Yes, I think I have. I chose the path of least resistance and it's not going all that bad if you really care for my opinion.
Quoting Wallows
No vanity or inflated pride? Really? Are you sure? I’ve no doubt that living in a closed-off world where everything and everyone revolves around you is wonderful. Wouldn’t we all like to live in that kind of world! You’ve created quite a little kingdom, haven’t you? No wonder you have no interest in getting better. Where’s the incentive?
But in answering my questions, you did miss one out, so I’ll repeat it: How do you show unconditional love to your mother? Because if loving unconditionally is helping them to develop and grow as a person, I wonder if you even know who your mother is apart from what she does for you. I wonder if she even knows, or has ever allowed herself to think about it without feeling guilty.
The thing about being a mother these days is that we assume responsibility for how our children turn out - more so, I think, when the father abandons his part. There seems like so much pressure on us to try and pave the way for them and protect them from all harm - including the avoiding experiences of short term pain, loss and humiliation that actually strengthen their character in the long run. What we create in the end are children who are ill-equipped to manage the difficulties of life without their mother there to continue paving the way.
But we don’t mind. It’s one of the hardest things to do as a mother: to give up that awesome and total responsibility for the life of another. It gives us a sense of power and control, and we learn that we can hold onto that power as long as we want, because it’s also up to us to relinquish it - to give it as a gift to our children, and show them how to manage it - or to teach them that the responsibility is ours.
We teach our children to become confident and capable by gradually stepping back and saying ‘now you give it a go’, then picking them up when they fall, and saying ‘almost - try it again, but this time, try...’. But we also hurt when our children hurt, so it’s much easier on us to say ‘don’t worry, let me do it for you’. That doesn’t teach them to manage the inevitability of pain, loss or humiliation long term, but it helps us as mothers to avoid these experiences ourselves, short term.
You live the life of my cat, which is a nice life if you're a cat.
If all's hunky dory, why the therapist?
And what's up with your not knowing if your therapist quit or changed offices? Didn't feel like exploring wu happen?
Quoting Wallows
Your attempt to describe yourself as simply shiftless seems trollish, as if it's motivated by some desire to evoke annoyance by those who adhere to traditional views of responsibility and conscientiousness. As we all know, the truth is far more complex than that. You have told us you have been on some pretty heavy psychiatric medications, been diagnosed with some form of schizophrenia, and are completely disabled. For some reason you want us to believe that really you're just lazy and working the system, playing along so that you can hang out and do nothing but be fully taken care of.
Quoting Wallows
My choices are that you are (1) an evil genius or (2) suffering from mental illness? I choose #2, simply because you've told us that you've been so diagnosed.
I wallow, so I digress.
Anyway, I have a nice kingdom as you noted. But, I share my kindgdom with my mom. Did I tell you my father wants to take away that kingdom and keep it for himself? So, I out there all day thinking about how to prove to the court how he abandoned his fiduciary duty. So, no. It's not all about me. It's about us, and the pain and suffering my mother experienced as my father abused her physically and emotionally in another country, which we left to come back to home here in the USA.
Ask me anything else that fancies your mind. I have a clear conscious that I am not cradling my way to my grave on the shoulders of my mother. I hope to grow old with her and follow her to the grave when that finally is unavoidable.
I am a pig, so I digress.
A happy and content pig nonetheless.
Quoting Hanover
Well, I have no money to go and move out, am disabled as you noted aptly, and like my abode, so I'm not screaming or whining.
Quoting Hanover
All true. I am disabled. What about it?
Quoting Hanover
There is some truth to that. People come from Syria with arms or legs blown off or soldiers come back to the States with PTSD and struggle with suicidal thoughts. I have my arms, I have my legs, haven't been to war and sadly I would have loved to die on the battlefield, but I digress.
Point is, I can improve my situation by making more of an effort in my life to make more money and buy my mother a Model 3, so that she doesn't have to rely on me to drive of freeways, which she can't.
Actually, if you really want to know I was just today speaking for a costly hour with her lawyer about how we're going to pin down my father during the upcoming deposition he and my mother are going to face. I hope I devised a way to nail him on some issues (what counts as community property here and there in Poland). We're really struggling to make ends meet and are paying our lawyer on credit.
So, no. It's not all rainbows and unicorns in my world. A lot of frustration, dealing with depression, and anger is apter a description.
And yet you still won’t answer my question.
Yet, we do grow happily together.
How can it be otherwise?